YID

I think you also have a group of Geerites and TWI innies who decided they were going to come in here and derail, mock, and give those who are not in love with TWI or VP, a very hard time. Now, they are going so far as to suggest those who don't agree with them are possessed, have devil spirits, a spirit of error, etc. (and is always a dead giveaway they are involved in a TWI spin off). The person doesn't like someone's opinion? Well, hey, they must be possessed. And from what I've seen of them over time, I believe its calculated.

.

Sunesis,

You failed to mention the groups of trinitarians and people who never were in TWI that "decided to come in here and derail, mock and give those who are not in love TWI of VP a very hard time?"

I fully relate to your plight, Doug. The biggest thing I missed after leaving TWI was the one on one fellowship with people with the same passion for God and His Word as I have. It's one of the reasons I visit GSC. But then, it sometimes seems the passions in Greasespot are more diversed than on the Bible. Some are passionate about everything else but the Bible. I have been a prolific witness and teacher since the ROA of '75. I still find myself witnessing and teaching at least a few times a week. Simple things that won't confront the entire error of churchianity, but enough that if there is genuine hunger, they just might figure out a lot of it on their own.

I considered a splinter group. But I don't want the TWI carbon copy of how a TWIG runs. I don't want to hear a bunch of people doing manifestations the way they did in the '70's. Above all, I don't want to partake of Communion just because it's Easter. I listen to radio station preachers on a regular basis to stay on top of my game as far as recognizing when they get off the mark. My stering wheel has heard more Bible than most anyone I associate with on a regular basis.

I've also considered running a fellowship. But, I'm not sure I can find a dozen people with the passion it would take to do it. On top of that, then you have to consider the tithing and all the other laws of the state.

The one thing I can advise is to stay true to your beliefs. People will ultimately consider you a 'Way Brain' for it, but the fact is, it's also a "Bullinger Brain" and a number of other greats in history. Continue memorizing scripture. It will come in handy.

I know a believer in Georgia that I mentored in the '80's. He is now running a fellowship and endeavoring to heal riffs between old believers of TWI and splinter groups. I have decided to send my abundant sharing to him. Find someone you think you can get behind and tithe. God will still bless you.

The presence of Mel Gibson took me back until I remembered that somewhere in his past he became a citizen.

I loved it. Made me want to memorize it.

There are some occassions when testing phone or audio equipment, I will rattle off the preamble. People always stop and listen with awe.

Brought a tear to my eye with pride. I loved it!

I tried and failed. I'm too embarrassed to mention my score.

I use to think of myself as an amatuer wordsmith. Now, I think I need to spend a lot more time reading than watching TV.

Warning!

Some readers may find the following post distasteful. Failure to think so may cause your coffee to turn cold and your lungs to collapse. Bleeding of the right eye should be reported to your doctor immediately. If you lose sleep or have memory loss just remember "Dead Doctors Don't Lie".

I remember thinking about LCM screwing around when so many other ministers in other ministries were admitting to their congregation, "I have sinned! ! !"

I thought on it for a little bit and thought how deceived they would have allowed themselves to get in order for it to get that bad.

I realized that if anything like that ever happened it would be disgraceful and totally ruin TWI....

It appears many people considered that possibility back in the '80's and '90's.

Looking back now, I think of how I appreciated his same 'ol jokes year after year. And sometimes before POP, his teachings were really powerful. Now, I don't think too many would go across the street to slice his tomatoes. I can't and won't excuse his blunder, but today when I think of him, I try to remember the things I appreciated before POP.

I always loved his teaching on the 4-D's of Doulos Doings. I can't remember them right now, but when I do, I'll appreciate the cleverness of teaching it.

The above post is posted by a person infected with CRS and is liable for nothing said.

Ewwww! Truthfully he didn't need one....think about it.

I was just thinking today about him. How if he would have some humility he would be better off in the long run. He should be honest and make some public statements of apology, etc.

I was even thinking he could possibly make a big chunk of change writing a tell all book something like "My Life as a Christian Cult Leader, from the former President of The Way International"

God, the stories he could tell!

It would do him some good to let it all out and to express his feelings on the experience.

On the other hand........hell is not frozen over yet.

