waysurvivor

http://www.bible.com/answers/aspankin.html If you will follow this link, you will see that the Bible does not endorse "beating" as we have defined beating of this day. Definitions change over time, and just as meek once met teachable and now has somehow changed to mean being weak with no courage, "to beat" in biblical times meant to spank. The rod was like a reed, causing no more damage than a hand used to spank on the rear end without much force, perhaps less, and while I don't really like spanking, God taught that it was for the reason of giving a child a little pain to spare them from the larger pain that their undisciplined actions may later bring them. Children these days seem to be so much worse than they used to be, as a whole. I see people coming into the store where I work who can't even tell their kids no. If their kids whine enough, the parents give in. This leads to spoiled and undisciplined children, and that can lead to a lot of bad things. This in no way means that I endorse the wooden spoon from TWI. I think that TWI took "beating a child" out of context from the Bible and used it as an excuse to hurt children. I think the subject of spanking children will always be controversial. I was spanked, and I grew up with a healthy respect for my parents. However, my biological father's abuse included incest and beating, and I grew up without respect for him. There is a very large difference. Obviously, I did not get spanked very much. Once again, God never said to beat children, not in the way that we now define beating. Please make sure that you know your history of the times before you make a claim about the Bible and how things were done in comparison to how things are done now.

Sorry I haven't posted for awhile. I've been busy. Ok, I have a question. Where in the Bible does it say that beating children in ok? Cause I've never seen it or heard of it. And I think that MJ has not been able to bury the evil of TWI. I can see it in every post, whether it is intentional or not, because there is so many contraditions, a lot of laughing at horrible things (with the haha and lol comments), and a lot of blaming of the victims. I suppose my mother was one of those "stupid" morons that you keep mentioning. Stupid her for not realizing that her husband was a child molester and a liar. She's so ignorant. I was one of those "young sweet girls" that you mentioned. I was all of seven, and I certainly was never willing. If you aren't trying to call young children willing, then perhaps you really do need to move your comments to another thread, cause this one is about child abuse, and I can't believe I waded through all of those pages of posts just to try to make sense of the senseless.

Just a thought. If people weren't ready to be parents, why didn't they just use birth control. I mean, if abortions were allowed, certainly birth control was, as well?

I try to take it one day at a time. Some days are better than others. All in all, I have better days than I used to have. You all should have seen me seven years ago. I hated all men except for my dad (stepfather) and my grandpa. Whenever I helped a customer (male) or checked them out through the checkouts at work, I'd wonder if they were a child abuser. I'd have panic attacks every day, and screaming matches with my mother was a normal thing. I'm going through a rough patch right now, because I just moved out on my own again, and I'm trying to make it. It is hard to do when your brain doesn't develop normally. For the most part though, I'm happier than I used to be. The Lexapro does wonders. :)-->

Yes, memories are a funny thing. I tend to have more body memories than flashbacks. When I had previously talked about feeling like hands were touching me all over and I couldn't get away, that was an example of one of the body memories I have, one of the more mild ones. Now, since I have not done so before and have not felt like doing it until now, I would like to apologize for posting my story in the graphic tone that others took offense to. With my previous support group experiences, if something could be triggering, we would post *******Warning, may trigger*******. However, since this was a forum on child abuse, and my entire support forums have all been about child abuse or rape before (and other subjects are talked about), I did not think there was a need to post that information. Rather, I incorrectly assumed that people here would know that the things in this forum could be triggering. With my limited experience with the Way, I just thought everyone would have known that child abuse in the Way was attrocious. Now I see that not all forms of it were as extreme as mine, so I apologize for offending anyone, and I will make sure to post warnings if I do continue to post in this forum.

Thank you to those who have been supporting me. I'm talking privately with one person in this group, though I've chosen not to private message a few whose opinions I found to be condescending. Let me just say for those of you who feel that my memories may be false, that there is no such thing as false body memories, and when these flashbacks come up WITH the body memories, they are considered by experts to be true. Also, I've been talking to my mother lately, and seeing as how my father all but admitted that these events did happen (he said the "WEll, if it happened, I don't remember bit that all pedophiles seem to say), I'm inclined to believe that they are true, especially since they are my memories and my feelings.

I realize that it was your opinion, which is why I said that I felt sorry for you. What I'd like to know is why you don't think they are true. Tell me something, if you had heard this story without the Way's name attached, would it be more believable? I'm sure you've heard worse than this if you pay attention to the headlines.

