CM

pffft

goey knows the all truth or how to get to it...yeah right...

with methodology and "wisdom" of this world

alan trys to stick it up my butt every chance he gets

sorry allan i ain't dropping my pants for you

and btw, when your dog rides up front on your bike

i hope for the dog's sake your fly is up

------------------

sirg, i'll never forget

trying to turn it, and i will breathing and letting

but not here-1500 cm's-done

sirguessalot,

i apologize for possibly ruining this thread

as we know everyone would be able to speak

but not me on this one if it ever happens

i won't be there,

i'm too po'ed at the non enforcement

of the harrassment rules at this place

love, your friend

hi goey,

well....let me put it this way

whether anyone believes it or not they should be allowed to speak

and not have to prove every phrase and nuance to what they say

and be challenged at every turn instead of people shutting up and listening

nor does anyone else have to believe it

and noone is required to believe anyone

that's about it, those links help

if you have ever experienced this it is quite enlightening

that's all i got to say about it, whether anyone asks me again or not at this point

and today i don't believe in the shift key....lol....lol

peace

To all interested, maybe these would help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialog

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...rfaith+Dialogue

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls...log&btnG=Search

What does "discredit what someone says" mean?

So, If I state that I believe that Adam and Eve were Rhesus monkeys and that the garden of Eden was in southern Idaho, does this mean that no one is allowed to discredit my statement and belief by preventing facts or evidence that Rhesus monkeys are indiginous to INdia/Asia and there is no archeological evidence of them ever living in Idaho?

If the rules for discsussion dissallow disagreement by supressing facts or evidence that may discredit a proposed view or alleged truth, it is not likely that such discussions will lead to any kind of deeper understanding.

Hi Goey,

I mean to take what someone says, and the sole purpose of what someone else says is to discredit what the first person says. Rather then presenting what you believe that would be different then the other. Allowing a person the room to present their beliefs and pov's without a specific attack against it. See the difference that I'm trying to convey? Both ways would accomplish what you want though the first would be stifling another.

Not sure if that says it well and I'm not upset or anything.

Just to be able to voice our beliefs without fear ya know.

In the spirit of peace rather then a battle of ideas against ideas, we could look to see what is common more then what is different. And even the different could bring deeper understanding to all involved.

Peace

this is what we would try to be avoided jj

there is no believe or else anything.......

religions teach this-we have had it with that,

don't'cha think????

JJ

There are spiritual consequences noted in the bible, some dire, for not believing/acting correctly

Then, filter in the ego and self-esteem of the believers themselve

Care to clarify that also??????

Good article Goey.

There would have to be no attempts to discredit

what someone else says in any way.

Or even for another to take what someone says

and key off of it to oppose rather then agree.

It takes a degree of determination to see what we agree on.

And to perhaps extend our minds into the unknown.

Meaning not to be too quick to decide what was said is valid.

It may have to be done outside of greasespot. Unfortunately.

There are many here that would be interested i think.

But do not want to be attacked as we have seen.

http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_1052702/mpage_1/tm.htm

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...Return%3A+Dogma

lol...as if.....

....................................

what if Acts 2 really happened?

sheesh tired of that same thread up there

you have a great heart Roy

Didn't mean to stop your conversation Todd and Sunesis.....

Please carry on.

Don't mind me I just blew off some steam,

and was encouraged to stay here with this from more then 1 person.

heerz my take...

the subject leading up to the verse seems like general reminders of a lot of different things were taught in person...the bulk of which were most likely delivered live, via oral tradition

seems like a lot about personal responsibility, discipline, love and not to stick your nose in other people's personal spiritual business

which to me, says a lot about that the high value placed on interior awareness that was such a hallmark of early christian discipline...and a shift from earlier religious forms (of conquering the infidels and human slavery and whatnot...all of which are exterior egoic grasping)

4:1-10

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

and then the verse before the one in question...

4:12

That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

its when our highest priority is inward, that we can walk honestly to those who are only outward

i think it's interesting how the word "without" means "outside" or "outward"

which to me, speaks to those who are somehow not aware or numb to their own inward condition

which is to say "full of darkness," or to simply be unaware of one's own deeper motives

due to the fixation on a solely exterior search for Christ and God and happiness and such

(which includes any and every book)

then...

4:13

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

if we go with asleep being somehow "spiritually unconscious" or "dead/numb to the inward man"

and that the "new birth" and "coming of the lord" are other ways of saying "to wake from the dead"...

