NewParadigm

. Know who wrote it? It might surprise you!

Lennon/McCartney

Unknown Hinson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhWvulzhgTs

Prayers for you and your family.

What puzzles me is this:

Why,if people are fond of the "academic" aspects of PFAL, they don't simply go to the sources from which VPW conveniently lifted them? Those sources can be found right here at GSC if one is so inclined to do a little research.

Food for thought.

Waysider,

Please don't be puzzled any longer.

I do not have any of VPWs material...not a syllabus, not a PFAL book, nothing.

These items were donated to the city landfill when I left TWI several years ago.

All I have currently is some of Bullinger's stuff. ( I realize that some don't like him either.)

Thanks Oak,

You'd be amazed at how much we agree on this.

Ah...you and I apparently operate from a different premise. I don't believe that such an animal exists.

We do differ on this.

I accept certain basics in PFAL. I won't claim to have mastered the material or that I believe every word.

From the time I first got involved in TWI (late 70's) THE CLASS and THE TEACHER OF THE CLASS where so heavily promoted that I never paid much attention to the actual content of the class. THE CLASS always took precedence over the (if you don't mind me saying this) the Word. So I am acquanited with the fanatical side of PFAL.

But things like the integrety of the Word, nine manisfestations, body,soul and spirit...I still believe these things.

BTW, I did the church thing (classes and all) for two years after leaving TWI - great folks, but it just didn't work for me.

"No offense meant, but that's a the same song that most, if not all, PFAL fans sing. "

Might be a bit of that from anti PFAL fans at times as well.

Thanks.

...but choose your own poison -its your life

Thanks for the permission.

Oak & Belle,

I appreciate the view points that you have stated.

I know that PFAL is not perfect. (duh)

Unless you can point me to THE GUARANTEED, ABSOLUTE CORRECT TRUTH and DOCTRINE, then I'm keeping PFAL as my basic approach to understanding the Bible. (You have thousands of doctrines/denominations/religions/beliefs/interpretations/re-interpretations, etc. to choose from)

If I'm wrong...won't be the first time.

I'm glad for you both if you have found the "TRUTH".

I will not attempt to prove anything from PFAL to you or anyone else. As you know, that would be an exercise in futility. We have all made up our mind on these matters.

I do not worship VPW, nor do I condone or excuse any of his unchristian or unethical behaviour.

Could say much more, but I'll just leave it at that.

Thanks.

NP (formerly WeWereScammed)

A VERY cold one here today toooooooooo.... my outdoor digital thermometer, at 7:40am today (just a couple minutes after sunrise) read 25.5F.

So I guess this means that the pool party is off.

I think what might cause a lot of us to look at the fans of PFAL with a jaundiced eye is that, after leaving the cult atmosphere and maybe gaining a little bit of maturity, in retrospect we find the teaching so farking LAME.

Lord have mercy, "THE LAW OF BELIEVING"? What a crock. It has far more to do with 1950's pop-psychology than anything biblical. Likewise with the "LAW" of "giving and receiving". Not much biblical there either, just a cool way to fleece the unsuspecting flock. Or all the lesser (and mistaken) things like "thoroughly" vs. "throughly" (UTTER nonsense), the "four crucified with Christ", "the cry of triumph" and so on. It made for a lot of "gee whiz" moments to the uninitiated, but the end result of which was - not much.

So do I think less of folks who STILL hang onto the odd, eclectic mix of Bible trivia and religious pablum that was PFAL?

Yeah, you bet I do. It's our seventh year into the new millenium, grow up fer gawdsake...

Thanks for expressing your intelligent views. Now I can make a more mature, sound decision concerning PFAL.

it's my gift

It will make room for you.

NP, this thread is one example of the great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship.

Here's another one.

You want more? Start with reading the threads on rape.

Belle,

I missed your point at first. I see that you are answering my question as to what constitutes worshipping VPW.

Basically I agree with you - I have met people such as this.

My point is that if I, or anyone else, accepts PFAL as good teaching, or attends an 'offshoot' does not mean that we worship, condone, or excuse VPW of anything.

Thanks for your input.

i believe the revelation changed to WITH distinction

Always teaching, aren't you.

That depends. How independently have you considered the information presented in the Power for Abundant Living class series?

Enough for my satisfaction.

