rubina

1 hour ago, Oakspear said:

I'd just be curious if there was still a Way presence here in Nebraska. When I left in 2001 there was one anemic twig composed mainly of two families. It was considered an "outlying fellowship" of the Kansas City Branch. I officiated at a wedding a few years ago and all the old timers from that twig were there (the groom was the son of a Wayfer) but I didn't want to talk to them

I'm not sure how many, but I'm pretty sure there are still Wayers in Nebraska.

Ok, thanks for the information guys. 

29 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Why do you not think that's what really happened?

I'm not all that informed on Geer, but if I remember correctly Gartmore was in pretty poor shape from the beginning and Geer eventually decided to move back to Maine. 

On 8/1/2020 at 7:50 PM, skyrider said:

Looking at all these names of clergy from years ago......it looks like about 10 of those are still with twi.  So, it does make me wonder that when 2nd generation (or 3rd generation) wayfers come here to GSC........how many of them ever even heard of some of these men and women?  Much less ask themselves the thought-provoking questions like....1) If twi was so good, then why did all these clergy abandon this ministry?  2) So shortly after wierwille's death.....why did it collapse so quickly?  3) If the principles of integrity and commitment were solid, then it should have stood for decades like a rock, no?  4) Why didn't wierwille address all these schisms that were developing in twi before his death?  5) Is Vern Edwards just the latest next-man-up?  6) With all of this history of upheaval, deception and turmoil......what else are they hiding?

You have every right to ask questions !!

You have every right to inspect the fruit of their actions !!

On 8/2/2020 at 1:12 AM, T-Bone said:

And speaking of the 2nd and 3rd generation of way-believers…I sometimes wonder about those who have never visited Grease Spot. What does the “old guard” tell them about the massive exits? Or is it something that doesn’t come up that much? Maybe that’s been addressed on some other threads before - if so point me in the right direction.

On 8/2/2020 at 9:03 PM, skyrider said:

Seems like most make their escape from twi at age 18 and head off to college.  Yet, there are a small few who head off to college and could attain good careers with their degrees, but desire the offices of cult-leadership.  To me......it baffles the mind with internet and social media access that 2nd generation wayfers would make that choice, but it's there.  Young men like Brian Moneyhands and Chand--ler Greene.

Ok, it seems like I have a few questions to answer. First of all, no we rarely hear the names of anyone who was big in the Weirwille era and left, and if we do its generally from someone telling a story and mentioning them in passing.

Second, we generally hear about the "Fog Years" sooner or later. Not from the official ministry account of its history, of course, but from people and parents, so I can only speak for my personal experiance. Most of the stories I heard were told with a spin that the Way is successful and righteous and its enemies are unsuccessful and evil. I had heard of Geer, but all I knew about him was that he went off and did his own thing and something about his board of directors shutting down and selling his property at Gartmore because of how much of a failure it was (I don't think that's what actually happened). I also heard stories about entire states breaking away from Headquarters, but HQ was always strong and survived. I was generally told that most people who left weren't interested in the Word or were tricked by the devil. I knew that people left, but one of the biggest shocks for me was learning the massive scale of it. Also, Martindale was characterized as someone who "just made a mistake" or never fully got out of his jock lifestyle and any mention of his misdeeds was followed with a "the ministry can't be judged by the actions of one man."

I can't speak for others, but one of the biggest fears for me about Googling the Way was that I would be tricked off the Word by the devil, or maybe even become possessed myself. I figured that there were a lot of devil spirits at work to cause people to post hateful things about the Way to stop us from being able to teach the truth of God's Word.

I saw someone post this in the friend tracker section and I believe it deserves more attention. A number of people have addressed the culture of sexual predation that VP left behind him. I can't say how much TWI was involved in this, but whatever the background this is still absolutely sickening. 

