JWitt

Thanks for the warm welcomes! I have yet to have the promised meeting with the youth leader. I went to church on Sunday (mainly for the sake of my son) and received much love and support from the people there including the minister. The youth leader was there and sat behind me, as all of my sons friends were sitting with us as a show of support. The youth leader and I exchanged friendly hellos and goodbyes and that was that. I believe our minister (Ken) was meeting him directly after church to discuss our "situation", but I havn't heard anything yet. I've been told "he's a busy man you know". Oh well I will patiently wait.

Quote: For example shortly after my ex moved out and I was officially "out" of TWI I had: - A car crash (not my fault) - Hurricane Charlie - The flu so bad I really did think I was going to die - Hurricane Frances - Sprained both my ankles- Hurricane Jean Shortly after I left: Went back to Australia to visit my parents (who I hadn't seen for two years because of TWI induced paranoia). Then one week after I got there my father dropped dead from a heart attack at the dinner table in front of myself, my mum and my two young children. I of course thought that it was all my fault because I had sinned against God and "stepped out of the protective walls of zion". Not long after that (approx 6 months) I suffered a mis-carraige after becoming pregnant within a month of re-marrying. This was followed by a dnc gone wrong which punctured my bowel in several places and left me bed ridden for weeks. Again my fault. I have since had two further miscarraiges. Although as time goes by I have learned to put these events in perspective (thankfully). Now I look at the timing of my father's death as an opportunity for me to have spent some time with him before he passed away, which wouldn't have happened had I still been in TWI. Also I got to be there for my mother who was devestated and would have been alone when it happened had it not been for my visit. It has definitely taken a lot of time and counselling though to get me to this better perspective. I can't recommend counselling for people coming out of a cult more highly. It is an absolute necessity.

I'll bite Bliss. What did they say?

Quote BUT, I still find myself jumping back into that “annoyed” mode or hateful and judgemental TWIt way of thinking occasionally….especially when I’m very tired. Do you? How do you handle it when those thoughts creep in? Or are you totally “over it”? wink2.gif [/i Yes and I have had much counselling to get rid of my angry attitude. I have found it very helpful in dealing with the current situation I am in at my church. I refuse to jump back into that pharasitical attitude that we were all taught to adopt in TWI. I now try to look at things from the other persons perspective more before going on the attack. That is not always easy. Like I said in another topic I am currently dealing with the youth minister calling me a heretic because I don't believe in the trinity. Before I get too much on my high horse I remind myself how fiercely I used to "defend" my TWI doctrine while in TWI. We are all human. It is a good saying that "you catch more flys with honey". We will never soften peoples hearts by trying to shove our beliefs down their throats, it will actually have the opposite effect. We soften their hearts by overlooking what we perceive to be their shortcomings and treating every person with love and respect, and by meeting people where they are at.

At the risk of sounding like the a-hole lots of folks think I am, Your post presupposes a number of things, ie: That it's possible to change the organization by the efforts of a few of it's members That there still are "corps" around that care about the outfit enough to try And - not the least important - that the whole pathetic, ill-conceived, debased institution is anything worth "saving" at all. Personally, I'm not convinced of any of those points... George you wouldn't be a cynic by any chance would you?

Quote from ChasUFarley "I thought I'd found a decent church - they were trinitarian, but didn't shove it down your throat. I could deal with it but still cringed at times when they wrongly divided the Word. Then the pastor got canned for plagerism - oh, boy! The interim pastor is very trinitarian - he does shove it down your throat. That's when Chas went *poof* from that church. Moral of the story: Even within the same denomination there are various degrees of zealous twits - some who drink the Kool Aid, and others who don't... it's up to you to decide what you can put up with. " LOL Chas. The good thing is that the majority of people in this church don't really give a hang one way or the other whether I believe in the trinity or not. But like you say there's always going to be someone. I thought about giving up and running away, but instead I decided to try and practice what they preach about love and patience and see where it leads. If I leave it just gets swept under the carpet just like it did when we all left TWI. If I stay I get a chance to show what the love of God truly is. I don't intend on compromising what I believe, but I do intend on being wise on what I say and how I say it. The minister of the church seems to genuinely want to work things out. I am having a meeting with the youth minister to try and work things out with him too. mstar1 quote: You are thinking of going back? After what that guy said to your son and accused you of? Don't worry I don't intend to let him walk all over me, and I WILL expect an apology from him, which I am told he is willing to give. So as I said I will wait and see. I definitely intend on becoming a hell of a lot more involved in the youth group activities. :) Regards, JWitt

I just had the minister from the church come for a visit to "smooth things over". He asked what he could do to "work things out" so that we would stay at the church. So it seems like an olive branch has been offered which is a good sign. I asked if he would get together with myself, my husband and the youth leader in question to see if we can come to an amicable co-existance given our differences. He agreed to that, so maybe we don't need to go church hunting afterall.

Hi everyone Thanks for your great responses. Unfortunately as I live in a different time zone (Australia) I was asleep in my bed when you were all busily typing away. I have to go to work now, but I would love to reply to some of your posts when I get home tonight (my time). Thanks again guys it helps to talk to people who know where I'm coming from and don't think I'm from the planet Mars or something. JWitt

Quote from Johniam "My family went to a Presbyterian church after TWI. They believed and taught the trinity. We just didn't bring it up. Neither did they other than occasionally during a sermon. We got along fine." That was initially my theory Johniam. Guess it didn't work out this way at this church. Maybe I'll try that Presbyterian church down the road.

