Cynic

Response

So, have you posted anyone's email to you yet? May I ask, what prompted that little footnote of yours? :blink:

The spat about a poster posting another poster’s PM that’s going on in the “Letter from John Lynn” thread is the proximate reason for my notice. No one, however, has PM’d me recently, unleashed a tirade in a PM to me, or written something juicy that is worth publicly posting.

Response

Chas,

My point needs further development, but it is not that someone who has been truly regenerated, effectually called by God, and given the gift of faith can ultimately fall away into eternal perdition. It concerns one's assurance about having received regeneration, faith, repentance justification and everlasting life. Those who have been truly regenerated and effectually called by God will persevere, due to God's grace and working in them, unto the end. Their ultimate perseverance, however, does not mean they cannot for a time fall into serious sins.

Sinners become justified by the instrumentality of faith alone, not faith plus progression in sanctification. Those who have been justified by faith, however, will progress in sanctification.

Part 1a – Assurance and Ex-Wayfers

Among the snake oils PFAL devotees seemed eager to take and apply from Wierwille’s teachings was a sense of assurance about their salvation that was not adequately biblically informed. Several years ago at a high school reunion, I was in a rather casual conversation with a former LC whom I had gotten involved with TWI, when I decided to mention an atheistic ex-Wayfer who posted at WayDale and who now posts at this forum. The former LC and the ex-Wayfer reside in the same state (it is not Texas), and I was curious how the LC might theologically process the ex-Wayer’s turn to atheism. Informed that the fellow had become a professing atheist and was somewhat vocal in his rejection of Christian theism, the former LC maintained the fellow was “born again.” He based his confidence about the fellow’s regeneration and salvation on having heard the fellow “speak in tongues” during an Intermediate Class. Upon hearing the LC asserting this, I smirked and began wagging my head in indication that the fellow was not regenerate. The former LC took obvious affront to my head wagging, responding with some affirmative head nodding of his own.

There is no scriptural indication that one will be saved from the wrath of God because one speaks in or has spoken in tongues – even if the speaking in tongues is deemed genuine rather than contrived. Peter speaks of making one’s calling and election sure, through what might be characterized as sanctification, growth and spiritual maturity (2 Peter 1:10). Neither Peter nor any other biblical writer mentions spiritual operations as having value towards assurance about one’s calling and election. In terms of time and effort, Peter’s exhortation concerning making sure of one's calling and election would seem to involve something more enduring than having at some time demonstrated (or having seemed to demonstrate) spiritual operations. More devastating to the notion that speaking in tongues is a sign that one has been called and elected to ultimate salvation are the words of the Lord Jesus himself (Matthew 7:21-23), who declared there will be some barred entry into the eschatological kingdom, despite having -- or at least seeming to think they have -- prophesied, cast out demons and performed mighty works in the Lord’s name. It seems interpretively far fetched to give speaking in tongues a special status with respect to being an infallible sign of one's regeneration and salvation that prophesy, casting out of demons, and miracles do not attain.

You are all off the mark, and all of you should be ashamed that I have to write this, but God says we are to speak a Word fitly spoken so here it is: Thus saith the Lord:

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels....

Justpassingthrough,

You prefaced your quoting of the 1 Corinthians passage by writing, “Thus saith the Lord.” Immediately before that you wrote, “God says we are to speak a Word fitly spoken so here it is.”

It is clear your post involves a claim that you are issuing a fitly-spoken message related to the goings on at this forum concerning STFI. All Scripture is spirated (breathed out) by God, but quoting Scripture does not in itself give your application of Scripture, your opinions and insights about situations, or your judgments and demands scriptural authority. Just about everyone around here should be aware of biblical indications of unbelievers and even the devil quoting and/or citing Scripture.

I am wondering, due to the manner in which you delivered your demands, if you deem yourself:

1. a prophet/prophetess;

2. a bearer of a prophetic message.

So you will have some idea of where I’m coming from: I’m Trinitarian, Calvinistic, quasi-presuppositional, middle-aged, skeptical about Pentecostal/Charismatic ministries, and pretty well past the point where it’s likely I’ll be intimidated by someone authoritatively posturing themselves as a “prophet” or an “apostle.”

IMO, Elizabeth and “Captain Crunch” have probably done to CES/STFI’s religious reproductive abilities what Paul Allen did to TWI’s.

False prophesies and false God-told-me-so predictions are not limited to TWI, CES/STFI and JAL's religious dominatrices:

1. I recall Evander Holyfield believingly talking about a fellow prophesying that he (Holyfield) was going to defeat Lennox Lewis.

2. I think Pat Robertson has three days remaining for a multitude of hurricanes to descend on and decimate portions of the United States –- else Pat will be known for an additional incident of falsely predicting a future event.

IMO, Elizabeth's counterattack has been played out capably. I’d advise against picking or otherwise winding up in a catfight with Ms. Snow White.

Fourth, take an honest look at what we teach from the Word about whatever subjects are pertinent to this matter, like prophecy. Prophecy is prophecy, and to criticize “personal prophecy” as unbiblical, in and of itself, is contrary to Scripture. We have a book on Prophecy that deals with this subject in depth from the Word, which you can get from www.stfonline.org.

