James Trimm

Again I suggest the added context of the free PDF book The Apostasy and Restoration http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8676000/8676568/2/print/restore2.pdf When we reorganized the ancient Sect of the Nazarenes in 1996, in the absence of a Nazarene Beit Din, this passage of Deut. required us to establish one. I have Jewish blood. Mine is through my father and rabbinic Judaism only respects bloodline through a mother. We argue that the linage was Abraham to Isaac to Jacob... Also Esther 8:17 refers quite plainly to those who "become Jews" (no bloodline involved). How can you judge the relevancy of that which you dismiss as to long to read....

Heaven forbid the truth might be more than your attention span. You seem to assume anyone is guilty whose defense outlasts your attention span.

In fact an independent Beit Din heard this matter ten years ago and ruled: We find James Trimm's use of the pseudonym of Rabbi Yosef not inappropriate on the Mormon forums within James Trimm's frame of reference.

This seems to have been a drive-by attack, as when I stated it was totally false, rather than give your "particulars" you totally changed the subject. This was already covered in the PDF file I directed people to at: http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8857000/8857710/1/print/sl2.pdf However I will now repost it here: I am not a proponent of the Book of Mormon. Many years ago (back in the mid 1990’s) I did in fact go onto Mormon discussion groups under pseudonyms and argued against Mormonism by using The Book of Mormon in a “for arguments sake” type approach. The BoM quotes and paraphrases many phrases, verses, concepts and even whole chapters from the Bible. In fact as much as half or more of the BoM actually closely parallels passages in the Bible. As a result there is much Biblical truth in the BoM. These are Biblical truths that first appeared in the Bible. Therefore regardless of whether or not the BoM is true or not there is none-the-less a great deal of truth in the BoM. If one takes a Hebraic-Roots approach to these Biblical truths that appear in the BoM one is able teach these truths to Mormons from a "Jewish Perspective" and thus deal with what could be called "Jewishness" in/of the BoM. This "Jewishness" is simply the result of applying a Hebraic-Roots approach and a Jewish perspective to Biblical truths that appear in the BoM. These Biblical truths appear because the BoM quotes and paraphrases many phrases, verses, concepts and even whole chapters from the Bible. Now because of the fact that the BoM contains Biblical truth, it can be very useful in reaching Mormons with these Biblical truths. And by applying a Jewish/Hebraic-roots perspective on these Biblical truths one can effectively reach Mormons with both Torah and Messiah. Christian ministries have used this type of approach for years in attempting to reach Mormons with Orthodox Christianity. One tract published by Personal Freedom Outreach says: Anyone visited by a Mormon Missionary has heard the Elder's testimony concerning the Book of Mormon: That he knows this book is the Word of God and that the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, Jr., translated it by the gift and power of God. Further, the prospect is encouraged sincerely to study the Book of Mormon and "The divine truths it contains." The Book of Mormon indeed does contain a number of "divine truths", first set forth in the Bible,... [the author then lists six of these] Much of the major theology set forth in the Book of Mormon is indeed in harmony with orthodox Christianity. However, many who are visited by the LDS Missionaries are unaware that the present theology of the Mormon Church is very different from their own Book of Mormon. ... Mormon theology is not contained in, but rather contradicted by the Book of Mormon.... The presence of "Divine Truths" within the Book of Mormon is merely a result of Joseph Smith, Jr. incorporating much of the Bible into his work. (see 'The use of the Bible in the Book of Mormon by H. Michael Marquardt). - DIVINE TRUTHS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON http://www.associate.com/ministry_files/The_Reading_Room/False_Teaching_n_Teachers_1/Divine_Truths_In_The_Book_Of_Mo.shtml There are a number of Christian tracts and ministries that have taken this same approach to disprove Mormon theology and teach Orthodox Christian theology to Mormons using the divine truths in their Book of Mormon. For example the tract THOSE PLAIN AND PRECIOUS THINGS from Saints Alive: http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/plainandprecious.htm and an article called: Joseph Smith vs. the Book of Mormon By Gary F. Zeolla http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/smith.htm Some years ago I adapted this same approach to Messianic/Nazarene Judaism. By taking a Hebraic-Roots Jewish approach to these "divine truths" in the Book of Mormon I could actually reach Mormons with real Torah based divine truth USING THEIR OWN BOOK! This approach becomes very important because Mormons put more stock in the Book of Mormon than in the Bible. As a Saints Alive tract correctly