Mary Cate

I remember the weeks before, the day of his death and being at the man's funeral.

I lived with Don and Wanda Wierwille that year as their interim Corps housekeeper. One of many things I learned that year was that VP was a horrible father. I had developed a real dislike of the guy before he died.

When he was laying in his motorcoach death bed, Don, Wanda and the kids would go to sit with Mrs. W everynight for almost a week. They seemed to be in such pain over a man that used them like props for his ministry/business. When VPW would come to Don and Wanda's...well... I'll just leave it at he really pizzed me off at how he treated his own family. What everyone saw on stage at the ROAs was a good show but not real.

The night Don and Wanda came home and told me the old fart had just died, I thought: Good riddance.

As I watched them lower the casket into the ground at his funeral, I was relieved.

I knew my friend whom he'd been trying to molest all year would be left alone. Maybe she would not be sick all of the time anymore.

I knew I wouldn't have to sit next to the basturd when he'd come for dinner. He somehow thought all of us housekeeper types were just interchangeable, non-human devices and that our thighs were his personal hand rests.

Dead men keep their hands to themselves. I was very relieved that he was in the ground with 6 feet of good Mother Earth keeping him in his place.

TWI was viewed as being anti-Jewish by some outside of TWI. If VPW, the leader of TWI, was so totally clean of being anti-Jewish, how did others outside of TWI get the idea he was himself anti-Jewish and was promoting to others anti-Jewish beliefs?

In about 1981, TAKIT (a TWI band) did a show at a theater in the Twin Cities here in Minnesota. I remember there being quite a few people picketing the building carrying signs about TWI being anti-Jewish. At the time, I had no idea why the picketers would think such a thing, but I wondered.

A couple of years later when I read "13th Tribe", "Myth of the 6M" and heard teachings and comments in the Way Corps, I realized why the picketers were at the theater. Even while still involved with TWI, I had come to realize that TWI was anti-Jewish.

Having been very interested in the Holocaust and Hitler's role in inciting people to murder the Jews, I'd done a lot of reading, had taken a course on Totalitarian governments and written a paper on the subject. This was in high school before I even heard of TWI.

Having seen pictures of emaciated Jews, reading of the horrible things that happened, it didn't matter to me if there were 10 Jews or 6M Jews treated and exterminated that way. VP and TWI lost lots of respect and credibility in my eyes. It was part of my process of getting rid of the rose colored glasses that I had formerly used to view TWI.

When VP first started his "ministry", he didn't have much luck with winning people his own age to be his blindly obedient followers. VP's age group had some life experience and healthy skepticism under their belts and weren't fooled by his snake oil sales pitch.

At my age, 47, if a stranger told me to give them money so I could take a bible class that would change my whole life, I would tell them to go away. At age 20, I didn't have the life experience, the learned skepticism and good judgment I now have. At 20, I believed the stranger that offered me this "magic class" for a price. I paid my hard earned $100 and took the magic class because I thought the "salesperson" would deliver the goods they'd promised. It took time and hard won maturity, but I found out the "goods" were really a load of crap.

Yeah, OM and clones can argue that we gave this power to TWI. But most of us were kids. VP figured that out and that's why he targeted our age group rather than 30, 40 and 50 somethings. We were naive, looking for "truth". We were the "Target Market" for VP's slickly packaged and promoted "truth, love and goodness" tour. Remember, it was the cool and cute guys in Pressed Down, Shaken Together and Running Over, not Lawrence Welk Running Over.

Do I feel like a maroon for getting involved with TWI when I was 20? No. I was a good hearted young person who wanted to learn the truth. I was taken advantage of by middle aged men who knew what they were doing. Shame on them and shame on anyone who continues to defend these thieves, rapists and all around sadistic control freaks.

"What is the real purpose of this website? All I see is bashing, slamming and cut downs. If this ministry was really that bad why continue to talk about it. I know if I had a bad experience with a group (which I have) I might talk about for a little bit, but then its history! Why the constant talk??"

How about if this website has as many purposes as there are posters?

How about if this is the only place some people have found where they can unload years of pain, grief, guilt, fear, shame, etc, etc, etc? I don't care how many times someone might say the same thing, if it helps them hurt a little less, heal a little more, they should say it a thousand times.

