TheEvan

All the more reason to stay, M&O. This is a great place to vent and get it out of your system. "Forgetting" about the past seems reasonable but really isn't possible. Our past, undealt with, has a tendency to bounce around inside of us and may come out in other, unintended ways (Sorry for the pop psychology there). So, vent away.

BTW, I share your feelings about that worthless & harmful bag of doo-doo called PFAL, for what it's worth.

Oh man.

I'm reading the Branham critique. This is fascinating. He was, as I suspected, a 'hillbilly', not that this judges him one way or another.

He believed Eve's sin was sexual in nature.

He believed he was the special envoy to restore "Bible truth".

Holy cow, now I'm listening to his broadcast. He does sound 'hick' but definitely intelligent. Offhand, I hear more connections to Wierwille than I do Leonard. Especially in the sense that both claimed a unique position in the history of the church (like it hasn't been known since the 1st century, etc), something Leonard never did, afaik.

Reminds me of the Corps weeks when Martindale & Wierwille floated the "athletes only" doctrine. It was presented by Mr. Fore Head and we were given, what?, a day to "work" it.

My skeptical buddies & I found problems in the proposition that *all military language in the NT was wrong.

So we have the "discussion". ForeHead is front & center. Also on stage are Wierwille & cummins. After some more from the stage we are invited to share our questions, agreements, problems. Yeah. Same deal. Fawning & butt-kissing; shameless, emabarrassing. Emboldened by one another, our posse lined up behing a mic. Each of us were angrily interrupted ...not by Mr. Rev Fore S. Head, but by Big Daddy MotorCoach Hisself. His comments, though a bit more articulated, amounted to "shut up dummy, we don't want to hear it".

For Fore Head this was learned behavior.

Garth said "Since there has been so relatively few really successful marriages over the centuries, and since the ones that are/were have crossed so many religious/social boundaries, it puts more holes in that teaching than would sink the Titanic."

Garth man, please elaborate. Could you be projecting the divorce & non-marriage trends of today onto yesteryear. Or is the key your understanding of "really successful"?

My marriage of 22 years, though not without problems, is really successful. I would venture that something approaching half the posters here would testify likewise. Okay, wild guess.

I saw it las night and found it deeply moving. My son afterwards said "I wish I had that kind of faith, that I was that courageous". Interesting response to what, at times, is a bloodbath. (I told him that this level of faith is already deep within him and that it and the bravery would surface, not by trying, but by *being those things when occasion called for it).

Tom Cruise was surprisingly excellent. The male & female leads were luminous...some of the better acting I've ever seen.

A better comparision than DWW is, as mosh mentioned, is Braveheart. Similar look, sentiment, nobility, etc.

Common themes? I suppose so. Luther, for one.

One interesting facet they chose to highlight is the rebellion among the peasants that broke out when Luther was in hiding & writing in the castle. One of Luther's protege's turned Luther's spiritual message political. The peasants rebelled, smashing any symbols of Roman idolatry/oppression. of course, this event had an hoffific end as you might expect.

They did a nice job of showing wicked sense of humor & satire for which he was well known. I don't think I remember that from the Burton portrayal.

We saw it at a cinema that does indie type films. It is excellent, startling, violent, and, so far as i can remember, quite faithful. Naturally, condensing Luther's life into a 2 hour film means choices must be made, so there are many omissions I wish were there. Nonetheless, this far outshines the Richard Burton B&W versions.

In some instances the fact of an aspect or event in Luther's life are not spelled out, only hinted at. I'm thinking Franco Zefferelli's Jesus of Nazareth as opposed to the execrable (imo) Jesus film...

Highly reccommended.

Okay, we're having having thread creep, but who am I to be the creep that steers it back on track, just when we're having fun?

That there is suffering is not a point of argument. Not even that Christians suffer. The difference comes in your philosophy about the suffering. Mainstream theology (to which I subscribe, in the main) says that we suffer because of the sinful fallen condition of man and the world he lives in. Also, those who live godly in Christ are promised to suffer persecution. We also know that God tests us. And corrects us. Reading examples of how he corrected people in the Bible may prove instructive. Note also that tribulation is positive in producing patience. Jesus called us to take up our cross and follow him. Aside from the inevitable suffering this life brings, there is a cost to truly following Jesus. If there is no cost, perhaps that person isn't following Him, hmmn?

