A simple guy

You know all about drama don't you Mike? Sorry you've got such a hang up about the Way Corps, which I dropped out of, btw. I can't change my past. Keep accusing and fighting... your identity depends on it.

This is tedious, Mike. Have fun with your forum.

I answered that question once Mike. Perhaps you should reread the content of what I said to avoid the confusion. My question was asked of no one in particular. As far as how I worded my question, I find it hard to believe that only one person would ever make a statement like that.

How is Christ getting glorified in all of this?

Too funny. The last thread went 20 pages, I wonder what this one will get up to. I'm selling popcorn.

Mike, Taking a poll? I doubt if anything you say here is that innocuous. I already told you, I'm not biting, give it a rest.

Mike, While I appreciate the seemingly civil tone of your last post, at this point I'm not interested in discussing with you your slant on what VPW meant in any context, final teaching or otherwise. You wondered why I initially started talking to you, you were the only thing on this site that got my attention, I've been reading PFAL for quite some time and recently pulled out the books yet again for some things I was studying in the Word. I have to admit the other posters have been warm and welcoming, I may continue to post here if for no reason than to get to know them. Raf made a good point about PFAL earlier that I liked, PFAL did direct us to God's Word. With regard to this agenda I've seen in your posts since looking further here, as far as I'm concerned your credibility is shot and I'm not biting, I think there is too much of a hook in your words to do anything other than refute you - 2 Corinthians 4:2.

You and I have never talked Mike unless it was 25 years ago at ROA or something. And I didn't lie to you when I said I wasn't "ever really in a leadership position". I was a WOW family coordinator one year. Thats it, nothing higher. Frankly I don't really care whether you believe this. As to the rest of your post, my responses to you were just that, responses. You escalated the rhetoric when I brought up Are the Dead Alive Now. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're frustrated with me because I'm confident in what I have to say to you that's your problem. You still have a responsibility to accept reproof if there was any in it. As to me mixing soul and spirit, I didn't. Once again, perhaps you should reread the posts to alleviate the confusion.

Accusation, fault finding and laying guilt are not sonship rights and God doesn’t use them to motivate his children to know his Word. In fact, he gave his son so that we no longer have to reap the consequences of sin and guilt. Remember Romans – Shall Christ lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? Mike, you compared me to Craig Martindale. It’s interesting to me how guilt and accusation rolls off your fingertips as easily as it rolled off his tongue. My point to you hasn’t changed - the biggest part of having a renewed mind lies in knowing who one is in Christ. Your statements over the last couple pages make it quite clear that you still don’t have a clue what your identity is yet. If you did you would think twice about laying guilt at the feet of one whose life was paid for by the blood of Christ. My choice to know God’s Word comes from understanding the love he has for me. Why in the world would I want to allow a dishonest and accusative man be a part of that? Timothy was told to study to show himself approved unto God. Timothy was already approved of God, in Christ, why would Paul tell him this? Because the scriptures reveal the approval. Study to show himself approved unto God. In other words, study so you can know you are approved unto God. Quite a different approach from studying so God will approve of me. This is why you’re a dishonest workman Mike. Your identity, and therefore your knowledge of God’s approval of his children is still unclear to you. Oldiesman, I’ve seen enough of Mike’s heart to know who’s works he’s magnifying.

Hi Oldiesman, A person can magnify their own works above Christ even when those works are works of studying God's Word. The pharisees had this one down pretty good - John 5:18-39. A man can chose this path, don't demand it of me though.

Wordwolf, I'm flattered, thanks for the kind words. I was a little surprised to walk into all of this but it won't change God's Word ...or what Christ accomplished. What does that mean? "Wants to sit at the counter" Just curious, I don't remember saying that when I signed up.

Modaustin, I apologize if I've contributed to the squandered bytes here. Edit anything you see fit.

Mike, I've already said my piece with you. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote since you're confused regarding the content.