Wonder,

Why are you asking and why do you care?

She was on staff at Camp Gunnison when I left in '88. She had married Roger Paschke (sp). I think they had one child or she was pregnant when I left.

Of course I'll keep Loren in my prayers.

IMO, that whole org. needs to have their priorities adjusted and get reminded that they are dealing with human beings. I'll be praying for light to shine on the darkness.

DMiller and Vickles,

We could do a Minnesota get together at the Spam museum in Austin!

Not really.

I am serious about at least the three of us getting together. Should we start a Minnesota get together thread to generate some other interest?

I was looking at the map. One of youse guys is heading from northeast of me, other from southeast of me. I could meet you east of here someplace in St. Paul if you want. My humble abode is all right as a meeting place as well.

Papa Murphys is around the corner. I like the gourmet veggie. What do you guys like?

Radar,

I didn't see a private topic from you here, but it showed up on my email so I emailed you back at the addy you provided.

Me a Stepford wife... Heh, heh, heh. It cracked me up that people at HQ used to say I must have had such a great year of "deliverance" my interim year because I finally gave in to letting some people smear make up on my face and cut my hair. Wanda really meant well and did what she thought was loving. I guess people thought I looked nice. I had become so alienated from my true self from all of TWIs harping that I quit feeling much of anything...except occasional disgust towards most of the HQ hotshots. I used to think if they were so damn spiritually perceptive and aware, I wondered why they didn't perceive what big maroons I thought they were that they didn't have a clue as to how empty and detached I felt. When I did feel pain, it was horrible. I was around all of the supposedly spiritual giants, but none of them had a clue - except Wanda... sometimes... but she didn't really understand it. When I knew her, she still had a heart and cared for people. Don't know if she changed over the years.

Radar, I know you didn't intend any offense, and I have taken none from you. I appreciated hearing from you and would like to hear from you again. But you are right. The men and women at HQ and leadership elsewhere did try to mold us into what they thought we should be. We acted the parts they trained us to. I had a reputation for being able to cook, sew, was good with kids. With their indepth spiritual perception they knew I needed to be groomed into being something that fit their agenda.

If they were so damn perceptive they'd have known that I had no aspirations, interest for being a ministry leader's bi+ch (or as they called it wife). I would have been much happier as a Way Builder, on grounds crew, working their farms so they could have entered the 20th century and made some money. But then only if I hadn't seen the ugly, rotten truth that was the core of their organization. They weren't helping us, nurturing us - they were exploiting us.

My experiences with men of the ministry were pretty nasty. All of these great holy men thinking I would hop into bed with them. When I'd walk away, push them away, whatever it took, I'd get some twisted version of why it was unloving of me to do so. Rebellion and witchcraft, blah, blah, and more blah. I didn't care. Looking back I marvel that I was so unfazed by their behavior at the time. I think because I knew they were creepy heartless, soulless axxholes, it was just another attempt at trying to chip away at my dignity, my boundaries.

Even when I was married and working on staff at Gunnison, one of the early TWI revs that people here still seem to adore and think was one of the good guys tried to corner me in the kitchen of the building where the cafeteria was on the first floor and teachings were held on the second floor. This was before they built the moneypit they probably use for an auditorium now. Corps Night was being taught upstairs and I was working downstairs putting away all of the leftover food they brought back from their elk hunting trip. This guy was pretty drunk. I pushed him away a couple of times and just went back to doing my work. He eventually wandered off. Probably to see who else he could hit on. In hindsight, I should have beat the crap out of him when I had the chance to keep him from trying to hit on someone else that night. He was probably too drunk to remember anyway.

More anger I guess I still didn't know I had. Just trying to get some things out to let the possibility of new hopes in. My therapist has told me to write about these things, but I never could. I will probably write a lot now that some dam somewhere inside of me seems to have sprung some leaks, cracked, broken, whatever.

Thanks, Radar, DMiller, Ex, Cindy, Zshot, Karmic, krys, anyone else who has answered and is praying. I want to keep doing the next thing so I can keep doing the next thing. Just doing my spring cleaning so there is room for God to put new dreams, desires, songs in my heart.