...the rest of the chapter and the book seems to be telling them to be patient and loving towards those who are "asleep," because eventually everyone is going to "wake up" some way or another on their own time, in their own season, in their own God-given cycle

its not our calling to be more concerned with making others "wake from the dead"

than we are with our own spiritual birthing process

our new calling in Christ is first and forement to go within ourselves and find the door that has always already been wide open

and this would be comforting advice to those who live in a world where unconscious behaviour and lack of self-awareness dominates and manifests into a violent and crazy world

4:14-18

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

is it possible that these passages have more to do with the arrival and awakening of Christ within

than salvation from without?

it is not hard to also read it as if it is speaking of immediate future possibility for any individual

...rather than some remote future event for everyone at once

5:1-3

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

again...see the parallel between birth and spiritual awakening from the dead?

not everyone asks to be awakened to the inward man,

sometimes events in life comes out of nowhere and wake you up against your will

5:4-10

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

we are not appointed to be wrathful towards those who are asleep

we need to look within first, clean our own cups on the inside, etc...

...

now...if it seems far from what twi and most of modern christianity teaches

that's because it is

they are so radically divergent...that there is no easy bridge between the two theologies

one is mostly exterior based, trying to find something outside to get inside of us

and the other is not. it works on gestating and working out that which has already always been there

(from the beginning, as even scriptures seem to say so often)

i would hope that those who have a negative or angry or fearful reaction to this very different opinion

and think i am somehow deluded

would simply heed the scriptures in question

and please walk honestly and kindly toward me

if i am wrong, i will wake up in my own due time

what i am saying is...i am open to be questioned about my opinion

but in an honest and direct and logical and reasonable way

in the spirit of peace

yada yada yada

That would put me back in....but should some want something else there is plenty of room for more threads.

And I find it interesting that Bullinger actual had some clear thinking although influenced by the Church of England. Clear verses are not what the subject of this thread is dealing with. I listed many verses about this subject from the start. Everyone of them have contexts to them as well and more to understand. Some verses seem clear to some more then others. And is there any limit to what we can gain from learning more about them? They are not set as to have one interpretation only but for the individual who seeks God as Sunesis put it so well.

I also find that Wierwille strayed far away from Bullinger as he writes on how we are to deal with scriptures that we do not understand. Mainly listening to other believers. If the question is who is a believer then one should also listen still. And not jump the gun, so to speak. And we are to wait for more light on the matter, as is being done.

I will always try harder to handle those who only want to contradict and not let a person's thoughts be considered. Timothy is quite clear. As well as Thessolonians.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1 Timothy 6

3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

And if you think these are not wholesome words then you perhaps should listen a bit more. Before you act. Nothing is gained by out wording another, what is happening is many words are being used to convey ideas not to out do another person. And to claim to be some sort of winner.

And if anyone wants to argue with me, about something besides the subject of this thread, you can take it outside of this forum as the rules state. I'm not hard to find. And I also reserve the right to put anyone on ignore as you have that same right.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

remember, just pick the fruit!!

don't get lost!

"The true value of a human being can be found in the degree to which he has attained liberation from the self."

~ Albert Einstein

http://www.thelostbooks.com/

http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm

Revelation 21

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Note - John saw this..................................................

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Hi Bliss,

True it doesn't mean we can talk to the dead. Somewhere it says this place will be forgotten I think. I'd have to look it up, but I'm at work right now.

What she saw was what was shown her. Not according to actually what the parents would have been doing which is waiting and praying in a hospital. So perhaps for her comfort. Don't know.

And being in heaven having to watch us!!?? Yeah I wouldn't want that either...lol.

The only problem with what the little girl went through, is now she's sad for being back on earth, and I don't think God would do that.

But remember, she was told she would be back. And there would even be more for her. And that her parents needed her. And sad happens, shoot I'll be glad when I'm done here. Sadness and Joy happens to believers. Think of the Joy she has also, as well as her parents.

Some have gone as far as to take their own lives in order to see heaven. DON"T DO THAT!!!!! Please. Some have been tempted also. I thought I'd better say that because when things are happening and coming quickly a person can get confused.

Tears, feelings, emotions are spiritual I believe.

hahaha...good one Raf....I'll take that one!

Just to not leave me out of the slamming business.

Here's one for whoever wants it!

Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Carry on....lol....

lol...good points Oaks...

How a person gets slammed for actually believing God here at this site.

Yes I know it's not a religious site.

I've learned a lot from atheist websites.

Seen more then any commentary could provide.

Actually believe and see then say something about it.

That's funny. The reason for toungues I suppose.

I'd probably be in prison or killed if I lived in the first Century.

Here's a little thing I picked up recently that will be a blessing to some.

the story of Lauren Reiff by her mother, Daphyne

"Our pastor laid hands upon our baby Lauryn and we prayed for her life and for guidance for her surgeon.

