irisheyes

Just sittin' here trying to catch up and my stomach hurts just reading this stuff. We can't put God in a box or the holy spirit for that matter. We can't tell the holy spirit when to operate! How obnoxious of us. How ridiculous to even think we had such ability. There are no rules and regulations about whatever you want to call them; gifts, manifestations, etc. Like we could tell God "it's time for a prophecy here." Pulease.... I don't know if we are all supposed to speak in tongues. Do I think some people should? Sure. Do I think my eternal life depends on it? NO. Therefore, you want to do it? Rock on. Just don't try and tell me what I am supposed to do and don't try and tell God what and when He is supposed to do it either.

Maybe we're bitter because we weren't "getting any"! :lol:

George

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Of course, some of us where married and well, you know....

Ex: Hey girl, are you ok? I'm 50+, too, and still kicking butt. I got out when I was maybe 35 and I'm so glad I wasn't around for the stuff that followed. I learned to listen to myself one day and I think I have holy spirit in there somewhere. Most days I realize that I don't know crap and that's okay, at least I can own up to it. And crazy? Sure we know crazy. Just think, no one can bulls**t us and get away with it. We've learned from the masters....

Really, like get a life already, ya know? The Catholic Church is where I grew up myself. Big yawn. I think now that the pope is himself in trouble for letting the priests get away with it all, perhaps there will be an awakening within their people. Surely there are plenty of sincere, wonderful people who just want to do what is right and who just don't know what exactly that is.

Why? Because it was years of our lives, that's why. We were turned inside out and upside down and not even able to enjoy it!

And, boy, do people need to see it. It just makes me sick at my stomach reading this stuff and thinking I just never knew. I was too trusting. Perhaps had something of this sort had happened to me I would have been gone long before POP. We were so many of us trusting, moral people who only wanted to please God. The best thing to come out of all of this is that we were scattered abroad and even if it took years to heal, a great many of us have healed and moved on and continued our quest for truth and to hopefully be in God's will. The Lord knows if there was ever a time America needed to be blessed, it is today. Ex, there is no condemnation. Period.

I don't know if I exactly wondered if Geer confronted the three "stooges" or not. What I do remember more than anything was thinking "where is the love of God in this?" I was so totally disgusted that a father could actually leave a legacy like that to his son that I looked at my husband and said this just ain't right. I don't think it took us 24 hours to clear out. What we did was go home and actually read the bible for our own selves and low and behold the first thing I looked into was agape because that was what bothered me the most about the whole paper bs. Boy, was I surprised to see how wrong we had been taught about that one "little" word. It was a field day after that and ever since. If anyone should have confronted anyone it should have been VP confronting his own son. Are we called to hurt each other? How could I believe anything I was taught by a man who hurts the people he is supposed to love above all others. Blatant hypocracy. Oops, I mean hypocrisy (maybe).

Heck, I needed a good laugh to end a great day!

How 'bout Zombies?? Is that a better fit? Between "Bless Patrol", laundry, and just plain old lookin-for-fun, we were too tired to use our brains. IMHO.

Anyway, like-mindedness should have centered on what the Lord did while he was here on earth; i.e., healing, feeding, teaching, loving. After all, he is the head.

I've been in the Gulf of Mexico for a week and was surprised to find this thread still alive. Perhaps this will add to somebody's understanding? It sure helped me as far as "free will."

How many times have you heard "it was God's will" that such and such happened? Well, there's this little book called The Will of God by Leslie Weatherhead (there's a good German name for ya) which claims that there are actually three (3) wills of God:

"1) The intentional will of God: Was it God's intention from the beginning that Jesus should go to the Cross? I think the answer to that question must be No. I don't think Jesus thought that at the beginning of his ministry. He came with the intention that men should follow him, not kill him. The discipleship of men, not the death of Christ, was the intentional will of God, or, if you like, God's ideal purpose.

2) The circumstantial will of God: When circumstances wrought by men's evil set up such a dilemma that Christ was compelled either to die or to run away, then in those circumstances the Cross was the will of God, but only in those circumstances which were themselves the fruit of evil.

3) The ultimate will of God: God's ultimate goal--the purposefulness of God which, in spite of evil and, even through evil, arrives, with nothing of value lost.. The same goal as would have been reached if the intentional will of God could have been carried through without frustration. In other words, God cannot be finally defeated. That's the definition of His omnipotence--not that everything that happens is His will, but that nothing can happen which FINALLY defeats His will. So, in regard to the cross, God achieved His final goal not simply in spite of the Cross but through it."

