potato

in pfal, vpw took the example of a sad accident to forever brand people with a giant red A (for apistia) if something bad happens to them.

it's the story of the mother with the young son who was hit by a car on the way home from school. the mother wasn't there to pick him up, and she was apparently under much stress in her life and worried about taking care of her son. the boy died, according to the story (which may or may not have ever happened, given vpw's character) and vpw pronounced that it was the mother's fear that killed her son.

therefore, (by using this awful circumstance to build upon doctinally) if something bad happens to you or someone you're responsible for, it happened because you have fear. he further taught that fear is the opposite of believing, so that if you don't get what God promised, it's because you're afraid.

I have found like so many other's that this is not the case.

fear is bad, yes. it causes us to sometimes make good choices, sometimes bad ones, and sometimes it paralyzes us when we should move. it does not prevent God from taking care of us, it just makes his job a little harder (but hey, he's GOD) and the evidence of bad things in our lives doesn't point to fear as the cause. if it was as black and white simple as they teach in TWI, vpw wouldn't have died so young from cancer.

woohoo!!! awesome usage of the word sodomize. I have to thank whoever it was that brought sodomize into common usage, it's such a great word.

polar bear! thanks polar bear

belle, rascal, kit... thank you!

I didn't leave TWI because I hated it. I left it because certain people within had committed acts so heinous that I cannot forgive them unless they have remorse, which they do not... BECAUSE they're behavior was encouraged, underwritten, dictated, and even celebrated up the WAY TREE. the leaders are not worthy of respect, IMO. some few are there because they love God's people, but I'd say from my experience the higher you go the more rare those individuals are, and that plenty of FCs are just petty dictators. this hierarchy was shaped by vpw and his values became their values, and the fact that the value system was corrupt to begin with made it so much easier for lcm to twist it the way he did.

my first twig was pretty sweet IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THEY CONSTANTLY TRIED TO WEAR ME DOWN TO THE POINT I'D GIVE IN AND GO WOW.

my second twig was pretty sweet IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THEY GOT BEHIND LCM 100% AND DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO MAKE SURE WE ALL PUT OUR HEARTS WHERE THEIRS WERE.

then I went wow. after that, for 15 years, I can say I only had one decent FC couple who seemed to care about people. they were brand-spanking new corps grads. if they're still around, I doubt they're still sweet, which makes me sad. the politics of the organization make it impossible to stay sweet AND follow the leader.

and waysider, thanks as well, I didn't mean to leave you out but you posted while I was composing this long ramble.

yeah, if they have RC's all over, HQ and a training campus, publications AND run commercials inviting people to come check out the SWEET fellowship, it LOOKS like a worldwide church, and as long as you don't get close, it SMELLS like a church, and therefore is worthy of tax exemption.

Based upon the truth that the real you is the Christ in you

oldiesman, that is something TWI asserted, yes.

however, I am most assuredly real in every category, as is everyone else I meet (christian or not) and your assertion above is contradictory to the TWI doctrine of the threefold man, which I like better. it at least makes some scriptural sense... so... the body is real. the soul (mind and heart) is real. the spirit (christ in you) is real.

your quote traces its roots back to a TWI doctrinal teaching on the levels of body/soul/spirit, that body should be at the bottom of the hierarchy and spirit at the top, which further led to an attitude of elitism and superiority that somehow shines forth from your statements.

reading the bible, I've never seen anywhere where God said don't use your mind, that it's not real and you can't trust your experience and ability to think. from what I remember, and I don't have time to crack open my bible right now, the verses that state you should cast down imaginations etc. have to do with a humbe attitude (which self-awareness definitely does not preclude) and those about subjugating the flesh are just common sense instructions (and also don't preclude self-awareness). in order to change habits, you have to actively think and compare and decide to change. if I was mean or lied or made bad decisions before, it takes active thought to change that, not just a denial of self.

the real me is the one I'm finding while stripping off the false doctrines of TWI and bringing the different parts they taught me to deny back into balance with one another.

I guess it would cut into the retirement pot to have to pay back corporate taxes on all their ill-begotten gains if they got rid of people.

I imagine that it doesn't cost much at this point to run the "ministry" aspect of the business. people actually pay to go get indoctrinated and work as slaves in the corps program, staff are slaves who work long hours for almost nothing, the properties are owned outright, and the fellowships on the field are virtually cost-free. RC's don't make much, and get no benefits, so they certainly generate more income than they use, enough to pay the slaves their allowance.

but even without the facade of a ministry, I think they'd figure a way out to sustain the retirement plan. they'd just rather not take the financial hit.

all I was really trying to say, though, is that TWI isn't going away because they don't need tithes. they could dwindle down to the point where there are no home fellowships and TWI wouldn't be hurt. numbers just don't matter, all that matters is maintaining the illusion that they're a ministry so they get the corporate compensation package that they are clearly not worth.

the stuff I'm rambling about may not be new to others, but it's new to me and I find it all fascinating, yet disgusting and discouraging.

