How many of us have heard the Rapture is a “signless” event?
This thread is about:
1. The Mystery of God/The Hope of Glory/The Rapture: The Torah and the Book of Revelation—and the agreement of Moses & John, the prophets, apostles, and Christ.
2. God must follow His own Law.
To set the stage for this thread, let me pose a few Bible questions:
1.What are the 2 incorrect assumptions extracted from 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2, which yield this faulty conclusion: The Rapture is “signless” because Christ is coming as a “thief”?
2.Why did Peter quote Joel (2:28-32a) on Pentecost, and why did Peter stop at Joel 2:32a, and why does the blood red moon (again) “appear” at the Sixth Seal (Rev. 6:12)?
3.How is the Rapture connected to the mystery once hidden in “the feasts of the Lord” —Rosh Hashanah/The Feast of Trumpets—and in what letter did Christ reveal the first 5 holy days that apply to the glorious riches of the mystery: “Christ in you, the hope of glory”?
4.Christ said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one dot or one mark will pass from the law until all be fulfilled.” (Matt. 5:17, 18) ... Where in the Book of Revelation is Christ’s prophecy fulfilled completely?
These questions are here as a catalyst for thought, and will be addressed in this thread.
The “Rapture” (Latin: Rapiemur), (1 Thess. 4:17) is sound doctrine; it is the revelation of the mystery—our future “salvation”/“hope of glory”—and will come to pass exactly as Christ revealed to Peter, Paul, and John: at the commencement of the Day of the Lord.
“Signless” has no scriptural justification.
If you already know the answers to the above questions, jump in.
We—as Christ’s Church—deserve to know the heavenly and earthly signs that mark the next unmistakable threshold in time: the Day of the Lord & the Rapture.
Do you know someone still uncertain about the sound doctrine of the mystery/the Hope of Glory, the Rapture? Ask him/her to stop by.
Peace.
revvel
Hi Revvel,
After being exposed to Preterism and believing a good amount of it, I'm now uncertain about "the Rapture" a.k.a. "Gathering Together" as taught by TWI. It's not the actual event but more of the "mind picture" we all know and "timeline" that I question now. Actually I don't fully believe the preterist version either but it's got me wondering. In any case, your research is worth taking a look and thank you!
Thank you again Oldiesman. I appreciate your thoughtful & kind comments.
Stay tuned...
To understand “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (once hidden in the Law and revealed in the Book of Revelation) is to understand our present and future (the Rapture/gathered before His heavenly Throne). And it is to understand the content and order of end-time events, which has overlapping numeric chronologies: the Law & Revelation, and this pulls together the entire Bible.
Only a divine Creator could have crafted such a magnificent plan. Before posting on this, there are 3 more questions to complete the "stage."
I’m looking to turn your thoughts to the mystery of God via questions.
1 Cor. 15:51-55 & Revelation 7:9-17
1. Paul and John both quoted Isaiah 25:8 in their respective revelations, why?
Romans 16:25-27
Paul said:
“Now to Him who has power to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret for long ages past, but now is revealed by the prophetic Scriptures according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith, to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.”
In Romans, Paul revealed “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” And he did so in 6 consecutive verses—quoting the same prophet and prophecy as Peter did on Pentecost.
2. Where did Paul reveal “Christ in you, the hope of glory” in Romans, and how does it relate to what Peter declared on Pentecost?
1 Cor. 2:7, 8
Paul said:
“We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age knew it. For had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
3. What was the mystery that Christ revealed to Paul in 1 Corinthians, and how does it reveal “Christ in you, the hope of glory” once hidden in the Law?
We now have 7 Bible questions. If you don’t know the answers to the above questions, you deserve to know.
If you know the answers to the above questions, jump in.
How many of us have heard the following man-made terms: “pre-trib,” “mid-trib,” and “post-trib”?
Let me ask:
What’s the probability…
The Law and the Book of Revelation dismantle this man-made structure — “pre-trib,” “mid-trib,” and “post-trib” — and sweep the wreckage into the theological garbage can?
What’s the probability…
The precedents God gave us through Moses and Christ enable us to see the mystery from Acts to the Book of Revelation?
What’s the probability…
With God's precedents, we have biblical research tools that work 100% of the time, no exceptions, and thus, we have Christ and the Law on our side?
Next:
1. How did Christ use the symbol of a “thief”?
2. How is it identical to Paul’s use of a “thief”—which has nothing to do with “signless”?
3. What are the celestial and earthly signs that mark the onset of the Day of the Lord & the Rapture—and what does it have to do with the symbol of a “thief”?
And this:
4. Why does the Rapture line up with the fifth holy day, Rosh Hashanah/The Feast of Trumpets?
Christ: Coming as “a Thief”/Second Coming to Israel
“Look, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments on, lest he walk naked and his shame be exposed.” They gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Armageddon. (Rev. 16:15, 16)
Did Christ use the symbol of a “thief” to prophesy of a “signless” event?
Is the battle of Armageddon a “signless” event?
No, of course not.
If Christ didn’t use the symbol of a “thief” to mean “signless,” then what right does anyone in His kingdom have to claim the symbol of a “thief” means “signless”?
Zero.
Equating “thief” with “signless” is without scriptural justification.
Next, Part 2: Why did Christ use the symbol of a “thief”?
1.What is the symbol—the precedent—in the Gospels that gives the visual effect of Christ coming as a “thief” to Israel/Armageddon, and where did Christ reveal how the symbol of a “thief” is relevant to end times, and how does this all translate to the revelation of the mystery for the Church that Christ gave to Paul in 1 Thess. 5?
In other words, if we know what Christ has to say about the symbol of a “thief,” then we can understand Christ’s revelation to Paul.
2. What are the 2 incorrect assumptions extracted from 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2, which yield this faulty conclusion: The Rapture is “signless” because Christ is coming as a “thief”?