I think our free will causes one of these wills of God to operate. Surely Jesus didn't want to die, but "not my will, but yours be done."

Just one other thought. Paul claims that he was blameless in the law. (!) I didn't know someone could be such. However, he says it in the same way he uses his sufferings. He makes quite a list of both: accomplishments and sufferings. Anyway, I think his point with both is that it's not by works, not by good works or by bad works--it's by grace. Is that not the lesson? If God can have three wills, can't we too? I have often felt pressured or cornered to do something I really don't want to. Or life just changes on me. I gotta change with it or I'm eating dust. I guess I'm just thinking that our free will changes as we do (or not).

Soul searcher: Great logic. Of course, we can't blame the adversary (or karma, whatever)for our choices, our decisions, etc. There are consequences to most everything we do, good and bad. Should we nevertheless know our enemies? Any good coach will say Hell, yes. (AS I live in Louisiana, that superbowl victory is still fresh in our minds. Ha.) I guess in all honesty, though, I look at the wrong stuff as more random than personal. Like I've said, I think the world, and America for sure, is so far gone that no one has to push any buttons anymore, we're free falling.... I'm outta here for a week, cruising the Caribbean. Hope the food's not tainted.

You'd have to "be there" gastrointestinaly.. to appreciate the last statement..

In case you haven't noticed, you are talking to YOURSELF.

Will be cruising the Caribbean for a week, probably not doing much on the net. See ya'll after, if we don't hit a sunami or if it doesn't hit us????

all my life i wondered why things happened to me and what i did to let them or make them happened to me because of course it had to be because of my believing or because i "left the door open" or "dropped my guard" or wasn't "dealing with the adversary" right or something. but then about a couple of weeks ago i watched that oprah episode where she was interviewing those convicted pedophiles and getting into their heads. i watched it because i have this masochistic need to know why perpetrators do what they do. but anyway, there was a man on there that had messed with his own twelve year old daughter and oprah asked him what he said to his wife to get out of trouble with her when his daughter told on him. he said that he told his wife his daughter was lying to get what she wanted. oprah asked him how that made hiim feel to say his own daughter was a liar. he said, "i wasn't thinking about her or what i was doing to her. i was just trying to cover my own butt." that's when it hit me and hit me hard that all abusers are the same and that all abusers want just one thing and that one thing is they want what they want. that's it. they're not thinking of anything else but what they want. it doesn't matter if the abuser is "just" a verbal abuser or if the abuser is a pedophile or if the abuser is a cult leader or if the abuser is a wife beater or if the abuser is a murderer or if the abuser is a rapist or if the abuser is an arsonist or if the abuser is a burglar or whatever. the bottom line is they are thinking ONLY of themselves and what THEY want. so it has NOTHING to do with who/what they choose to perpetrate against. and sickness and misfortune are the same way. $h1t happens because that is what $h1t does.

Probably most of us have had abusers in our lives or even been one (Maybe still are?). For me drug abuse surrounded me. Lost two brothers and nearly a son. My take? Yes, I believe there's an adversary, but I think he has this society so tied up that he really has nothing much left to do but sit back and laugh at us. I think there's a couple of accounts where the person needing healing was told to "look at me." Jesus said it and Peter, I think, also. I think the reason for that was so the person could concentrate and not let outside influences well, influence them. I find the word "balance" disturbing. I wish there was a definition I could live with for it. But, as for all you said, all we can worry about is our own selves and not try and figure out why stuff happens the way it does and just try to not be the cause of it happening.

One of the best works I've seen on the Book of Acts - - - - - > > > http://my.en.com/~anders/intro.html

The entire book is free for the reading, and printing out on your own. Follow the links to read it in it's entirety.

THANKS!

i believe i was born again and saved by his merciful grace way before i ever heard of paul or met veepee

Yeah, I think that took hearing about what Jesus did for me too.

Does anyone ever wonder why der Victoid needed "all 9 all the time" just to sit on his motorcoach and drink Drambuie?

SIT - drambuie, drambuie, ball, balloon, ball-O, jello drambuie shots

Interpretation - My little children the Lord Gawdawlmighty wants you to make Drambuie jello shots and give them all to me so that he can bless me and keep me all the days of your life.

Prophecy - Thou shalt give me Drambuie in a porcelain cup.

WOK - I know there's Drambuie under your sink.