Former BOD member Robert McCulloch was convicted of Abduction, Gross Sexual Imposition, and Public Indecency with a 7 year old female:

https://www.icrimewatch.net/offenderdetails.php?OfndrID=2050019&AgencyID=55149

He was on the Board sometime between 2009 and 2012 judging from a post and the WayBack Machine:

On 11/13/2009 at 9:42 PM, OldSkool said:

 

Board of Directors

* Rosalie F. Rivenbark, Chairman of the Board

* Jean-Yves De Lisle

* Robert McCulloch

* Vince McFadden

* John Rupp

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120722062936/http://www.theway.org/index.php?page=home&lang=en

I don't know if this crime was committed when he was on the board, but it is possible because he was convicted in early 2014.

2 hours ago, Twinky said:

I found this about Rosie.  Can't speak for its accuracy.

Rivenbark is a graduate of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte and received a master's degree in English from Appalachian State University ref|sidney1. Prior to her work at The Way International, she worked in the field of education and taught at the elementary, high school, and college levelsref|sidney1.

I think its accurate. It's citing one of the newspaper articles in the archives here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030306024625/http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/lawsuit/sidney-05-26-00.htm

the part you pointed out is in the second to last paragraph

I think you bring up a good point about the HQ-field divide. I believe only a small portion of the already small number of recent Way Corps grads actually go out into the field. I also think you are dead on when it comes to the age and state of the field corp. Another indicator is that the majority of region coordinators used to be reverends, but by now they've lost so many reverends that they don't have enough to fill all these spots with them.

It may have been another driving reason why they put Vern, a man who has spent the vast majority of his time in the field, in the driver's seat. Even if they are mostly concerned about the money, they need someone who can straighten the field back out so the money will keep coming in.

5 hours ago, skyrider said:

As a limb coordinator back in 1992-1998.......I had to fill out monthly reports of 1) Number of new people witnessed to, 2) Number of new people who attended twi that month, and 3) Number of pfal signups.   Even back then, people did NOT want to go witnessing and the number of new people attending twig or signing up for pfal was dismal.  Yeah, some 25 years ago......it became grueling to promote twi's condescending classes.  

Things in the USA have changed dramatically since these corps graduated from the training program back in 1974-1986.  Marriage.  Kids.  Grandkids.  Homeownership or rental rates rising.  Need to buy healthcare insurance.  Retirement savings?  Health issues?  How did twi treat others with health issues in the latter stages of life?  And then...... seeing that Craig Martindale got a $65,000 pension per year from twi.  Does Rosalie get a $65,000 pension per year?  Will Donna get this same pension plan?

 

Those corps, ages 60-70 years old........most likely, wanted to be counted among the faithful AND retire in dignity. 

 

I don't know what paperwork they are given, but I remember being told by my fellowship coordinators a year or two ago that we had to report back to them when we had spoken to a coworker about some recent topic we heard a teaching on. This kind of strikes me as being some initiative from the top. I kind of feel bad for them because I don't think anybody did it and they were likely given a judgmental silent treatment (Rosalie's replacement for LCM era face meltings) by their leadership.  

I wanted to hear more and think through a good response to what is going on before I posted something here about whose calling the shots in the Way, but this is what I think is going on:

Vern's current role in the Way is similar to that of Gorbachev's in the Soviet Union.

The story starts with the state of the Way in the 2000's: its still significant assets have been depreciating, and it shows. TWI has been destroying buildings and selling property that it doesn't have the resources to maintain. The Way had been creeping along, but its stagnation wasn't of any critical concern, until 2017.

In 2017, Revival and Restoration comes along. As tough as TWI wanted to be with R&R, it was not as invincible as it made itself out to be. The M&As of various state and region coordinators took a toll on TWI. The number of followers in the US had always been small, but in the wake of R&R, TWI's numbers had become unsustainably small and so did the ABS inflows.