If you don’t know the answers to the above questions, you deserve to know the answers.
1.What is the symbol—the precedent—in the Gospels that gives the visual effect of Christ coming as a “thief” to Israel/Armageddon, and where did Christ reveal how the symbol of a “thief” is relevant to end times, and how does this all translate to the revelation of the mystery for the Church that Christ gave to Paul in 1 Thess. 5?
2. What are the 2 incorrect assumptions extracted from 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2, which yield this faulty conclusion: The Rapture is “signless” because Christ is coming as a “thief”?
If you still believe in a “signless” Rapture, you will be set free from this “signless” snare… And you will be free to believe the revelation of the mystery, our hope of glory, as Christ revealed to Peter, Paul, and John: the Rapture will occur at the onset of the Day of the Lord, accompanied by dramatic celestial and earthy signs—prior to the wrath.
What are the 2 incorrect assumptions extracted from 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2, which yield this faulty conclusion: The Rapture is “signless” because Christ is coming as a “thief”?
The Day of the Lord: 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2
“Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
First Incorrect Assumption: The Rapture is “signless” because Paul used the symbol ofa “thief in the night.”
Did Paul say,
Now, brothers and sisters, about signs we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night?
No, of course not.
What exactly did Paul say?
“Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
The figure of speech— “a thief in the night” —refers right back to the immediate context: “times and dates”—not the lack of signs.
The first incorrect assumption is to equate “thief in the night” with a lack of signs. There is no scriptural justification in the immediate context to support this position—and this includes verse 3.
1 Thessalonians 5:3: “Sudden”
“When they say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.”
“Times and dates” and “sudden” refer to timing—not signs.
The Day of the Lord: 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2
Second Incorrect Assumption: “Christ” is coming as a “thief” at the time of the Rapture.
This is simply a gross misreading/interpretation of the text.
Did Paul say,
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that Christ will come like a thief in the night.
No, of course not.
What exactly did Paul say?
“Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
Is the “Day of the Lord” “signless”?
No, of course not. It’s the complete opposite.
Peter: The Day of the Lord: Acts 2:19, 20/Mystery: Joel 2:30, 31
“And I will show wonders in heaven above and signs on the earth below: blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and glorious day of the Lord comes.”
*Paul—in Romans 10—quoted Joel, as did Peter in Acts 2, why? Answer this, and you will eliminate any lingering thoughts that Paul prophesied of a “signless” event.
John: The Day of the Lord/Wrath: Revelation 6:12-17
“I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the rich men and the commanding officers and the strong and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?'”
"Signless"?
Zephaniah 1:14, 15: “The great day of the Lord” = the “day of wrath.”
Thief in the Night: There is no scriptural justification in the immediate context to support equating “the day of the Lord” and “thief” with “signless.” And there is no scriptural justification in the remote context: Christ’s precedent and use of a “thief.”
“Signless” is worthless. Deception.
Next:
Christ: The Precedent: the symbol of a “thief” and its visual representation.
If we want to understand Christ’s revelation to Paul about the symbol of a “thief” ...
We don’t have to be in subjection to incorrect assumptions, but rather, look to the precedents: Christ… and the OT prophets He drew upon.
1.What is the symbol—the precedent—that Christ handed us in the Gospels that gives the visual effect of His coming as a “thief” to Israel?
2.Who were prophets that Christ drew upon when He prophesied of His second coming to Israel, and how do their prophecies set the stage for Christ’s use of a “thief”?
Today is Yom (Day) Kippur (Atonement)
Christ revealed the mystery once hidden in this holy day to Paul (Rom. 11:25-27). Yom Kippur foreshadows what will come to pass at the second coming of Christ to Israel: salvation for Israel & atonement for the house of Jacob. (See the other thread: The Parable of the 10 Virgins.)
And in the Book of Revelation, Christ Himself issued a prophecy of His second coming to Israel:
Revelation 16:15, 16
“Look, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments on, lest he walk naked and his shame be exposed.” They gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
Looking at this prophecy, and looking back at the Gospels… What is the symbol—the precedent—that gives the visual effect of Christ coming as a “thief”?
“Lightning.”
In Matthew,Christ issued a prophecy of His second coming to Israel (which draws upon Old Testament prophecies):
Matthew 24:27-31
“For as the lightningcomes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, ‘the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light;[Joel 3:15, 16: “Zion”/“Jerusalem”/“children of Israel”] the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet[Isaiah 27:12, 13/“sons of Israel”], and they shall gather His elect from thefour winds[Ezekiel 37:9-14/“whole house of Israel”] from one end of the heavens to the other.”
Precedent: Symbol of a thief: “Lightning”
Christ, as a “thief,” as “lightning,” suddenly appears with celestial signs as He descends to the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4).
The root/base word of “lightning” means “to flash as lightning.”
What is “signless” about Christ’s revelation/precedent of a “thief”?
Nothing.
Additional Old Testament Precedents
Malachi 3:1-4: Second Coming to Israel: “Suddenly”
“And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight. He is coming, says the Lord of Hosts. But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them like gold and silver, and they will present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasant to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.”
Isaiah 66:14-16: Second Coming to Israel: “With Fire/like a Whirlwind”
“Then you shall see this, and your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb; and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward His servants, and His indignation toward His enemies. For the Lord shall come with fire and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword on all flesh, the Lord shall execute judgment; and the slain of the Lord shall be many.”
"Signless" is in direct contradiction to the witness of the prophets, Christ, and the apostles.
Next:
1. How did Christ connect the symbol of a “thief” with end times?
2.How does this symbol of a “thief” apply to the revelation Christ gave to Paul about the Rapture in 1 Thess. 5 when the day of the Lord breaks upon the planet?
“Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
1. How did Christ connect the symbol of a “thief” with end times?
2. How does this symbol of a “thief” apply to both the second coming of Christ to Israel (Rev. 16), and the revelation Christ gave to Paul about the Rapture (1 Thess. 5)?
End Times: Symbol of a Thief/Illustration of Opposites: Fate & Destiny
Christ/Symbol of a Thief: Israel
Revelation 16:15, 16
“Look, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments on, lest he walk naked and his shame be exposed.” They gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
Matthew 24:27, 42-44
"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.… Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord will come. But know this, that if the owner of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for in an hour when you least expect, the Son of Man is coming.”
As lightning, Christ descends to Israel—with celestial signs and the sun & moon black. And—as a thief—Christ suddenly comes upon the unsuspectingFoolish Virgins (Matthew 25) who didn’t watch, and in addition, Christ comes upon the unsuspectingungodlyarmy of the Antichrist at Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21)—and they all realize the consequences (just as an unsuspecting homeowner would suffer consequences of a thief). This is their fate.
In contrast, for the Wise Virgins who watched, the result is the opposite: “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet” (Matt. 25:10).
Thus, Christ the Deliverer (Rom. 11:25-27) bringssalvation for Israel via deliverance in battle (just like in the days of King David), and He brings atonement for the house of Jacob on the day of the Atonement, and He ushers the wise into the Millennial Kingdom/Wedding Banquet. This is their destiny.
With the “signless” nonsense out of the end-times equation…
Apply Christ’s use of a “thief” to His revelation to Paul on the mystery for the Church.
The Day of the Lord/Symbol of a Thief: 1 Thessalonians 5
"Concerning the times and the seasons [timing], brothers, you have no need that I write to you. For you know perfectly that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden [timing] destructionwill come upon them as labor upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.” This is their fate.
... "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all the sons of light and the sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep as others do. But let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we should live together with Him. So comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, just as you are doing.” This is our destiny/saved from the wrath (Rom. 5:8, 9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9) via the Rapture.
The symbol of a thief has no relevance to “signless,” but rather, this symbol projects an illustration of opposites in the end times: the unsuspecting versus the opposite, sons of light/watched.
2 Peter 1:20, 21
“But know this first of all, that no prophecy of the Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation. For no prophecy at any time was produced by the will of man, but holy men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
To equate “thief” with “signless” is precisely what Peter warned against: the human mind projecting its imagination onto the Scriptures—creating a twisted interpretation that has no relevance to the divine truth presented in the passage.
And this: Equating “thief” with “signless” creates spiritual blinders—blindsiding those who believe the “signless” dogma—leaving them unable to see the totality of the mystery Christ revealed from the Book of Acts to the Book of Revelation. That’s next.
With the Last Nail in the “Signless” Nonsense Coffin, bury it. You are now free from the "signless" snare.
The Torah to Revelation: The Mystery: The Rapture/Part 2
Now that we have completed the burial ceremony for the “signless” nonsense, we move on…
Along with “signless” … “pre-trib,” “mid-trib,” and “post-trib” will be swept into the same grave.
And to set the stage for this upcoming grave-side ceremony… a couple of questions:
1.How do these 3 man-made terms— “pre-trib,” “mid-trib,” and “post-trib” —create a deceptive facade—resulting in endless debates that continue to swirl in Christian circles?
2.How does Christ’s revelation of the mystery hand us Christ’s terminology?
Once you have Christ’s terminology, you will have no use for man’s terminology.
The man-made term, “pre-trib,” is in direct opposition to what Christ revealed from the right hand of God regarding the mystery: our “hope of glory,” when the Church is raptured to His throne, how?
In other words, how does “pre-trib” contradict Christ’s revelation of the mystery?
If you subscribe to “pre-trib,” you will be set free from the “pre-trib” snare—free to believe the totality of the mystery: Christ’s terminology.
To paint the backdrop for the burial ceremony of the “pre-trib” tragedy…
October 31 marks 508 years since Martin Luther “nailed” his 95 Theses—which is widely regarded as sparking the Protestant Reformation. And central to the Reformation was the following Scripture:
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. As it is written,“The just shall live by faith.”
1.In Romans 1:17, Paul quoted the prophet Habakkuk 2:4, why?
Then, in Romans 10, Paul expounded on faith:
Romans 10:8-13
The message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
2. In verse 13, Paul quoted the prophet Joel 2:32a— “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”—just as Peter did on Pentecost, why?
3. Is it possible Peter and Paul quoted the identical prophet & identical prophecy for the identical reason?
4. Why on Pentecost did Peter quote Joel 2:28-32a, and why did Peter and Paul both stop at Joel 2:32a? Why didn’t Peter and Paul quote Joel 2:32b?
5. Why did Christ quote Isaiah 61:1, 2a in Luke 4:18, 19? And why did Christ stop at 61:2a? Why didn’t Christ read Isaiah 61:2b?
6. Why did Christ quote Daniel in Matthew 24:15?
“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)....”
7. Is it possible Christ set a precedent during His ministry on Earth (quoting the prophets)—which He continued from the right hand of God when He gave revelation of the mystery to His disciples, directing them to quote the prophets' prophecies?
8. Why did Paul and John both quote Isaiah 25:8—in 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Revelation 7:17, respectively?
9. Why does the blood red moon “appear” in Acts 2:20 and why does the blood red moon again “appear” in Revelation 6:12: the Sixth Seal?
10. What revelation of the mystery forms the unmistakable line of demarcation: Scripture revealed before the Crucifixion, and Scripture revealed after the Resurrection, and how does this one revelation add an entirely new dimension to the disciples quoting the prophets—impacting the answers to questions 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 & 11?
11. Why did the disciples quote the prophets' prophecies from Acts to Revelation?
With answers to the above questions, you will open the door to the glorious riches of the mystery: “Christ in you, the hope of glory” from Acts to Revelation.
And we will be one step closer to the burial of man-man dogma.