P.S. I think I wasn't clear above. When I said that child abuse (actually, child sexual abuse, I believe, though I will look again) is listed right along with wife-swapping, it for specifically for the Way International.

I'm sorry if you don't believe a word I'm saying. I feel sorry for you. You are in denial about what goes on in the way. If child abuse is the exception to the rule, why is it listed right along with wife-swapping in cult journals? And if you don't believe me, then you are basically calling several other people here liars. If most of you are such nice citizens, ordinary people and such, why was wife-swapping so rampant? Why was sexual abuse and rape so rampant. There are a lot more stories out there than mine that detail sexual abuse in the way. Radar, can you state FOR A FACT, PROOF and all, that what I have stated did not happen? I am the one with the memories, I am the one with the panic attacks, the depression, the dissociative tendencies, the inability to get close to people, the bitter anger at men. I have worked long and hard in my therapy, I've soaked up everything I can on sexual abuse and ritual abuse, and I've talked to a person (outside of this group), who was a member of the Way in Gunnison who has stated that what happened to me there did happen to kids. What did she get for talking to me? She got beat up, by Way members! You tend to talk in generalities, but didn't the Way, at that time, have well over 140,000 members? Can you honestly say, after hearing what I've said and hearing what others on this thread have said, that I'm lying, because I don't care what you say about not calling me a liar, you are calling me a liar! Simple as that. Don't twist words and try to make it appear that you are nicer than you are. As for there bring "in" people in here, that doesn't sit well with me, and it doesn't sit well that so many people still seem to support the Way. I intend to give all of this information to my therapist so that she can present it at the ritual abuse conference. And how many times do I have to say that I AM in therapy? How many? Radar, can you honestly say that you think all of these people who say that they know that child abuse goes on are lying? Are you prepared to say that, because it seems like that is what you are alluding to, and that simply makes me think that you are confused. After all, you contradict yourself by saying that you don't believe that I was abused in the Way and then saying that it was the the "exception" though that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That is a contradiction within a contradiction, so which do you mean. Does it or doesn't it happen. BTW, unless you are an expert on recovered memories, don't even tell me that what I THINK is true isn't true. I'll stick with the real experts.

I did not think of my post as NC-17. It was the truth, that is all I was thinking of it as. I guess I thought that this was a support group like others I have been in that are for sexual abuse survivors. It is something that you would regularly see there.

What I mean when I say that it couldn't have been done in an apartment is that there were at least two levels, and the place was very large. There was concrete in part of the area. To this day, I tend to fall asleep if I'm in an area with concrete. Weird, but true. Also, I think someone said something about it being weird that I had my own room. I did not have my own room. It was a room that I shared with both my father and sister. Also, the movie room was just what I meant it to sound like, a room that we watched television and movies in. I just thought that maybe, from some of the comments, that someone may have thought I meant some kind of studio to make movies. Not what I meant. Dunkings in water could have been done in a bathtub or sink and is a common thing in religious cults. I don't have memories of this in particular, but I can't stand water on my face, and that is common with people who have had this happen.

Please tell me what it is you don't think adds up, and I will do my best to clear it up. Obviously, some people have already added POVs that support what I said. Please let me know anything else that you don't feel adds up. Also, many of my memories were in no way done in an apartment. There were a lot of people, and that was the only group he was a member of. My mother found out that he took us there that weekend, and many of my problems started around that time.

In addition to what I've been posting, the reason I did not post from the time that I registered until a few days ago was because I went through a period where I just didn't want to talk about what was happening, mostly because people couldn't stomach it. If I really was a sicko, I would have written something then. I had no intention of "connecting" with people here. Thus, there is no reason for me to just say hi and introduce myself. What I'm concerned with now is information. That is all. I don't feel safe where I am, and I believe it may be because of the Way. Also, for those of you who were grossed out by what I wrote, I apologize for ruining your lunch or whatever. I have to wonder why someone would eat lunch while reading stuff in a child abuse forum. Any mention of child abuse turns my stomach, so I would never eat lunch, breakfast, or anything else while reading things in this forum. I left out quite a bit of detail. I wrote what I did for a specific reason, and I have stated that reason and will not do so again.