The initial solution from leadership was simple: MORE WITNESSING. Way of the USA (Trunk Office) lit a fire under every follower to go out witnessing more, but the reaction from the rank and file followers was mixed and only the most devout answered the call. Even with more people walking around malls and knocking on doors, the results were poor. Thanks to the combined forces of the cold and bureaucratic rules about classes, and Google, TWI found little success recruiting more followers.  I don't know what the plan with JYDL was, maybe to better connect with TWI's large francophone following from West Africa, but that seemed to take a lesser priority to increasing ABS for whoever was in charge. In the end, JYDL played the role of the scapegoat for TWI's under-performance (although even among the most devout, you will hear whispers that Rosalie should have retired earlier, so I don't know if anyone actually believes that).

Enter Vern. By now, Rosalie had seen the writing on the wall and that TWI couldn't keep doing what it had been doing for at least the past 20 years and was at least willing to delegate. I think Vern will actually make changes in how things are done on staff and in the field. He has the power to do so. The other BOD members don't live on grounds and I suspect have little sway outside their at most quarterly meetings. Donna and the Secretary Treasurer (who I think is her sister) will keep their eyes on Vern and the ABS inflows, but I don't think they will get involved in daily decision making unless Vern takes a step too far. Rosalie too could probably take a more active role, staff and region leadership has grown used to unquestioningly taking orders from her over the past 20 years and I doubt that her losing her title can do anything to change that. 

In the end, Vern might make TWI a more appealing place for those born into it and cut the red tape for recruits, but TWI will always have to face the challenge of Google. The dark stories of TWI's past are only a click away, and if you don't want to take the time to read, there's even a couple of podcast episodes you can listen to. Any real reform would require addressing TWI's sketchy past, and judging by his letter and those who are overseeing him, I don't think he has the luxury or the personal willingness to do that. So like Gorbachev, he is in the impossible position of reforming a system that was broke from the very beginning. 

I can now confirm that Vern is the president, John Rupp is the chairman of the board and that Donna Martindale is the CEO. This was announced at the last STS. 

But there is one glimmer of hope with Vern: he is by no means an elitist. He really believes what he is doing and doesn't give himself special privileges. 

I've heard that Rupp is the Chairman of the Board. This stems from a push to bring the way TWI is run closer to that of other "non-profit organizations" which means increasing the independence of the Officers from the Board of Directors. Besides the lack of one man calling the shots, there are other factors ruining the possibility of reform. The majority of current followers (in the US I mean, TWI has a much more vibrant and sizable following in some West African countries and Venezuela) are converts from the Martindale era and some of current leadership stems all the way back from the Wierwille era. At their age, neither the leadership, nor the followers have much interest in change or reform. Everybody wants to keep the status quo. 

Nice find Twinky 

This helps explain Vern's rapid accession through the Way's ranks. His "stand" against R&R brought him into favor with the powers that be. (or should I say "that were" ) 

Way leadership is about as opaque as it gets, so I don't think we can be certain about what transpired unless someone steps forward, which is unlikely. But, none of that is going to dampen my curiosity so I'll weigh what I find to be the most convincing options.

On 3/7/2020 at 6:40 PM, Longhunter said:

At tomorrow’s STService (March 8, 2020) The Way will announce that they are replacing Jean-Yves De Lisle as President of TWI. 

At this point, it’s safe to say RR is a megalomaniac and has no checks and balances and is really in a bad place mentally. I think we will see either another wave of fallout evacuees (reaction to her loose handle antics) or some major push back against her internally that results in her full removal or a splintering of leadership (more offshoots). It’s just not looking good for them. 
 

As Longhunter was right on one count, I think it is safe to say that his information should be taken seriously, so I think the ousting theory has some merit to it. Also, I'm personally drawn to it because it has the most intrigue and raises questions about our notions of who was pulling the strings over the years.

On 6/17/2020 at 6:42 AM, skyrider said:

 

This is not surprising.

At age 80.....I would imagine that Rosalie is tired, truly tired, of keeping up daily pretenses.  And, looking in her mirror.....it was time to face the reality that her aged body is not camera-ready without a lot of constant work.