The burial ceremony will be announced in advance.
The ceremony comes with an open invitation. Feel free to invite your fellow parishioners, pastors, priests, theologians, professors, and Bible study coordinators to join us in the burial of “pre-trib” alongside “signless”: fabricated terms, masquerading as the truth.
Following the burial ceremony, we’ll all wipe the dirt from our hands as we walk from the grave… thank you Paul.
Because “pre-trib” contradicts Christ’s revelation of the mystery, subscribing to “pre-trib” creates spiritual blinders—blindsiding those who believe the “pre-trib” dogma—leaving them unable to see the totality of the mystery: Christ’s terminology.
In His Resurrected Body, Christ said:
Luke 24:44
“These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me.”
Why is Christ directing His followers to look at the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
What did Christ reveal after His Resurrection and Ascension—about the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms—that was not revealed prior to the Crucifixion?
What did Paul say about the “prophetic scriptures”?
Romans 16:25-27
Now to Him who has power to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret for long ages past, but now is revealed by the prophetic Scriptures according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith, to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Why did Christ—from the right hand of God—direct His apostles to quote the prophets’ prophecies from Acts to Revelation?
If you can answer this question, you will open the door to the revelation of the mystery—from Acts to Revelation.
The great mystery revealed which is the new and everlasting covenant; Christ in you (all of you both individually and collectively), the hope of glory.
What did Christ reveal after His Resurrection and Ascension—about the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms—that was not revealed prior to the Crucifixion?
On 11/6/2025 at 6:16 AM, oldiesman said:
Jew and Gentile now to be one body in Christ.
The great mystery revealed which is the new and everlasting covenant; Christ in you (all of you both individually and collectively), the hope of glory.
Oldiesman: Yes!
And if Christ is directing us to look at the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms, then why wouldn’t we do so?
Why did Christ—from the right hand of God—direct His apostles to quote the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms—from Acts to Revelation?
Christ directed His apostles to quote the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms—from Acts to Revelation—to declare the revelation of the mystery once hidden in Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms: “Christ in you, the hope of glory,” as well as the mystery for Israel.
On Pentecost—the first day of the Church—Christ declared to the world THE MYSTERY of the Church: The creation of Christ’s Church and the future salvation of His Church at the time of the Rapture on the day of the Lord. Christ declared this by directing Peter to quote Joel, revealing the mystery of the Church once hidden in the prophet Joel: “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
As with Peter, Christ directed Paul to quote the identical prophecy given by Joel for the identical reason: to reveal our future salvation on the day of the Lord.*
Question:
In Romans, Paul revealed “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” And he did so in 6 consecutive verses—quoting the same prophet and prophecy as Peter did on Pentecost. Where did Paul reveal “Christ in you, the hope of glory” in Romans, and how does it relate to what Peter declared on Pentecost?
Paul: “Christ in you, the hope of glory”: Romans 10:8-13.
*Paul expounded on our future salvation in several letters, including 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
Why on Pentecost did Peter quote Joel 2:28-32a, and why did Peter and Paul both stop at Joel 2:32a? Why didn’t Peter and Paul quote Joel 2:32b?
Peter: “Christ in you, the hope of glory”: Acts 2:16-21.
On the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost), Christ directed Peter to quote Joel (Acts 2:16-21), and thus, Peter revealed the mystery of the Church once hidden in Joel: the creation of the Church (via the Holy Spirit being poured out/“Christ in you”), and the future salvation of the Church (“the hope of glory”) on the “day of the Lord” when Christ will save and glorify His Church—when “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Thus, Christ directed Peter to quote Joel to mark the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy: present tense (Christ in you) and future tense (salvation/our hope of glory).
God had hidden this mystery in Joel’s prophecy—and Peter was the first apostle to reveal it. Thus, all prophecies about the creation and future salvation and glorification of the Church agree with Joel and Peter—which includes Paul. Paul quoted Joel’s prophecy in Romans: “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Peter and Paul quoted the identical prophecy for the identical reason: to mark the future fulfillment of prophecy—revealing the mystery of the Church once hidden in Joel’s prophecy. Peter and Paul are in complete agreement: The future salvation of the Church will occur at the onset of the day of the Lord.
Without question, on the first day of the Church, God revealed the mystery of the Church. And He did so by supernatural means: “tongues of fire” and “speaking in tongues.” Joel’s prophecy had come to pass in the very eyes and ears of the worshippers—just as Isaiah’s prophecy (61:1, 2a) came to pass in the very eyes and ears of the Hebrew worshippers when Christ quoted Isaiah in Luke 4.
On Pentecost, Peter’s quote began with, “I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh,” and Peter ended his prophecy with, “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Who are those who call upon “the name of the Lord”?
Peter defined it right in the context: those filled with God’s “Spirit.”
Peter’s prophecy and Paul’s prophecy are in complete agreement: Those filled with the “Spirit” are the ones who will be “saved” according to Joel’s prophecy:
The sun will be turned to darknessand the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.And everyone who callson the name of the Lord will be saved. (Joel 2:31, 32)
Peter and Paul both stopped at Joel 2:32a because Joel 2:32b applied not to the mystery for the Church, but rather, the mystery for Israel.
If you don’t yet understand why “pre-trib” needs to be buried… you will.
Thank you Revvel. The mystery for Israel IS the mystery for the church it's one and the same; for the church is comprised of former Jews and Gentiles who now are members of the body of Christ.
True, spiritual Israel is understood and described in the following key scriptures with my commentary:
(Ai assisted)
Romans 9-11
Romans 9:6-8: Paul states, "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel". This passage distinguishes between ethnic Israel and the "true" or spiritual Israel, comprised of those who have faith. He clarifies that "the children of the promise who believe in Christ are counted as offspring".