Who does Tim the Meany answer to? Doesn't Loren have a legal guardian, family member to advocate for him?

If I were in Loren's shoes, I'd rather die at 72 with a smile on my face doing something I enjoy like smoking a fine cigar after dinner than be diminished to being treated like a child without choices. Loren's an adult.

After the ACLU is done with their Ten Commandments silliness up there, maybe they could file a suit on Loren's behalf so he can exercise one of the few choice's he has left and smoke a few cigars.

Doesn't Loren have the legal right to smoke? He has the legal right to buy tobacco it seems like he should have the legal right to smoke it.

Glad to hear you are doing well.

Praying for many years of good health ahead. Looking forward to hearing you tell us about holding some grandbabies.

Peace and joy,

Mary

Thanks everyone for your kind responses, prayers and support.

I have visited GS since it started, but seldom posted and don't think I ever posted much that was revealing of my true feelings, pain, TWI after effects, preTWI experiences that ushered me towards TWI and then compounded the effects of TWI madness.

Zshot,

My furry four legged children have been the loves of my life that have kept me functioning, been my comfort, my immediate family, my cheerleaders, my teachers. I have always adopted dogs from rescue orgs. or shelters that were on death row - the ones no one else wanted that were on their way to the final injection. I fostered dogs for a rescue org. I always took the ones no one else would take on- the severely traumatized ones that everyone else assumed euthanasia was the most humane option to end their emotional pain. It was a great substitute and medicine for me after the divorce. I couldn't help a husband, but I had amazing success at helping these little creatures.

I would do anything to reach the severely abused and traumatized. Sometimes they'd come to my home and couldn't be touched. They'd spend days cowering under a table, not eating. I'd let them stay there and not try to pick them up. Sometimes I'd sleep on the floor in my sleeping bag a few feet away from them night after night. I wouldn't push them, but let them come to me. The miracle, the reward was the morning that I might wake up with them sleeping at the foot of my sleeping bag, a few more days and they'd curl up behind my knees, still outside of the sleeping bag but touching it. And I'd swear I'd hear the angels sing the morning that I'd wake up with them sleeping in my sleeping bag curled up by my chest. I so understood how God thought Adam could be perfectly content in the garden taking care of the animals.

The animals I have adopted are the twinkle in my eye. One of my sisters begged me to go for therapy after my divorce. I said I was fine and didn't need it. At that time I had my black lab. She had been with me for the latter half of my marriage. She slept with me, hiked with me, went places with me. I told her things I couldn't tell humans. She died a year after my divorce. When she died, I couldn't say I was fine anymore. I was a wreck. I could barely function so I did go for therapy.

The therapy helped and has continued to help, challenge me and make me keep growing beyond what I went for in the first place.

krysilis,

You are right. It has helped immensely to write all of this down. To share it with a group of people that have been to some of the places I have been. It is terrifying to tear down some walls and let people see some of the secrets that one lives with and tries to make sense of, learn from, get out from underneath the burden of. But writing it down in a forum like this also exposes me to judgment by some. That kept me from posting what I needed to for quite awhile. I finally got to the point where I was willing to take the risk of judgment for the prayer, understanding and support I know I need to keep heading in the direction I need to go.

Thanks everyone for the hugs, the smiles, the prayers, the words. I have to post in "doses" or I get too overwhelmed by it all. My therapist says I am incredibly stubborn and determined and have defied the statistics and profiles for someone with my experiences/background. She has asked me what it is that keeps me going. The only response I have ever been able to give is that I just do the next thing. When it comes to mind that I need to do something, I start. I do as much as I can, take a break and make a committment to start again and always do the next thing.

Once again, thank you, thank you, thank you all.

I need some prayer... Haven't prayed much over the last few years because... well, I just didn't. Over the last month or so I have been reading the prayer requests here and slowly found myself praying for more and more people here and getting interested in the outcomes. It got me to think I should consider having confidence in prayer again.

Yesterday, 30April, would have been my 17th wedding anniversary had I remained married. I have been divorced for 4 years. Years previous to this, the only thought I have had on that anniversary was "Good Riddance, thank God". My ex is not a horrible person, he just had some issues that he couldn't face. I spent too many years trying to help him and ended up compensating, living to make his live happy and, well... another story...probably another prayer request.