Re:Apology

I thought in his announcement to resign he offered an apology. Not that anyone accepted it.

Re: the stories he could tell.....

I think I could write a song: "Let my cult.....tell the story........."

It would be great for him to let it all out and express his feelings on the experience... But it would probably incite criminal behavior by many.

I also received an education in corporate loyalty. After losing a lot of jobs, I found the only person I can count on is little 'ol me.

Self employment is not easy, but it's rewarding. Once you get past the first few months you find you can survive for years. I had a janitorial service which required about $125.00 to start, I worked my own hours for the most part, and the weather never got in my way.

It's kind of gross work. But there are ways to overcome the obstacles. I cleaned rest rooms for restaurants and stores. I charged $15.00 per visit. I spent quality time at the front end (first few visits) and had it easy from then on. Glad to offer insight and advise.

Send me a message.

Ask the doctor specific questions.

Is the tumor burrowed in or is a surface tumor? If it's burrowed in, ask him how the surgery will affect aspects of your life. Such as snoring when you sleep? Breathing? Swallowing? Swimming? Exercising?

This may give you the chance to give him directions on how to continue and minimize the effects.

When I was informed I needed surgery to remove a brain tumor, I looked at stuff on the internet but was not prepared for some of the side effects...like sleep apnea.

I"ve survived it somewhat. I now have a c-pap machine to help me sleep without snoring.

I'll be praying for you.

Hey Yid, newbie, you know nothing of Juedes?

Why are you so ignorant?

If you want to know, why don't you go to his site and read about him?

Or, why don't you take the time to do a search here?

He's come on here, given his credentials and talked to whom ever wanted to talk to him.

Why don't you go ask him those questions yourself?????

So, which group are you with - Geer's or are you still in TWI?

Your self-righteous, smug, nastiness gives you away.

Which group are you with?

We've got Geerites and innies here who love to spew their poison over simple discussions.

Since you are the same ilk, which group are you?

Don't lie and say you've been out for years and are not affiliated with anyone.

To speak to you regarding my status with TWI and other splinter groups would be stupid. You won't believe anything I say regarding my status. But for the sake of argument, I am not part of TWI or off shoots.

I still believe the Bible and I never considered VPW to have all the answers. Especially since no one does.

I took your challenge and read a little on Dr. JJ. As I thought, he proves himself to be the ultimate Trinitarian and would yell from the top of the mountains the exact opposite of what I believe. He mentions in his rebuttle of VPW that VP left out information which should have been mentioned. Funny... I thought the same thing about Dr.JJ. Like the verse that explains how we are to pray to Jesus....Let's see if I have it right?

Our Father, Son and Holy Ghost,

Hallowed be thy names

Thy Kingdoms come

Thy wills be done

on earth as it is in heaven...ect.

Jesus Christ himself was teaching the disciples how to pray and he left that out?

On a number of occassions, I have remarked the point that "truth on the lips of the towns greatest liar is still truth."

So as to not practice what I preach I will yeild to a few points. No doubt Dr. JJ has some 20 years of finding fault and throwing mud at TWI and that makes him an expert. I'm not. However, I do reserve the right to reject his rhetoric because I got something from VPW and alot of other people in here when they were standing with him.

I still believe the Bible is true...at least what I understand of it. Dr. JJ never sat through any teachings where VPW explained the 5 kinds of believing in the Bible. I sometimes listen to the church radio stations around here. They don't understand the 5 catagories of believing either. Hence, I firmly believe they do a lot more damage than TWI ever did.

So, there's another dose of my spewed poison over the discussion in here. As for smug and self-righteous? my face is not all narleyed out while I typing this.

I reserve the right to think the Bible is true and all the unbelief in the world isn't going to turn it into a lie. However, people will utlimately take a swipe at defaming and discrediting it. Do you believe that?

Granted, I haven't read every post on this thread. By the time I got to the 2nd page it occurred to me that I know nothing of Dr. J. Did he take the class? Did he ever take a stand? Did he take the class, go to college and decide he could disprove everything taught by VPW? His unbelief is astounding. And the people infected by his poison are being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine IMHO.