Romans 11:17–24: Paul uses the metaphor of anolive treeto explain the relationship. The cultivated olive tree represents the people of God (true Israel). Unbelieving natural branches (Christ-rejecting Jews) were broken off, and wild olive branches (Gentile believers in Christ) were grafted in. The tree itself remains the same, emphasizing the continuity of God's people across the Old and New Testaments.
Romans 11:25-26: Paul speaks of a future time when "all Israel will be saved," which many understand as the final salvation and inclusion of a large number of ethnic Jews who believe in Christ into the one people of God (the church).
Galatians
Galatians 3:7, 29: Paul explicitly states that "it is those of faith in Christ who are the sons of Abraham". He later concludes, "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise". This indicates that the promises made to Israel's patriarch, Abraham, are now inherited by all believers in Christ, regardless of their ethnic background. Consequently, those who do not believe in Christ, including former Israel, are broken off.
Galatians 6:16: Paul offers a benediction "upon theIsrael of God". While debated, many scholars interpret this phrase as referring to the true, spiritual people of God, the church, made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ. It still is debated because (I believe) some Jews think they can get saved without Jesus. I believe our duty is to convince these folks that they are wrong.
1 Peter
1 Peter 2:9-10: Peter applies titles and descriptions once used exclusively for Old Testament Israel to the New Testament church (which included many Gentiles). He calls them "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession". These terms directly echo God's description of Israel in Exodus 19:5-6, indicating that the church now fulfills Israel's role as God's special people on earth -- God's Chosen People.In other words, God's Chosen People are exclusively believers in Jesus.
Other Passages
Ephesians 2:11-22: Paul emphasizes that Gentiles, who were once "separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise," have now been brought near to God. Christ has broken down the "dividing wall" between Jews and Gentiles, creating in himself"one new man in place of the two"(the church) and making them "fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God".
Philippians 3:3: Paul refers to believers in Christ (who worship by the Spirit of God) as the "true circumcision," a term that was the definitive physical mark of Old Testament Israel.
Recommended Posts
oldiesman
Hi Revvel,
After being exposed to Preterism and believing a good amount of it, I'm now uncertain about "the Rapture" a.k.a. "Gathering Together" as taught by TWI. It's not the actual event but more of the "mind picture" we all know and "timeline" that I question now. Actually I don't fully believe the preterist version either but it's got me wondering. In any case, your research is worth taking a look and thank you!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
Thank you again Oldiesman. I appreciate your thoughtful & kind comments.
Stay tuned...
To understand “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (once hidden in the Law and revealed in the Book of Revelation) is to understand our present and future (the Rapture/gathered before His heavenly Throne). And it is to understand the content and order of end-time events, which has overlapping numeric chronologies: the Law & Revelation, and this pulls together the entire Bible.
Only a divine Creator could have crafted such a magnificent plan. Before posting on this, there are 3 more questions to complete the "stage."
I’m looking to turn your thoughts to the mystery of God via questions.
1 Cor. 15:51-55 & Revelation 7:9-17
1. Paul and John both quoted Isaiah 25:8 in their respective revelations, why?
Romans 16:25-27
Paul said:
“Now to Him who has power to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret for long ages past, but now is revealed by the prophetic Scriptures according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith, to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.”
In Romans, Paul revealed “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” And he did so in 6 consecutive verses—quoting the same prophet and prophecy as Peter did on Pentecost.
2. Where did Paul reveal “Christ in you, the hope of glory” in Romans, and how does it relate to what Peter declared on Pentecost?
1 Cor. 2:7, 8
Paul said:
“We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age knew it. For had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
3. What was the mystery that Christ revealed to Paul in 1 Corinthians, and how does it reveal “Christ in you, the hope of glory” once hidden in the Law?
We now have 7 Bible questions. If you don’t know the answers to the above questions, you deserve to know.
If you know the answers to the above questions, jump in.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
How many of us have heard the following man-made terms: “pre-trib,” “mid-trib,” and “post-trib”?
Let me ask:
What’s the probability…
The Law and the Book of Revelation dismantle this man-made structure — “pre-trib,” “mid-trib,” and “post-trib” — and sweep the wreckage into the theological garbage can?
What’s the probability…
The precedents God gave us through Moses and Christ enable us to see the mystery from Acts to the Book of Revelation?
What’s the probability…
With God's precedents, we have biblical research tools that work 100% of the time, no exceptions, and thus, we have Christ and the Law on our side?
Next:
1. How did Christ use the symbol of a “thief”?
2. How is it identical to Paul’s use of a “thief”—which has nothing to do with “signless”?
3. What are the celestial and earthly signs that mark the onset of the Day of the Lord & the Rapture—and what does it have to do with the symbol of a “thief”?
And this:
4. Why does the Rapture line up with the fifth holy day, Rosh Hashanah/The Feast of Trumpets?
Why? It’s the Law.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
1. How did Christ use the symbol of a “thief”?
Part 1
Christ: Coming as “a Thief”/Second Coming to Israel
“Look, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments on, lest he walk naked and his shame be exposed.” They gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Armageddon. (Rev. 16:15, 16)
Did Christ use the symbol of a “thief” to prophesy of a “signless” event?
Is the battle of Armageddon a “signless” event?
No, of course not.
If Christ didn’t use the symbol of a “thief” to mean “signless,” then what right does anyone in His kingdom have to claim the symbol of a “thief” means “signless”?
Zero.
Equating “thief” with “signless” is without scriptural justification.
Next, Part 2: Why did Christ use the symbol of a “thief”?
1. What is the symbol—the precedent—in the Gospels that gives the visual effect of Christ coming as a “thief” to Israel/Armageddon, and where did Christ reveal how the symbol of a “thief” is relevant to end times, and how does this all translate to the revelation of the mystery for the Church that Christ gave to Paul in 1 Thess. 5?