states: "I (Joseph Smith) told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (History of the Church, Volume 4, Page 461) It is the LDS concept that the Bible is the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly, that is, what is left of the Bible after many Plain and Precious Things were removed by the great and abominable church. The Mormon also "knows" that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God. It did not have many Plain and Precious Things removed. It did not suffer at the hands of many translations. (Those Plain and Precious Things tract- Saints Alive) This tract goes on to show that the many unique Mormon doctrines do NOT appear in the Book of Mormon which actually teaches against them. The tract continues further down: 1 Nephi 13:26-36 says that the "great and abominable church" (verse 26) took away from the gospel many parts and covenants which were Plain and Precious, in order to pervert the ways of the Lord and blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the people. The Bible was corrupted because of this (verse 28). What were some of those Plain and Precious Things? Are these those that separate Mormonism from the Christianity that grew out of the past? Are these not the law of eternal progression, salvation, baptism for the dead, the nature of God, temples, and polygamy? The Lord God (Elohim) promised that a day would come when these things will be restored (verse 32) after the Gentiles stumble about because of this act of the "mother of harlots" taking the most Plain and Precious Things of the Gospel of the Lamb (verse 34). The Lamb of God (Jesus) says exactly how this restoration of all the Plain and Precious Things will come about. In verse 35 He says He will manifest Himself to the Seed of Nephi and they shall write many things all the precious things taken away by that church and even after they (your seed) are all gone. These things shall be hidden up to come forth unto the Gentiles. Verse 36 says, "And in them shall be written my gospel., saith the Lamb, and my rock (word "rock" refers to the gospel' see D&C 11:24) and my salvation." Therefore, the Plain and Precious Things taken away by the great and abominable church must be restored in the Book of Mormon. This is verified by Latter-day revelations also: "For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock." (D&C 18:4) "And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the Word of God." (D&C 19:26) "And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon; which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also." (D&C 20:8&9) "And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fullness of the gospel." (D&C 42:12) What are the things contained in the fullness of the gospel, the Book of Mormon, which are lost, hidden and not contained in the Bible? By the Word of God, they must be in the Book of Mormon. Where are these teaching of Mormonism? The critical doctrines that separate Mormonism from the Christianity that was debased for the loss of "many Plain and Precious Things" from its scriptures by the "great and abominable church" are listed here: [the author then lists several unique Mormon doctrines] The Book of Mormon is the "Stick of Joseph." Either these doctrines must be found in the Book of Mormon or Mormonism is subject to the words of Jesus in His judgment of 3 Nephi 27:11; Alma 13:20; 2 Nephi 28:15; 2 Nephi 28:16, 21-24, 25. Not only can these things not be found in the Book of Mormon, but the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO SOME OF THESE "LDS ONLY" DOCTRINES! ... The Author goes on to list several examples. Note also that this Christian author [saints Alive founder Ed Decker?] takes a "for arguments sake" type approach. (In fact in this and many similar Christian writings the authors, in taking this approach say many things that could be quoted out of context so as to imply that they believe the BoM is true.) Now many years ago I did in fact go onto Mormon discussion groups under pseudonyms and argued against Mormonism by using their own books in a “for arguments sake” type approach.

I have no idea what "particulars" you think you have, but that is totally false.

Actually with the first level ordination they ordained each other. With the second level they claim Peter, James and John descended from heaven and ordained them...

I don't have to take this abuse from you... I've got thousands of people out there that want to abuse ME.

If you want to understand the foundations of our authority to administer the Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim read the following free book: The Apostasy and Restoration http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8676000/8676568/2/print/restore2.pdf

If you want to see the fruits of the International Nazarene Beit Din Visit the Virtual Chamber of Hewn Stone and look at our halacha and resolutions: http://nazarenespace.ning.com/group/virtualchamberofhewnstone I think the quality of our halachah speaks for itself.

This is what I mean by internet conspiracy theories. I have never met or spoken to Michael Rood in my life. I have never even exchanged email with the man.