Quote from The Evan "When you have a problem like this come up, first thing to do is talk with the offending party. Let them grill you, if they find it necssary, just to ease their mind. Usually, reassuring the person that you believe Jesus to be the divine, only begotten Son of God will set them at ease. (If that's what you believe). I have tried on numeros occasions to talk to the people involved to no avail. The youth leader seems only interested in "saving" my son and the other "youth" from me. It would be funny really if my son wasn't getting so hurt by it. I even wrote them a letter very gracefully stating that I did not wish to cause contention etc. I gave him an article from the wikipedia encyclopedia concerning the debate over the non-trinitarian's status. I got no response to my letter. Oh well, onwards and upwards, as they say. :) Here is the wikipedia article: Debate over Nontrinitarianism's Christian status Although most nontrinitarians identify themselves as Christian, many trinitarians disagree. Their counter-claim is that the doctrine of the Trinity is so central to the Christian faith that to deny it is to embrace a "different gospel" and to set onesself against the Church's account of its own history and identity, inasmuch as the gospel concerns who Jesus Christ is and what he did. Non-trinitarians counter that theirs is the more historically orthodox position, since the doctrine of the trinity was not solidified until 325 CE, and thus it is not they who embraced a "different gospel". See also Great Apostasy. Others believe that the issue is not central, and a Christian can have one or the other belief without this affecting his or her position significantly. Christianity is typically understood as tripartite Monotheism in its God-concept, although the theological and philosophical work needed to differentiate this from tritheism is significant. This difficulty is so great that non-Christians who make the attempt are often left with a view of Christianity as being a faith of tritheism or quadratheism when dealing with Roman Catholics and their focus on Mariology. This is not the case, when the Cappadocian Fathers developed the idea of Trinity, some scholars get the general sense that the developers of the trinity were themselves not entirely convinced of its truth. However, some framework was needed to reconcile the centrality of Jesus for the Christian experience with the figure of YHWH or "Abba" of which Jesus was a representative, the best option at that time was this trinity idea. In any discussion of early Christianity, it is important to remember that a small sect like Christianity needed to show itself as quantifiably different from that which came before and the surrounding culture in general. In order to accomplish this, a standard theology was needed. With this theology, the group could define itself and rally around a central cause or figure. This made the faith strong, but after the faith grew beyond the danger of being destroyed by Rome, it also made the faith somewhat myopic when it came to dissenting views. Although some denominations require their members to profess faith in the trinity, most mainline denominations have taken a "hands-off" policy on the subject of the trinity, realizing that since personal study and free thought have been encouraged for years, it is not surprising that some of the conclusions reached would be nontrinitarian. The recognition here is that the trinity is tool for pointing to a greater truth. In other words, Christianity has historically sought to look beyond its docrtines (see Apophasis) to the greater truth they are intended to address, IE God. It is not uncommon for a Methodist, Presbyterian, or Episcopalian to profess non-trinitarian views, even among the clergy. The response from the governing bodies of those denominations is usually neutral, so long as the disagreement is voiced in respect. At times segments of Nicene Christianity reacted with ultimate severity toward nontrinitarian views. At other times, especially among Protestants, the same views have been accommodated. See the related section of the Unitarianism article for a more detailed discussion.

LOL George. Rejoice Quote: "What has been a real problem is that VPW made the Trinity an issue; that if we believed that Jesus was God, then our salvation was for naught----in fact, we couldn't be really saved. Says who?? I agree with you, but these people I am dealing with believe this in the reverse. My husband and I have not once mentioned the trinity in the 12 months at this church because we believe there are more important issues such as getting to know the people we will be spending eternity with, and learning to love each other with the love of God no matter where people are at. Jesus Christ didn't hang out with holier than thou religious nuts, he hung out with people who were publicans and sinners etc. I am probably getting what I deserve anyway, it is a good lesson for me. I know I played the part of a judgemental, high and mighty pharasee during my time in the TWI under the not so reverend Martindale's rule.

I left TWI in 1998. Was in since 1985. Married to Way Corps. Separated while in residence in F22 under horrible circumstances and moved to NZ where I met and married my current husband of 7 years. It took me until 2005 (12 months ago) to finally be confident and calm enough to try and go to a church in the hope of at least having some fellowship with other christians. We decided not to mention the trinity subject because we didn't want to start a s##t fight and didn't want to offend anyone. We just wanted to keep it simple and focus on the common ground that we had with these people. Everything went great for 12 months until my 14 year old son went to a camp with the youth group and let slip the awful truth. Our family doesn't believe in the trinity. Ohh the horror it created! A heretic in the midst! The youth leader proceded to tell my shocked son that I was preaching heresies, and that I couldn't possibly be a christian if I believed such a thing. After one of my son's friends, who witnessed the rather savage attack , came to me to find out what all the fuss was about. I was then accused of trying to lead the youth astray, and of being a wolf among the flock. Why am I not shocked. What makes seemingly lovely people turn into such savages. It was like having my country co-ordinator in my face all over again. I wish to God that I did believe in the trinity, but TWI did a good job of making sure that teaching stuck good. Has anyone else had this experience trying to fit into mainstream churches after leaving TWI?