WOW - The Lawd wants you to give me that Drambuie

Disc of Spirits - If you touch my Drambuie you'll be possessed and born of the wrong seed.

Faith - I BELIEVE in Drambuie

Miracles - Five bottles of Drambuie!

Healing - Ahhhh.... that's the stuff

Clever, girl! Check on my house once in awhile, okay?

God never told me to go WoW, or take the advanced class, or go to corps, or have way people move in with me. Apparently he told a bunch of other people (all of them in the way) all those things, but I never heard from God. In fact, every time I even considered it, a bunch of reasons why none of those things would really work for me, bubbled to the surface even as I was being told to ignore those reasons by people in the way.

Ironically, I was told by several people (in the way) that it wasn't a good idea for me to marry my (now) husband. However, he was delivered to my doorstep just like I asked God to do. That was "our" secret handshake that would let me know that God had sent the person and not just wishful thinking on my part. I figured it wasn't a coincidence, since it happened exactly like that.

People in the way continually questioned my ability to hear from God in my own life, yet never questioned their own ability to hear from God on my behalf.

How refreshing to actually hear someone say what I thought for so long! To this day I cringe when people say God told them this or that. For all my years in that damned ministry I was horrified that I never got revelation. I even got to the point of wondering if I was even saved. So, just what is it anyway? A smack upside the head or that still small voice? I'm not seriously looking for an answer. I don't doubt it could happen, I just don't think it's an everyday, common occurrence.

I guess that's my point. If someone falls off a 10 story building, The Way would offer that if s/he was paying attention to God, s/he would have seen the dumb edge of the building. Never mind that they have eyeballs in their heads, right?

The illogic is so much the point too, isn't it?

My argument today is that if someone falls off the building, I have to wonder what Way Leadership told them it was ok to stand so close to that edge.

There's this little book (64 pp) called "The Will of God" by Lesie D. Weatherhead that speaks of the THREE wills of God: The intentional, circumstantial and ultimate will of God. It's so worth finding, something that makes so friggin much sense, you want to hit yourself over the head when you read it.

Think about this (if you haven't already): "The laws of the universe which are themselves an expression of God's will, were not set aside for Jesus, the beloved son. The laws which govern the hammering in of nails held on the day of crucifixion in just the same way as they do when you nail up a wooden box."

Awesome read.

Deja vue all over again!

Sometimes I wonder if I didn't check my brain at the doorstep along with my "negatives" which weren't allowed to come in to twig and find relief. Meany Poopheads indeed!

WG

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS, is what I would like to say. This surely wasn't just a 90's thing. When I went WOW in the 70's I lost custody of my baby girl because of it. VPW's response? You didn't listen to God! WTF??? Where? When? By going WOW was the answer, it just took me years to see it. Ha. So, I kidnapped my kid and actually got away with it and thought I had done something wonderful for God. And, honestly, God made good where I had made a wrong decision. Doesn't He do that for us, His kids?

Along those lines, if someone falls off a 10 story building is it the adversary who kills him or is it God's law of gravity? A broken heart can kill someone just as easily as a diseased one.

I do love this stuff, and more and more it becomes clear to me, at least, that it is not a myth or fairy tale. I say this in part, because of the way Jesus interacted with people and the way He understood human nature. There are times I am astounded by the perfect responses He gives. The people writing about Him, were not those kind of people. . . . His understanding is fairly unique and the product of an amazing heart. They couldn't make this stuff up. . . . :) They were not cut from the same cloth!

But, I did not say, He didn't say anything new . . . I said, He didn't say too much that was new . . . .but, it was how He revealed the things He did say. Similar to what you are saying really. Yes, you have made some beautiful points. Jesus surely did have a way with words!

When that lawyer or expert in Mosaic law stood up to challenge Jesus. . . . Jesus had just said. . . .Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babes" Next thing you get is an "expert" with a hypocritical posture . . . . questioning the Lord. Jesus asked him. . . . well, how do you read it? Implying there is a right way and a wrong way to read it. In fact, He told the guy . . . he was right. I imagine the guy was taken aback.. . . and looking for an argument. . . . that he got so flustered . . . . He blurted out. . . . . . who the heck is my neighbor.

Jesus even had to rephrase his question a bit . . . . because the question revealed the man's heart. Jesus answered more along the lines of "Who am I to show myself a neighbor to" . . . . . . Everyone, even your enemies.