No, we got the authority to establish a Beit Din from the Torah (not me): Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment. (Deut. 16:18 KJV) The Beit Din is a voting body.

I did not get where I did with the lawsuit by lying my way through my deposition. If I had lied in my deposition, I have no doubt that TWI attorneys would have taken the case to trial prepared to destroy my credibility before the jury. I am sure they checked up on these things, for exactly that reason. Why settle a suit with someone you can prove lied their way through their deposition?

According to Orthodox Halacha a Beit Din of three elders can give s'mikhah (laying on of hands - "ordination") (as stated in the Mishnah m.Sanhedrin 1:3)

The following is from my sworn deposition taken by TWI attorneys taken Jan. 29, 2010 concerning the Phil Arnn issue: We had Mr. Arnn standing by available as a witness (BTW I later found out that after many years he has left Watchman Fellowship although they still know him well.) This is what I mean when I say that you can say anything on the internet, but when it comes to court and real facts and real discovery and real depositions then internet conspiracy theories start to evaporate. Remember TWI chose to settle this suit rather than take it to trial after the process of taking depositions and discovery.

Phil Arnn related in a statement a great many "recollections" including a "recollection" that he had NOT written any letter of recommendation for me. Phil Arnn later retracted his earlier statement saying that when shown the actual letter in question he *did* recall writing it and then he characterized his previous statement as based on "one phone conversation" he only "vaguely recall[ed]". James, When I was first told about the letter in question ( it was not available on-line at the time) I did not remember ever writing a letter for you. I was also under the impression that the letter was an endorsement of your present theology and movement. Now that I have read the letter, it is obvious that it is mine and was limited to the recommendation of yourself and the work you had done on the Branch Davidian theology articles for the Expositor. As to the reason for your receiving the degree, our recollections differ. But, I only vaguely recall you mentioning the degree in one phone conversation. The Word clearly says that a truth is established in the mouths of two or three witnesses, not just one. At the present time, 2003, we obviously have taken different roads as to theology. But, as far as the two issues I have mentioned above, I hope this sets the record straight. Phillip Arnn, Senior Researcher Watchman Fellowship, Inc. In a later email Phil Arnn said: This is like a television crime drama. Where were you on June 3ard, 1995? Did you have a phone conversation with one James Scott Trimm on the morning of - - - ? What did he say to you? What did you say to him? Frankly, I did not remember writing the letter until I saw the letter again on James's website. I do not remember with a certainty what we said.

Not going to debate doctrine here. I will say that Rabbinic Judaism teaches that we fulfill the commandments to keep the Shabbat holy, remember the Shabbat and have a holy convocation on the Shabbat though the synagogue service. I was never kicked out of the Messianic congregation I belonged to in the 1980's, I chose to leave because the leader exercised unbiblical control over the congregation (familiar to some of you I am sure). I have also not been "kicked out of" any Nazarene Jewish group. A small group of elders who had already be stripped of their positions broke off and created their own "splinter group" which of course they insist is the original. The splinter group has since faded away, it has no member congregations, has held no conferences, published no books or pamphlets etc. over the years since they broke away. Meanwhile the International Nazarene Beit Din and Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim has canonized scriptures, passed resolutions, passed halachot, planted congregations worldwide, held conferences, published books, produced broadcast radio shows, taught free Bible Correspondence Courses, taught advanced Yeshiva courses and even fought and settled a lawsuit with TWI. Calling this even a "split" might be an exaggeration. It would be more accurate to say that a group of elders left intending to create a splinter group and failed. Actually I was quiet here posting only occasionally for months, because I was involved in a lawsuit and wanted to be careful in my words. Now that it is all behind me I have these backed up thjings to talk about.

I have long been interested in Comparative Theology and so-called "cults". In the past I served as a consultant with both the Watchman Fellowship and the Reunion Institute in that regard. I also served as a consultant on a couple of books about the Branch Davidians. A paper I wrote "The Place of Fire in Branch Davidian Theology" was cited by Congress in the Congressional hearings on the Waco Incident back in the 1990's.

