fooledagainII

This story may sound similar or maybe not.

Before I got involved with WTI (mid 80s), I had been to many different types of denominational churches but felt I like there was a piece missing... I just didn't understand how these great men and women of the bible had this great relationship with God. I did my best to love and serve God but had more questions than answers.

To be honest, I read a couple of verses a day (short ones... because I was completely lost), went to Sunday school (which was usually a printed booklet for that week) didn't really see how it related to me, went to church services and that was about it. But I did my best to live what I thought was Christian life.

Speaking only about my experience (very summed up)... here's where the confusion get me in a complete circle.

• A. Before TWI, living life and doing my best to live the way I'm suppose to. Have belief system in place.
  B. Mid 80s, take PFAL and instructed to put what I've learned before "spiritually" on hold.
  C. I question what I been taught (spiritually) before hand.
  D. Get involve with TWI, living life, doing my best to live that way I'm suppose to. Have belief system in place.
  E. Don't like the direction TWI is going, decide to leave. But still believe in what they taught me.
  F. After leaving TWI, living life and doing my best to live the way I'm suppose to.
  G. Find GS, read about abuse, doctrine errors, etc...
  H. I question what I been taught (spiritually) before hand.
  

Now I feel I back to square one. But what was real in TWI scripture wise? Where can I go for real answers?

...I say that for all you new folks because the old timers know about my collection of sounds and videos I can post.

I happened to have found an old song on my computer's hard drive (OK, I knew exactly where it was) and thought I'd post a snippet here. I DO have the whole thing of course for anyone interested. Man.. can that lady get down. Click HERE!

sudo (thinking about maybe posting tunes again)

Sudo big thanks for sending me the song... I hope you are feeling better.

I thought this could use its own topic.

Sudo I would enjoy hearing some the old songs (I often look on ebay to find them but never do). I think for some us "new folks" we would love the opportunity to hear/see anything you could post from your collection (again big thanks).

Hmmm.... Reasons for m&a?

...And of course, the ultimate sin - DEBT (but this was only enforced if you were not related to clergy - otherwise, it was fine.)

I never understood how far they went to find out if you were in debt. Did they run credit checks? Look at your car & home and then your ABS? Played golf with your mortgage loan officer? Seen student loans deferrment letters?

Okay, I know that most people were honest and probably told them or they knew you didn't own your home/car out right. But if you rented and didn't have a car payment, how did they know?

I remember them runing a get a debt workshop at word & business in the early 90s... hmmm did those people get M&A?

Thanks MC!

She did have a great voice....hmmm speaking of hearing her sing.... Sudo I enjoyed hearing that snippet, I like to hear the full song (and any others that you care to share).

...I happened to have found an old song on my computer's hard drive (OK, I knew exactly where it was) and thought I'd post a snippet here. I DO have the whole thing of course for anyone interested. Man.. can that lady get down. Click HERE!

sudo (thinking about maybe posting tunes again)

As the one who started this thread and reading the responses, I found it very interesting.

I'm very new to posting and have my own reasons for asking questions about certain subjects. Which I thought was one the point for this forum, to get some answers from people who would know, if they decide to share. Now I understand that when someone post something you must be prepared for all types of information: positive and negative; facts, opinion, fiction, exaggerations; etc... and that's fine with me.

How she felt was only a small part of my post (by the way I care or I wouldn't have bother to post it ) the other part of my post got no response at all.

...but I often wonder what (if any) part she played in the things that were happening. I like to believe she was not involved but she was there for so long, she would have to known sooner or later what was going on.

She such a stand out figure in the way (in my opinion, of course).

JavaJane I meant if you say something enough times some people will believe it. Like panic of Y2K?

I too believe them about not surviving if you left the protection of the Way. To honest, I believe this even after I left. I was so screwed up that whenever things happen badly to me (after I left) I thought it was because I left.

But what do I know, if someone says something enough times (especially someone you trust) you tend to believe them no matter how crazy it sounds to people that think straight. But I think that how the mind works, after all how many times have you heard someone that was in a relationship believe some crazy stuff because they trusted their partner?

When I was kid there was nine planets, now they say there's only eight (major planets).... and if they keep saying it, who knows maybe I believe it.

The power of continually saying certain phrases (no matter how stupid it is). "Snakes on the plane was a good movie... snakes on the plane was a good movie... snakes on the plane was a good movie..."

Was Chr*s G. the only one with a guard dog? How did they (TWI) explain that... And who was the "lucky" believer that got the job to feed and clean up after the attack dog(s).

So whatever the "need" was for attack dogs... did that "need" disappear once CG left?

The only thing I can think of way of an explanation is "...we have to guard the Word... or... we just got Arnold the pig and Babe to take the class and they're being guarded from devil spirits...". I mean, come on... guard dogs where people are learning to be Christian leaders. What on earth could be that valuable? What makes it really weird is that I bet nothing was ever said to him or anyone else that had guard dogs, that this action is way over the top, because of the mental games they played...