I think instead of getting worked up about inerrancy and personality. . . .we just read it and see if these things don't come together. It never hurts to read it with a little humbleness and always prayerfully seeking.. . . . but, there are as many ways to read into scripture as there are hearts that read it .

Getting back to Paul, he is a fairly big deal because as you noted . . . . the time for the gentiles had not come while Jesus ministered. Paul, was called to be a light to the gentiles. So, he was kind of fulfilling the second half of Jesus' ministry. Paul's compassion was for Israel. . . .of all people Paul, would not be first to run to the gentile. . . . Yet another one of God's "jokes" in using the right people at the right time. How He has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise....

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If we are going to be mindful of things . . . . we really should consider when basing some of our assumptions on the workings of cult which poorly tried to mimic THEIR understanding of the first century church. It doesn't make any sense at all to use VP's vision of Paul or VP's counterfeit church to evaluate anything, but another counterfeit.

Paul, at least in the epistles, was not micromanaging the churches. . . . he was correcting gross error. But, if one does not believe there is a standard or right vs wrong. . . . true vs false. . . . . concerning the church or God. . . . than I can see where these assumptions might come in. . . . What did Jesus say?. . . . How do you read it? No one comes to the Father . . . I am this, I am that, I am, I am,, I am. Scripture is filled with declarative statements. This is this. . . that is that. . . . and that is the reality.

As humans. . . . life is lived in the gray. . . . therein lies the challenge.

I am currently in a study on Acts and just getting to Paul. I am quite curious, all things considered, to see how this is handled. You are right in saying he didnt' micromanage, but maybe he wrote the office manual? Job qualifications? Job descriptions? I realize in looking over this stuff that TWI surely didn't come up with anything too original. Church in the home? John Wesley had a handle on that one way before TWI. And there were probably others before him. Like we said, no new thing under the sun....

Nice post, irisheyes.

WRT below...

Judging from Jesus' words, a "neighbor" isn't just anybody (i.e. the guy next door), but somebody who helps another, someone with good intentions.

I found this teaching to be quite sobering. My selfish motto nowadays is something along the lines of, "No good deed goes unpunished." lol (just kidding...I try, I try.)

In rereading what I posted, I guess it could be taken to mean just someone far away and not your neighbor also. That's not really what Jesus did. He took care of things as he went along. Sure, sometimes he went out of his way to get somewhere to do something special, but mostly not, I think. If this is where TWI got their WOW ideas, etc. shame on them. Shoot, shame on them anyway. Plenty of people in Acts owned homes and stayed put. Don't get me started.... :wacko:

I really don't see Paul's character or background as being sanitized. We know that he approved the stoning of Stephen and stood by as it happened. We also know that he "began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison" (Acts 8:3). And right up until his conversion he was "still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples" (Acts 9:1).

You can't really sanitize that can you? It would seem that the only way to be redeemeded of that reputation is to get a pass from The Man Himslef.

JMHO

And I might add to that that Paul obviously had wanderlust before and after his conversion!Also, he was obviously a driven man who took his beliefs to the extreme, good or bad. It took someone with those qualities to light a match to the first century church's behind. He knew there was a Messiah coming, he was a Pharisee. But, he had to rethink his beliefs (hence his few years sabbatical) and adjust them accordingly and then he was able to use what he learned and how he figured it out, to teach others. I love how God's providence shines through with the people He chose/chooses. Think about Moses, who better to lead Israel through the desert than someone who had just spent 40 years roaming around in it? Just one example....

It's sweet to be able to say I agree, Geisha. I love agreeing. I also love disagreeing though because it allows that further scrutiny. There is one point, however (of course), that I'm not so sure on. You said Jesus didn't say anything new. I don't know about that. Maybe not new in the sense of there's no new thing under the sun, but he did do things that seemed new to the people in his time. The Jews in no way wanted to play nice with the Gentiles. Over and over again Jesus played nice with them anyway. Even John the Baptist had to send his disciples to ask if Jesus was the one who was the come. Obviously he knew who Jesus was. He said as much when he baptized him, his mom prophesied about Jesus, they were cousins for pete's sake. But, Jesus wasn't doing what everyone expected him to do, John included. He wasn't overthrowing the government and crowning Israel triumphant. As far as I can tell the prophesies in the Old Testament about the Messiah were not recognized as such until after the resurrection. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and a curse at the same time. Even the apostles didn't get it until after the resurrection.

