washingtonweather

Paw--I have to admit----I really dont care and that wasnt one of the options....But I appreciate your efforts...but since I just dont "go there" any more.....well.....

I do know this too---

although I have not seen the Passion movie---(bear with me--this is about the moon) my neighbor who lived in the Sudan for many years has...and her and her husband thought the scene where they focused on the full moon in the movie (probably to indicate the accuracy of the Passover) would have been very problematic for Muslims due to the fact they would see at as looking to "the spirit of the moon" at least in the Sudan---and it would have been more offensive had it been crescent....but then it would not have been Pasover......

mor'n'at 20 yr stuff

very cool!

TIME

Gosh-- Wayward--I have thrown all mine away...but I SOOOO remember either 12/95 or it was 1/96 MAJOR THREATS about ABS.

cuz as a TC we had to follow up with said threats

and wouldn't that be a hoot......inventory reduction sale.....like all members need 50 blue books a piece...HAHAHAHA

definately Radar----Can't wait until its "TWI vs GOD"

course the conferences i go to actually teach me something even though they are a little more money than the ways. Price certainly is no correlation for benefit. I cant beleive they still pass this off as some kind of RESEARCH....

Johnny,

I appreciate your thankfulness and can relate as I was in a similar desparate state prior to TWI, however I had already been speaking in toungues for a couple years.

The thing I wrestled with...like some others here...was could I help fix what I thought was God's extra special ministry for me....But I soon came to the unbderstanding, that God called me...before TWI...well, before the foundations of all this....and I would have been "involved" somewhere - whether it was TWI or something else, the more I thought about the God aspect, and less of TWI aspect, the clearer I saw it as so man made. And we all no the results of man-made verses God-made.

I think an other reason the idea of abuse and flaws are something some people deny is becasue they think that TWI was a GOD made ministry....not a man made one.

If trust is abused to leverage someone into a compromising situation which would otherwise be at least distasteful and exploitive and at most totally abusive; IT WILL NEVER BE OKAY.

In my not so humble, but strongly felt opinion, neither men should be excused.

And DONT EVEN get me started on the arrogance of correct spelling critics----

Just Dont---I will not play fare!@!!

HEY I just saw all the pics and the MOVIE---or should I say THE movie....WOW real people... now that school is on break I can check out these threads I missed.....ANd Parties I missed man---and Paw --you got a shave and a haircut since I saw you last!!

Maybe when we move back east...you'll still be having an annual weenie roast or sumpin' anyways---looked like a good time!

I That is foremost a question to be asked of TWI---since in my kids words..."They Started it..."

I dont think you handled a .... poor circumstance any better than any one else would have

Well, contrary to popular belief I DO NOT think forgiving and being happy go hand in hand.

I believe forgivness should be asked for. Not doled out because I just decide to do it.

BUT, I don't think that forgiveness = healing on the horizontal level....

You rape my daughter---if I forgive you --or if she forgives you , does that make it less painful???

I don't think it means I have to let it dominate my thinking with oceans of bitterness either.

But, I dont force myself to forgive people beacuse its oh so christian or Right or moral or whatever....

I do force myself to acknowledge the facts, and deal with them with as much logical prudence with regard as to the consequences as possible.

REGARDING TWI: I think its oversimplifying the case in many instances to just say--please forgive me or I forgive you...that was one of the most complicated dysfunctional parts of (my life anyhow) that we were part of.

edited to say:

I agree with Lindyhopper on this issue.

[This message was edited by washingtonweather on December 17, 2003 at 19:23.]

No Way----I understand that sut-down completely!!!---it took some time --like in years ---I think I am still recovering after 26 yrs in--or was it 27, any how--it is not easy to unsupress one's emtions--but I still believe that is part of that verse in Joel where is says, "The Lord will restore that which the locusts hath eaten..."chapter 2.

Not to derail:

my stupid story was about the stupid leader who after I called him to tell me my 6' WOW bro hit me...I was supposed to lock myself in a room and work things out!!!! sheesh---he was boingkin a new PFAL sign up girl up in his room---I told him to take it somewhere else but not in the house---he didn't like that---this was back in 81-82...Kansas---that year had a lot of stupid stories.

other religious images associated with the nativity

he shepherds as well as the Wise Men have occult powers and special links with the cosmos. The shepherds symbolize the humble; the Wise Men, power and riches.