The daily grind of details.....who quit, who exited, and who is going to go in and do damage control.  Hundreds of corps have exited since 2005.  And, that 2017 exodus took a swath of "big-names" (moynihans, forts, horneys, magnellis, fredericks, etc.) many who'd been involved since the early 70s.  Even for Rosa-lie.....that had to be depressing.  Could it be that this last *patch it up before leaving* was Rosa-lie's attempt to save a smidgeon of her legacy?  Yeah, a legacy of destruction.

She had to clean up that unfortunate mishap with choosing Jean-Yves to run things.  But now.....she can claim to have held the post for 20 years as she holds onto this legend in her own mind.

So now, Rosalie will sit in an emeritus seat alongside Howard (the Duck) and Wanda.  What grand company the emeritus group is.....  LOL

There will be no change.....just a reshuffling of the deck chairs.

 

 

.

The growing old and tired theory is not quite as fun, but I really feel like it's what happened. Rosalie, like any other person, cares about her legacy and doesn't want to drag the Way to her grave. Besides, I can't think of anyone who has the power to oust Rosalie, Vern was just given his position and is probably still learning the ropes. Rupp and Greene both live outside of HQ and I don't think that they would have the power to oust Rosalie, although it is possible. 

Rosalie isn't dead, or at least I haven't seen any obituary for her. It is possible that she has some chronic illness, but I haven't heard anything to confirm or deny it.

On 6/19/2020 at 12:11 AM, Rocky said:

 

Does it matter? Is the culture of the organization going to change? I doubt it.

At the end of the day, I don't think the change of leadership is going to fundamentally change how the Way functions. The bureaucracy is firmly entrenched and will continue to do what it has always done. All decision-making is done through its shaping, it's not like the leadership is going to change the PFAL class system, reform the Way Corpse, and gut departments at HQ. If there are any changes, they definitely will not happen overnight. 

11 hours ago, T-Bone said:

thanks, Rubina

You're welcome

15 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Seriously?  About how many minutes in did he say it?

timestamp: 5:40

He reads Genesis 1:29

²⁹ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat

and then asks:

"How many of you like seedless grapes?" (I assume a number people raised their hands) "sure we do, all counterfeits are appeal (sic) to the five senses, don't they. But nothing's said there about seedless grapes for food, seedless oranges, seedless grapefruit, that's where the devil's got involved a little bit." 

2 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I clicked on the bookstore (   TWI bookstore  and   research  ) and noticed that Power For Abundant Living (the orange book) is NOT listed there…guess I never got the memo on this omission in the lineup LOL  - was this discussed before on Grease Spot?

I believe that the orange book is now given to advanced class students during the class

On 6/11/2020 at 9:50 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

Teaching By Ira Hearne On Organic Gardening At The Way International

https://eternallyblessed.org/archive/lessons-in-living-organic-gardening-hearne-3891

In this teaching he said that the devil is behind seedless grapes. 

Rosalie is out. The Board members are updated on the website. I'll update with more details as I hear them. 

https://www.theway.org/

BOARD OF DIRECTORS

19 hours ago, Rocky said:

My educational background is in accounting.

There's a LOT that the 2019 Oikeos financial statement does NOT disclose. If you'd like me to expound, you are welcome to ask.

I found it interesting/terrifying that one of the entries was listed as "Orlando Lockbox" and also that there are no details about what was done with the revenue. Feel free to share any more shennanigans that you've found. 

15 hours ago, WordWolf said:

1) I think glossing over their complicity to the Martindale purges and rfr's draconian policies that are only reined in when a lawyer insists they must be  is the wrong approach. (If your "Christian" group exploits its workers and only stops when lawyers and law enforcement say they have to stop-  as with twi-  then your group is not as "Christian" as it claims to be.)   They were perfectly comfortable with that for DECADES.   That's not some piddling little detail. It says a lot about what they value more.

