Carl Smuda

Roy,

How exciting! Tell me, what is the year 2027? Is that the Parousia or something?

Anyway, how exciting! I've read chunks of the patristic letters. Do we call them that? Ignatius letters, and the like. The didache. Some of the apocrapha. I had a lot of fun reading chunks of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Those people really loved God and His Law and His Sabbath. Looks like you've read some of the Nag Hammadi find too, yes? I was blown away when I saw how much material is out there that the Scholars know about that 99% of the Christians are clueless to. It looked to me that for every book in canon there are several amazing ancient writs that didn't "get in."

Carl

Mark,

Look at post #14 on this thread. There Free2Love posted and here is part of it:

Very well put. Certainly there are leaders and ministries in the body of Christ. But just look at the word itself: It’s *leaders*, not bossers. It’s so obvious yet we don’t see it and we get bamboozled. A leader is one who goes ahead, leading the way. Then he/she comes back and serves what they have found to the others. As you point out, the role of a Christian leader is to serve. That is because what he is leading in happens to be love. God is love and the knowledge of Him is love. When Jesus washed the feet of the apostles what was He teaching them but the humble service of love?

As far as this all applies to Christians and the aspect of hierarchy, I can think of no better example than I saw in a very early “Sower” article from CES I read called “Pattern for Fellowship” which was, in part, a study of 1 Cor 14. In it they pointed out that after all the reproof regarding the improper conduct in their fellowship meetings, in verse 26, couched as an almost minor, deceptively simple statement is God’s solution to the whole mess. He doesn’t say “Well, what you need to do is get some strong, charismatic men and women to take charge” or “You need to believe for some gift-ministries in your area”. (sound familiar?) What He said was: “26How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying” the context of this wonderful truth is not a leadership epistle, in fact this is set smack in the middle of what is considered the “milk” or basic principles to the believer. Stated another way, this is not addressed to leaders but to every believer in the body! I remember when I used to teach fellowship in my apartment and I would spend hours praying for God to help me by showing me what to teach, what to sing, who to call on, mostly, just focusing on how I could best bless God’s people, (and of course He always did) studying, doing word studies, etc. and When I read that article, years later, He brought those times back to my mind. Of course when all this was happening my understanding was firmly entrenched in the attitude of twi’s hierarchy. Reading that study was like taking off blinders. God’s instruction to “Let all things be done unto edifying” (love) is not to leaders.but to everyone. All the believers praying to know how to bless God’s people, preparing their minds in the word, looking to the needs of each other. That is what was wrong at their meetings. Their hearts were filled with one kind of self concern or another rather than looking to how to edify one another and all this probably confused by a super-imposed hierarchy. There is no need for a tiered hierarchy because if all set their hearts in love to edify one another, God will work in them and the one who has something to teach will teach and the one who has something to sing or to prophesy or minister, they will do so and all will be decent and in order as God is not the author of confusion.

We all have a leader, the best leader who is able to speak to us and work in us to love. His name is Jesus Christ.

I apologize for the "sandblast" remark. Not very clear was I? Of course there is much joy&rejoycing in the Christian canon. Personally I'm a HUGE fan of the book of Job. What it is is, I am interested in the mysticism of Paul the Apostle. The book of that title I studied closely about eight years ago. The author, Albert Schweitzer, only used the church epistles I listed because the Scholars of the NT only consider those letters to be, without question, the writings of Paul the Apostle. And the revolutionary ideas in the old article "Patterns of Fellowship" is using uncontested writings of Paul. I'm a big fan of Paul. It is the revelation that Paul was given that gave the world Christianity. If we think Christianity Today is the same thing as Paul's generation?, well that may be another thread.

respectfully,

Carl

Interesting. Thank you Abigail. This duality that has come up in this thread; I've read some about Zarathustra. His influence on Persia and the surrounding area. Did duality come from him, do you think? I do agree with the idea that duality began when Adan&Eve learned about the knowledge-of-good-and-evil. Some Christian historians I respect do not believe that the Adam&Eve& the serpent is literal. So I take note of that, BUT, it is hard for me to put that together with Romans 5. Not that I'm worried about contradictions. I am not. Just that Romans 5 makes me line up a literal Adam with a literal Christ. Or should we make Romans 5 non-literal?

Are there any spiritual exercises that you would recommend to this end?

It helps a little. Do you use any of the Christian church epistles as inspired writ? If you had to put your inspirations into the categories of manifestations-of-the-spirit (I Corinthians 12-14) where or how would you label your understanding? I'm not really that much into labels, I'm just fishing for a comparison between your post here and the uncontested writings of the Apostle-to-the-Gentiles?

I do not know what He knew, knows...

I no longer belief in soul sleep. I think the positions of this Faith are positions against the majorities around them. e.g. Abraham took a position against the many-gods beliefs all around him in the fertile crest of Iraq.

What about what Free2Love seems to be saying here? What about "forget Faith and walk in Love"?

Like the fleshly child in the womb of his or her fleshly mother the spiritual child in the womb of our hearts depends on Christ and God to give the child its needs to grow the truth and love from above.

E.W., you must be, what?, 200 years old by now?

I've read all books mentioned in this thread. Kept not one of them. My wife tells a tale of, as a child, her family had to destroy a television they got from someone. Ectoplasm frequently came out of it at night and crawled up the ceiling and some moaning sounds I think. She didn't use the word 'ectoplasm' but I recognized the description. I find it easier to understand these spiritual things if one moves outside of the Christian dichotomy.

Dancing,

thank you for the Elmo's Fire video. that really blessed me. 20+ years ago that movie touched my messed up WayBe heart. It was a real blessing to stir up those memories.

sincerely,

Carl

AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED UPON THE FACE OF THE WATERS....

I believe that is Being. The God divided the waters from the waters...and called it the heavens? In Being we live and move.

The thought struck me, the Christ eliminated the "Them and Us" dualism. The Apostle-to-the-Gentiles called it a "Great Mystery."

I believe in a scorecard. Some call it Karma. There are many ways to describe and compare it in personal terms and impersonal terms. As I embrace the idea now, we cannot remove karma we generated in this life In This Life. Our next life is likely to be an animal. Amphibian or higher. 1-out-of-12 lives is human, so try not to fritter away this one.

The Father analogy is good for me since I am "married with children." And the mention of the book of Job caught my eye because I do so love that book. You remind me I need to study it again. Yes I think the great omnipotent powers of the great Atman has no choice but to "keep score," albeit I wouldn't put it in those terms...maybe I'd use the Law of conservation of energy...

"Soul Sleep" is a term used to describe the theology taught by TWI, the JWs, and the Seventh Day Adventists on the subject. Yeah, Wierwille called it "Are the Dead Alive Now." The doctrine is also referred to, by some, as "Conditional Imortality."

The vast majority of Christianity rejects this concept.

What Free2Love posted on "Patterns of Fellowship" is POTENT, to say the least. In fact, I'd gladly sandblast off all holy scripture save the Church Epistles. The unquestioned uncontested core would be: Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, First Thessalonians, and Philemon.

It took some time for the "Pattern" to sink in. In fact mostly now it may be more what it is NOT. But I recognize the "leadership" epistles as something added that cannot be ignored. The winners (orthodox) said this is canon and this is leadership. The Apostle-to-the-Gentiles mentions leaders but in I Corinthians 14 he doesn't tell them to get leaders, he says seek that you may excel to edify.

respectfully,

Carl