Back to the anniversary thing. This year, 30April was an important day because of a huge company meeting and milestone recognition for the company I work for, so I saw the date for weeks in advance and it made me think about the significance of that date in my personal life on a regular basis. More thought time brought up issues that have left me angry. It suddenly hit me how angry I was yesterday and I don't like feeling this way.

I was married for 13 years. Thank goodness I like to work. I worked very hard during the marriage. I put my then husband through college, scrimped and saved so he wanted for nothing, bought a home, worked hard to remodel home, etc, etc. I hoped that we'd have a family someday. The thing that I feel angry about today is that I never got that family. I have a nephew graduating from high school who I'll be spoiling with gifts. I plan the weekends that I "want to go somewhere" to see my other nieces and nephews for special events - their basketball games, skating performances, music recitals, birthdays, etc. I see my colleagues at work with pictures of their children on their desks, hear them talk about their kid's activities, antics. Until yesterday, I would think how happy I was for them, love to hear them talk about their kids and smile about how cute the kids are. I'd tell my direct reports it was all right with me if they took a longer lunch break to have their spouse bring the kids to work to eat in the cafeteria and show them around where mom or dad works. I have never been jealous, just enjoyed seeing the kids, my direct reports and colleagues being mom or dad and myself just grinning ear to ear and feeling my heart going pitter patter to it all.

Until yesterday...

Returning from the very well done, motivating, inspiring, moving company meeting I attended with the other 3000+ employees from this site.

I am at a point in my life where I am financially secure, have a good job, home. I am 46 years old and too damn old to have a kid or raise a baby if I adopted one. I don't know if I could ever trust anyone enough to be in a committed relationship let alone get married again, so I toy with the idea of adopting older children or a sibling group and raising them on my own.

What I get angry about on this anniversary is why did I stay in that lousy marriage so long? Why didn't I realize sooner that I wasn't helping my then husband? That I was kidding myself that he would become stable enough to have a family with me someday? That "someday" became farther and farther away?

Like I said, I can't be angry with him. There is still a part of me that cares about him, prays that he is all right, that he has something close to stability and happiness. He is not a jerk.

I spent way too many years in a celibate marriage. The feeble romance that existed in the marriage left before the end of the first couple of months. Obligatory sex ended sometime before the end of the second year. I spent so many years of being ashamed of this "secret" that I was married to a man who had not touched me in the last 11 years of a 13 year marriage. When people would hint about when we would have children, I would get so ashamed. Conception would require sex and I was married to someone who I assumed thought I was repulsive. Not being one with any confidence about my appearance, I started to believe I was repulsive. That made the shame worse.

As sick as this sounds, it was a relief when I started having seizures sometime in our 5th year of marriage and got put on anti seizure meds. The meds I was (and still am)on would very likely cause birth defects. Now I could tell myself and others that I didn't have kids because of my anti seizure meds. But that didn't really solve the problem.

I started going to information sessions about adoption. That would solve the problem. The husband wouldn't have to have sex with me to conceive a child, I'd have my family and I had gotten to the point where I was confident I could continue to "mother" my then husband as well as any children we might adopt. I faced the reality that he was incapable of being much of a father, but I didn't think he'd be a negative influence. I knew I could take care of them all.

I finally convinced then husband to attend an adoption picnic with me. This was one where they had kids available for adoption present with their foster families. The volunteer organization did a wonderful job of making it an event where we could meet and interact with the kids, the kids could play and it didn't seem like a "cattle show". I had met children in need of a home prior to this and met other children that day. After about an hour at the picnic, I met a sibling group of four children. They were half brothers and sisters, one with mild fetal alcohol syndrome. They were of Cambodian descent. I fell in love like a ton of bricks. It seemed like something happened in my heart and soul -clicked, exploded, I don't know what - but I knew that I would have done anything, given up anything to be able to be those kids mom. My then husband said a luke warm "sure" when I asked what he thought. I picked up the paperwork to apply for the training, etc to be considered as a possible parent.

