crystalclearblue

"better" always depends on who you ask.

True. Some think the world is worse because of morality and some think it's better because of technology. If my Grandchildren are safe, happy, healthy and free-then that is what I call better.

I appreciate this thread. My family and I are deeply concerned about our enviroment and very involved with recycling. Every little bit a person does helps. I think we are supposed to leave the world a better place for our grandchildren.

Old Chionese proverb:

Egg Foo yung left out overnight is egg foo old.

LOL. A very dear friend of mine works at a Chinese/American restaurant. I'll have to stop by for lunch, order egg foo young and tell her this. She loves groaners, even writes them down so she doesn't forget to tell them to the kids. Thanks Ham!

I was in a farm house outside of Ovala TX. Watching it on a fuzzy B/W TV.

Still remember the whole weekend because of the family reunion and all the fun we teens had. We stoped swiming at Lake Coleman to watch the landing. Went to the farm to watch the walk. The night before we broke down in Lawn. Lawn was so small all it had was one blinking light. Everyone out at the drivein movie with noone watching the movie. Everyone in the snak bar having a party.

O to be young again.

My sentiment exactly. O to be young again. My friends and I had huge crushes on astronauts after that. When I realized it had been forty years, I sure felt old! (None of us ever did end up marrying astronauts)

Regarding how TWI leadership handled untimely death: when Fred B, who had been our Limb Coordinator before being transferred to Missouri, we were told in our fellowship what a great man o' God Fred had been and how the adversary had been gunning for him because of his great stand for God and the ministry. We were all made to feel guilty that our shortcomings and lack of believing had opened the door for this horrendous attack. On the other hand, at TWI HQ itself, Fred was posthumously ripped to shreds for his lack of believing. Everybody was to blame!

I remember this too. Even his old girlfriend who was married and living in another state was treated weirdly when he died. The whole no deviating from your plan thing caused so much fear, it stopped people from living their lives. It went on for years.

I remember one woman was publicly praised for continuing to work hard even though she was very pregnant. She was held up as a great example. Then this other woman who was pregnant died in child birth. Afterwards she was ripped to shreds for not resting and taking care of herself better. I wondered if she had been influenced by the public praise the first woman had received, because she had always tried so hard to please. Mixed messages for sure.

I remember that table! It was in "overflow."

I'm not sure, but I think the table eventually was ratted out. I think I remember it being "confronted." Then the numbers went down and there was no longer a need for "over flow" even when there were events.

OMG, you win! Much better!

JT

Thanks, I'm honored.

There was this well-mannered fellow I met in twi. I don't know how he's been for decades now.

His name is B3rn@rd I. We were at a meal, and he ran a table in a "blind corner", where you

couldn't see the head table, and they couldn't see you. Once, by chance, I ended up at this table.

I discovered some people planned to sit there so they could just skip all the usual twi "protocol"

and relax at a meal. I also "read" his face. He wanted to say something, but he saw that relaxing

was important to the others, so he said nothing. I responded by telling him a joke, since I

appreciated what he was doing (or wasn't doing), and paid him back the best way I could at that

moment. Besides, it gave him something else to focus on for a moment. :)

I remember that table! It was in "overflow."

You may be a TWI tool if...

If you stand and applaud someone who is on the phone.

LOL. Or if you drive from a 250 mile radius to do it at a play back.

As a child I was told to use my "indoor voice" because it was not polite to yell indoors. You certainly did not yell at the dinner table. Yet the oSC had a microphone for yelling purposeS.

When I was growing up it was considered bad manners to ask personal questions or not mind your own business. wy leadership was the biggest bunch of busy bodies I ever knew. They had too much time on their hands. "Get a real job" was probably coined with them in mind.

I Thes 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business. And to work with your own hands, as we commanded you.

Precisely!

The purpose of etiquette is to make an event a pleasant and stress free experience for the participants.

What we did in TWI, with all our precise table manners, etc., was not etiquette, it was ritualized behavior.

LOL. Yep. Definately was not pleasant or sress free. So much pressure, and God forbid leadership should sit at your table....

Manners. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I saw a lot of Way believers become rude about manners. Ripping someone to shreads over a slight mis step with words, or not wiping a table properly etc....All in the name of ettiquette or being decent and in order. Some guy once flipped out and yelled at me because I passed the wrong plate to someone. I had violated ettiquette by doing that. Ironic really. He was more rude and inconsiderate by yelling at me in front of everyone than what I did by passing the wrong plate. I was humiliated at the time, but now I just think he was weird.

Yesterday, Eagle 709 apologized for the way he wrote that post. He got the point and he was sorry. He changed his position. How about giving some understanding towards him? Likewise, we don't know what he has gone through and maybe being harsh to him AFTER he tried to make it right will shut him down when he needs to talk.

(I hope he posts more about his Dad, that sounded really cool. A lot of us didn't have a strong parent to draw from.)

Send her this way. There are more than a few people here that she could share experiences with and perhaps get some perspective, or at least have someone else to talk to besides you.

Good book I'm reading right now - "Let Your Goddess Grow" Gets into a lot of that holding on stuff.