One point of slight disagreement I would like to make is Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and the others do not teach a "no God needed" doctrine like VPW did. In fact, if you really listen to them, they teach that this law only applies to what has been promised by God. They are also much more inteligent about how to reach that point and what to do if you are not there. Copeland and Hagin have both gone to doctors and told people they have done so. They also encourage people to go to the doctor. Their main focus is to operate at the level you are at. If you feel you need to go to a doctor - go, but trust God to work through that doctor.

They do teach the power of words and that negative words can tear down your personal trust in God and positive words will help you build up your trust. (Sometimes the Copelands go a little overboard here.) But what they teach is really much different than the law of believing as taught by VPW.

I will admit however that often people go off with half-cocked notions about what these people are teaching. They hear part of the message, (the part they want to hear) and don't hear the rest. There is also a danger teaching believing (temporary) over faith (long term trust). The focus of our trust is God, not healing or deliverance. but God. When we teach via examples in our own lives, we sometimes lose that focus.

This is the post that got my attention. Keith points out the contrast between VPW and these trinitarians. I am aware there are some trinitarians in here. But Gee Willakers!

Then I remembered Proverbs 6 where this remarkable section exposes the real work going on.

"16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

I know the whole believing topic got taken to extremes. Good Greif! I remember hearing people claim they could speak in tongues and people would get healed. (Never saw that documented).

For those of you with the mindset that VPW was all about false doctrine and plagerism, it would seem you are getting your dander up over a topic with no solution. Screaming at the sun won't make it go away. Proverbs 11:1 says,

1A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

I always understood God set up the law of believing and that believing His Word produced results. If I didn't get the desired results I learned to moved on to enjoy God and His Word anyway.

While I think of it... is Dr. J. a trinitarian? His scholastic credentials hold no weight for me if he is sowing discord. And everything I've seen in this thread is indicative of the fact.

If he knows the hair on your head and the stars in the heavens, I'd think He's got everything covered. Wouldn't you have to be bigger than God to challenge that?

And their shoes are polished and their hair is trimmed. What a crowd pleaser they must've been. Even the parents appreciated their talent. And the girls probably fell all over them.

I love to teach what I know regarding the Bible. Which isn't what it use to be. But I'm always aware of questions people ask. Not knowing their motive for asking the question can come back to bite you. As a general rule I was taught, there are a few reasons people ask questions....They either want to know.... or they want to argue or ridicule.

By the response Jesus gave, (IMHO) I am led to believe Pilate was not interested in knowing the answer.

Google "Dead Doctors Don't Lie".

Intereresting information which has some insight. We trust our lives to people with a life span of only 55 to 65 years. I enjoy points like this. It shows someone is thinking.

Whether or not any of it is true is directly related to how ill you are at the time you hear the tape. I wish I still had the tape to listen to it now 10 years after my first listening.

I'm not in a comma. But I'm in a perpectual state of dormant mental awareness.

When I think of all the money and hype in producing Atheletes of the Spirit, I am awed at how much better this production was. Simple to the point....God's votin' fer ya, Devil's votin' agin ya...you determine the election.

===

II Timothy 2:15 KJV

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

II Timothy 2:15 NASB

15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

II Timothy 2:15 NIV

15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

=======

I think Raf was the first person I heard, way back when, who mentioned that this verse doesn't say

"God approves of us because we rightly-divide God's Word, and that the "showing" isn't to show God

"see, you should approve me."

God loves us unconditionally.

We may put forth to God that He was right to do so, and do this via rightly-dividing God's Word,

as a workman who can take pride in doing his work right,

but this doesn't win God's approval.

I don't remember ANY of this being taught in twi or pfal, IN PASSING even,

but that IS what the verse means.

In pfal, this verse was used to suggest the opposite,

that God cares most that we rightly-divide God's Word, and that other concerns are secondary.

Therefore, we are primarily to learn how to rightly-divide God's Word.

Therefore, the most important thing to do is to take the pfal class and apply ourselves to that,

the most important class, which handles the most important subject,

which you can take now...

I'm thankful to have learned value in the Bible, but this verse was mistaught, AND used deceptively

to puff up the pfal class.

