NewParadigm

Lennon/McCartney

Stones with Mick Taylor - 1972

Unknown Hinson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhWvulzhgTs

Waysider, Please don't be puzzled any longer. I do not have any of VPWs material...not a syllabus, not a PFAL book, nothing. These items were donated to the city landfill when I left TWI several years ago. All I have currently is some of Bullinger's stuff. ( I realize that some don't like him either.)

Thanks Oak, You'd be amazed at how much we agree on this. We do differ on this. I accept certain basics in PFAL. I won't claim to have mastered the material or that I believe every word. From the time I first got involved in TWI (late 70's) THE CLASS and THE TEACHER OF THE CLASS where so heavily promoted that I never paid much attention to the actual content of the class. THE CLASS always took precedence over the (if you don't mind me saying this) the Word. So I am acquanited with the fanatical side of PFAL. But things like the integrety of the Word, nine manisfestations, body,soul and spirit...I still believe these things. BTW, I did the church thing (classes and all) for two years after leaving TWI - great folks, but it just didn't work for me. "No offense meant, but that's a the same song that most, if not all, PFAL fans sing. " Might be a bit of that from anti PFAL fans at times as well. Thanks.

Thanks for the permission.

Oak & Belle, I appreciate the view points that you have stated. I know that PFAL is not perfect. (duh) Unless you can point me to THE GUARANTEED, ABSOLUTE CORRECT TRUTH and DOCTRINE, then I'm keeping PFAL as my basic approach to understanding the Bible. (You have thousands of doctrines/denominations/religions/beliefs/interpretations/re-interpretations, etc. to choose from) If I'm wrong...won't be the first time. I'm glad for you both if you have found the "TRUTH". I will not attempt to prove anything from PFAL to you or anyone else. As you know, that would be an exercise in futility. We have all made up our mind on these matters. I do not worship VPW, nor do I condone or excuse any of his unchristian or unethical behaviour. Could say much more, but I'll just leave it at that. Thanks. NP (formerly WeWereScammed)

So I guess this means that the pool party is off.

Thanks for expressing your intelligent views. Now I can make a more mature, sound decision concerning PFAL.

It will make room for you.

Belle, I missed your point at first. I see that you are answering my question as to what constitutes worshipping VPW. Basically I agree with you - I have met people such as this. My point is that if I, or anyone else, accepts PFAL as good teaching, or attends an 'offshoot' does not mean that we worship, condone, or excuse VPW of anything. Thanks for your input. Always teaching, aren't you.

That depends. How independently have you considered the information presented in the Power for Abundant Living class series? Enough for my satisfaction. Or do you have a mindset of "'Doctor' said it...that settles it!"? No. Trust me. And, knowing the depths of how people have been abused and degraded by "Doctor" Wierwille, why wouldn't you question everything the man ever said or did? I have. But I realize that much of what he taught did not originate with him. It took me some time to see this. To those who would accept PFAL without deeper reflection, and would accept those who re-package and promote it, I would only say Caveat emptor - Let the buyer beware. That is good advice for everyone, everywhere. (without exception/without distinction) Thanks for your reply.

"The point of reading the rape threads is that there are people who excuse what Wierwille did because he taught "The Word like it hasn't been known since the first century," and therefore, we are to overlook his "faults" because he did something so good. After all, he was only human. " ""great leaps of illogic and fantasy some folks will go to in order to defend the man they worship"... they can't help but excuse the most base of behaviors in their object of worship, because if they don't, he will not be worthy of worship. seemed pretty plain. define worship: holding his (vpw's) image in unsullied regard, I will deny all attacks against his character, be they theft, plagiarism, drunkeness, lying... even rape. that's what his worshippers do." I have said nothing about excusing VPW. Attending a TWI offshoot is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape. Accepting the content of PFAL is not synonymous with worshipping VPW , excusing VPW, or condoning rape. I do not worship or excuse VPW. I do not condone or excuse rape. Believe what you will. I don't deny that there people who worship 'VPW'.

I guess I get it from the same logic that Belle used to suggest that I read links about rape to answer my question as to how do you define worship and does attending an offshoot = worshipping VPW. Seems like good Greasespot logic to me. Food for thought: Could the rape suggestion be a strawman?

I think that those who turn a blind eye to the plagiarism, abuse and worse, and slobber over old vics name with labels like "the teacher" and "the man of god" do. PFAL wasn't even his material, to begin with. I think he was a scam artist, a fraud, a huckster.. he sold us a stolen package that he claimed was his own work. Mixed with just enough poison to make us really sick: "we should come to the place that we realize we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry that taught us the word.." The scam was SO good, it's what.. twenty some years after his death, and people STILL believe it Fair enough... and I know that those folks are out there. But I also know some who accept much of PFAL as good foundational teaching with full awareness that it was not VPW's work to begin with. "I think he was a scam artist" BTW, my former screen name was WeWereScammed. Tell me about it. (ps) I was never scammed by the Word.

So . . . can I assume everyone, without exception, that attends an offshoot or likes PFAL worships VPW? (Assuming also that attending an offshoot and likes PFAL = worship)

What is the proper proportion of bread crumbs to 1 lb of beef?

Thanks, but I'll stick with Susie.

The statement could be interpreted in a number of ways, depending upon a person's viewpoint.

Often the expression 'they worship VPW' comes up here at GS. What does this mean to you? Does accepting some of what he taught and choosing to fellowship with others of a like mind constitute worship to you. If I recognize that I learned something from his ministry and that I'm glad that he taught it, do you think that I worship him? How do you define worship?

Me too, I hope.

OK. That was YOUR experience. Sorry 'bout your heebie jeebies, but I'm not sure that is enough for someone to make an informed decision about them, IMO.

"The bickering sometimes just drowns out the message....." "As far as the "offshoots" go..."Don't lend your hand to raise no flag upon a ship of fools"...Jerry Garcia...(IMHO)." "great quote, though! perfect, in fact.)" These statements could lead to a possible thread derailment resulting in bickering. I repeat "Statements thay imply that persons who hold some regard for things taught by VPW are stupid and can't think for themselves can lead to possible derailments of the original subject matter, and often do come across as judgemental and bitter ."