She actually was the one who told me about gs cafe. She said she stopped posting a few years ago. That book sounds interesting, I'm going to see if the library has it tomorrow. Thanks for the recommendation.

it took me several years of intensive therapy before I could admit I'd been in a cult. I was simply too ashamed, and afraid no one could relate. it's entirely possible that your friend has the same fear, which is preventing her from healing, and the hurt is just festering and leaking out everywhere. how can you get to the point of acceptance (and I don't even believe in the forgiveness bullsh!t that the touchy-feely spiritual therapies embrace - sorry if that offends anyone, but I think forgiveness is over-rated) and if you don't get there, the bitterness won't go away.

I've known her for a long time and she was actually a bitter person even before her way experience. The way experience certainly didn't help. I know what you mean about being ashamed-some of the things that went on or that I participated in the way are just too embarrassing to even want to talk about to anyone.

Perhaps your friend is not getting over it because there are issues that require more than time to heal. Perhaps she needs counseling, or is depressed and could find medical help or a combination. Outside of TWI, there is no shame in seeking such help or suggesting it to a loved one.

Thanks, that is very thoughtful for you to point that out. She has sought professional help, but it hasn't been very helpful yet because from what she tells me, she doesn't tell them what her issues are. There is a great side to her personality, but the bitterness she carries can be overwhelming at times for those around her. She's lost a lot of friends because of it. It's sad,really.

Thank you for your response. I agree with you. Since I don't even know who I'm writing to I'd have to say "get over it" is too harsh and I apologize.

I failed to mention that I and all my peers were trashed also. I think in my case I was raised by a very strong Dad who made more of an impression on me than VPW, which probably made it easier to leave. By the way , I wasn't a gun toting cowboy on a daily basis, it was just once, and Chris Geer set me up with it, and I didn't know how TWI abused women until after I left the thing. I actually didn't know that anywhere near the amount went on as I am finding out now. Once again, I apologize, and thank you for your response.

Eagle

Thanks for your response too. That's cool about your Dad.

Dear Eagle 709. Sometimes people just need to talk. Sometimes it's hard to find people who understand what it was like. Each person is at a different place. There is not one quote or phrase that is a cure all. I think you have to really know someone before prescribing that they "get over it".

I do know someone I wish I could say that to. She was hurt by the way. They never should have treated her the way they did. But she does get annoying because it's been almost ten years and I am sick of hearing about it. I'm also sick of hearing her blame her parents, her siblings, coworkers, spouse, me etc... for her life being miserable.

She has worn me down because nothing has changed or become even a little better. She even once said that her kids would be permanently traumatized because of her life experiences. She's planning on upseting them with things that happened before they were born and don't have anything to do with. But she's like that. She enjoys feeling sorry for herself and likes holding grudges. But the reason I know this is because I have spent a lot of time with her. But I still haven't told her to just "get over It." Although I'm dangerously close.

Point being, sometimes someone does need to be told to "get over it". But i would be very careful about who you say it to. What if they still need some time to talk and sort things out and you scare them off, thus making their recovery take that much longer?

I've been thinking about what Shellon wrote. I'm so sorry you and your kids and family were treated like that. Loss is hard enough in itself. But to have the people closest to you blame you is unthinkable.

A therapist once told a friend of mine that she was having irrational thinking, because she was feeling guilty about her husband's death. He had been ill for a long time before he died. After he died she kept going back and forth between thinking maybe she didn't do enough to find a cure or maybe she let him suffer too long while she hoped for a cure. The therapist told her grief brings on irrational thinking. There was nothing she could have done to change the outcome. After she shared this with me, she asked me to help her when she started experiencing irrational thinking again.

She would sometimes call in the middle of the night, and all I had to do was remind her how much she loved her husband, how much he loved her and he knew she did everything she could for him. That's all it took for her to get peaceful again. When she would go through this, it was as if she was being tortured. It's now four years later and she is doing very well. She is happy and healthy and even dating. But it took over two years for her to get healed. I honestly believe that if someone had tried to blame her or play that kind of a mind game on her, she would not have survived it.

The therapist was right. It's irrational to blame ourselves or someone else for a death. It's part of the cycle of life. God can heal and deliver, I would never want to give up on believing that. I'll believe that until someone takes their last breath. But when it's done, we just have to help each other heal and love each other. No need for a "spiritual" autopsy.

Shellon, you seem like a very strong person to have survived all that and to be in contact with the relatives. You probably understand how to really help people the way they truly need to be helped.

I think the reason leaders blamed people so much is because they were terrible at their jobs. They had no clue how to minister to people. They liked to tout themselves as being a MOG with us knowing the truth greater than it had ever been known before blah blah blah. They should have known better than anyone how to minister. But for all their ego and holier than thou lectures, the were incompetant and inept. That's why they blamed.

Hi, crystalclearblue

Yes, it is sad.

The Way promised to deliver a pie-in-the-sky utopia (via what they claimed was "God's Word") that defies the reality of how real life works. Maybe we were all just too young and naive to see it (The Way) for what it really was, a money making scheme for VPW & Co.

Anyway, welcome to GSC.

Have a latte on the house.

Thanks for the latte. Yum.

How very sad this all is. I did not know their family very well, but I could tell that they really loved each other and seemed very close and happy. I find it interesting that it seems like the Panarello's stayed on good terms with the way. Both ministries are mentioned in the obituary and they are going to help raise the Grandchildren from what his letter said. I'm glad Krystine was not pressured into cutting her parents out of her life. It's nice they can be there for each other. I feel sad for them all that they have had this loss.