blarney

Further perusal of John (chapter 17 to be exact) finds Jesus PRAYING to God that we be one with him in the SAME manner that HE is one with God.

Mathematical truth states that if:

(A) Jesus = God ©

and

(B) We = Jesus (A)

then

(B) We = © GOD also.

Therefore...

If Jesus is God then so are WE.

HCW,

And Jesus also said we are gods.

This is why I take a rather panantheistic (not to be confused with pantheistic) view, rather than God and Jesus being the guy, or guys out there somewhere.

Perhaps that is how I can reconcile Jesus being God, yet the son of God, and yet still be somewhat unitarian in my views.

My $.02 ~ Blarney

But having the freewill to do as we please, and doing it God's way are usually two different things. If a man has the ability to give of his time and resources to help another human being in need, should he charge money just because he CAN? This is where works and faith meet the road.. We say we serve the one true God, and all we have is His, but when it comes to having things in common, when it comes to sharing the things we've been given, oh no.. That's MINE!

Trust,

That's so true. We've become very selfish.

When I read your post, I immediately thought about copyrights. There's this idea that these things are "MINE," like you said. Those neatly-package teaching sets involve extra cost. And I've noticed that many include copyright info. I've come to avoid those things. But as long as there's a market, they'll make them.

That's why I respect those why offer mp3's and writings on the internet for free. (and some don't ask for donations, even.)

You're right, I'd much rather give directly to those with real needs and guard my wallet when it comes to Bible teaching. These are my own personal choices.

BTW, I loved the expression, "This is where works and faith meet the road."

Blarney

Duckles, you give out as good as you get chief, and you know it. So please spare us the I-am-the-patriotic-and-persecuted-Christian-American-who-is-one-of-the-few-who-is-standing-on-the-Truth (Betcha never saw any hyphenated noun that long before, huh?) song-and-dance (<-- a shorty), ok?

Garth,

Wasn't that an adjective? :)

Blarney

I feel that one could have a relationship with JC as well as God and still be a unitarian, but perhaps not a biblical unitarian. I think that they elevate the Bible over Jesus or God, which, in my view, is idolatry.

I'm not sure if I am in total agreement with either position. I believe that Jesus is one with God, and that he prayed for us to be one with him.

I think that Jesus had preexistence with God, but I think that possibly we too had preexistence with him.

All in all, I think that there's a lot of good fellowship to be had among trinitarians, but I've also seen a strain among some because there is questioning going on about the word "trinity" not being in the Bible. So, some think that they might have it wrong in some way.

Yes, I feel we can talk to either Jesus or God.

Still, if one were to be seeking fellowship, I would suggest trinitarians over unitarians, by virtue of the fact that they seem to have a real relationship with Jesus and God. Unitarians seem to have more of an ax to grind, IMO.

Sorry for misunderstanding the thread.

My best,

Blarney

Why is it that many of these former twi "leaders" always have a "mission" from God that places THEM on the stage and in the spotlight?...

Groucho,

I think that is what makes them uniquely unqualified. I have always had the impression that they are only interested in their agenda.

For me, personally, not having an agenda is very freeing. I don't feel the need to invite, convince, or pressure. I simply enjoy the moment with people, and if God comes up, fine. If the subject of God doesn't come up, fine. And I think that God is just fine with that.

Now that I don't have an agenda, I'm particularly sensitive when people do. It just sounds like noise.

My $.02

Blarney

I once said, "Maybe God isn't a trinitarian or a untiarian" to a CES person. They looked at me aghast. I never thought about putting it that way, but we develop so many litmus tests about orthodoxy when we really don't know much of anything. At least I don't.

Why must we consider doctrine so important that we can't love? We can see the speck in our brother's or sister's eye but can't see the log in our own.

I used to be so arrogant about such things. Such a waste of time and energy...

Knowing less and less as time goes by,

Blarney

and then there's panantheism -- which integrates both (perhaps?)...

I, for one, do not believe that God is a trinitarian or a unitarian.

Blarney

I have used that term "organically" regularly, after leaving TWI and experiencing relationships among different groups. Someone asked what I meant by "organic" and I had to think about it. I thought of the human body and how it works to nourish/heal itself. It intuitively knows where to send the nutrients, etc., to do their work. In a similar way, if people are allowed to intuitively follow where led (with "god"/"love" working in their hearts), will that not allow the body to function as needed?