I filled out as much of the paperwork as I could. Asked then husband to fill out his part. It sat for weeks. I finally read him the questions and wrote down his answers. He said he wanted to read through it before he signed. I waited...more weeks...then months.

More time passed. He kept promising he'd read and sign. He had another of his difficult episodes - serious problems that I had always fixed for him in the past. Of course I fixed everything this time so his life could be easy again. But I knew this had to stop. I finally said to him: "You're not going to sign the papers..You never had any intention of signing the papers." Why couldn't you just tell me? No answer.

More months went by. He had more and more problems, started to resent me more than ever. (He said he resented me for always being able to fix his messes. I said I would stop helping him. He said he couldn't survive without me helping him. So I stayed because he needed that from me) His resentment got worse. He was always irritated with me. I tried to help him be happy, but it didn't work. He didn't have any friends. I did have friends and spent more and more time with them. I went on vacations without the husband, spent time with my friends, stayed pretty happy. I couldn't afford to let his treatment of me affect me. I had to be strong enough for both of us. I rationalized that he was like a teenager. I'd keep taking care of him and he'd grow out of it. I had become his "mother". A sexless marriage had turned into me being like a single mother with a 40 something adolescent.

After enough years of this, on 13August1999, I decided I had had enough. Then husband had lost another job, been out of work for a week and called me at work (as usual) to cry on my shoulder and tell me how everyone was against him, that everyone was out to make his life miserable. I'd listen, reassure him that things would be all right. He'd feel better. I would go home after working all day. He'd be watching television. I'd try to talk to him. He'd ignore me. I'd try again. He'd yell at me and turn up the TV. "Do you mind? I am trying to watch my show." Even commercials were important to him. Once I'd helped him feel better, and he knew I would solve his problems, he didn't want to be bothered.

On 13Aug1999, during a commerical break from some show on the SciFi channel, I took off my wedding ring, handed it to him and said "I'm done." I will be divorcing you. His response confirmed that I had made the right decision: "What am I supposed to do? Where am I supposed to go? How am I going to live?"

Hmm...There was no "I love you, can we try to work this out?" Only "Who is going to take care of me now?"

I still felt sorry for him, didn't hate him, but knew I needed to get out and not look back for his sake and mine. I needed to feel again, have a life, take care of myself. He needed a chance to grow up and be an adult.

As time went on, I became more shocked at what I'd become during those 13 years.

I had surprised myself at how strong and confident I had become in some areas. I was horrified at how sick I'd become in other areas.

When I was married, I would go back to my home state to visit my family alone because my husband didn't like my family. My dad had kept asking me if I was anorexic. I kept looking in the mirror and seeing a chubby person. I didn't like my picture taken because I was too fat. The pictures that were taken of me, I didn't want to look at because I was fat. That is literally what I saw at that time. I later found out that people would ask my sisters (when I would visit) if I was so thin because I was sick. They thought I was physically sick. I thought I was over weight. My husband wouldn't touch me. He seemed repulsed by me. I must be fat. I just had to lose some more weight and then he would like me again, be attracted again.

On 13August 1999, I did what I had to do and thought that was the hard part. That was the beginning of the hard part.

I should post this now before it evaporates or I chicken out about posting it. I am nauseous and shaky. I have more I need to say. I am not in any kind of a crisis. This is just something I need to get out. I can't keep it as my secret anymore. I need other people to help bear the secret and pray that I can seek and accept the healing God has in store for me. I know it is there. I need prayer so I will not run and hide out of fear.

The number of us GSers who are divorced after being married to "Christians"/TWIers is a commentary in and of itself on the whole unequally yoked thing as taught by TWI.

IMO, unequally yoked shouldn't be confined to religion but open to other very important areas such as attitudes about money (how about saving some money, not spending more than you make), material things and the relentless acquisition of such (and why do you want to spend my bonus on another toy for yourself?), independence (I need my alone time -dammit! Me and the dogs will be back from hiking in New Hampshire when we're good and ready), sex (really heterosexual, or hoping to be converted by marriage?), compatability with each person's family (quit telling me my mom is nuts - I have known that for years but she is still my mom and I love her as best I can), etc.

Just speaking from my experience, doesn't hold true for everyone.

If there are folks interested, I'd be glad to look around here.