Jesus loved to use the Samaritans as examples. Plenty of Samaritans knew the Old Testament. They had Hebrew blood. The woman at the well knew about the Messiah. Once again, Jesus did the unexpected. Not only was she a Samaritan, she was a woman! Same with the lepers, et al. He constantly broke tradition. Whores? Sure, they were no different to the Lord, only to the people he lived among.

Yes, the old testament said love your neighbor. But, someone had to ask Jesus who is my neighbor? His answer would probably disgust most of us today if you switch the word Samaritan to the word terrorist, for example. Jesus' answer was go into a place you don't want to go, help out someone you consider an enemy, who is wounded, touch him (what if he has AIDS?), help him, put him on your bike and you walk beside him, get him to the ER, pay for his care and come back and make sure he's taken care of. Right.

(It's easy to love someone who loves you back; what about our enemies?)

I think Jesus' answer to John the Baptist was his way of saying it wasn't the time for Israel. It was time to heal, time to love, time to bring people together.... Look what I've done, John. I've healed the sick, the lame walk, the blind see. That's what I have come to do. So, what exactly is it WE are here to do?

And, of course, let's throw women into the stew for a second. Luke and Acts and countless other places show the importance women played in getting the Word out. They financed Jesus! How could anyone honestly consider women second-class citizens? It had to be custom.... Jesus surely didn't exempt himself from women. Women weren't the ones who turned away. Shoot, he appeared to a woman first when he was resurrected.

Don't ya love this stuff?

Nonsense!

The Grateful Dead were still in Jr. High in the first century.

And I just ate some Ben & Jerry's!

Let me say ahead of time that I'm reporting was is widely known, not my opinion.

2 Tim. 3:16 in GREEK does not contain the word IS. The first is, that is. In other words, All Scripture God breathed is profitable.... I quit trying to refute this. Perhaps if we look at it in this light, some of our questions can be answered. If truly God did not breathe ALL scripture but the scripture He did inspire is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction, then clearly not all scripture came from His Lips. This would surely explain "contradictions", how many roosters crowed, how many were crucified, what day of the week the crucifixion took place, how Noah could have possible told the difference between a male and female cockroach, etc. If our salvation does not depend (and I repeat myself) on whether or not we cut our hair, or if women have to shut up in the church, etc., then let's just friggin forgetaboutit. Of course, as for Paul, when all is said and done, not only was he human, he was a man! (Just throwing that in for the sistas!)

Well, we do have over 30,000 Christian denominations, so I don't think you're going to see all Christians agreeing. I imagine that's why it is more important to God that we keep the unity of the Spirit - not the flesh. Sometimes I gotta admire the Catholic Church - they may not agree but after 1800 years or so - its still one church plugging along.

Irish eyes, basically, the Bible has three divisions of people - Jew, Gentile, One Body (Church - age of grace). I was talking about "believers." Paul was sent to the Gentiles. The Gentiles of the world were blessed through Abraham.

That's why Romans is so amazing. The Jews said - we are God's chosen and righteous under the law. They had been under the law for so long, they had forgotten that Abraham was called, made righteous and justified by faith a few hundred years before the law - i.e., when he was a gentile. So Paul in Romans says, I know this is hard for my fellow Jews to believe, but the Gentiles are now "grafted in." They can share fully in your Hope. Remember Abe? All is takes is simple faith - he was made righteous because he believed - not by the Law. Gentiles do not have to do the law to be righteous.

Concerning "unbelievers" - here's the bottom line for me. We know, there is coming one day, a NEW Heaven and a New earth. It will be a brand new habitat. Maybe the laws of physics will be different - who knows, but it will be different. That's been the whole message of the Bible - a new Kingdom is coming, that's what Jesus preached and the Apostles. Those who live then will need a new body designed for this new place. When someone is born again he is sealed with spirit - he will have that eternal, immortal, different, changed, glorious new body. There will be no sin. God is Holy. He sent his Son to make us worthy. An "unbeliever", like a vegetarian who is repulsed by meat, is repulsed by God.

For all people, eventually, a choice needs to be made - spend eternity with God - or no. Many will choose - no. Is that unfair of God? No. Why? because it would be unfair of Him to force that person to believe and love him. To force one to believe is coercion and grossly unfair and oversteps a man's free will. Will God "torture" them? No, God does not torture. But, all will see his glory. Every knee shall bow (whether they like Him or not).

The only remorse one will have, who freely choose not to be with God for eternity, will be gnashing of teeth after they have seen glory - despair for what could have been, for what was rejected, for what was deliberately missed out on.

U R preaching to the choir.