Not to mention if some of the top leaders were "packing" heat to boot. This was like bizzaro world or something. Where was this in the brochure/green card "...We're a research ministry with wonderful loving, kind people... but just in case, we've got guard dogs and we're packing heat!"

Java Jive

...it was Geer that trained the German short-haired dogs and the dobermans to be attack dogs. In fact, one of them was so vicious and uncontrollable that as soon as VPW died, they packed that dog overseas to go be with his Frankenstein creator....not even Paula Butler could contain that dog...

I'm still amazed by this. Do anyone know why there was a need for attack dogs? What was they guarding? Did anyone have any close call with the dogs?

Also was it common knowledge about the dogs? Why were people carrying guns (I read this in another thread that someone keeping Don W. from entering with a gun)?

Did anyone every notice that the cameramen at SNS would stand a formal "at ease" stance when they weren't working the camera? The same thing seem to happen to the piano player.

Was this some sort of policy?

Any insight on this?

I'm totally out the loop. Who is M*rk W*ll*ce?

What I know about Claud*tte R@y*l you could write on an a grain of rice.

I always enjoyed her singing and sat in on her sharing at a Word in Business workshop once in IL but that's about all I know about her. She appeared to be pretty nice (I think she was ordained... I don't know if that was through TWI) but I often wonder what (if any) part she played in the things that were happening. I like to believe she was not involved but she was there for so long, she would have to known sooner or later what was going on.

She such a stand out figure in the way (in my opinion, of course).

...I know of many corps brothers who were literally escorted off Twi property by thugs...

How embarrassing! Do you know of anyone that protested and "tried" to refuse to go? What was the hurry anyway, did they feel some "devil spirit" might escape if they didn't get people removed by a certain time?

Was clergy "bum rushed" off too?

I guess if you found yourself working on the "honey wagon" at the rock... my guess was you were on the unfavored list.

Thank Radar that thread gave a lot insight (and ww, for finding/linking it)... should be required reading (just my opinion).

Couple of questions:

...the entire Galatians teachings were inspired by the research done by a 15th corps grad woman that was on staff in the corps director's office....Craig didn't even come up with THAT himself...

What was in the Galatians teachings?

Does anyone know if there is thread out there about this?

Chris Geer did not like Mrs. Wierwille, actually the word despise comes to mind. There were whole sections of written narratives about her that Don, Howard and even LCM would NOT ALLOW to publicized. All three of them were willing to be personally crucified but were not willing to allow C Geer "to go there" in regards to Mrs. I believe that she considered Geer a liar, a snake and a self serving excuse for a man, at one time she personally said to me that he was "among the deceivers, not the deceived"..this view was (and is) pretty much held by the entire Wierwille family, of that I feel confident. Part of her opinion comes from the fact that he was attempting to destroy everything of value to her...the legacy of her husband. VPW had been dead less than one year at the time of POP and she was still in deep mourning.

What CG problem with Mrs W.? Why did they allow him to speak to Corp at all?

...It is pretty safe to say that nobody, EVER wanted VPW to be around C Geer, but that is because Geer was always coming up with kooky stuff....for any of you that want to know...it was Geer that started all that Illuminati stuff, it was Geer that

came up with the paranoid practice of sending the safety department to S.W.A.T. training, it was Geer that trained the German short-haired dogs and the dobermans to be attack dogs. In fact, one of them was so vicious and uncontrollable that as soon as VPW died, they packed that dog overseas to go be with his Frankenstein creator....not even Paula Butler could contain that dog. I am not blaming every wacko thing twi ever did on Chris Geer....VPW and plenty of others came up with some hair brained ideas (the green foam on the trailer in the woods, the Sno-Way, etc.) but there were valid reasons for

people not to trust Geer...

Huh??? Attack dogs... S.W.A.T. training... what in the world was I involved in? What is Illuminati "stuff"?

Here is something I did not dare ask when I was in the way. When people was asked to leave or were fired from the position, how was this done? Was it civil? Was it a surprise (did you see it coming)? Was it done harshly?

Since this ministry was suppose to be loving (and kind?), I just curious. I remember some friends being keep out of active corp, and feeling I want to help ease their pain but didn't know how to help. It tore them up inside. It always made me wonder how that dealt with those they asked to leave.

Did give enough notice or time to plan where you going? Who was the "hatchet men" or was it done by letter/phone?

I remember back when I took LCM's AC we were told "back bitting" (or questioning) LCM could get you sent home. This came up because of how the manifestations were being done at the AC. When I was on the field I heard again "back bitting" could get you kick out of the way. One person on the field with me got sent home and we were not allow to talk to her other than say "good bye". I remember feeling so sad for her because before she went home she was "confronted" by local leadership & the L*ll*ys for her actions.