And I add, for some, that may be via taking a class/seminar/etc. Cannot that (seminars) also be part of the organic growth? But I guess the point is the $$ charged for those classes......hmmm, which could be done on a freewill donation basis.

(That's all.....thanks to whomever for reading my little ramble.... )

Wonderful words, Bagpipes.

We each have our own unique cirriculum, have had people point us to the signposts along the path.

As spiritual "free agents," we allow Christ to lead us into green pastures, where the nutrients are just right.

I like books, books that inspired me to explore the deeper paths of his love. And then I pass them on to those who are interested. For free.

To follow someone else -- and letting his/her path become mine -- is denominationalism. His/her path is not mine. And it is false for both of us. I may walk with that person every so briefly, but then I move on, relying on the voice of the shepherd always. As I follow, I discover that doctrines and beliefs fall off, and I become more at one with his love.

For the way of the tribal war gods is: "my god or belief is better than yours." And with violence we assert and defend because it is, at times, based on investment, be it time or money.

We come together, not in belief, but in his love, encouraging spiritual discernment, which cannot be defined but only intuited through seeking only him. To know only love, which The One is.

And this is free. And this beginning to be discerned and manifested throughout his body. Beating swords into plowshares...and resting in his love... And finally, the money will stop flowing and the world will stop groaning, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.

This is my dream.

With love and a holy kiss blowing your way, Roy and All! (Love that tagline)

Blarney

blarney,

I don't believe we have spoken before, it's nice to meet you.

And what a beautiful video. His talent and joy of playing was delightful to hear and watch.

I have a new respect for the instrument and also am curious about it because it works for people with smaller hands, hmmm.

The song alone is one of the best ever done even if only one person had ever performed it but wow again on that instrument.

Very cool!

Thank you.

Kathy

Kathy,

I used to post at Waydale, but found other things to do in the interim (got a degree).

Nice meeting you. I really don't have the time to follow many threads here, so I just saw your video and thought I'd send this your way. It's pretty inspiring.

I hear he has a record. I'm not sure of the site, though.

I agree. It's among the best.

Cheers,

Blarney

Chatty

Here's another of "My Guitar Gently Weeps" on a Ukulele. I've never heard one played like this...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=829401773913198414

My Best,

Blarney

Yes,

Can it be done without all the hooplah -- the seminars, cds, tapes, books...?

Can it arise organically and not in a contrived way? Christ at work within each individual, and each -- led by the spirit -- to love as he loved? The revelation of his love growing stronger and flowing through ... his body?

His revelation is love. To the degree in which we are empty of self, he will fill us.

Oh yes, the money-changers will chafe, as they chafed at Stephen for insinuating that their institutions will be dismantled. The seminar speakers will have to get a day job, so that he can give to him that needs...

Can this be where he leads his church? One thing for sure, leadership will not listen to peons. The money will have to dry up.

Institutions continue to be dismantled... Do we want to continue "mantling" them?

Just musing over the possiblities...

Blarney

...but all those collection plates produce a heck of a lot of cash!! It may be the modern way, but I don't think it's God's way.

Just my opinion, folks.

Dear All,

It, in fact, is as old as the human race, as the prophets, Jesus, Stephen, and Paul attested.

You are on the right track, although I would dispense with the middle man, as thousands of believers are beginning to realize...2000 years of being led by men, and we simply haven't seen what Jesus said yet...he will build it.. From the celestial realm, he's calling his sheep, the ones who are still and resting... He will lead, as he promised...the Shepherd. All others are thieves and robbers. They'll insert opinions and call them God's word -- and lead the sheep off the cliff, in a heartbeat.

Was it in John where Jesus said, "You search the scriptures, and you think that in them you have eternal life, but they testify of me; but you refuse to come to me." We have our tapes, lexicons, concordances -- all in an effort to come to the truth. But he is truth, the living word.

He gives to all freely. Let us save our resources for the poor and needy, our families, and friends.

My best, Blarney

Guys and gals,

It's true the love of money is the root of all evil. It cuts both ways, taking or charging when it's not necessary and

WITHHOLDING it from whom its due. I forget the scripture, you can look it up, our Saviour was financially supported

by some of the women who followed him. (YOu'll find a reference in the gospels).

