Grace and Mercy

Hi WordWolf,

I have thought more about that letter and that time and what you guys have said in response to my post, thanks. .  I myself was pretty much sheltered from the fallout , but it must have been horrible for everybody in the way corps. Easy for me to look back from 35 years distance and think about what if, maybe, and (my personal favorite) shoulda coulda woulda. 

But  today, I am so grateful that was then and this is now. 

Hey STL,  Thanks and glad you're out, too.

On 2/25/2021 at 12:35 PM, T-Bone said:

Hi Twinky,

is part of your concern ex-Wafers or other sites do not give proper credit to the source of their list? I can understand that…but as far as variations on the list I think there’s a lot of leeway because how one understands the Bible depends on how one interprets it. That goes for doctrine too – more on that in a little bit.

As an example of another variation of listing Jesus represented in each book of the Bible – I have a book by  Henrietta Mears     (the book jacket states Mears trained, influenced or inspired thousands of young men and women to serve in Christian ministry including Billy Graham and Campus Crusade for Christ founders Bill and Vonette Bright) it’s titled   What the Bible is All About       …It’s an easy read and occasionally I read it with my daughter…anyway – I thought you might like a comparison of a few titles of Oral Roberts’ list to Henrietta Mears’ “list” – which are really the chapter heading for her giving a brief explanation of each book in the Bible…and this is just a brief random sampling:

The book of Genesis:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the seed of the woman

Henrietta Mears: Genesis portrays Jesus Christ, Our Creator God

 

The book of Exodus:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the Passover Lamb

Henrietta Mears:  Exodus portrays Jesus Christ, Our Passover Lamb

 

The book of Numbers:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night

Henrietta Mears: Numbers portrays Jesus Christ, Our “Lifted-up One”

 

The book of Psalms:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is our Shepherd

Henrietta Mears: Psalms portrays Jesus Christ as our All in All

 

The book of Ezekiel:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the wonderful four-faced man

Henrietta Mears: Jesus Christ is portrayed as the Son of Man

 

The Book of Daniel:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the fourth man in the fiery furnace

Henrietta Mears: Daniel portrays Jesus Christ, the Smiting Stone

 

The book of Matthew:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the Messiah

Henrietta Mears: Matthew portrays Jesus Christ as the Promised Messiah

 

The book of Acts:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the Holy Ghost

Henrietta Mears: Jesus Christ is portrayed as the Living Lord

 

The book of Hebrews:

Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant

Henrietta Mears: Jesus Christ is portrayed as Our Intercessor at the Throne

 

As you can see there are some JC portrayals where Roberts and Mears are similar and some where they differ – and by the way, to give Roberts some more credit – if you looked at the link I gave in a previous post – he adds a lot of other portrayals found in Scripture after he completes the by-each-book-of-the-Bible list… And actually I don’t have a problem with either interpretation.  The thing I like about Mears’ book is that she devoted several pages of a chapter with scriptural references for each book of the Bible and how each book specifically portrays Jesus Christ.

== == == == ==

As I mentioned earlier, I wanted to mention something about doctrine as it relates to the interpretation of Scripture. Over the years since I left TWI I’ve accumulated several systematic theologies – I think I’m up to 11 now – and I made it a point to select authors from various viewpoints – Evangelicals  and subsets like Fundamentalism, Charismatic, Modernism, Liberal, etc. I value different perspectives and find things of merit in all.

One of my favorite authors on theological stuff is  Alister McGrath      . On pages 28 and 29 of his book   Understanding Doctrine     McGrath states the following:

“A helpful way of thinking of the relation of doctrine to Scripture, probably suggested by a growing Victorian public interest in botanical gardens, was put forward by the nineteenth-century Scottish writer Thomas Guthrie. Guthrie argued that Scripture is like nature, in which flowers and plants grow freely in their natural habitat, unordered by human hands. The human desire for orderliness leads to these plants being collected and arranged in botanical gardens according to their species, in order that they can be individually studied in more detail. The same plants are found in different contexts – one of which is natural, the other of which is the result of human ordering. Doctrine represents the human attempt to order the ideas of Scripture, arranging them in a logical manner in order that their mutual relation can be better understood.”

End of excerpt

== == ==

I think I’ve referred to this McGrath quote a couple of times before on Grease Spot, because it excites me as a student of the Bible to be aware of there being more than one interpretation of Scripture and to appreciate the viewpoints of others.

 

I love Guthrie’s quote! My own journey post-twi took me to the Episcopal church. One of its primary draws for me was that they do not have an official doctrine (dogma) which is very restful after the years of “The Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God” , et cetera. Among my bedrock beliefs  is that no one, ever, in the history of humankind has had the last word or a complete  understanding of the mind of God.  God is God and we are not, so nobody gets to decide for everyone else what is “truth.”