On the other hand you have Wierwillism, or 'believism', which says that suffering is 'of the dayvil' and is not part of a Christian's life. Its presence in a believers' life is simply a 'lack of believing' or 'operating principles' incorrectly. The perfecting that God does in us through our suffering is lost entirely because it is 'negative'.

ex10th....long-low-whistle here. Very, very good stuff that is at the heart of the very basics of sound theology

Great post, Dan.

What does this have to do with the Catholic Church, oldies? A straw man, perhaps?

Yes, the substance of the cross was deliberately and overtly minimized. In Way doctrine it was sublimated to the ressurrection. (Nothin "good" about Good Friday, Wierwille said). It was considered milk where "the mystery" was considered meat. I maintain that the rotten fruit was a direct result of missing entirely this essential point of our faith, as Dan pointed out. Wierwille's tip of the hat to the meaning of the cross was another exercise in "biblical accuracy" that missed the point altogether.

Well, that was quite a nailbiter of a game. (Archie will Never grow his nails back, ever!) Ole Miss played magnificently. One made field goal and we're talking overtime. 2 and they win.

So, LSU didn't really beat ole Miss. They were just the lucky winners...

Microphone? What microphone? Can't I just play 'real loud' and the 'puter will 'hear me'??

;)-->

Condolences in advance for LSU whuppin' up on the Rebs...

Maybe I could post some MP3's of my classical playing. Or perhaps via a link. Wait, isn't Sudo the MP3 master? I'm anxious to hear my newest guitar's recorded sound. I suspect it will sound particularly beautiful. We'll see.

Right now i'm on a Brazilian kick. I've got some Baden Powell, Marco Pereira (SO cool) & Paulo Bellinatti under my belt and am learning more Bellinatti as I type.

Did I hear they divorced? God, I hope I'm wrong.

Radar, in all of that information do have any of the work done by Dr. Stephanie Cave? She is our former pediatrician and a casual friend. It is our understanding that she has become a national authority on the topic. Her practice involves therapies & treatments for this kind of autism.

Oh wow, I just did a google search. Too many hits. Very big field! It looks like Stephanie and her partner are treating over 1900 autistics. Couldn't get a handle on the regimen, but it involves cleansing from heavy metals among other things.

My heart goes out to parents of autistics.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lightside:

But I always wondered why VPW, who seemed to want his believer folks to walk in the power of God, never invited BG to teach on healing and the power of God. Even if some or a bunch of what he taught wasn't the Word, the corps could rightly divide it and gleam out the good stuff. I'm sure VPW knew that Leonard was performing miracles, even up to 1985."

{To me, the answer is self-evident. VP couldn't face BG after what he had done.}

"My question is, Did Leonard have some knowledge of God's Word, that would have really helped us manifest God's Power more abundantly? Was VPW so out of fellowship with God (in a sin mode) that he could not see what Leonard saw in God's Word."

{Yes.

Yes.}

From what I'm hearing around here, when extwi believers take Leonards class, they seem to see the

"missing link" to walking in the power of God.

"My take on the matter is that part of the absent Christ teaching and VPW's sinful life, we got tricked out of seeing how the pioneer and finisher of our faith healed people. We just got so tricked into hearing the same message, over and over again of what we have in Christ; but no real Word centered clear cut teaching on how the Master healer, Jesus, did it and how we can follow in his footsteps and example.

Any comments?

---

Very perceptive Lightside. In fact, there are other 'missing links' from VP's body of teaching, but I tend to characterize them as gaping holes.

1 - What was B.G. Leonard's background?

(academic, etc.)

I don't know enough to answer. i think i can safely say that he lacked formal education. Yet the sweep of his knowledge, in my experience, was great. Can we call hom sel-educated? Note that he made no claims, AFAIK, as to his education, unlike Wierwille.

2 - Did B.G. Leonard ever take PFAL?

Details?

No

3 - Did B.G. Leonard know of the apparent

use of his work by VPW?

If so, why didn't he take appropriate

action to stop it?

Yes he did. The extent of his action, AFAIK, was to preface his books with a warning about plagiarism.

4 - Is/was the B.G. Leonard ministry part of

a church somewhere(Texas?).

How do they "move the Word"?.

Details?

No, Leonard's ministry was always independent. Its focus was/is to equip Christians with the whole armor of God. It was geared to helping people walk in their own ministry. It was never set up so you could join and participate. You take what you learn and go back and put it to use whereever you are...

5 - Why was B.G. Leonard at VPW's funeral?

Who invited him?

He wasn't at Wierwille's funeral. But he & Mrs. Leonard were at the ScoreWeek that summer after VP died. I can't rememeber who invited them. I'm thinking it was Pam Craley, Way historian.