Well after a good deal of consideration I am leaving this sub-board. I will still be around the Grease Spot for now, as the suit has sparked my interest in TWI, and many Grease Spot Cafe members have graciously encouraged me to stay. It appears that posting to this sub board would be of limited value. Part of the reason is that it creates battles on to many fronts at once, as there is no unified belief system of the members here. I am bound from cutting and pasting, which means I would have to recompose all of my responses, and I just do not have time to re-write what I have already written. If anyone wishes to discuss doctrine with me, my email is cleartruth@yahoo.com I may continue academic discussions of Hebrew and Aramaic NT origins, which I do not regard as doctrinal and which can only have two fronts, either the NT was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, or it was not.

This lawsuit with TWI has brought me to realize the value that several ex-TWI people contributed to research on the Aramaic NT and Aramaic NT origins. Unfortunately it was behind the iron curtain of TWI and as pretty much all the Aramaic researchers left TWI, they never reorganized or did any further published research on the subject on the other side of that curtain. I would like to see that change. I have been thinking about starting a non-sectarian, non-denominational on-line PDF journal for serious Hebrew and Aramaic NT Origins research. If you are interested either in contributing to. or receiving such a journal, email me at cleartruth@yahoo.com

Wierwille was hypocritical on this issue (as are many Christian dispensationalists). It the law has been done away with in this dispensation (or as VPW would say "administration") then the tithe has been done away with along with the Sabbath etc.) (Of course I do not believe that the law was abolished) From VPW's perspective, the only reason to teach tithing was financial convenience.

In 1989 I left Beth Yeshua Congregation of my own choice. At the time I was hosting a Torah Study being led by an Orthodox Rabbi who had become a believer in Messiah. This study was being held some 20 miles from Beth Yeshua, on a night which did not conflict with Beth Yeshua activities and no one from Beth Yeshua (except myself) was attending. Stan Eisenberg (then the leader of Beth Yeshua) and another member from Beth Yeshua Congregation, came to my door as two “witnesses” that I could not continue to host these studies and remain a part of Beth Yeshua Congregation. Stan Eisenberg told me that if I continued to host these studies he could no longer be my “covering”. I told Stan that in Hebrew the word for “covering” is KIPPUR which also means “atonement”. I told Stan that he was not my “atonement” and never would be. I also told Stan that if I could not host a private Torah study in my own home without Stan’s permission, that I would no longer be a member of Beth Yeshua Congregation. The next day was a Wednesday and that Wednesday night at the weekly prayer meeting Stan announced that I was being disfellowshipped from Beth Yeshua Congregation (although I was no longer a member). The officially announced reason was that I had chosen to “seek [my] own way away from the congregation”. In a letter dated June 14th 1990 Kuni Beasley, then a member of Beth Yeshua Congregation, recalled the events this way: “When Stan gathered the congregation to advise us of the decision to disfellowship [James] Scott [Trimm], he was very clear on the reasons for this action: Scott was in sin, had refused to repent, and was determined to seek his own way away from the congregation.” (Kuni Beasley 1990 letter page 7) In this 1990 letter Kuni was actually writing in support of Stan’s action and stated that one of the key issues in my departure from Beth Yeshua was my challenge to “Rabbi Eisenberg’s Biblical authority as leader of the congregation” (p. 1) and referred to Stan’s “authority to exercise offices of episkipos (bishop) and presbbuteros (elder) of the congregation, and his calling to minister as the poimen (pastor/shepherd) of Beth Yeshua” (p. 1). He refers to Heb. 13:17 as supporting Stan’s authority and states that “Scott has a problem with this scripture” (part 2 page 13 n. 58). Nearly two years later, on March 25th, 1992 Kuni Beasley made the following statement to Beth Yeshua Congregation: “I am committed to Stan Eisenberg’s appointment and ordination by God to be the spiritual leader of Beth Yeshua Congregation. I will assert that no one else in the congregation has done more to support and defend this over the last year than I have. I will remain committed to Stan Eisenberg’s divine appointment as the spiritual leadership of Beth Yeshua Congregation until shown otherwise.” Then two months later on May 30th Kuni issued a written and verbal statement saying: “I am a witness to the truth of Chris’ testimony.” The testimony he referred to was that of Chris Ayers, another member of Beth Yeshua Congregation. The testimony they both delivered was written and verbal (they read from it) as follows: Stan Eisenberg is in error and is leading this congregation in an unbiblical manner. He executes his congregational authority without being accountable to anyone. He quotes Hebrews 13:17 and demands that the congregation obey him and submit to him. But who does Stan submit to? Who is he accountable to (1Pet. 5:5)? All references to the congregational leadership in the Bible indicate a leadership made up of a bishop, elders and deacons. According to Stan, no one fits the qualifications except him. For most of 12 years this congregation has not had accountable leaders according [to] the Bible. (Statement made Chris Ayers and Kuni Beasley at Beth Yeshua on May 30, 1992) Kuni describes the giving of this testimony before the congregation this way: On May 30, 1992, as the congregational announcements were concluding, Chris Ayers and I stood up in the midst of the assembly of Beth Yeshua Congregation, Ft. Worth, Texas, and delivered the statement… This action was done in accordance with 1Timothy 5:19-20. It was not pretty. Amid the shouting of the Congregation leader, Stan Eisenberg, his wife, and various persons in attendance, the message was delivered, albeit, after the written statements from which we were reading were torn from our hands several times by Stan Eisenberg. And in a letter dated June 9th 1992 Kuni writes: Stan is operating the congregation illegitimately… Stan operates without congregational accountability, holds to the supremacy and absolute finality of his personal decisions and imposes sanctions on those in the congregation who question his authority or his personal doctrinal position. In the wake of this testimony several key members left Beth Yeshua Congregation including Chris Ayers and Kuni Beasley for the same reason I had. I suspect my story is similar to many of yours.