9 hours ago, outandabout said:

I remember that Advanced class at San Diego State.  I was a local and had to help with the physical set-up.  I was in charge of furnishing the prayer room and we transported our own couch from our home to put in it and then was told it wasn't acceptable and had to haul it back out.  I also remember how the dorm rooms were furnished for the Big Wigs to look like apartments.  The rest of us stayed in the dorm rooms that were furnished like dorm rooms .  i guess it was just beneath our superiors to lower themselves to spend a few days in a regularly furnished dorm room.  It was then that I saw the inequalities between upper leadership and us regular peon believers.  Some people in way homes were moved out to forfeit their room to people who were more important then them.  Where they went was their problem.  An of course the recipients of these benefits had no gratitude, just a sense of entitlement.  Took me 9 more years until I finally left. 

Hi outandabout, too bad we didn’t know each other- you could have laughed with us making fun of The Entitled Ones. It was not mean-spirited, but it was very funny.  

9 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Thanks, T Bone.  Yep 

Thanks, Twinky

13 hours ago, Twinky said:

...It wouldn't have made any difference to them; all it would have done is hastened your exit.    You'd've invited more "reproof" and ultimately likely would have been marked and avoided...

thanks, Twinky! Enjoyed the coffee. 
I was out before “Mark and Avoid” was happening. Brings to mind the 1692 Salem, Massachusetts Witch Trials. 

I recently rediscovered this site and have spent hours and hours reading your posts and your stories. Despite how many years have gone by since you wrote them and since I have been out of twi, I have been moved to tears, outrage, gratitude and sometimes laughter. Although we may not know each other personally, I feel a profound connection with you from our shared experience in twi. Thank you so much for keeping this site going all this time.

My brief history with twi: started attending twig in 1973 Fairfax, CA and first took PFAL at a live class (!) at Shaver Lake, CA that summer. I was 17. Took the Intermediate class, went Word Over CA, then Fellow Laborers, College WOW 75-76, 2 years "free" WOW ( NJ 76-77 and MA 77-78.) Was accepted to the 10th Corps, but did not enter. Returned to CA (San Gabriel Valley), took the Advanced class, married another WOW vet, coordinated a twig for several years, had 2 kids, finally had enough of increasing legalism, hard-heartedness, and arrogance from "leadership" and we ended our ties to twi around 1990. As was the case with so many of us, I had stayed in partly from fear of being "possessed" if we "tripped out."  I did battle depression for quite a while after we left because we had lost our friends and social network and I didn't want to be "unequally yoked" with "unbelievers" or find a church, since I still believed churches were "whited sepulchres. "  Sigh. 

I offer huge thanks  to you all who have posted actual letters and documents from back in the day, particularly the infamous Passing of the Patriarch letter. All I knew about Chris Geer besides that he was at Gartmore then was that Something Big had happened which most of the rank and file were not privy to. I heard snippets of gossip ( "We're not supposed to talk about this, but I heard...") and observed jockeying for position amongst The Bigs, but had no real information.  Some time after this, The Way Bookstore published one of their little booklets entitled "The Passing of the Patriarch" which I now know was so heavily redacted it bears no resemblance to his actual letter. The letter I read for the first time a couple months ago, 33 years after it was written.  I briefly wondered if releasing that letter to the entire "ministry" at that time might have ushered in what some would call a cleansing revival.  Yeah, probably not. "Godly sorrow leading to repentance" was not in our corporate repertoire. Not that the whiny, self-serving drivel I read in that letter would have inspired everyone to get it together.

Earlier today I was telling my older son (who will be 36 next month) about some of the things I read in the GSC and got choked up and teary. Because my twi days were so long ago, I was surprised by this, but then I remembered how much of my heart and soul, time, effort, and money I gave to twi for so many years. I now sometimes wonder if there is a God, yet here I was crying that God's people had been so ill used and hurt by people who claimed to be men of God. 

The last time I took the Advanced class was in the summer of 1984 on the campus of San Diego State University. We stayed in dorm rooms. My roomie and I would make jokes about about certain Way Corps people such as "So and So must have forgotten their AC "retemory" that 'he who shall be greatest among you shall be servant of all'"and similar mockery.  Mind you, I believed that many WC were genuinely trying to walk with God and serve the Body of Christ, but there were many more who behaved as though they walked on water and we worker bees should be grateful to breathe the same air and receive their wisdom.  Our joking was a way to cope with their attitude. I have regretted not lovingly confronting b.s. when I saw it rather than putting up with it, but I don ' t know that even if most of the "believers"  had done so, it would have made much difference. The house that was twi was built on sand and the storm causing its collapse was beginning in fury. That the organization still exists is a wonder to me.

So again, thank you so much and heart hugs to you all.