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My splinter group experience as I've shared it here.

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JeffSjo    44

I'm going to go back over the things that I've shared about my little splinter group in the last year-plus since I've come to the greasespot. I hope my quoting of things that I've said before makes sense.

Well, here goes.

One thing I remembered hearing from someone about the old days was a habit of blaming the one being troubled by a devil spirit for the trouble they were in. I don't know for sure if this was a widespread view or the personal view of the one I heard talking about it but it didn't sound like there was any love in his telling of it, even rejoicing in the fact that someone was supposedly harrassed by one during a twig fellowship and that eventually led to that person leaving the fellowship of believers. The guy telling it had a smirk on his face as if the simple telling of the tale made him somebody. All I could wonder was why wasn't the one with the trouble delivered.

I was a part of a fellowship(after my days with TWI) that blamed me for two people that were troubled in such a fashion and one of them was my wife. I look back at the situation and see that what was really broken was the love and trust that should have existed in the fellowship to seek God's answer to the problem. The real problem was that there was no good fellowship between leadership and myself. Part of that was the result of me constantly(more or less) calling them on bad biblical workmanship and false prophesies. The other part was the result of them holding certain accusations against me that they never proved or confronted me with; after a few years of that, fellowship is pretty strained in a small group. I could not help my wife because there was pretty much no trust between us, and the situation between me and leadership was such that it pulled me and my wife apart. They never even told me what my wife said was going on with her when I was asleep. I am quite certain that I could have been part of the solution if my wife would have trusted me in almost any sense. After all, even Jesus Christ couldn't do much in his own hometown, and I'm pretty sure their unbelief amazed him.

I guess my experience shows me that when there is not a good working fellowship in the church and someone in authority chooses to blame instead of seeking deliverace it can get pretty ugly. Nobody gets it right in this field without walking with God and there are a lot of different ways for it to go wrong.

Thre was a lot more going on than what I'm able to post here. Some of the issues with my wife go all the way back to 1987 when we were dating, and trouble beteen leadership and me go back to the early 90"s when I was a young believer with some big problems. I hope what I've shared is helpful. Maybe it's good for me to be able to dicuss it. There don't seem to be too many places where this kind of thing can be discussed in a loving and helpful manner.

I can say with certainty that I know how it feels to be "tagged" with a false accusation. For me the biggest loss seems to be the loss to the whole fellowship when one person who has something to give is taken out. I mean we're one body, right. The thief cometh to steal..... If anybody is taken out and cannt give where he has grace to give then the loss is not just to the individual, but to the whole church.

I wish I knew how to place quotes in here because a lot of them concerning "personal attacks" as being misguiding (often deliberatly) and as a tactic to put someone down in order to be "lifted up" I can relate to. When I was younger I related to this as "rap culture." Now I'm somewhat ashamed of refering to what passes as loving Christain discourse as rap culture. Rap culture is what it is, it doesn't pretend to be something it's not.

If an accusation is true, It still has to be handled with with good intentions for it to even come close to profitable Christain discourse. Even with good intentions it may end up being a complete flop in terms of " Does it succeed at ministering to God's people". Without a lot of care in every aspect it usually ends up as a flop in terms of helping people.

Concerning the events at TWI in the old days, I'm 100% convinced that there was bigtime problems that ruined the growth of the ministering of God's word. Many good people were hurt and their lives were damaged badly.

In my case this happened after my days with TWI. I can't name names, but what basically happened was the leader of this group decided that instead of helping people stand on their own two feet he would only be interested in making people his "beeotches". This happened time and time again, I can't ever think of an instance in the later years where he would help anyone unless they were either completly submissive or were a real prospect of becoming one of his beeotches. Under these circumstances the integrity of God's word was the first casualty. If I questioned a teaching or a prophecy (Like the time he told people we would be attacked by the locals or the government) I became the enemy and my concerns were considered "personal attacks". I would be willing to be guilty of being a slanderer if it meant that the fellowship of believers were not complety mislead. The best I know to judge is that the integrity of God's word is the only good standard. And let me say that being right in the middle of a tough situation like that where you see people face to face, day in and day out (He led the fellowship into a comunal lifestyle) is exceedingly challenging.

I am also convinced (after years of watching him) that he would like nothing better than to make anyone left over from TWI he can find his beeotch. A lot of what he's practiced and taught ( especially the younger ones) I believe is only to convince people who remember the best of TWI that he's a man of God. If only he had been capable of love instead of selfish ambition. Just ask people like me who's only sin is questioning bad biblical workmanship or false prophecies (like saying Jesus Christ will return in 2001, and many others)

So in general I'm a little wary of people who try to build their ministries on what was TWI. Right now things don't look healthy at TWI, but there are people who would know better than me.

What I am looking for is the best of TWI. There are many things that I heard in the old days that I'm certain was the grace of God, and call me what you will but I don't plan on changing my mind anytime soon. The best way I know to look at it is to compare it to the reign of Solomon. Solomon built the temple, but later became full of himself and sinned against God. God still fellowshiped with him after he sinned too, even if only to let him know that HE wasn't happy and what HE'D do about it. Easy word's to say, but pretty darn hard things to consider. Especially when we can attach real live people to it.