Anyone want share what they know or heard about the steps TWI used when asking someone to leave or firing them?

Last I know James is still here in Topeka. He had a kidney removed about a year ago.

Here

Is this the same J@mes Sm*th that suffered from a stroke sometime back?

Being a single adult and in the way, the celibacy thing was confusing. If I'm remembering correctly in the CF&S class I remember statement like "...it's better to go home hot and bothered than sorry and satisfied..." then later in the session hear "...if you do it, don't pull out..." (excuse my bluntness but I think that how VPW said it). Then of course was LCM class BF.

Anyway, I remember (when I was newbie) my girlfriend (who was corp) and I would occasionally have sex and she would be filled with so much guilt the next day (or sometime days later) and I would feel hurt because she felt so bad (even though it was her ideal most of the time). As time went on she felt less guilty about it but it was alway kind of a thing for her.

On the flip side, years later trying to observe the celibacy thing but my believer girlfriend at that time, thought I was from planet "Mombo". It became a real source of tension.

Leaderships spin on it would be completely different depending who I was talking to (I remember actually being reproof for not have sex). Believe it or not, this Corp leadership told me "...who did I think I was to elevate one sin above another..." and he went on for about half an hour on it (mostly on how screwed up I was). I should have known I was being set up, when he asked me if I was having sex with my current girlfriend (why, I took it on the chin with people like that back then is beyond me).

Throughout my time with TWI (80s & 90s), I went back and forth on the celibacy thing but it seem no matter which side I choose it was rough.

Here's a very nosey question but it was something I alway wondered about. How did the Corp get their assignment? Were you given a choice or was it a big surprise?

Did anyone (be honest, I won't tell anyone) not like their area? Could you request places?

While I'm at it, what happened if you didn't show up for Corp Week?

Do anyone know if or when POP (The Passing Of A Patriarch) was made known to non-corp or corp on the field? I wasn't around in the "fog years". How did TWI explain to the masses of all those departures (leaders, corp, believers, etc.)?

Huh??? I'm blown away.... every time I think there nothing big I missed from TWI past, there comes another one. Time magazine? I've got get me a copy of this.

No one I knew every mentioned anything about this. And I remember when some believer was going to be on the Phil Donahou Show (it wasn't about the way or anything... in fact I don't know why he was going on), and some Corp was discussing how he had to watch out for Phil's tricks (I was still a "babe" so I didn't ask any questions). But that nothing compared to this.

I starting to get afraid to look at new threads, I might find out that there were old plans to put a BOD face on Mt. Rushmore.

I had no ideal all these things had happen. The more I read these threads the more questions (and answers) I have.

...........then, upon "recognition" (as opposed to "graduation"), in august 1975, they went to maine, as lc's, where they again were part of a "revival" which led to the whole "political wow" campaign centered around twi's attempt to get maine state senator, hayes gahagan, elected to the US senate.........a very controversial period in twi history, which almost cost vic his "501©3", religious organization tax-exempt status!...........because of "illegal" political activity by twi in gahagan's US senate campaign..........it also spawned twi's "blessings of liberty" class, taught by gahagan originally, and later "carjacked" by tom jenkinson, 6th corps grad, after gahagan lost that '76 US senate campaign........

Through out the years I spent with TWI they would mention problems with their tax status but they "hinted" at the cause to be if they were recognize as a non profit agency. This is the first I ever heard of this. For the sake those like me (or just me if everyone already knows or don't care), could you give a little more insight on this. Who is Gahagan and why did TWI get behind him? What did the TWI do that cause them to lose their tax-exempt status?

..........for whatever reason i'm not aware of, vic seemed to me to take some kind of perverse pleasure in manipulating and "playing" jimmy with his (vic's) sexual peccadilloes and predilections, thinking that jimmy and judi were somehow involved in or pre-disposed to "free love/sex" in the bay area revival of the late 1960's.........and the doop's suffered deeply at vic's hands because of this presumption on vic's part!!

Again, I was totally oblivious to this. In fact I never heard of Jimmy, Judi, Doop or heefner until this thread. What happen to Doop? How did he try to manipulate Jimmy?

It really makes me wonder what I was involved in and worse, got others into.

I have some things I alway wanted to know and figured this would be the best place to post.

How was the war fought in heaven?

Is masturbation a sin?

Is there life other than us according to the bible (I seen a documentary that called "aliens and the bible" and it confused me)?

Is suicide a sin? I always wanted to know because I heard it from several angles but nothing that document in scripture (just vague references).

Everyone seems so wound up, I think they really need to relax it all the way.....and take a deep breath......there, now repeat after me..."These things happen, these things happen, these things happen...."(repeat until completely relaxed)

These things happen... these things happen... these things happen... the way is always right... these things happen... I don't have to think the way will think for me... these things happen... I'm no good but the way is good... these thing happen... these thing happen...