I got to visit with people still "in" (barely) this week who have some good connections, and I've come away with the realization that twi will not ever go away.

it's not a ministry.

it's a retirement plan for a small, select group of "chosen ones".

here's the unsubstantiated (and distilled) information I gathered:

the trustee cabinet salary is in the 70k/year range, on which they are, interestingly enough, able to purchase nice cars and homes without debt.

TWI does not need ABS. the organization has enough investments that it is self-reliant and can thrive quite well indefinitely without tithes, without meetings, without ministers, without a flock, without classes, without research. ministers, meetings, and members are only to present a pretty veneer of authenticity on the "christian ministry".

the services and fellowships are a sham. there is no longer any research nor is research on the field permitted, the only approved teaching topics at fellowships and STS are from VPW's published works, so basically all the present teachings (or is it still "present truth"???) is a regurgitation of plagerized material compiled 30+ years ago.

cop-out is really a loaded term. I remember well all that term represented when used for anyone who'd ever left, no matter if they faded away or left during an explosion.

if they could be made an example of to discourage the rest of us from the risk of speaking up, the cop-outs and their pathetic, devilish, destitute lives surely served the purpose of keeping us in check. the longer you considered the words of "the teacher" regarding these copped out people, the harder it was to consider leaving, or questioning, or speaking up.

patrick and sarah,

reading your original post I caught a bit of a perception that maybe you are doing what I have been doing the past 2 months.

I left twi in september. I was in for 20 years. once I left, I was left with a huge uncertainty about the doctrines twi holds near and dear, especially as they were presented by LCM in the 90s.

the beginning doctrines, easy to swallow: jesus christ is not god, the word of god is your only rule of faith and practice.

that was fine, plenty of good times.

the doctrines became grievous pretty early on for me: you can't have god's protection unless you are tithing a miminum of 10%. if you want to understand spiritual things, you ought to give 15% or more. the suggestion of the man of god is the same as a commandment of god. and one of the best, not out through "official" channels but one that was taught by men at the RC level after a certain BC started stealing ABS to fund an extramarital affair: a sour marriage is the result of the wife withholding sex from her husband.

the good times ended pretty quick and were no more, and in no way can offset the harm that was done.

so I was left in a state of confusion... was it all wrong? is jesus God? is the bible true? is there a God? I needed to work through all those things I'd taken for granted based on a teaching of twi and determine whether I believe them or whether I now hold no opinion or a different opinion.

I have no faith in anything beyond this: God is good....

but I knew that well before twi.

twi is no place for me or anyone who thinks. I'm glad you recognize it's no longer for you. it's pretty flat and lifeless these days and I'm relieved and happy I left.

I can say with quite a bit of confidence that if I'd quit before I went WOW I could absolutley look back to beautiful memories and nothing but. once I made that commitment, though, it went steadily downhill.

oh, oldiesman, WAY TO GO (har har) on selectively quoting motherof2 out of all meaningful context.

(edited to correct faulty recollection)

And that led to the dogma that if you did bad things-you had never been "saved " in the first place.

was this a dogma at one time? I don't remember this one, I'm more familiar with the dogma that a carnal christian is like a dog returning to its vomit, used in particular to invoke judgement by the masses against people who "turned their backs on the ministry" (read, got kicked out or left voluntarily because they disagreed) which would sink them so low that they'd be as corrupt as seed of the serpent, just doing the will of the devil all day long against the ministry.

d'oh!

I should learn to read. I'm too easily confused today!!!

motherof2, I echo what the rest said. I myself can't imagine the pressure your dad was put under to join, and I've seen it in action... but from an entire family of the size of yours, unfathomable. he is indeed a strong man.

I left when Lcm demanded loyalty to him. 1987 or there abouts

somehow I was shielded from that. I didn't hear it until I had a few years of indoctrination behind me. I think I first heard it when I went wow in 1990.

you know, the bible is the final word on all of life and godliness. that was the open door they had to get into ever crevass of our lives. finances were taught. if I remember right, they were also part of wow training. owe no man anything was the commandment that enabled twi leaders to feel they could snoop into every aspect of our lives.

try working for a legalistic FC-owned business and not having the details in your life criticised... the car you drive, your apartment, etc. they know how much you make, and how much you should give back to the ministry that's given you so much *sniff* (single tear rolls down cheek).