In other words, if we know what Christ has to say about the symbol of a “thief,” then we can understand Christ’s revelation to Paul.
2. What are the 2 incorrect assumptions extracted from 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2, which yield this faulty conclusion: The Rapture is “signless” because Christ is coming as a “thief”?
If you don’t know the answers to the above questions, you deserve to know the answers.
If you already know the answers, jump in.
Peace.
revvel
Edited by revvelLink to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
Before addressing the 2 questions...
1. What is the symbol—the precedent—in the Gospels that gives the visual effect of Christ coming as a “thief” to Israel/Armageddon, and where did Christ reveal how the symbol of a “thief” is relevant to end times, and how does this all translate to the revelation of the mystery for the Church that Christ gave to Paul in 1 Thess. 5?
2. What are the 2 incorrect assumptions extracted from 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2, which yield this faulty conclusion: The Rapture is “signless” because Christ is coming as a “thief”?
If you still believe in a “signless” Rapture, you will be set free from this “signless” snare… And you will be free to believe the revelation of the mystery, our hope of glory, as Christ revealed to Peter, Paul, and John: the Rapture will occur at the onset of the Day of the Lord, accompanied by dramatic celestial and earthy signs—prior to the wrath.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
What are the 2 incorrect assumptions extracted from 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2, which yield this faulty conclusion: The Rapture is “signless” because Christ is coming as a “thief”?
The Day of the Lord: 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2
“Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
First Incorrect Assumption: The Rapture is “signless” because Paul used the symbol of a “thief in the night.”
Did Paul say,
Now, brothers and sisters, about signs we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night?
No, of course not.
What exactly did Paul say?
“Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
The figure of speech— “a thief in the night” —refers right back to the immediate context: “times and dates”—not the lack of signs.
The first incorrect assumption is to equate “thief in the night” with a lack of signs. There is no scriptural justification in the immediate context to support this position—and this includes verse 3.
1 Thessalonians 5:3: “Sudden”
“When they say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.”
“Times and dates” and “sudden” refer to timing—not signs.
The Day of the Lord: 1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2
Second Incorrect Assumption: “Christ” is coming as a “thief” at the time of the Rapture.
This is simply a gross misreading/interpretation of the text.
Did Paul say,
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that Christ will come like a thief in the night.
No, of course not.
What exactly did Paul say?
“Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
Is the “Day of the Lord” “signless”?
No, of course not. It’s the complete opposite.
Peter: The Day of the Lord: Acts 2:19, 20/Mystery: Joel 2:30, 31
“And I will show wonders in heaven above and signs on the earth below: blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and glorious day of the Lord comes.”
*Paul—in Romans 10—quoted Joel, as did Peter in Acts 2, why? Answer this, and you will eliminate any lingering thoughts that Paul prophesied of a “signless” event.
John: The Day of the Lord/Wrath: Revelation 6:12-17
“I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the rich men and the commanding officers and the strong and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?'”
"Signless"?
Zephaniah 1:14, 15: “The great day of the Lord” = the “day of wrath.”
Thief in the Night: There is no scriptural justification in the immediate context to support equating “the day of the Lord” and “thief” with “signless.” And there is no scriptural justification in the remote context: Christ’s precedent and use of a “thief.”
“Signless” is worthless. Deception.
Next:
Christ: The Precedent: the symbol of a “thief” and its visual representation.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
The Symbol: “Thief”
If we want to understand Christ’s revelation to Paul about the symbol of a “thief” ...
We don’t have to be in subjection to incorrect assumptions, but rather, look to the precedents: Christ… and the OT prophets He drew upon.
1. What is the symbol—the precedent—that Christ handed us in the Gospels that gives the visual effect of His coming as a “thief” to Israel?
2. Who were prophets that Christ drew upon when He prophesied of His second coming to Israel, and how do their prophecies set the stage for Christ’s use of a “thief”?
Today is Yom (Day) Kippur (Atonement)
Christ revealed the mystery once hidden in this holy day to Paul (Rom. 11:25-27). Yom Kippur foreshadows what will come to pass at the second coming of Christ to Israel: salvation for Israel & atonement for the house of Jacob. (See the other thread: The Parable of the 10 Virgins.)
And in the Book of Revelation, Christ Himself issued a prophecy of His second coming to Israel:
Revelation 16:15, 16
“Look, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments on, lest he walk naked and his shame be exposed.” They gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
Looking at this prophecy, and looking back at the Gospels… What is the symbol—the precedent—that gives the visual effect of Christ coming as a “thief”?
“Lightning.”
In Matthew, Christ issued a prophecy of His second coming to Israel (which draws upon Old Testament prophecies):
Matthew 24:27-31
“For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, ‘the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; [Joel 3:15, 16: “Zion”/“Jerusalem”/“children of Israel”] the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet [Isaiah 27:12, 13/“sons of Israel”], and they shall gather His elect from the four winds [Ezekiel 37:9-14/“whole house of Israel”] from one end of the heavens to the other.”
Precedent: Symbol of a thief: “Lightning”
Christ, as a “thief,” as “lightning,” suddenly appears with celestial signs as He descends to the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4).
The root/base word of “lightning” means “to flash as lightning.”
What is “signless” about Christ’s revelation/precedent of a “thief”?
Nothing.
Additional Old Testament Precedents
Malachi 3:1-4: Second Coming to Israel: “Suddenly”
“And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight. He is coming, says the Lord of Hosts. But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them like gold and silver, and they will present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasant to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.”
Isaiah 66:14-16: Second Coming to Israel: “With Fire/like a Whirlwind”
“Then you shall see this, and your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb; and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward His servants, and His indignation toward His enemies. For the Lord shall come with fire and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword on all flesh, the Lord shall execute judgment; and the slain of the Lord shall be many.”
“Signless”? Valid Precedent? Nope. Confused Nonsense.