Hey, if you know he broke the law and plagiarized and don't care, well, that's that.

If you understand the issues and made the choice not to care,

then we disagree and that's all there is to it.

NOBODY considers that plagiarism, because that's not what plagiarism IS.

The only time I ever hear THAT discussed is when someone who tries to excuse vpw- and it's always

vpw, never other plagiarists- by changing the meaning of plagiarism, watering it down, and making it

look like plagiarism really isn't a big deal, and that it's ok even if he DID do it.

This is simple.

If you're in a chemistry class, and the teacher teaches chemistry, and even quotes extensively from the assigned textbook,

that is not plagiarism.

If you learn chemistry and can teach someone else, that's not plagiarism.

If you take the chemistry textbook from that other class, cut-and-paste the contents and print out another textbook with the

contents of the first one, and sell it to students in YOUR chemistry class,

with your name as author on the textbook,

THAT is plagiarism.

Written forms of plagiarism are easier to document, especially when a supposed author takes the material from one book

to a LARGE degree, and refuses to cite that book in his own book as a source.

Teachers, to a degree, are EXPECTED to draw from other sources. They are NOT expected to make specific statements

to the effect that THEY are the SOLE AUTHOR of material in their classes. When vpw did that-in pfal- he plagiarized in the

class as well as in the textbooks.

But "needs and wants parallel" are not from "the Word of Truth".

They're not Biblical.

It is possible that-as well as you're able to recite the material and present it to others-

that you don't understand the underlying subjects as well as you think you do.

That's a possibility.

I'm just saying.

The point isn't that I would automatically stand approved before God but that it should be my focus. My focus changed from one to the other and that was liberating. I don't know if I stand approved before God now or not....That is His decision. I know I love reading, working, teaching and ministering what I know and believe. I find myself content. Unlike where I was trying to stand approved before men.

Isn't there a verse about it "raining on the just and the unjust."?

Probably the earth shattering concrete and practical value for me was learning II Timothy 2:15 in depth.

Until I took the class, I struggled to stand approved before family, freinds, teachers, administrators at school and of course, teachers and coaches. It never worked. I was always inept at it. If I pleased one, I'd offend the rest in some way. Someone around me seemed to be disappointed in something I said or did and I'd feel responsibile to grovel for forgiveness.

VPW is accussed of plagerism and walking on copywrite infractions. I have never been that concerned with the issue. If someone teaches me chemistry and I work it to the point that I can prove it and make it work for someone else, I don't consider it plagerism.

Disagreeable as that may be to many, I'm thankful VPW had a way to reach ME! ! ! Billy Grahm couldn't, the Pope couldn't, Swaggart and Roberts were out of the question. But the material in the class did! It took years for me to understand needs and wants parallel and a few other topics. Once I did, I could teach it. It's mine to teach because I know it well. I have witnessed to and taught people who became good leaders. Branch and Limb Coordinators with heart.

That's pretty fulfilling for me. And that's practical.

I wonder what it would have been like if there was no TWI?

If we peel time back to when He*fner and Do*p were witnessing in New York and California, and eliminate VPW, and have allowed God to call people to serve, what should it have become? What would have looked like?

This may be unpopular to the crowd of TWI haters, but this is a very real possibility. I would have probably ended up in prison or dead by 30. I was too stupid to avoid it and the particulars in the life before during and after that I look back on are miraculous. I don't expect anyone to be cheering because I am so thankful for the 21 years I was in, but I have considered it for a long time.

The verse that changed my life in PFAL was II Tim 2:15. Up until that time I had tried to stand approved before everyone but God. Teachers, family, community and church.... and I couldn't do it and felt to inept to try. Once I found out how simple it was to stand approved before God, I latched on to it like a rock climber on a roap. It carried me through 21 years of the bs I put up with and even now after I'm out.

I was in the army when I took the class. Without TWI, I would have become a lifer and had the personality of pack of camels.

I was so naive about life I probably would have become a drug addict or something stupid like that. I certainly would have been a greater mess without TWI than I ended up with TWI.

I don't like what VPW and LCM did to the ministry. Even today when I witness to someone and get into the depth of teaching I have them to use as an example of people who got tricked. Thankfully, the Bible is still the Bible. Men come and go.