TWI should not charge for it's classes. They have (or had in October 2005) over $20 million in liquid investments.

Organizations that are just starting out need $. None of us work for free. If an organization doesn't have the funds,

it gotta get 'em to survive. (Example, the author of "The Dreamweaver", tried to operate a ministry gratis. It went under,

not because he didn't pray, work hard, etc. But because they had no source of income). Americans are generous to a one-time

cause. They're stingy in continual financial support to non-profit groups, whtether religious or service oriented.

I speak first hand, when CFF charges for it's classes; then sends a syllabus and CDs for the class. The syllabus is practically a

transcript and the class is yours to keep or give away. So the purchaser of the class could give it away (I suppose) to

another person/family. That would let the "giver" literally give the class/Word away. Last I checked, ALL businesses charge

for paper, CDs, shipping, etc. There is no such thing as a free lunch. When Jesus was ministering here, other humans financially

supported him. Are you supporting anyone (not limited to TWI and its offshoots) who teaches the Word? If not,

why the he!l are you complaining? It's not like you deserve it. You had someone teach you someting about God.

Let those who've not heard "hear it for free".

Well, I suppose that one would have to support a ministry, if one were in one. I, for one, am forsaking that broken paradigm more and more.

But, I pretty much am of the opinion that God is able to teach us himself, and we have no need that any man should teach us. It's the annointing, holy spirit, or whatever you want to call it.

He is able to teach us so much more, if we would dare let him. He will lead us to all truth.

In my opinion, the "Word" is an eternal ocean of truth, and the Bible is a tiny droplet within it.

Blarney

I think SIT was genuine, and the interpretations, etc., but what I don't think was genuine was the words the people used in the interpretation...

Chas...

As a contemplative, I view these manifestations -- as well as all visions and communication with the divine -- as merely "bad translations" (qtd. Thomas Keating) of what cannot be adequately conveyed by the human tongue. Everything gets flitered through the (clouded) prisms of our experiences and and attitudes.

So, in that respect, I do think there was something there. But there's always something there of God. He is, and when we're aware of Him simply through being, we allow truth to be infused in us. But this truth eludes communication and is simply "knowing."

Thus, I can see how these things can be hit or miss. When we are simply still and know..., we can be more attuned to Love, and that's something that cannot be communicated, necessarily.

In our frenetic pace of day to day activity, we miss this.

My $.02,

Blarney

Guys,

Here's a quote by the founder of the Quakers, George Fox, that I thought might be appropriate to this discussion:

But the black earthy spirit of the priests wounded my life; and when I heard the bell toll to call people together to the steeple-house, it struck at my life; for it was just like a market-bell, to gather people together that the priest might set forth his wares to sale. Oh! The vast sums of money that are gotten by the trade they make of selling the Scriptures, and by their preaching, from the highest bishop to the lowest priest! What one trade in the world is comparable to it? notwithstanding the Scriptures were given forth freely, and the prophets and apostles denounced judgment against all covetous hirelings and diviners for money. But in this free spirit of the Lord Jesus I was sent forth to declare the word of life and reconciliation freely, that all might come to Christ, who gives freely, and who renews up into the image of God, which man and woman were in before they fell, that they might sit down in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Seems as thought the Quakers had forgotten what he said...

Cheers,

Blarney

Waking the Dead by John Eldredge was really healing.

And I liked Practicing the Presence of God, by brother Lawrence.

Blarney

Hey Blarney. That's my whole point. It wasn't a genuine healing, then, if it keeps coming back--it was just in remission for a while.

I'm at the point where I don't believe in that stuff. I think that it's all just an illusion -- true, only because they want it to be true or because it's true only on their particular plane of reality. So, perhaps its genuineness is in the eye of the beholder? I don't know whether satan or the devil exists, really. In fact, I'm more inclined to think that the carnal or fleshly stuff I deal with all the time (inside me) eclipses anything the a devil could possibly do. But this is just an aside.

That is not to say that a "healing" of some sort did not take place. Or-- could it just be all illusion? That this whole religious thing is powerful enough to create such and illusion? I know I'm talking theoretically and metaphysically, but I kind of think that we can walk in different levels of spirituality. And that as long as we're not satisfied with where we are, we will see more truth. Conversely, if we are satisfied with where we are, we'll be stuck in the same paradigm.