I am a camp out, bring the dogs kind of person, but would be fine with restaurant or other indoor meeting places if that would interest/accomodate others.

Dr. Strange,

You never answered my questions..

Are you going to come and "fellership" with us Northlanders? Are there direct flights from your home in left field to the Lindbergh or Humphrey terminals?

We have the Mystic Lake Casino in Shakopee (now a suburb of Minneapolis, I guess). Never been inside the casino, only to the shooting range next door, but I hear they have a nice buffet at the casino if anyone likes that sort of thing.

OK, TS

Does that mean you are going to come for it?

How far is left field from Minnesota?

I would be up for a Minnesota GS get together. I live in the Twin Cities, but don't mind driving elsewhere in the state. I'd even be up for having a small group at my house. However, I have to warn you that I have a Tasmanian Pomeranian and an attack chihuahua as a security system. Would be fun to have Wisconsin neighbors or even those southerners from Iowa.

I am the anti-Martha (as in Martha Stewart), so someone else would have to do the organizing, but I would show up or open the gate to my back yard and house if anyone else is interested.

Crowns--

The only ones I know I have are on my teeth.

Anything else is speculation and is just not relevant, motivating, comforting or anything that I will bother with right now.

Like imbus said - just too complicated.

EmmaDog is beautiful! But to me, all dogs are beautiful. Congratulations.

Dot,

I just adopted another dog on Saturday. I read about her on a rescue website and drove 3 hours each way to go get her. She is a "middle aged" (the vet's description) chihuhua with horrible teeth and a knee that will probably require surgery. She had been abandoned and was scared to death. I have had her for a little over 24 hours and she is snuggled next to me sleeping peacefully. She is such a sweetheart.

Shelters and rescue orgs are such a great thing and a wonderful way to find amazing animals. Thanks for spreading the word and caring about the animals that need families.

Oh.. and for the record....

The pastor that made that statement: He was straight.

This thread brings to mind what a pastor at a church I used to attend in Massachusetts said about the Bible and homosexuality: If it is such a horrible thing in God's eyes, why didn't Jesus ever mention it? He emphasized that Jesus got as riled up about money changers in the temple as some of today's Christians get about homosexuality. Jesus said "Love thy neighbor..." Was there some translation according to abusage that said "except if he is homosexual"?

When I see a nice looking male, I feel certain "stirrings" that I don't consciously choose. It is pretty much instinctive and doesn't pass through a part of my brain that says..."Hmmm, should I get excited about this or not". If gay men feel this same "stirring" at the sight of a good looking man, I have nothing but compassion for the ones that feel compelled to try to ignore such strong feelings because they have to mold such a core part of their being to fit what some religious types believe.

Makes me think of a refrigerator magnet I got a good laugh out of last weekend:

Christians aren't perfect.

They just want everyone else to be...

I think I am much better off considering what parts of my own life are less than a reflection of Christ. I think it is more likely that God would ask me if I did my best to love my neighbor and focused my life on growing in that area than how many times I quoted Bible verses about the alleged condemnation of homosexuality to gay people.

Peace and love to everyone.

Praying with all my heart that a miracle happens for you. Please don't feel ashamed. God thinks you are beautiful and so do many people here.

Vickles,

Tell prospective employers you need the time off in July. They will respect you more for being honest. If they really want to hire you, your request for time off is not going to be held against you.

I have interviewed many people over the years and it is not unusual for candidates to tell me they need time off, that reservations are made, plane tickets are bought. If I have made up my mind to hire someone, their need for time off has never been a consideration in my choice to hire them - or not.

Honestly, a person politely informing me that they need time off tells me that they have a sense of their own worth and confidence in their ability to do the job. I recently hired a young man who informed me during the interview that he would work every day without a day off until October if necessary, but that in October he needed three weeks off because he was marrying the "girl of his dreams". I couldn't help but smile.

Those poor performers. All I could think of was that I was so embarassed for them.

I also remember D.O. as a very sweet and genuine person. I pray that God has somehow preserved her wonderful heart.

DMiller,

Blowing kisses at the tailgater behind you gets pretty funny results, too. Especially if they are of the same gender.

But I 'spose that could backfire...