Oh, and Dale can speak for himself, but I am unaware of Dale ever having spent any time with Leonard other than taking his Gifts of the Spirit course. In fact, of this I'm quite sure. You proabably just got the wrong impression from something Dale said...

Yes, Leonard was there, along with Mrs. Leonard. But not at the funeral, but that next Racca Ages. Or mebbe it was just for Score week. Mrs. Leonard said it was surreal. They put them up in a trailer on grounds. They had a session in the BRG hosted byPam Craley, the historian. She asked them questions of interest to Way history which they answered kindly and circumspectly. BG's answers were more preaching than simply story telling. I asaw a video of this session.

There was a steady stream of people going to the trailer at all hours for healing. When the Great Fore Head heard of this a sentry was posted there to keep people away! So they'd sneak in the back door. I recall there were lots of health problems at HQ in those days. Hmmm.

This was the very Score Week during which the Fore Skin went ballistic on Leonard & the region leader. I'm hoping the Leonard's were already gone!

A word on Leonard. He and Mrs. stayed in our home for nearly 3 weeks. BG was very old and not fully with it. And he needed a good deal of 'personal assistance'. Whie I think one could rightly call him a bit of a "crank" in some ways and holding some curious views, he was an incredibly humble & gracious guest, always preferring to cause no trouble, draw no attention to himself. He loved children and loved just sitting with our kids around the kitchen table. His demeanor was my idea of Christian. Quite a contrast to Wayfer prima donnas.

Besides Leonard's teachings & books he also wrote poetry, wicked satire under a funny nom de plumme, and hundreds of hymns of remarkably high quality, including perhaps a hundred in Spanish.

No way to investigate this one I guess, but now I'm wondering whenVic Wierwille started going by VP? Could it have been in '53 shortly after taking a certain class from a certain obscure minister in Calgary?

I understand the sentiment, but my experience is quite the opposite.

Well, I think oldies & dot are a bit out of line, but emotions can run high. I'm sure both will be down to earth in no time.

I can understand the *feeling that any benefit in the The Way was from God & Leonard because I felt that way after taking Leonard's class. But with a bit more perspective, I think that's an emotional response not based on fact.

I mean, from a spiritual perspective, all glory belongs to God only. Not to BG, and I think we can agree, not to Wierwille.

But I can state, just from a biblical perspective, that Wierwille was not a true minister in any sense of the word. He disqualified himself on pretty much every count. I think his behavior wholly invalidates everything he did and he deserves no credit at all. I say that in the same sense that Jim Jones' actions actions makes him, upon consideration, evil. Not a minister of the gospel. Yet Jones said/did plenty of good things or so many folks wouldn't have followed him. Yet, I fear no contradiction in calling him evil. Similarly, I fear no contradiction in calling Wierwille evil. I don't care how many people got healed, met the Lord, yada yada. By the definitions of the VERY Bible that Wierwille worshipped he was not a minister of the gospel.

And in Leonard's work I find a thing that is utterly original. I don't agree with everything he taught, or some of his approaches. But still, his body of teaching had an integrity and a cohesiveness that Wierwille's never had.

He taught it more convincingly because the material was his.

Leonard was a master in the field of healing (among many others). I'll say it plainly. What he taught works. The reason Wierwille's didn't, by and large (the results were always, at best, spotty) is because of the changes he made where he deemed Leonard "inaccurate".

But I don't think it's accuracy, per se, that gives a spark to a person's ministry. It is, rather, their integrity and honesty with people and before God. If a person has a genuine call of God and walks it out this will be evident to others. One can argue whether Wierwille had a genuine call or not. But I can definiteively say he did not walk it out. His behavior gave ample proof of that

Wierwille didn't write it. It was a team that came up with the conclusions that Wierwille mandated. Hence, the writing seems better than Wierwille's plaigarized works.

I theorize that Leonard had some influence in this regard insofar as he didn't believe in the Trinity. But he wasn't a source for the book, I'm confident. Wierwille still believed in the Trinity in the early 60's, long after his exposure to Leonard. Saw it in an old way mag.

Leonard's conception of the Godhead is, I think, quite similar (though not the same as) Oneness Pentecostals.

Doesn't anybody remember the Great Fore Head going vein-popping spit-spraying potty-mouthed apoplectic at a Corps Week about a certain region leader taking Leonard's Gifts of teh Spirit? He portrayed it as treasonous and worse...

-->

-->

-->