I'm certain God's word lives. Often times it won't be the way we hoped or wanted it to be.

The people I used to deal with were far more effective at destroying my life for dubious reasons than they were at proving things that were going on in them.

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JeffSjo    44

These are some of my newer posts. I decided it was time to name names.

I am sooo very glad for you Dave that you walked that day.

Those things started bad and ended up worse As part of coming out of Momentus I confronted V.B. about bringing us into a movement that freely mixed the Bible and New Age mind games. And I told him that momentus style fellowship led to many things that were bad through the misconception that everything that came out of a person's mouth was of God, no matter how nasty.

Many of those prophecies of Pharis did not end up coming true, even though they were very substantial. When I shared mine with my Grandfather along with my then wife, all he said was, "Jeff, you have to be careful with prophecies, they don't all come from God." or something like that. And many did not come true.

Four years ago, V.B. was letting folks call him "The Word in th Flesh."

It went from bad to incredibly worse.

Wasn't that location Rush City? I might have been there, but they ran more than one of those meetings in those days.

Barnard was just as dishonest and dishonrable about the sources for the things that he learned from "God" as Wierwille was FYI.

Pharis was going to some length to explain why it was o.k. to do something that Paul said not to do!? It figures, but I don't remember that.

It seems to me, looking back on it, that Jalvis was not really in a good place to be critiquing TWI.

I'm still very glad for you that you walked away that day.

I thought that that latin meant,"I came, I saw, I conquered." Or am I missing something there Dave? :)

(edited for spelling and grammar)

Among the last things that I heard from River Road Fellowship under Barnard's lead was:

1. The Lord was going to come back in 2005.

2. Barnard admitted several times in front of the whole church that, "If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison." Of course in classic "cult of personality" style most just took this to mean that Barnard was brave and not to mean that he was twisted and paranoid.

3. It was o.k. for several of the young and unattached girls to vow vows of celibate bridehood to Barnard. One of them came to Twig and said verbatim, "I'm married to the Christ in Victor." IMO he was bitter at his real wife. For most of the women including my ex-wife it was normal to express envy (in a kind manner I suppose) towards Victor's ten maidens.


4. He was having his most trusted followers working on a system of protecting him against the inevitable physical threats to his life that he faced constantly. When they kicked me out I was plenty angry too, but I never threatened him beyond saying that I would kick his azz (figuratively speaking) and saying that I would literally mock him, and I said it to his face.

(edited for grammar)

(added in editing)

Yeah, some "haven" for ex-twiers. If they want to go from the frying pan to the fire I suppose.

Earlier in this chapter the scriptures record that the Pharisees were already scheming on how they might destroy Him. It is sad to me that TWI leadership has sought to destroy people that were trying to help them in the same manner. Their have been many accounts here of people who tried to confront TWI in the old days. And by all accounts here TWI has only gotten much worse since the eighties which was my time of association with TWI.

One thing about this record that I'm reminded of is that it was not academic. The Lord himself was working and people were taking sides as a result. I believe that our judgment will be as the Lord has said in these verses. So it would behoove any of us to think about our own words. This is much better IMO than any pointing at other folks outside of what is going on right here and now.

It is evident to me that all of us are capable of pointing some imaginary folks out there somewhere who've rejected the Lord. But what about the things that are going on right here and right now? Are not we taking sides and are not some thinking that they are fighting "real devils" even now? Do they even know what they are rejecting before they resort to every nasty trick in the book to put another down?

In my former splinter group they rejected every chance that I gave them to stop fighting the devil that they percieved and stand corrected on their bogus doctrines. They have foolishly decided that it is o.k. to follow a man who has allowed ten young women to in one of the girl's own words to be "married to the christ in Victor." They have decided to follow a man who before they kicked me out had made several false prophecies concerning the Lord's return. Most all of them has given everything in their own life over to a man who IMO really fears and despises them. But in their mind, to not listen to me was successfully fighting the devil. pffhhh!

But as to the times and places of the lord's eventual judgment of us all, I believe it is most important to let him do it. He will have the timing right, and his disciples always seemed to get it wrong. When we judge people as coming up short we run the risk of becoming no better than the Pharisees. They sat in Moses' seat, but still managed it seems to get harsh reality from the Lord himself.

Why the next thing you know we have developed some kind of bunker mentality and think that the whole world of unbelievers are damned and we are the only ones. Why we might even start calling the wrong people devils. we might even destroy the lives of those whop are only trying to help. WE MIGHT EVEN END UP BEING JUDGED AS WE JUDGE.....IT IS WRITTEN.

(edited for spelling)

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JeffSjo    44

Now, back to some older posts.

The group that kicked me out after removing my wife and child from my life, just before the elder that I worked for fired me has tried real hard to cover their tracks.

I say that the leader spit on people twice that I know of.