2)  Nobody said it was "ALL about money."  Some is about money- thus the timing when retirement is looming.  Some is about POWER- now they can make the decisions.  Some of it is about AUTHORITY-  now other people hang on what THEY say.  Some of it is about prestige and privilege-  they have titles with cachet now, and possibly some of the chief seats.    But dismissing all of that because itá not "ALL about money" is a convenient way to blow off a position you don't like.   (Make up a caricature of that position, knock it down, then pretend that was the actual position, and you can dismiss the original position casually.)   I don't think you MEANT to do that, but it looks like you were definitely in that neighborhood.

3) Last I heard, there was a "donate" button on R&R's Facebook page, which you can't see unless logged in.  So, casual inspection may not make it obvious.   BTW, just because they ALSO have normal jobs doesn't mean much.  Having a standard source of income, among other things, makes it easier to hide "slush fund" expenditures.  It also keeps the lights on at home.

1) I know people who still can make the mental gymnastics of justifying these things. I don't feel like I am in a position to judge their hearts' intents even though I know that their logic is off. Some I believe have honest intentions, but only the Lord really knows. Honestly, I think this is the most destructive thing about TWI: people can do horrible and destructive things and still genuinely believe that they are in the right.  

BTW can you point me to a thread that has more details about this worker exploitation story, I've only heard it referenced in passing.

2) Thanks for clarifying your position on the role of money, I stand corrected. 

Although you might be right, I wouldn't make too much of their age as most people in TWI are also bordering on retirement. 

12 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again-

I'M GLAD I GOT IN, AND I'M GLAD I GOT OUT.

 

 

That having been said, the R&R people aren't the worst of the splinters, but they're hardly trustworthy, either.  This is the group of people who planned to jump ship rather deliberately.  Months before the meeting where they claimed it was about PRIMARILY trying to get twi to change, they registered "revivalandrestoration.com"  as a URL.  They also scouted around the top brass that weren't directly in charge, and tested the waters, asking who was interested in leaving and making a new organization.   Months after THAT came the meeting where they claimed to want to reform twi and that's it.  Monhs after THAT came the notice that rfr and the others weren't going to budge, so now we had to consider our options.   At least a month after THAT was the announcement that they were going to start up R&R. 

So, don't think you were dealt with entirely honestly.  Their pfficial story was that they did their best to get twi to change.  Only after that failed did they consider splitting off and starting a new group.  The opposite was true- they set things up to start a new group, then went to twi and failed to get change to happen. 

These are the same leaders who were fine with things for decades.  As they approached retirement, they reconsidered their options, and now they're running their own show.  Things were fine until it was convenient for them to leave, then SUDDENLY things needed to be addressed. 

 

https://oikeos.org/about/financial-reports/

To be fair, they had been trying to bring many of the issues before leadership for years before they decided to split away and the prospects for successful negotiations were slim. I know that a number of the R&R leaders are complicit in the Martindale era purges and that also brings up important questions, but I don't buy the line that this is all about money. I don't believe that R&R takes donations and at least some of its leaders have normal jobs like everyone else. Okieos is more suspicious, but at least they have taken the step of making their finances public, which is something TWI would never do. 

Hey Ghosted, 

Check your PMs, I sent you something

On 5/22/2020 at 8:07 AM, St. Christopher said:

Can you give some evidence as to why splinter groups are worse? I see none at all.

I think its importaint to note that not all splinter groups are the same. I don't have a lot of experiance with splinter groups, but I know some people in newer groups like Revival and Restoration and Oikeios well enough to say that they are genuinely doing what they believe is the best way for them to serve God, but this is not to say that is the case with all people in splinter groups. The most gruesome example of how splinter groups can go awry is the story of Victor Barnard's River Road Fellowship. There are a number of threads about it here if you would like to learn more. To be clear, I am not saying that any other splinter group is like the River Road Fellowship, but it serves as a warning of what can go wrong. If your leadership is open and transparent I wouldn't fear much from them, but if they are not, be careful.