Uhhh... "tithe" MEANS "tenth". There are actually three tithes in the Torah (sometimes the second and third tithe are combined, since they are never paid in the same year) It was the third tithe that went to the widows and orphans. My view on this as taken from the Scriptures is at: http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-tithe-of-yhwh-the-cost-of-4 http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-tithe-of-yhwh-the-cost-of-5 But lets end the doctrinal discussion. The point of this thread was to analyze VPW as a composite.

I only recruit people to follow Messiah (i.e. Matthew 28:18-20) and "tithes and donations" are simply part of the Torah like keeping the Sabbath, eating Kosher and keeping Biblical festivals. I don't ask for tithes, YHWH does not "ask" for them either, He already owns the tithe (Lev. 27:30) as he owns everything (Ex. 9:29; 2Kn. 19:15; Is. 66:1-2; Jer. 27:5; Job 12:9-10; Ps. 89:11; 95:3-5; Dan. 4:7; Neh. 9:16; 1Chron. 29:13-14) and in fact no one is ever described in Scripture as "giving" the tithe, they "pay" the tithe and in fact when they do not pay the tithe YHWH refers to this as having been stolen form Him (Mal. 3:8-9). I do not want to get into a doctrinal debate here, that is not for this sub-board. Abigail seems to be attacking our beliefs. We are Torah observant believers in Messiah, and Torah includes the tithe.

My understanding of Acts 15 is here: http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/understanding-acts-15 BTW notice that Acts 15:21 says: For Moshe, from the first generations, had proclaimers in every city in the synagogues, who read him on every shabbat. "for" tells us what this reasoning is there "for" in other words this ruling in Acts 15 was given because "Moshe, from the first generations, had proclaimers in every city in the synagogues, who read him on every shabbat." If you are not going to Synagogue on Shabbat and hearing the Torah read and taught, Acts 15 has no application to you. Acts 15 gives the essentials of what a Gentile needs to do in order to join the community and begin learning Torah (details are at the link above)

If anyone chooses to read my PDF they will find that I was like a loot of you, I left a group because the leader exercised un-biblical leadership and claimed to be my "covering" (In Hebrew "covering and "atonement" are the same work KIPPUR) and the day after I left I was disfellowshipped publicly for the "crime" of "seeking his own way apart from the congregation"... in short I left a "cult" and was "marked for avoidance" for having done so. I left that group around 1988 and I did not found the reorganization of "Nazarene Judaism" until 1996 so the claim that I split from one group o create another is false. Is Nazarene Judaism a cult? Well I could count on one hand the number of people who we have disfellowshipped since 1996 (nearly fifteen years). Our statement of faith is intentionally broad and short. We believe in unity on the essentials and against division over non-essentials.