I think that that whole devil spirit garbage is just that: garbage. I pray that people with depression can find their way out of it. And I wonder if the answer is that we don't have enough love, that the world is completely lacking in love. And maybe if we had enough of it, people wouldn't have the problems they have...

I think that these wayisms contradict the scripture they say they believe, that Jesus is far above all principality and power. We're not in some kind of cosmic battle of good vs. evil, where evil is this great cosmic force for us to overcome. I think that whole notion of spiritual warfare is fleshly and carnal, and we're just not seeing some greater reality in all this.

These are just my ponderings, and I'm not meaning to diss anything anyone says about the truth or non-truth of any of this.

BTW, people have made a lot of money on those spiritual warfare books.

Full circle, I love to hear stories of healing. I only wish my daughters could be healed.

Blarney

[

Back to depression...so far no takers to my question if anyone KNOWS of someone who had a devil spirit or demon cast out and is now better and no longer has depression.

I know of a family that had some major deliverance. Their adult daughter had many spirits cast out of her. She used to be depressed (and had other problems). I saw a radical change in her when I saw her.

But her parents have admitted that, though these things happened, they got tired of the whole idea of dwelling on casting out stuff. Made life too busy, I guess.

They, too, have been searching for a greater reality.

I was depressed when I took PFAL, and I was delivered for sure. But I don't think it was because of the whole class, but because of a truth that came to me. This is all subjective, I might add.

Blarney

Mr. Hammeroni,

Aha, a kindred soul in the quest for The One!

I wonder whether the writings of Matt, Mark, Luke, & John were just the musings of Jesus' life through the prisms of their own experience. So, seeing these marvelous happenings, their response was to narrate them in the only language they could conceive, using the only labels they knew.

My heart breaks for those who suffer depression, and I pray that those afflcted would be healed.

Blarney

I wonder how much of this spiritual warfare business is illusion, human illusion, out of the vanity of the human mind, of another reality of sorts.

I was involved with this phenomenon for a while, and it was true, or it seemed true, at least to me. Or was it simply on a level of spiritual dimension I no longer choose to expend my energy on.

I wonder what would happen in this world if Christians really chose to love? Love with the kind of love that lays down its own life. Love that has no opinion or judgment, but rather chooses to merely love. And enter into rest.

These are my contemplations and not meant to disannul various levels of reality, as I have seen deliverance time and time again...

Blarney

Thanks for that link, Blarney. It is very cool!

Listener,

Wayne Jacobsen has some really great insights. He has a site called "The God Journey" where he has free podcasts and a forum (the atmosphere is very friendly), and at times thought-provoking. I've been hanging with them for quite a while, but I've omitted my stint with the way as part of my MO. lol

The article, for me, was revolutionary in that it gave me permission to think what I had always seen in scripture -- that Jesus wants to build his church, and to lead us personally.

I consider myself a free agent, spiritually speaking. Currently, I'm serving at a Sunday club with music. But I don't view things the same anymore. Nor will I ever. God/The One has always worked beyond whatever definitions or parameters we have set for him. Go figure. He's/she's God. (for gender neutrality purposes)

Peace to you,

Blarney

The thing is...I just wonder why we need leaders....I mean with Jesus as our shepherd, with God as our sufficiency.

I just think that *leaders* interfere with us learning that on our own personal level.

I think each of us can be the hands/feet/mouth of God....those whom God worketh to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Rascal,

I think that that is what it comes down to. The church has habituated itself to the top-down hierarchal systems of this world. Why don't Christians simply allow Jesus to build his church instead of trying to do it for him?

I'm not sure that what we expect of "leaders" is possible.

Blarney

Not to worry. I only know people who've known people in CFF. Perhaps that's why I was so soon to judge. Their experience with CFF was mixed -- good and bad.

To insert myself into this discussion like I did was probably not a wise thing to do.

My reactions to certain issues come from my experience with the way and from hearing about the experience of other people in other religious groups.

My best,

Blarney

I'm sorry if I misread and misjudged anyone. I probably did not have the facts right.

My best to you,

Blarney

Tzaia,

I heard that the seminar was utterly brutal. I too thought the agreement was a red flag.

Blarney