If they wanted you to stop doing something I think they would do it differently. And this may be a good time to tell you that you now have a file started at HQ. Any details you have stated are in fact being chased down for authenticity. Not to scare you but to inform you that you are not in play-land here. For your protection and consideration only, not to induce fear in you. Really? From your condescending language, it would seem that the intent is to induce fear, but I'm not scared, nor am I playing. What I am concerned about is that you said a file was started at HQ. What HQ would this be? The Way HQ? If so, I'm concerned about your contact with them. Also, does EVERY member of the Way act in the same way? Do they all attempt to intimidate people in the exact SAME way, because that is the only way I can see your claim that they would do things differently to hold any legitimacy. Why did you not say this coming in? You have been registered for nearly 2 years. I'm going to assume that you have read us to some degree because you know of the abuse stories we have spoken of here. So did you not consider it may be a good thing to just start by saying hi? You would have seen how most go about joining in here. Leading me to another aspect of this. Have you then not also observed when _"those who would desire to make us appear as fools"_ came cruising through? You would have seen it if reading us between your registration and present date. I have not taken a lot of time to look at those who would be so stupid. I've seen a few stories here, but I've also seen many in library journals and elsewhere on the web. You are not the only site dedicated to life inside or outside the Way, whichever way be the case, as it seems suspiciously like some of you are still members, and as for those who tell me to check with the Way HQ, why would I have any reason whatsoever to believe the word of such "upstanding" citizens?

Thank you CoolWaters. God bless you! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Well, it happened over one weekend. It's a bit hard to stop when it happens like that, and it's hard to stop when it's being made a secret. "Shhh, don't tell," ring a bell?

FYI, false memories do not include body memories, some of which I so "sickly" described. Perhaps this is also why I went into such "detail," a detail which was not very detailed, actually.

Thanks for your support Temple, though I feel I need to point out that these memories surfaced long before I ever sought therapy, and other people have had these memories who were involved in other cults, so unless our minds were somehow telepathically linked, I dont' see how they couldn't be true unless they really happen. Your proof, for all who didn't believe and attacked me, is in Temple.

He had two daughters, and as far as I know, he only took us there for a weekend. I happen to know that there are sick people who get their jollies by posting lies and leading people to believe them, but you need to realize that just because this has happened, it doesn't give you license to blantantly accuse a person of lying. Most of the people who come here are looking for help. To be called twisted and sick was so hurtful that I couldn't stop crying at work. I had to leave work because I couldn't stand being around the customers when I couldn't stop crying. And to say that child abuse did occur in the Way and then turn around and say that my story is unbelievable? What gives you the right? What if I say that I believe you are still a member of TWI, a person who is out to make those who survived seem uncredible so that they won't be believed. If you had read anything on survivors, you would know the signs to look for, so you would not be so easily duped. How anyone could think that I'm a liar, especially after I've said what is going on with me now, is so unbelievably incredible that I have to wonder how you all think you can contribute to a "survivor" site. I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone, as I'm sure I am, but it boggles the mind. How many other people have you alienated who were just looking for help? I'm not a suicidal person, generally, but after reading your vicious attacks on my character, I just felt like dying. Maybe you all need to be more careful in what you say. If you think someone is lying, don't respond. Is it worth the chance that you are putting a person through more victimization? Sadie, I'm inclined to believe that you are still a member of TWI. Georgio Jessio, I suppose that all survivors are the same, right? We all talk about things in exactly the same manner? And I suppose you have known them through every phase that they have gone through. I don't normally go into detail, as it is disturbing for me. The reason I did was to try to connect with others who had perhaps had the exact same things happen to them. Now I don't know how to take your second reply to me. Should I believe you that you aren't trying to antagonize me? How does it feel to not be believed? Lindyhopper, I can't understand how you can say that you don't doubt something happened, that it sounds like a classic case, and then say that my story is an "elaborate and creative lie." What kind of person can be so contradictory? Uncle Harry, your post was in no way funny, was traumatizing (as the others were), and disgusting. Find a sex site to post my stories? Do you think I want disgusting perves getting off on what happened to me? What the hell is wrong with you. You are a disgusting pig who has no place being here. WordWolf, oh, I see a lot of survivors here, all right. I see REAL survivors, and then I see ones who do their best to emulate the abusive people they claim to speak out against. Sometimes, people just need to talk, they need to say the things that happened. That is what support sites are for, so it would be good if you tried to be more like one. I needed support. Instead, I was victimized. I hope you all feel real good about yourselves. Just because I'm a creative writer doesn't mean I write lies for jollies. I'm a Christian. I do my best not to lie, and as a survivor, any person who would write such lies needs to be in jail. I know what happened. I just wanted to know if it was something that normally happened in TWI or if it was a small faction that decided to do this for kicks. Thanks so much for your generous help. I feel sorry for your children. I hope nothing happens to them, because if they come to you for help, you'll probably just tell them that they are lying.