The first representations of the Wise Men show oriental sages dressed in white pantaloons and Phrygian caps. Traditionally, the three Wise Men represent humanity, carry symbolic gifts and are followed by magnificent processions.

Gaspard is usually depicted in blue, holding a cup containing incense, and represents Africa; Balthazar, dressed in red and holding an urn full of gold, represents Asia; and Melchior, dressed in green, holds a casket of myrrh and represents Europe (or the black, Semitic and Aryan races).

Because of their emphasis on the miraculous, the other iconographic elements: the cave, the crèche, and the stable animals which appear in the apocryphal Gospels are not recognized in the Holy Scriptures.

the Nativity

The Nativity

The Nativity brings together Mary, Joseph, the Christ Child, the Shepherds, the Angels and, on Epiphany, the Wise Men. Representations of the birth of Christ proliferated from the IVth century, particularly in books like Psalters which were used during the liturgy.

There are two traditions of iconographic representation of the Nativity.

The Western tradition sees the conception and birth of Jesus as divine events: Mary is virginal and because she was not subject to the curse of the daughters of Eve, did not suffer during labour. This is why she is depicted seated, holding the Infant Jesus on her lap.

At the end of the XIVth century, under the influence of Italian artists, the Virgin is represented on her knees in a posture of adoration.

The Eastern tradition, on the other hand, emphasizes the reality of the incarnation of Jesus and his human birth: Mary, having just given birth, is pictured lying down.

"It is from Germany that we today get many of our customs, songs, images of Santa, pine trees and European hand blow glass ornaments.

How these traditions traveled to England is interesting. Queen Victoria often visited relatives in Germany in the town of Coburg and while there she fell in love with a young Prince Albert. After they got married they returned to England to raise their family.

The tree that Price Albert provided his family was admired by all in England. This tree was decorated in the finest of hand blown glass ornaments. Since everyone liked the Queen they copied her Christmas customs including the Christmas tree and ornaments.

A F.W. Woolworth brought the glass ornament tradition to the United States in 1890. From 1870's to 1930's, Germans made the finest molds for making ornaments with nearly 5,000 different molds at the time. At the turn of the century there were over one hundred small cottage glass blowing workshops in Europe. Today only two respected German factory teams are capable of producing ornaments to the precise specifications of the Christopher Radko collection.

During the hayday of turn of the century ornament making, almost all ornaments were made in Lauscha, a small town nested in the Thuringian mountains. After the war, however, glass ornament production declined. Many of the craftsmen left for West Germany. Quantity rather than quality, was the Communist management philosophy. Some old molds fell into disrepair and many others were left to collect dust or were lost.

In the 1960's it was fashionable to have an Aluminum tree and all the same shape and color ornaments. Many threw away the old ornaments from Germany.

It was in the 1980's that Christopher Radko brought back the old art of making the glass ornaments for all to enjoy."

okay--losts on the tree thing

CHRISTMAS TREE TRADITION HAS ANCIENT ORIGINS

King Tut never saw a Christmas tree, but he would have understood the tradition which traces back long before the first Christmas, says David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture with the Springfield Extension Center.

The Egyptians were part of a long line of cultures that treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrive, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death.

The Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness, and lamps to light one's journey through life.

Centuries ago in Great Britain, woods priests called Druids used evergreens during mysterious winter solstice rituals. The Druids used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life, and place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits.

Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early traditions.

Legend has it that Martin Luther began the tradition of decorating trees to celebrate Christmas. One crisp Christmas Eve, about the year 1500, he was walking through snow-covered woods and was struck by the beauty of a group of small evergreens. Their branches, dusted with snow, shimmered in the moonlight. When he got home, he set up a little fir tree indoors so he could share this story with his children. He decorated it with candles, which he lighted in honor of Christ's birth.

The Christmas tree tradition most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio, adds Robson.

But the custom spread slowly. The Puritans banned Christmas in New England. Even as late as 1851, a Cleveland minister nearly lost his job because he allowed a tree in his church. Schools in Boston stayed open on Christmas Day through 1870, and sometimes expelled students who stayed home.