Mike, All who are born again have been given the nature of Jesus Christ. As such we need to make the choice to relegate all of our own nature to the grave and fully accept his identity, his accomplishments and his nature. It’s pretty clear in Romans if you still bother to read Romans. Our own works accomplish nothing that hasn’t already been accomplished in him. You’ve taken this direction to master these materials and made the accomplishment of mastering them your new identity. In essence your work to master these books has taken precedence over accepting what has already been done by Christ. And now you use this standard to judge your brothers in Christ. I study God’s Word to learn what’s been done for me, to learn who I am in Christ, not to earn some thing that wasn’t included in the new birth. You have to fight anyone who points this out to you because you lack confidence spiritually. You just cannot be wrong. The believer who knows they were a sinner doesn’t worry about admitting being wrong, flawed and coming up short. Their identity in Christ is more important to them than working for anything that wasn’t already given in Christ. What Christ accomplished isn’t enough for you. You have to find some way to make yourself more spiritual than the next guy. You have to find some way of getting closer to God because Christ just wasn’t enough for you. Your accusation of me not knowing God as well as I think I do is the epitome of this attitude, after all how could God be as close to me as he is to you considering how much harder you’ve worked, how much more you’ve obeyed him, how much more you’ve determined to do his will than I have. Am I unfit to speak God’s Word? Absolutely. I was so dead in sins I didn’t have the right to even speak the name of Jesus Christ. But now with his nature I have God dwelling within, and all your works won’t bring you any closer to him than I already am. You want to leave this alone, you want to ignore it, you want be confident that you are on the right track but you know that as hard as you try you’re always going to come up short and it drives you nuts to have it pointed out. So you’ll keep fighting, keep accusing and keep condemning others to make yourself feel like you're right. It’s really a pitiable position to be in. I sorrow for the bondage you will inflict on the immature believer who you manage to get your hooks into. Hi Belle, I'll take lots of both, thanks.

You're accusations of me don't change your own dishonesty toward God's Word. For someone with so little time to invest in this you sure have a lot to say. As far as what I've done wrong, I've never professed to having done anything right, quite the contrary. What I did profess was the one who makes us righteous. Go ahead ignore me, ignore what I've said, make the choice to continue with your dishonesty toward God, you don't hurt me in the process. Ultimately you deny what has been accomplished for you by Jesus Christ. Given the choice I'd much rather stand approved before him than you.

Ughhh... stuff always reminded me of what anifreeze must take like.

Raf, Much thanks, that one even has a real cork, probably is a good glass of champagne. Of course my preference leans toward cognac. A good glass of Hennesy XO :-)

Hi Bliss, Thanks again for the warm welcome. It wasn't my desire to come out swinging but I guess sometimes that's what happens.

Mike, Try it any way you want. I'm not debating these points with you. I posted some simple, clear statements from the collaterals that happened to contradict your speculations about God and His Word. Rather than honestly examine what you wrote and study the materials I offered you've chosen to accuse me of being unfit to speak God's Word. Rather than admit you took something out of context you've chosen to try to debate all around the subject. This is dishonest. I would think if you really respected the materials with the regard you profess you'd be thankful to see the accuracy of it. Of course that would mean you might have to change your mind. You'd rather stand firm on some vague ideas about what you think these materials say than admit that someone else actually noticed a contradiction in your doctrine. This is ignorant religion at it's most basic form. It's a good question, where did you learn what you believe? Where did you learn to be such a dishonest workman of God's Word? If you believe we're in a new administration then show why, using the materials you hold as your standard for truth. If you aren't able to do that yet than be an honest workman of God's Word and wait until you are able to show these things doctrinally. Don't throw out your speculations, ideas and feelings on a subject and get mad when someone actually tries to bring it back to the very standard you profess. Worse yet, throwing out your speculations, ideas and feelings as "cards" and expecting others to do the work of proving your speculations is not only dishonest but completely contrary to God's Word. We let his Word speak for itself and change our minds according to what it says. We shouldn't come up with preconceived ideas and go to God's Word to prove our thesis, which is what you've doing here.