"Signless" is in direct contradiction to the witness of the prophets, Christ, and the apostles.
Next:
1. How did Christ connect the symbol of a “thief” with end times?
2. How does this symbol of a “thief” apply to the revelation Christ gave to Paul about the Rapture in 1 Thess. 5 when the day of the Lord breaks upon the planet?
“Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
The Last Nail in the “Signless” Nonsense Coffin.
1. How did Christ connect the symbol of a “thief” with end times?
2. How does this symbol of a “thief” apply to both the second coming of Christ to Israel (Rev. 16), and the revelation Christ gave to Paul about the Rapture (1 Thess. 5)?
End Times: Symbol of a Thief/Illustration of Opposites: Fate & Destiny
Christ/Symbol of a Thief: Israel
Revelation 16:15, 16
“Look, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments on, lest he walk naked and his shame be exposed.” They gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
Matthew 24:27, 42-44
"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.… Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord will come. But know this, that if the owner of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for in an hour when you least expect, the Son of Man is coming.”
As lightning, Christ descends to Israel—with celestial signs and the sun & moon black. And—as a thief—Christ suddenly comes upon the unsuspecting Foolish Virgins (Matthew 25) who didn’t watch, and in addition, Christ comes upon the unsuspecting ungodly army of the Antichrist at Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21)—and they all realize the consequences (just as an unsuspecting homeowner would suffer consequences of a thief). This is their fate.
In contrast, for the Wise Virgins who watched, the result is the opposite: “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet” (Matt. 25:10).
Thus, Christ the Deliverer (Rom. 11:25-27) brings salvation for Israel via deliverance in battle (just like in the days of King David), and He brings atonement for the house of Jacob on the day of the Atonement, and He ushers the wise into the Millennial Kingdom/Wedding Banquet. This is their destiny.
"Thief" = "Signless"? Modern-day biblical tragedy.
With the “signless” nonsense out of the end-times equation…
Apply Christ’s use of a “thief” to His revelation to Paul on the mystery for the Church.
The Day of the Lord/Symbol of a Thief: 1 Thessalonians 5
"Concerning the times and the seasons [timing], brothers, you have no need that I write to you. For you know perfectly that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden [timing] destruction will come upon them as labor upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.” This is their fate.
... "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all the sons of light and the sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep as others do. But let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we should live together with Him. So comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, just as you are doing.” This is our destiny/saved from the wrath (Rom. 5:8, 9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9) via the Rapture.
The symbol of a thief has no relevance to “signless,” but rather, this symbol projects an illustration of opposites in the end times: the unsuspecting versus the opposite, sons of light/watched.
2 Peter 1:20, 21
“But know this first of all, that no prophecy of the Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation. For no prophecy at any time was produced by the will of man, but holy men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
To equate “thief” with “signless” is precisely what Peter warned against: the human mind projecting its imagination onto the Scriptures—creating a twisted interpretation that has no relevance to the divine truth presented in the passage.
And this: Equating “thief” with “signless” creates spiritual blinders—blindsiding those who believe the “signless” dogma—leaving them unable to see the totality of the mystery Christ revealed from the Book of Acts to the Book of Revelation. That’s next.
With the Last Nail in the “Signless” Nonsense Coffin, bury it. You are now free from the "signless" snare.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
The Torah to Revelation: The Mystery: The Rapture/Part 2
Now that we have completed the burial ceremony for the “signless” nonsense, we move on…
Along with “signless” … “pre-trib,” “mid-trib,” and “post-trib” will be swept into the same grave.
And to set the stage for this upcoming grave-side ceremony… a couple of questions:
1. How do these 3 man-made terms— “pre-trib,” “mid-trib,” and “post-trib” —create a deceptive facade—resulting in endless debates that continue to swirl in Christian circles?
2. How does Christ’s revelation of the mystery hand us Christ’s terminology?
Once you have Christ’s terminology, you will have no use for man’s terminology.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
The man-made term, “pre-trib,” is in direct opposition to what Christ revealed from the right hand of God regarding the mystery: our “hope of glory,” when the Church is raptured to His throne, how?
In other words, how does “pre-trib” contradict Christ’s revelation of the mystery?
If you subscribe to “pre-trib,” you will be set free from the “pre-trib” snare—free to believe the totality of the mystery: Christ’s terminology.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
To paint the backdrop for the burial ceremony of the “pre-trib” tragedy…
October 31 marks 508 years since Martin Luther “nailed” his 95 Theses—which is widely regarded as sparking the Protestant Reformation. And central to the Reformation was the following Scripture:
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. As it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
1.In Romans 1:17, Paul quoted the prophet Habakkuk 2:4, why?
Then, in Romans 10, Paul expounded on faith:
Romans 10:8-13
The message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
2. In verse 13, Paul quoted the prophet Joel 2:32a— “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”—just as Peter did on Pentecost, why?
3. Is it possible Peter and Paul quoted the identical prophet & identical prophecy for the identical reason?
4. Why on Pentecost did Peter quote Joel 2:28-32a, and why did Peter and Paul both stop at Joel 2:32a? Why didn’t Peter and Paul quote Joel 2:32b?
5. Why did Christ quote Isaiah 61:1, 2a in Luke 4:18, 19? And why did Christ stop at 61:2a? Why didn’t Christ read Isaiah 61:2b?
6. Why did Christ quote Daniel in Matthew 24:15?
“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)....”
7. Is it possible Christ set a precedent during His ministry on Earth (quoting the prophets)—which He continued from the right hand of God when He gave revelation of the mystery to His disciples, directing them to quote the prophets' prophecies?
8. Why did Paul and John both quote Isaiah 25:8—in 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Revelation 7:17, respectively?
9. Why does the blood red moon “appear” in Acts 2:20 and why does the blood red moon again “appear” in Revelation 6:12: the Sixth Seal?
