def59

Oak

This site has documented at 30 errors in vpw's main book alone, why should any of us consider his views on anything?

As for different wills, Jesus came in the flesh and willingly limited himself to the flesh. As such, when the cross was coming, he didn't want to endure the pain that was coming, but he submitted to the father's will.

I don't think anyone committed suicide, unless you are thinking of Masada, which is not in scripture.

Generally, the times of siege brought deliverance or captivity.

The gospel has been preached on every continent, no thanks to twi ces or cff.

Thanks to Jesus.

Isn't the answer 14?

The problem with gnostics is that they are always trying to possess a better secret decoder ring than the last guy. If they have the best ring to understand (hidden) knowledge, then they can puff themselves up.

I know it is difficult for NTWP to understand this, but trinitarians are monotheistic.

Trinitarians see the Godhead as three persons, because of the different verses that show how Jesus and the Holy Spirit have the authority and power we associate with God.

Jesus forgave sins, created the world, is called the Good sheperd (Psalm 23) and others.

Robert Bowman wrote a book on the need to believe in the trinity, it is mostly targeted at JW's but I found it interesting.

And knowing how vpw screwed up a lot of the Bible, why is this argument sacrosanct?

Thanks Evan

Temple lady

Why should we accept the words of your prophets over the Scriptures? Could they (prophets) have been influenced by something other than godly thought.

Why do you believe in polygamy when Scriptures show that it is to be one man one woman in marriage. Can't you see how destructive the kings got when they added wives to their families.

And how does your celestial polygamy jibe with Jesus who said there won't be marriage in heaven?

Aren't we told not to add to the word, yet you have your book and the prophecies?

You can believe what you want, but don't drag Jesus into this because he had nothing to do with your religion.

According to my understanding, here's my reply to this song.

Somebody lied

Cuz God never died

No one said He did. Jesus, taking the sins of the world (past, present and future) paid the ultimate sacrifice, but his eternal nature did not die.

He didn't bleed

On Calvary's tree

If that were true

As many have said

Then who raised him

from the dead.

Jesus had to bleed and who raised Him? The father.

If we just get logical I am sure that we'd agree

That God is God and Christ is Christ and one's not really three

That's the thing about the trinity. The father is the father and the son is the son and the spirit is the spirt. Three Persons=One God.

If someone knows the answer than please explain to me

Who was Jesus talking to when he was on the tree

He was talking to the Father.

chorus (ohhhohhhhohh)

After Jesus Christ was baptized, he turned his eyes above

saw the spirit of God descend upon him like a dove

If it really happend like some of us have heard

You got a God on the ground and God up in heaven "giving him the bird''

chorus (oohwaaaooo)

Blasphemy alert. Again we see the trinity here, Father son and spirit.

Christ said we surely do greater works than these

Because he went to the Father and sent the spirit.

but only if we know the truth can we be truly free

Truth is liberating.

so understand we've been redeemed, lord Jesus was the Christ

for those that think he is God are of the antichrist!

I think they got this backward.

chorus

God is the Father and the son is Christ that's what my bible said! {Bob Stanley, blessed be his name}

so does mine.

I use discernment when considering different doctrines. I tend to avoid the quirky and bizzare and am drawn to the orthodox.

It is just amazing that we are still talking about this subject. Guess people don't believe in absolute truth anymore.

Well at least they sold apple juice at ROA instead of Kool-Aid.

I've talked about this before and I'll ring in here again. I was a "true believer" for JCING when I was in TWI. It was my calling. After I left, I held firm to my belief until I started seeing in Scripture where Jesus was much more than a man and had been around a lot longer than the manger.

It was a slow process and I prayed God for answers. He gave them to me and I am convinced of Jesus as divine. as well as the Holy Spirit being seperate from the Father.

I am willing to discuss this further.......

Since salvation is by grace and not works, and since Jesus died once for all (people and sins) once you accept him (or he you, for the Calvinists in the audience), I don't see how you can throw him out. Many "walk" away, but God in his mercy, keeps them in the fold.

I've always looked at this verse as God takes of the animals (even though they die daily) and they don't toil, but you (people) are much more precious to God.

Welcome to GSC Greg.

This thread is not just finding verses that disagree with Wierwille, TWI, but actual instances where the MOGFOT got it wrong. Raf and others et al did a great job documenting the actual errors.