It's true that you can make a religion out of anything. Your standard is yet another standard I fail to measure up to. Fortunately Jesus Christ handled that one for me as well. You seem more intent on finding someone who will swallow all that you have to say without question than you are in helping people come unto a knowledge of the truth. I don't equate throwing out speculative "cards" with leading someone to God's Word. When you're ready to trust in his accomplished works and stop relying on your own you might find the satisfaction your looking for. Straw dog signing out.

Hi Doojable, I've looked three times for the divine design link, I wanted to see whats posted. Where is it again?

Mike, I've never read a more convoluded, demeaning and condescending bunch of hogwash in my life, well...at least since I left TWI. Sorry for wasting your time, obviously you couldn't respond to the content of what I wrote so you chose to make me out to be some sort of a straw dog. I thought we might actually be able to discuss the reasons why you made the statements you did. I guess not. I was genuinely interested in this. Not anymore. That you chose to respond with personal attacks and insults is telling of your own lack of security in who you are and what you know.

Mike wrote: "There’s an interesting page in GMWD’s last chapter, “The Final Victory,” where Dr explains something that relates to all this. The first two paragraphs of that chapter read (with my bold fonts): “The great hope of the Christian Church is the return of Christ and our gathering together unto him. There are aspects of Christ’s return which we find most clearly explained by God’s rightly-divided Word. In order to understand the coming of Christ, we must also understand “the mechanics” of his coming. Jesus’ first coming began with his conception and birth and ended with his ascension, over thirty years later. There were many significant phases and events during this time. In this, the second coming is similar: it will also cover a period of time and encompass several significant phases and events. __ There are four basic events included in the times of the end, when Christ returns... "Your rejection of the idea that we could be in one of these early phases or events in the Appearing Administration is based on your pre-formulated theology which includes a pretty detailed timeline." I think you're confusing the "parousia" with the "sunteleia". From Are the dead alive now? "The four basic events (of the sunteleia) are 1) Christ's coming for His saints, 2) the events of the book of Revelation with Christ's coming with His saints, 3) the first and second resurrections, and finally 4) the end (telos) when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God." The first basic event is Christ's Coming for his saints (the parousia). The parousia has two basic phases. "1) Christ’s Return for His Church, The Body The Gathering Together (2 Thessalonians 2:1 “our gathering together unto him.” The gathering together affects only those who are born again of God during the age of the church of the Body, which age is the period between the day of Pentecost and the first part of the parousia." This phase doesn’t happen on the earth but in the air and Jesus Christ must personally be present at this event – according to Dr Wierwille’s explanation of what the parousia is here. The second basic phase is: "2) Christ’s Return with His Church. " Based on what’s written here, we cannot be in one of these early phases. The earliest phase of any of this is the gathering together, with Christ personally. People can still get born again so we must still be in the “age of the Church of the Body” which began on the day of Pentecost and ends with the gathering together (parousia). Food for thought.

Mike wrote: "I’ve toyed with the idea of a minor administration set up just for us grads in order for us to accomplish a goal, a job, related to the Return" We speak the Word, what other "job" do we have to accomplish that wasn't already accomplished by Christ?

The dead in Christ rise first, before we are gathered together in the air. According to 1 Thessalonians 4. Even if things here are figures of speech, which it appears you're relegating them to, the order of events still dictates those who are dead in Christ will need to rise first. It should be a simple thing to say whether or not this has happened. VPW didn't handle it this way in the university of life tapes which I recently listened to. You also wrote: "This idea of a “minor” administration is related to the idea I reported in my lengthy post about PFAL being ADDRESSED ONLY TO GRADS. I’ve toyed with the idea of a minor administration set up just for us grads in order for us to accomplish a goal, a job, related to the Return." This would seem to read that anyone who is exposed to the material of the class in this day and time, who wasn't around or alive when it was initially made available would not benefit from the contents of the class. What's more, where does Jesus Christ fit in all of this? Is he now not able to save to the uttermost? I know from experience that speaking in tongues is still part of the equation, I've seen someone start speaking in tongues, someone who'd been witnessed to off the street very recently. Where does this leave him? How does that fit with the principle that God would have ALL (without exception) men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth? There's still plenty of them around who haven't heard about Jesus Christ, who, once again I might add, is the real point to all of this.