I can't believe that all of you could be so horribly mean! You call yourselves survivors? You know NOTHING about surviving. Snuff films? I've never even SEEN one. You don't think that terrorization is psychological? You don't think survivors know details? How about when you are locked into a memory which such detail that all you can do is puke? And if you have problems reading this, you shouldn't be reading Child Abuse in TWI. What the heck is wrong with you people! I thought this was a forum for survivors. Obviously, I was wrong. You think what I posted was sick? Why, because it was the truth? Of course it's sick!!!! Try living with the consequences day in and day out! Are you still so much in denial? You are the kinds of people who think that this stuff doesn't happen in your neck of the woods, right while it's happening under your noses! And yes, I'm in therapy. I've been in therapy for years, and you people need to be in therapy. You people are probably the type of people who are stalking me, the ones who beat up a nice woman just for talking to me. You think this kind of stuff doesn't happen in TWI? Wake up! Just the stuff you see on these boards from other "isolated" incidences should be enough to convince you. I'm horribly insulted and hurt. How could you possibly be so deranged as to think I would make something like this up? Child abuse is no joke. Sexual abuse happens! Wake up to the fact. And yes, perhaps I belong elsewhere, a place where people know how to recognize the truth, know the signs of a survivor, and realize that secrets are the foundation of TWI. You people are the ones who are sick! That you could dare to right something so hurtful and twisted to someone who was only seeking help. I just wanted some help, but I now know that this is just some twisted sight where people come to hurt others.

I was raped at Camp Gunnison when I was seven, possibly until I was twelve. My father was a member, but he and my mother were divorced. She told him not to take us there, but he did. My memories of what happened are sketchy, yet clear as far as body memories, tastes, etc. All I know is that I was somehow "chosen" because I had the palest hair. A woman told me how beautiful my hair was. We were watching television in the TV room. I was so tired, so my dad took me back to my room and left me alone, only he didn't leave for long. He came back with a man. I've blocked out what happened after that. One very visious memory I have had is of being forced onto my knees. I always remember darkness and cold concrete. I was in a room full of men. I guess you can imagine what happened next. Camp Gunnison did its best to ruin my life. I've never been able to have a normal relationship. In fact, I've had one that plummeted and died quickly. I wake up with the taste of semen in my mouth, and yet, I never knew that I knew the taste, until I saw my own description of the taste in a post written by a fellow survivor. The words were the same. I remember being told to "Quit my crying." I have flashbacks of body feelings, being touched all over and not being able to get away. My life is so changed that I have a hard time seeing men in a good light. I have a few male friends, but they instantly become rapists in my eyes when they start getting crude. I see them as victimizers of women. The thing is, I don't think that my victimization is over. They drugged me when I was there, and years later, when I dared to write about my story and publish it, I got phone calls every hour on the hour listed as "unavailable." An ex-way member who dared to talk to me was beaten up. They tried to intimidate me by pretending that they were going to run me over. They've taken my stuff, and because I tend to lose things, I would, at first, think it was just me...until my things were returned to me only days later, neatly lined up under a car seat in a newly cleaned car that had previously been devoid of any possessions. The symptoms of my abuse tend to indicate adult rape as well as child rape. Is that possible? Has anyone been drugged and raped unknowingly only to find out about it later? Can they get into your house and be so subtle as to taking things and returning them that you think you are crazy? I was at Camp Gunnison in 1982. Was anyone there at that time? Was anyone forced into a box and locked in with spiders or threatened with such, chased by men in black robes as a tool of intimidation? How about dunkings in water? I remember being sore after visitations with my father. I have very vivid dreams that put me back there. Because of their abuse, I will have to be on antidepressants for the rest of my life, I maintain an unhealthy weight so that I will not be attractive to men, I have panic attacks when I feel that people are too close or when they touch me. I can hardly take care of myself or pay my bills. My surrounds are practical squalor. And yet I'm a Christian with such faith in the Lord. I know that he keeps me strong, and I feel like telling the Way to bring it on! They turned my father into a monster who could stand there and coldly watch his child being raped. I was only seven years old. There are cult books that list the Way as a cult that practices in wife-swapping and child rape, so if there is anyone out there that simply thinks badly of the Way because of a new branch or something but still thinks they are basically good, think about this story. There is an underlying faction that a lot of people don't see of the Way, but you better bet your children probably do.