The Christmas tree market was born in 1851 when Catskill farmer Mark Carr hauled two ox sleds of evergreens into New York City and sold them all. By 1900, one in five American families had a Christmas tree, and 20 years later, the custom was nearly universal.

Christmas tree farms sprang up during the depression. Nurserymen couldn't sell their evergreens for landscaping, so they cut them for Christmas trees. Cultivated trees were preferred because they have a more symmetrical shape then wild ones.

Six species account for about 90 percent of the nation's Christmas tree trade. Scotch pine ranks first, comprising about 40 percent of the market, followed by Douglas fir which accounts for about 35 percent. The other big sellers are noble fir, white pine, balsam fir and white spruce.

Premission was granted for Internet use by --- Written by: David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture; Springfield Extension Center

the question I ask myself in huge direction turns is (at least one of the things I or my husband and I consider)

Are we running from? or are we running towards?

Are we lookin' to just get, or is there any giving we can do?

Who else will it impact----once in TWI---you arent really supposed to get out again.....And having left once and after 4 years returning again for a time (aprox 7 yrs) I can tell you:

YOU WILL BE SUSPECTED (of less than 100% spirituality) AND UNDER SCRUTINY FOR UNDIVIDED LOYALTY.

I think before you go back, reading a book called "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" will promote careful thinking in this matter....not written about TWI specifically at all, but it will illustrate some objective ways to approach things when thinking through what healthy verses unhealthy christian environments are like.

Dot heres sumore---

got me interested now!

Wenceslaus

"Good King Wenceslaus" of Christmas carol fame wasn't really a king, but he was saintly and good. Perhaps born around 903 near Prague, in what is today the Czech Republic, young Wenceslaus was the product of a mixed marriage. His father Ratislav(the Duke of Bohemia) was a Christian, while his mother Drahomira came from a non-Christian Slavic tribe.

Wenceslaus was raised a Christian by his grandmother Ludmilla. The grandmother (also a saint) had been the wife of the first Christian duke of Bohemia.

When Wenceslaus' father died, his mother took over Bohemia, and civil war broke out between the Christian and non-Christian factions. Grandmother Ludmilla began urging Wenceslaus to take over; hearing of the sedition, Drahomira promptly had Ludmilla murdered.

The resultant power struggle ended in 922 with the teenage Wenceslaus in charge of Bohemia, attempting to bring together the warring factions.

As ruler, Wenceslaus attempted to reduce the oppression of the peasants by the nobility. Opposition to Wenceslaus among some factions of the nobility intensified after he acknowledged Emperor Henry I (the Fowler) of Germany as his overlord.

Wenceslaus' younger brother Boleslaus joined the opposition in 929, after Wenceslaus had a son, thereby removing Boleslaus from the chain of succession.

Boleslaus invited his brother Wenceslaus to a religious festival, and while Wenceslaus was on his way to mass on the morning of September 28, Boleslaus and a group of followers attacked him and stabbed him to death. Wenceslaus' last words were "May God forgive you, brother."

Immediately venerated as a martyr, Wenceslaus by the end of the century was celebrated as the nation's patron saint.

Wenceslaus Square is the center of modern-day Prague, and became in 1989 the site of mass popular demonstrations that helped topple the Communist dictatorship.

Although there is no historical record of the story recounted in the Christmas carol, it is consistent with Wenceslaus' concern for the poor. In the carol, Wenceslaus and a page leave their castle to bring food and pine longs to a peasant on the feast of Saint Stephen (Dec. 26).

As the wind grows more intense and the night grows darker, the page fears that he may collapse in the snow. Wenceslaus tells the page to follow his steps, which, miraculously, warm the page's freezing feet. Saint and page complete the trip to the peasant's home safely.

The youthful page's understandable fear of the bitter weather parallel's, in a sense, what must have been the real Wenceslaus' fears of attempting, as a teenager, to unite a nation divided by religious and dynastic civil war.

Wenceslaus and the page both attempted to pass through their respective storms by walking in the footsteps of righteousness. That path led the page out of the storm, and Wenceslaus into grave danger, and then to sainthood.

-Dave Kopel

Index

For more: Orthodox Family Magazine biography of Saints Ludmilla and Wenceslaus.

Electric Library Encyclopedia entry on Wenceslaus.

from The Catholic Encyclopedia:

St. Wenceslaus

(Also Vaclav, Vaceslav.)