JAL doesn't mention that the authenticity-problem afflicting the “prophetic” practices in which CES/STFI practitioners have apparently widely been involved is a qualifier for death-by-stoning under the Mosaic covenant's judicial terms (see "Disclaimer").

A sect given to prophalying (falsely prophesying) isn't going to cure its ills merely by rejecting flagrantly self-serving and/or nasty portions of its adherents' prophalying, and doing a group hug.

Disclaimer: Don’t worry. I’m an armchair apologete -- not a theonomist.

Mark C. Bowles (“Cynic”)

Concerning problems with Luther's Christology, the following is from http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/christol.htm :

But Luther taught that the doctrine of the "communication of attributes" (communicatio idiomatum) meant that there was a mutual transference of qualities or attributes between the divine and human natures in Christ, and developed this to mean a mutual interpenetration of divine and human qualities or properties, verging on the very commingling of natures which Chalcedonian Christology had avoided...

Calvin also approved of the orthodox Christological statements of the church councils. He taught that when the Word became incarnate he did not suspend nor alter his normal function of upholding the universe. He found the extreme statements of Lutheran Christology guilty of a tendency toward the heresy of Eutyches, and insisted that the two natures in Christ are distinct though never separate...

There is here a divergence between the Lutheran and Reformed teaching. The Lutherans laid the stress upon a union of two natures in a communion in which the human nature is assumed into the divine nature. The Reformed theologians refused to think of an assumption of the human nature into the divine, but rather of an assumption of the human nature into the divine person of the Son, in whom there was a direct union between the two natures.

Luther's alleged (I haven't read enough of Luther to offer an independently informed synopsis) and apparently quite serious Christological problems involved departure from what was aptly and formally recognized at Chalcedon (451 AD) -- not a departure from recogition of the Deity of Christ and the Trinity per se.

Recommended Reading: The Definition of Chalcedon

George,

I don’t know what to say, except I’m very sorry. I like you, and have enjoyed your clear-headed posts.

What a soap opera!

(Duplicate post to replace one that disappeared)

Linda,

I think it's actually one of my posts that now makes no sense. The mods around here can be a squirrelly bunch.

Let's forget about it, though, and continue on with the topic at hand: I think it was Colonel Mustard in a Plymouth Road Runner, somewhere around Pittsburgh. I don't remember the year.

Motherof2,

What is your denominational affiliation?

has anyone gotten involved in mainstream christianity after the way?

Motherof2,

There seem to be very few ex-Wayfers who have forsaken the errant Christological doctrines taught in TWI, and embraced the eternal existence/deity of Christ and a Trinitarian view of God.

There are a number of ex-TWI folks around here who sit on Sunday mornings in traditional churches, but I suspect they are largely still Wierwille-esque in their Christological and theological views.

Two somewhat loudmouthed exceptions (there are/have been some others) are Mark O’Malley and I. O’Malley is a Roman Catholic. I am Calvinistic and a member of an OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church) church.

A soundly Trinitarian, though not-often-posting member of this forum is D. A. Reed (never involved with TWI), who is a Christian academic with a pastoral (Wesleyan, I think) background.

Welcome, and beware.

It appears to me that Darwinism depends more on a philosophical viewpoint than scientific evidence.

Bingo! The methodology by which evolutionists come by their claims is not philosophically (or theologically) neutral.

Well, bully for you, likeaneagle.

I went, I saw, I bought nothing -- though I was out before 5:30 AM.

There were more than 50 people in line outside Staples; seas of automobiles near Wal-Mart, Circuit City, and Dick’s Sporting Goods; a line (maybe lines) outside Radio Shack and/or the adjacent Office Max; a store full of briskly moving women (except for the dozen or so waiting at each register) at Goody’s; a line at Kohl’s that stretched from the front registers to the last side aisle, then westward nearly to the end of the store.

Phooey!

I do most of my Christmas shopping over the internet. It’s easier, quicker and a lot less nerve-wracking than my former practice of doing most of it two days before Christmas. I don’t like even driving near the local mass of shopping centers on Black Friday. After checking out www.blackfridayads.com and getting an e-mail flyer from Staples’, however, I’m considering a possible run at it, though I want nothing to do with the crush at and around Wal-Mart.

Pat and I tangled intensely a few times, but I am very sorry to hear this.

Linda Z.,

What was your infraction?

Never heard of him. Was Jeffy Poo some big weenie TWI leader accustomed to doing confrontations?

I spend incomparably more time thinking about things Trinitarian and Calvinistic than I do about TWI, but have occasionally wondered if LCM, on the way down and out from his position as TWI's autocrat, orchestrated a succeeding power structure in which TWI would have no single dominant male MOG figure.

I don't agree with either of your beliefs, but templelady has shown courage and grace, both of which are only enhanced by the contrast to Allan's cowardice and indecorum.

LG,

Allen W. certainly seems somewhat short on decorum. On what basis, however, do you accuse him of cowardice?

"I became self-aware; I am alive."

Romantic restlessness and wanderlust I understand, but living in a tiny compartment and getting to know the bacteria of various public showers doesn't have any appeal for me.

Linda,

A belated Happy Birthday, by the way.

[snide remard about "pair juice" deleted by Cynic, after realizing Raf was partly quoting What The Hey.]