When I grow up, I want to be just like her.

Hap! ! ! ! !

I'm DOWN with that! ! !

Reminds me of a girlfriend I had in highschool. She never knew what was UP and it all ways got her DOWN.

But I think she finally got 'ROUND to getting OVER it.

I see what you are saying, Mr. Hamm... What the heck is the point of the doomsday predictions if we're all just going to die anyway? So we can worry and be miserable about it until it does or does not happen?

What's the point of that? Life's stressful enough without that hanging over our heads.

If the world was coming to an end I'd probably start smoking again, and eat every pastry that came in sight...

Seems to me that land in the middle of West Texas might start looking very good. I would hope and expect God would tell us when.

One of the things I've thought of in light of the book of Revelation is the two witnesses. I could be wrong, but I would expect they would have to have a real good handle on the truth of the Bible in order to be able to be willing to die. Can you imagine reading Revelation and realize you're reading about yourself? They'd better have a handle on the Bible. I think of the years and resources it required for VP to put together JCOPS. They aren't going to wake up one morning and read the Bible and say, "Hey! That could be talking about me!" I would suspect they will have to be aware of some deep stuff in the Bible in order to carry out the Word. Maybe they'll uncover a Bullinger Bible in High School and take a stand on the best they'll be able to figure out. Gee! Maybe they'll plagerize.

The Great Day of Wrath is outlined in Revelation 6.

Are you claiming that's completely separate from any "tribulation" at that time?

I'm claiming the tribulation of Revelation 6 is separate from tribulation of any other time.

Frankly, there's plenty of tribulation nowadays.

I used to suspect the Book of Revelation's countdown would start in the 1990's.

Since we're still here, I appear to have been wrong.

Do you have sources for these complaints?

I've witnessed in malls and other public venues. I've been asked to refrain from teaching the Bible in these venues or the security guard would escort me out. But you're right. I should have said public expounding of the scriptures are discouraged and frowned upon.

I'm claiming the tribulation of Revelation 6 is separate from tribulation of any other time.

So the God of all comfort will not comfort us in all our tribulation?

We wouldn't need comfort in all our tribulations if we didn't have tribulations.

Doglover,

Where it is true, we are saved from "the wrath", we are not saved from tribulation. IMHO, I venture to suspect we have about 2-5 years left before our country and the world starts to melt down spiritually. It's already illegal to quote Bible Verses in the Malls or pray in public settings. (Praying in public settings has always seemed odd to me anyway). Our freedom of speech is all but gone and our wonderful congressional body has made sure we think it odd that anyone reads the Bible.

I was talking with a friend just today. For years I have recited, "No man knows the the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in his own power." Actually, the verse reads,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth".

Several things to notice here. Jesus Christ was talking to the disciples, in their administration. Had he said, "Sorry guys, but I'm not doin' that for a few thousand years, all hell would have broken loose.

IMHO I don't believe we can know the day or even the year and month. But there are some logical indicators to observe.

1. Genesis 6 says:

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Giants are suppose to refer to people who have committed the unforgivable sin Futher examination of the next verse is indicative that the earth was over run by them. God had to clean house or the red thread would break.

2. Genesis 11:1-4

1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

It was starting up again. The entire habitation of earth were setting themselves up to saturate humanity with men born of the wrong seed. Had God not confounded them with different languages, the earth would have become overflowing with them again. God fixed that.

3. Today we have the internet and communications at the touch of a finger. Our cultures around the world are waxing worse and worse just like it says in II Tim 3:13: Just think! The Muslims we are fighting are all over 30 years old. You think their children will be Buddhist? Or even desire peace with the west?

3But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

There will come a day when no one else in the world will want to hear or allow themselves to hear the Word taught. At that point, there will be no reason for believers to be around. God does know when that time will be. We can know it won't be long. He didn't forbid that as far as I know.

Granted, it may be not be for another 1000 years but then, if it is, it won't matter a whole hexx of a lot, will it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know. Probably someone who objects to my paying attention to advanced classes I took.

I'm use to rejection..... I was married 20 years.

Now for you who love prophets of doom, this should be fun to spin on.