Duke, martyr, and patron of Bohemia, born probably 903; died at Alt-Bunzlau, 28 September, 935.

His parents were Duke Wratislaw, a Christian, and Dragomir, a heathen. He received a good Christian education from his grandmother (St. Ludmilla) and at Budweis. After the death of Wratislaw, Dragomir, acting as regent, opposed Christianity, and Wenceslaus, being urged by the people, took the reins of government. He placed his duchy under the protection of Germany, introduced German priests, and favoured the Latin rite instead of the old Slavic, which had gone into disuse in many places for want of priests. Wenceslaus had taken the vow of virginity and was known for his virtues. The Emperor Otto I conferred on him the regal dignity and title. For religious and national motives, and at the instigation of Dragomir, Wenceslaus was murdered by his brother Boleslaw. The body, hacked to pieces, was buried at the place of murder, but three years later Boleslaw, having repented of his deed, ordered its translation to the Church of St. Vitus in Prague. The gathering of his relics is noted in the calendars on 27 June, their translation on 4 March; his feast is celebrated on 28 September.

SAINT NICHOLAUS... SANTA CLAUS

written by Sergio Caggìa with Paul Gwynne for © Nerone the Insider's Guide to Rome

The 6th December is the feast day of St. Nicholas. Regarded by historians as a purely legenday character, Nicholas is supposed to have lived in the fourth century AD. Born in Patara (Turky) from a welthy family Nicholas was made priest by his uncle the Archbishop of Myra. At the death of his parents Nicholas gaved all his havings to the poor and went to Palestine. Returning to Myra was made Bishop. According to legend the Archbishop of that seaport had just died and the local clergy had decided that the firs priest entering the chuech on the following morning would be made bishop. That was Nicholas who then became the Bishop of Myra.

Many are the stories around the figure of St. Nicholas, indeed made saint because of his generousity, modesty and miracles...

A famous story tells that visiting a certain inn Nicholas descovered that the innkeeper had the habit of stealing small children, kill them and serve them to his guests. Finally Nicholas found a case containing the bodies of three kids and on the sign of the cross rescued them back to life. In honour of this story Nicholas became the patron saint of small children.

The reason why Nicholas became patron saint of sailors and travellers is that on a voyage to the Holy Land the boat on which Nicholas was sailing was about to be wreck by the violent waves of a sea storm. Nicholas made the storm calm down, saving the boat.

But the most famous story is the one that generate the legend of Santa Claus! Having heard about a nobleman who had lost all his havings, Nicholas decided to provide a dowry for his three daughters. He secretly threw, through a window of the man house, a bag full of gold for each girl . Nicholas was descovered while throwing the third bag, but begged the nobleman not to reveal the thrut. For this story Nicholas became also the patron saint of girls without dowry.

Being St. Nicholas day on th 6th of December, close to Christmas day, his story was compared to the one of the Magi. Gradually Nicholas merged with the Christmas story and became familiar with the name of Santa Claus. Indeed is on his feast day that, in many countries, little presents and candies are given to children. In the Republic of Slovacchia for example on the night of the 5th Dec children polish their shoes to find filled of presents and candies on the following morning. Very symilar is the Italian tradition of the Epiphany, on 6th January... a kind old woman who flyes her brume and from chimney to chimney brings presents and candies to the children. Instead of the shoes in Italy we traditionally use sox.

On the 9 May In 1087, some Italian merchant steal the body of St. Nicholas in Myra and brought it to Bari, in Puglia (southern Italy) when on the 22 June 1197 a great Basilica was consecrated to the saint.

In Rome, in past times, there were 34 churches dedicated to St. Nicholas (the total number of churches is of nearly 400) of which only three survive today. The most ancient is the one of St. Nicola in Carcere (on Via del Mare), another is on Via dei Prefetti and a third on Largo Febo, near Piazza Navona with fine frescoes by Corrado Giaquinto (beginning of 18th century). Various is his iconography... always represented holding three bags or balls (recalling the story of the three girls) often is portrayed with children, a anchor or with a seaport on the background (again to recall his patronages). Saint Nicholas is also patron saint of loyers, traders, spice-dealers, perfumery-dealers and victims of judicial mistakes.