Or do you have a mindset of "'Doctor' said it...that settles it!"?

No. Trust me.

And, knowing the depths of how people have been abused and degraded by "Doctor" Wierwille, why wouldn't you question everything the man ever said or did?

I have. But I realize that much of what he taught did not originate with him. It took me some time to see this.

To those who would accept PFAL without deeper reflection, and would accept those who re-package and promote it, I would only say

Caveat emptor - Let the buyer beware.

That is good advice for everyone, everywhere. (without exception/without distinction)

Thanks for your reply.

"The point of reading the rape threads is that there are people who excuse what Wierwille did because he taught "The Word like it hasn't been known since the first century," and therefore, we are to overlook his "faults" because he did something so good. After all, he was only human. "

""great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship"... they can't help but excuse the most base of behaviors in their object of worship, because if they don't, he will not be worthy of worship.

seemed pretty plain. define worship: holding his (vpw's) image in unsullied regard, I will deny all attacks against his character, be they theft, plagiarism, drunkeness, lying... even rape. that's what his worshippers do."

I have said nothing about excusing VPW.

Attending a TWI offshoot is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape.

Accepting the content of PFAL is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape.

I do not worship or excuse VPW. I do not condone or excuse rape.

Believe what you will.

I don't deny that there people who worship 'VPW'.

Where did you get that from?

I guess I get it from the same logic that Belle used to suggest that I read links about rape to answer my question as to how do you define worship and does attending an offshoot = worshipping VPW.

Seems like good Greasespot logic to me.

Food for thought: Could the rape suggestion be a strawman?

I think that those who turn a blind eye to the plagiarism, abuse and worse, and slobber over old vics name with labels like "the teacher" and "the man of god" do.

PFAL wasn't even his material, to begin with.

I think he was a scam artist, a fraud, a huckster.. he sold us a stolen package that he claimed was his own work.

Mixed with just enough poison to make us really sick:

"we should come to the place that we realize we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry that taught us the word.."

The scam was SO good, it's what.. twenty some years after his death, and people STILL believe it

Fair enough... and I know that those folks are out there. But I also know some who accept much of PFAL as good foundational teaching with full awareness that it was not VPW's work to begin with.

"I think he was a scam artist"

BTW, my former screen name was WeWereScammed.

Tell me about it.

(ps) I was never scammed by the Word.

NP, this thread is one example of the great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship.

Here's another one.

You want more? Start with reading the threads on rape.

So . . . can I assume everyone, without exception, that attends an offshoot or likes PFAL worships VPW?

(Assuming also that attending an offshoot and likes PFAL = worship)

What is the proper proportion of bread crumbs to 1 lb of beef?

if you knew veepee like i knew veepee oh oh oh what a mog

(sung to the tune of if you knew susie)

Thanks, but I'll stick with Susie.

It seems like sometimes people want to put VPW on some kind of lofty pedestal and find some profound wisdom in his words and actions. (Why in session three at exactly the 7 minute and 7 second mark did he scratch his nose 3 times with his right hand? Was he giving us some privleged signal alerting us to some deep truth? )WAKE UP! No one wants to admit they have been conned, but that is what happened to us. I work with someone who was involved with a cult I had never heard of at about the same time I was involved with TWI. We compared notes on several occasions and the similarities between the two were astoundingly similar. Somehow even if we accept that The Way was a cult we want to think it was superior to other cults. Maybe VP started out with good intentions,I don't know, but for a long, long time he lived the life of a con-man and we were the willing suckers. There are some people who will never simply accept that they were flim-flammed and exalting VPW makes it easier to hold onto that belief.

[/quote

I'm guilty of the pedestal thing.

I don't do that anymore.

The statement could be interpreted in a number of ways, depending upon a person's viewpoint.

Often the expression 'they worship VPW' comes up here at GS.

What does this mean to you?

Does accepting some of what he taught and choosing to fellowship with others of a like mind constitute worship to you.

If I recognize that I learned something from his ministry and that I'm glad that he taught it, do you think that I worship him?

How do you define worship?

Me too, I hope.

sorry when i went to their website i got the heebie jeebies

OK. That was YOUR experience.

Sorry 'bout your heebie jeebies, but I'm not sure that is enough for someone to make an informed decision about them, IMO.