What you have to do is decide how to respond to those errors and the logic and conclusions based on the errors.

Seems appropriate for me to add my 2 cents.

I have maintained my renewed mind by allowing the radio preachers to challenge me. In other words, I listen to this station claiming to be a "Christian" station with 24 hour preachers ( a different one every half hour). Every one from Hagee to Swindall. As they teach subjects based on "stories" and psychological self-help stuff, I grab my Bullinger and/or my 'renewed mind' and start working on their so-called logic.

As I listen, I compare what I know the verses say compared to what they think they say.

I listen in my office at home from time to time and in my truck. When I'm in my truck, it has become normal to start yelling at the dashboard. When I was in TWI, I would sing to my steering wheel.

I listened to one of these birds the other night and observed his "teaching" for 30 minutes without going to the Bible once! ! ! !

Every once in a while, I hear them stumble on something that shows scriptural insight. But it is rare.

If this is anything like churchianity, ... no thanks.

I'm still a firm believer that JCING, TDANAN, and most of the other collaterals. With that strong of a belief in those subjects, I'd feel like a priest at Hooters.

I never liked how LCM use to rant and rave about these guys on the radio.... but now, I fully understand why he did it. And I know very few will believe this.....but I think he was right......they couldn't find the bxtts in the dark with a roadmap and a flashlight. These guys will never actually try to do a word study on some of the basic stuff. They will always teach that God controls people and sin conscienceness. Idolatry runs rampant.

Christmas and Easter are the worse... mainly because they still teach the fairy tales of Christmas and the 'Charleston Heston' version of the Passover. Why put up with that in a church?

I think if I went to church, I'd end up saying something under my breath that would get me kicked out anyway.

One more thing.

I don't go to a splinter group either.

Are you really listening, or was your mind made up to begin with and you just went looking for answers you felt comfortable with?

I give vpw's and lcm's comments about many preachers about much worth as I do about how well the war in Iraq is going. (not much).

If you read or listened to Swindoll, Stanley and even Hagee, you'll see a richness of study and knowledge that allows them to dig deep. TWI allegedly taught the Word only, but even Jesus used parables, so cut preachers some slack OK.

I believe Jesus is God, because Scripture is pretty clear on the subject.

I tossed out all of Wierwille's doctrines on the Holy Spirit. (and his Bible views as well)

I go to an Arminian-based church, but hold to Calvinistic doctrines.

Listening to a sermon is worship. One of the best books I read was Purpose-Driven Life. Rick Warren does a wonderful job of laying out how all aspects of a service is worship.

There are some people who have gotten off the hook. Sentimental reasons I guess. I remember getting reamed here on GSC for asking the same question about Donny Fugit. He was close to doctor, why didn't he stand up?

I left in 89 and I am proud.

And since most of were not linguists, we could never really be sure we or anyone else was actually speaking in tongues. So we all played along and hoped we were right after all.

God loves diversity, so it is only natural to expect diverse people meeting across the world in different ways and worshiping in different styles.

Asian christians will worship in a different way than South American or North American.

Some say denominations are different strokes for different folks.

Most don't believe they are the only ones who are right. They have a special purpose they emphasize over other churches.

When I said exception, I meant you would never see WOWs do this.

The Mormons have the be the best cult. They appear normal to the outside world, behave responsibly to all and only get controlling once you get in the group.

Here's a typical day for their missionaries. (Compare to WOW)

"Missionaries pay their own way for two years including rent, food, utilities, and laundry. Family and members of their home congregation often give financial support, but many young members of the church grow up with two banks on their dresser, one for college and one for a mission. They follow the same rules and schedule whether they serve in Africa, Asia, or Alabama- up at 6:30, exercise until 7, shower, dress, breakfast until 8. Then it’s personal scripture study until 9 and study together until 10. The rest of the day, until 9 P.M. they proseltyze.

Here's the exception.

"We go around neighborhoods knocking on doors, visiting with people, ask if they’d like to hear our message and if there is anything we can do to help them like wash windows, rake, paint," Brey says. "Part of our mission assignment is to give four hours of service each week to members of the community. We have helped in soup kitchens and hospitals, taught English as a second language, and helped lots of people move."