Also I'm also happy to see that you are thankful for your experiances. It is too easy for us here to become crass and unthankful about our experiances in the Way and forget all the good that we experianced there. 

3 hours ago, Twinky said:

In the UK, I'd expect that an organisation of this kind would have to distribute its assets to another organisation with similar aims (say, CFFM?  Yeah, right, that'll happen, LOL).  I simply cannot see that happening.

 

Rosalie will have a successor, I don't know if there will be more leadership struggles like there was with the previous successions. The fact is that many Wayers still believe that they are in God's chosen organization and they will continue to believe in the Way's ideology with or without Rosalie.

Even Heaven's Gate, of mass suicide fame, still has surviving members that believe their group's ideology.

http://www.heavensgate.com/

Thanks to the internet, many cults can be exposed and lose chances for recruitment and even have members (like me) be convinced that they are not the truth, but cults are persistent. I pray to God that the suffering that this cult has caused comes to an end, but I don't see it being dissolved as a serious possibility.  

7 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

How old is RR?  When she dies, who will lead TWI?

I don't know how old RR is. I would assume the President would take over after her. I'm not sure how smoothly the succession would go, it's possible that she is really training Vern and teaching him the ropes, but she does have a tendency to keep things to herself. 

6 hours ago, Twinky said:

 

Hopefully, it will disintegrate entirely.  But what will happen to the assets?  Are its assets held by a corporation, limited liability company, partnership, trust, or what? 

I also hope that it disintegrates, but I don't think that's likely. As we have seen with splinters many people leave the Way physically, but not mentally. As for assets, I have no clue who technically owns them. I would think that there has been a decent amount of depreciation as most of their most biggest assets were purchased during the Wierwille and Martindale eras and "stewardship" can only take you so far. 

On 3/13/2013 at 8:30 PM, OldSkool said:

Rosalie has been working on separating director responsibilities from officer responsibilities. Really, Wierwille was a$$ backwards for amassing all the responsibility in three positions. Up until Rosalie, director(formerly trustee) and officer responsibility were all handled by Prez. VP. and Sec/Treas. Rosalie explained her intentions to separate the roles several years ago at a cabinet meeting, where she had the region coordinators dialed in. She announced that she would do it a lot sooner than she has, so who knows why she has been going so slow.

What she told us was that the officers (Prez, VP, Sec/Treas) would handle the day to day business side of running TWI. The prez. would also have a seat on the BOD and remain a dual role. The board of dummies, on the other hand, would set the heart and direction TWI would take, but let the officers run it. Personally, I think she was getting too old to handle it all herself, though I doubt she has delegated any real authority with the titles.

When I was on the cabinet, the VPs and Sec/Treas were figure heads. They had a lot of responsibility, but no real authority w/o checking with Rosalie first.

Rosie, Rupp, and De Lisle are all on the BOD. Rosalie is both Prez and Chairman of the Board. Chairman Rosie. :rolleyes:/>

Mel Privette is Secretary Treasurer, and Tom Mullins is Vice President.

It's all insignificant. Rosalie still calls the shots, with Donna Martindale as her closet adviser. :knuddel:/>

Rosie knows nothing of how to delegate and manage effectively. She is the most inefficient, micro-manager I have seen.

The Vice President is generally the position of someone who does administrative work , its generally rotated from person to person, I don't know how much it has to do with personal disputes with the mighty Fox, but a least it seems that she's at least trying to keep the vice presidents in their place.

Recently Privitte was replaced with Lippold as VP and Brian M1ttl3r was ordained and is serving as the archbishop of Georgia. I also think one of the Lombardis was appointed to SecTres. 

I seriously don't know what the president does other than be a figurehead, but the VPs seems to be the mighty Fox's errand boy. It doesn't seem like a fun job, its a lot of work.