With tears and a certain amount of fear we let them wheel her away to what turned out to be an 8 ½ hour surgery.

Lauryn was only a year old then and like many babies, she was born with a hole in her heart that was expected to closes within the first year.

But Lauryn had been different. . The hole in her heart didn't close, and unlike most babies, she spent her first two months in the Intensive Care Unit at Children's Hospital .

She had been born three months premature, weighing 2 lb. 10 oz. With a broken arm and underdeveloped lungs.

The operation seemed to go as planned, a few surprises here and there but nothing out of the ordinary.

We thanked God, thinking our prayers had been answered with the successful outcome, that is until 2 years later during a bedtime prayer, she told us something about her surgery we couldn't have known.

Our tradition for Lauryn was to begin bedtime with the prayer, " Now I lay me down to sleep..and if I die before I wake."

When we got to that point, Lauryn said to us, "do you remember when I died?" My husband and I looked at each other as chills ran down our spines, we both said, "No, we don't remember a time when you died!"

She said with a smile, "yes I did, during my heart surgery." Then continued to tell this amazing story.

I saw you and daddy playing that game you always play." (Lauryn's dad and I played backgammon to pass the time, and still play it today.)

We asked her where she was when she saw this. She said she was above us looking down and watching. Then she went immediately to Heaven.

Lauryn said, "I was in heaven and I saw Jesus standing there! I ran into his arms and he said 'Oh Lauryn, I have waited for you for so long!'"

She told how Jesus sat her down and gave her a hand full of jewels and a beautiful gown that sparkled.

They walked and talked for a while and Jesus let her sit on a cloud. And then he introduced her to her sister Lisa.

Lauryn had never been told that she had a sister in heaven! Nor did she know about receiving jewels for a crown.

"I saw angels! They were so beautiful," Lauryn said with a huge grin.

We asked if they had wings and if they looked like us? She said "yes, some of them did have wings and some did not, and no, they look nothing like us but they are so beautiful." (She had never been told that many angels don't have wings.)

Lauryn also mentioned that the colors in heaven are more beautiful and there are colors that are not in the rainbow!

We asked Lauryn if there were any toys in heaven, thinking that if she were making up a story, like most kids at this age, she would include the best toys in the world.

She thought for a moment and said, there weren't any toys, but there was beautiful music and that she and Jesus danced.

Then she got very sad and tears came into her eyes. She said that Jesus told her it was time to go, that she must return to her parents, who needed her!

She really started to cry, I told her it was okay. I knew what she was going to say and understood she didn't want to hurt our feelings.

She looked up into my eyes, tears shining on her cheeks and said, "I didn't want to leave Jesus and heaven!"

I hugged her and told her I wouldn't want to leave either.

Then she wiped her eyes and with her forehead wrinkled up she said, "Then He wanted to take my pretty jewels.

I didn't want to give them back!" Jesus assured her that He would take care of them and that there would even be more when she came back. So she let Jesus take the jewels for safekeeping.

In the weeks that followed anytime Lauryn would see a picture of Jesus she would walk up and say "that's not what He looks like."

People would be curious and once we asked her to draw a picture of Jesus, and as only a child could, Lauryn proceeded to draw the most beautiful, amazing stick figure of our Lord Jesus Christ!

As for Lauryn's sister in Heaven, I had an abortion when I was eighteen. I was encouraged to go through with it, being told that it was not alive.

But afterward for several years, until Lauryn told me about her sister, I had always felt sick about it, like I had destroyed my own child.

But hearing from Lauryn, that she had seen Lisa in heaven, that heaviness was lifted. And I praise God for His matchless wisdom, answering a prayer I had never voiced!

I never cease to be amazed by His Grace.

God said to His disciples, "You must come to me as a child, for such is the kingdom of God!" We could clearly see His Kingdom in the tears of our little princess

You are never to young or old to have God touch your life and start a story that will last into eternity.

penny

Allan's thinking I believe is exactly what 1 Thessolonians 4 is addressing in part.

That the dead and asleep and others which have no hope God will bring with him.

One can have no hope and be without God for a variety of reasons.

Not being taught correctly like so many that want to separate and divide.

How many religions and people claim this? that others will not have eternal life?

Mainly ignorance which is directly addressed by the Word of the Lord.

To those who have ears to hear and eyes to see it.

How's that? 15 friggin pages to make the point.

How's that for friggin Flawless?

and all anyone else will get from me on this thread

is this song that i'll post again, then i'm done with it!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzlspzYfN3s...elmo%27s%20fire