10. What revelation of the mystery forms the unmistakable line of demarcation: Scripture revealed before the Crucifixion, and Scripture revealed after the Resurrection, and how does this one revelation add an entirely new dimension to the disciples quoting the prophets—impacting the answers to questions 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 & 11?
11. Why did the disciples quote the prophets' prophecies from Acts to Revelation?
With answers to the above questions, you will open the door to the glorious riches of the mystery: “Christ in you, the hope of glory” from Acts to Revelation.
And we will be one step closer to the burial of man-man dogma.
The burial ceremony will be announced in advance.
The ceremony comes with an open invitation. Feel free to invite your fellow parishioners, pastors, priests, theologians, professors, and Bible study coordinators to join us in the burial of “pre-trib” alongside “signless”: fabricated terms, masquerading as the truth.
Following the burial ceremony, we’ll all wipe the dirt from our hands as we walk from the grave… thank you Paul.
Peace.
revvel
Edited by revvelLink to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
Because “pre-trib” contradicts Christ’s revelation of the mystery, subscribing to “pre-trib” creates spiritual blinders—blindsiding those who believe the “pre-trib” dogma—leaving them unable to see the totality of the mystery: Christ’s terminology.
In His Resurrected Body, Christ said:
Luke 24:44
“These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me.”
Why is Christ directing His followers to look at the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
What did Christ reveal after His Resurrection and Ascension—about the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms—that was not revealed prior to the Crucifixion?
What did Paul say about the “prophetic scriptures”?
Romans 16:25-27
Now to Him who has power to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret for long ages past, but now is revealed by the prophetic Scriptures according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith, to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Why did Christ—from the right hand of God—direct His apostles to quote the prophets’ prophecies from Acts to Revelation?
If you can answer this question, you will open the door to the revelation of the mystery—from Acts to Revelation.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Jew and Gentile now to be one body in Christ.
The great mystery revealed which is the new and everlasting covenant; Christ in you (all of you both individually and collectively), the hope of glory.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
revvel
What did Christ reveal after His Resurrection and Ascension—about the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms—that was not revealed prior to the Crucifixion?
Oldiesman: Yes!
And if Christ is directing us to look at the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms, then why wouldn’t we do so?
Why did Christ—from the right hand of God—direct His apostles to quote the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms—from Acts to Revelation?
Christ directed His apostles to quote the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms—from Acts to Revelation—to declare the revelation of the mystery once hidden in Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms: “Christ in you, the hope of glory,” as well as the mystery for Israel.
On Pentecost—the first day of the Church—Christ declared to the world THE MYSTERY of the Church: The creation of Christ’s Church and the future salvation of His Church at the time of the Rapture on the day of the Lord. Christ declared this by directing Peter to quote Joel, revealing the mystery of the Church once hidden in the prophet Joel: “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
As with Peter, Christ directed Paul to quote the identical prophecy given by Joel for the identical reason: to reveal our future salvation on the day of the Lord.*
Question:
In Romans, Paul revealed “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” And he did so in 6 consecutive verses—quoting the same prophet and prophecy as Peter did on Pentecost. Where did Paul reveal “Christ in you, the hope of glory” in Romans, and how does it relate to what Peter declared on Pentecost?
Paul: “Christ in you, the hope of glory”: Romans 10:8-13.
*Paul expounded on our future salvation in several letters, including 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
Why on Pentecost did Peter quote Joel 2:28-32a, and why did Peter and Paul both stop at Joel 2:32a? Why didn’t Peter and Paul quote Joel 2:32b?
Peter: “Christ in you, the hope of glory”: Acts 2:16-21.
On the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost), Christ directed Peter to quote Joel (Acts 2:16-21), and thus, Peter revealed the mystery of the Church once hidden in Joel: the creation of the Church (via the Holy Spirit being poured out/“Christ in you”), and the future salvation of the Church (“the hope of glory”) on the “day of the Lord” when Christ will save and glorify His Church—when “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Thus, Christ directed Peter to quote Joel to mark the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy: present tense (Christ in you) and future tense (salvation/our hope of glory).
God had hidden this mystery in Joel’s prophecy—and Peter was the first apostle to reveal it. Thus, all prophecies about the creation and future salvation and glorification of the Church agree with Joel and Peter—which includes Paul. Paul quoted Joel’s prophecy in Romans: “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Peter and Paul quoted the identical prophecy for the identical reason: to mark the future fulfillment of prophecy—revealing the mystery of the Church once hidden in Joel’s prophecy. Peter and Paul are in complete agreement: The future salvation of the Church will occur at the onset of the day of the Lord.
Without question, on the first day of the Church, God revealed the mystery of the Church. And He did so by supernatural means: “tongues of fire” and “speaking in tongues.” Joel’s prophecy had come to pass in the very eyes and ears of the worshippers—just as Isaiah’s prophecy (61:1, 2a) came to pass in the very eyes and ears of the Hebrew worshippers when Christ quoted Isaiah in Luke 4.
On Pentecost, Peter’s quote began with, “I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh,” and Peter ended his prophecy with, “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Who are those who call upon “the name of the Lord”?
Peter defined it right in the context: those filled with God’s “Spirit.”
Peter’s prophecy and Paul’s prophecy are in complete agreement: Those filled with the “Spirit” are the ones who will be “saved” according to Joel’s prophecy:
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Joel 2:31, 32)
Peter and Paul both stopped at Joel 2:32a because Joel 2:32b applied not to the mystery for the Church, but rather, the mystery for Israel.
If you don’t yet understand why “pre-trib” needs to be buried… you will.
Peace.
revvel
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Thank you Revvel. The mystery for Israel IS the mystery for the church it's one and the same; for the church is comprised of former Jews and Gentiles who now are members of the body of Christ.
True, spiritual Israel is understood and described in the following key scriptures with my commentary:
(Ai assisted)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.