I think the FC's were directed to teach controlling your finances/ABS at one point, because it was taught ad nauseum until one felt guilty for wanting to keep a dollar for an ice cream cone because it wasn't an effing "need".

Personally, that would have offended me and no matter who taught it I would have rejected the teaching - and I was considered leadership!

you must have been gone by the time Craig Almighty laid that on the people in those exact, yes I said exact, words. the teaching may have been around implicitly before that although I don't recall it, but lcm most definitely delivered it in that form with scripture build up to back it up.

yes, we who believe do help people, with or without the mog's permission. however, twi teaching made me constantly doubt God's voice in me. it actually became the antithesis of what I thought twi stood for, which was walking spiritually, not by law. we had law. lots of it, and it changed as the "Word" changed "for our day and time" as "as given to the man of God for his people".

excuse me while I go throw up now.

Ummm..... actually they DID teach about investment skills and money management as well as time management. :unsure: Not only did they teach these things, people were checked up on, micro-managed and even M&A for not following those teachings.

yep, my finances were combed through for months because I was in debt and couldn't take an AC special until I was out.

investment strategies were taught, and taught aggressively.

1. invest in the ministry (give us all your money)

2. start your own business

3. don't bother to invest or save for retirement, you won't need to if you do 1. and 2. above.

I'm looking at $800 month at retirement from my SS benefits.

thanks twi.

seriously, dude. I did wonder where I would go and THERE WAS GREASESPOT!!

I love the internet. and virtual rebel cells.

same here. nice people make me want to run away fast.

thanks for the reminder, dooj.

we did get derailed into discussion about whether people had the right to remember experiencing their time with twi as "bad" instead of being required to give a fair and balanced view.

so, back to topic, I'm so glad to have been healed in this category so I can tell leadership to stick it! I don't even have to go search the scriptures!! nya-nya-nya, BOT et al.

rascal, careful lest ye be attacked again.

the requirement seems to be not that you are positive, but that you are neutral.

good thing, too, because all that would leave you is the twi myspace group.

however, I say phooey to neutrality. I'm not neutral about my life and I don't work for fox news.

Actually, most of the ones I have heard of who said those words were leaders in twi, vice posters here.

There have been several who said those things here...my observation is NOT just about one particular poster or another.

It is just a general observation...

mine is general as well.

it's quit possible that men in general had a better experience in twi and there's a few who simply cannot reconcile the idea of rape and leadership-mandated abuse or spiritual corruption in those who plagerized and lied with what they saw through their rosy-colored glasses.

after all, people got saved.

I'm just not sure there was a justifiable end to justify their means.

mark, I noticed and refrained from pointing fingers although it's getting more difficult :blink:

unfortunately most of them already have spawn.

dove, I need to point out to you, you didn't join this thread sharing your experiencing and accepting others. your first paragraph assumes that victims don't search the scriptures and comes across as an attack:

"One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth. If the earnest desire was and I believe it was to be obedient to God then why did people not do the one basic thing we heard from day one starting in PFAL The Word of God is the Will of God, I don't know of anyone that was around past a coffee break, that was not taught that to find out what God's Will was you needed to search and know the scriptures, that is how you find out "how to be obedient to God". How many gazillion times did we hear The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. So why was it not? Was It Is Written just a slogan on the wall? Further when common sense caused a HUH? moment in our life, why were we to abandon years of teaching only to accept anything as truth?"

another thing... I had no idea that neutrality toward twi was a requirement for posting here. I hate twi because it's a sham, a broken cistern. its leaders are corrupt. I have no neutrality toward it and maybe I never will. I'm decidedly anti-twi. if it's not a requirement, rascal is entitled to speak negatively toward it if she likes. I can't remember her saying "everyone" experienced what she did, so why do you insist she's trying to speak for anyone except herself and others with similar experiences? I don't feel like she's attempting to speak for me, she just needs to be allowed to have her own voice. hopefully you can accept that a lot of us who were never allowed to speak would really just like to be listened to without being judged and flogged by stupid scriptural platitudes or held to some empty twi expectation that we'll all be so expert in the scriptures that when evil crosses our path we'll be able to always repel it.

one of the popular teachings I remember is that WE are not ignorant of satan's devices. so if a whole group of people is busy practicing evil or just keeping their mouths shut about it, or getting kicked out and lied about because they pointed out satan in our midst, how in the world can we the weaker among us from falling victim to satan's devices?

good heavens.