I say he said the words "If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be in prison" three times in the weeks preceding my expungment, and he said it before the whole church.

I say that about two months after 9-11 he said that we would be attacked by the locals or the government and if we wanted to stand with him on God's Word we'd better be prepared to die.

Two weeks before he kicked me out he went into hiding, only carefully groomed people knew where he was at any given time, and they were taught not to let on if they knew or did not know.

One week before he kicked me out he gave a completely bogus teaching that supposedly proved that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews.


In the few years since this all happened I've shared several events with the local folks that weren't slander, I really felt that the locals needed to know exactly what was going on behind that innocent looking and very deliberate public face.


I suspect they've said thing behind my back too because that's how they operated inside the church.

The methods they used were bullying, backbiting, isolation from others by whatever lie or half truth worked, and threats of loosing family. Those are just a few of their actions.

To a biblical workman I can point out numerous dishonesties on their part, deliberate lies that people were bullied to believing.

Once I was considered a bad person for telling a friend of mine that I thought he made a good decision to not give his retarded child up for adoption. The problem was that the leader tried to get my friend to give up his son. Of course I was further isolated and marginalised for that. I've never seen my friend since.

My opinion of that leader is that in spite of his carefully groomed public apearance ,and manner thats extremely convincing is that he's a dishonest glory hound that will destroy anyone he can if it advances his influence.

I don't believe honesty or integrity is part of his character. I believe he's driven by selfish ambition.

He can make himself seem like a M.O.G. and be very convincing though, so he's extremely dangerous.

This last sunday we had my grandfather's funeral.

I'm bound to be thankful for him for the rest of my life. I learned great things from him and I have no doubt that I would be a better man if I could only have spent more time with him.

When we were in momentous and had been exposed to the false prophet movement I read him one of the prophecies that were given to my wife and I. With peace and confidence he said "Jeff, you've gotta watch out for prophecies, they don't all come from God." After considering the matter I confronted the one who was in charge in our little group about momentous doctrine and it led to us leaving momentus fellowship.

The group that I was with never even said thak you, (spiritual dishonesty) and my ex-wife can still be mad till today when the heart for the scripture that I first learned from my grandfather is rememberred by me as often having a part in correcting the spiritually dishonest man that I'm refering to.

Many times I brought up some doctrine I believed and grandpa looked at the Word and simply said, "Jeff, that's not what it says." He did it with love and authority and in truth was the only man living that I think of and can then comprehend the fear of the Lord.

I'm gonna mis him a lot. (sob)

Yeah, I get it Rascal.

You might think that I'm nucking futs, but I believe God called me to a ministry that did everything in their ability to break my life and my heart. At least I'm consistent.

I read the bible and I see a lot of evil things done, and a lot of evil things prophecied about by the apostle Paul as long ago as the first century in the epistles too.

If I didn't believe that the Lord would bring true justice some day, I'd already be dead I think.

(Added in editing)

I'm so sorry about your family Rascal, I can't say it enough it seems.

Stealing, killing, and destroying is easy to read and real hard to see up close.

In everything you share about it seems that there is leadership that is accountable. I believe the Lord will hold them accountable. Paul seemed to think it was a big deal that there was no blood on his hands, it won't go well for those with blood on their hands. It won't matter how well they cover it up right now either; the Lord will uncover, expose and hold accountable.

Dear Rascal,

O.K., I get it now about the brothers and sisters, thanks for clearing that up for me.

When I was in the middle of a different type of perverting the truth in that small splinter group I talk about, It was everything I could handle to fight for the scriptures to be applied to the situations that came up in the span of years. The only thing I can say for sure about being correct is that my conscience is clear, I dare not boast about being right, but I always am willing to share so others can judge for themselves.

Coming from my own experience, I have no trouble imagining TWI starting well and then over time being corrupt. Between sin being something that anyone can fall into and biblical cowardace, it eventually becomes actively seeking to destroy those who speak from a good heart and a clear conscience. Covering up the sin mixed with becoming experts at the art of managing public perception can fool anyone.

In my life it is very clear that it started good and became bad. (IN the splinter group) I have no problem thinking the same of TWI, but I'm still looking at it.

No Rascal, I'm not mad at you. I'm concerned about the P----d at God part of what's on your heart, but I"ve been there too.

(added in editing)

In my little splinter group I was around from the beginning. In TWI I was not around from the beginning. It could be a mistake to assume it went down the same way without all the facts. But it's not hard for me to think it could have went down the same way, starting good and turning bad. There is an awful lot of that in the bible. It's a common pattern for men.

Right now What I think is that it started good and turned out bad.


Remember years of abuse by a selfishly ambitious minister?

Remember how it felt to have my wife and child moved out of my house behind my back?

Remember that they then moved her in behind my back again, then tried to move her out behind my back again, just to see if I'd break?

Remember being kicked out of that group in spite of not being guilty of sin worthy of being kicked out?

Remember how it felt to have one of these supposed ministers verbally assault me by repeatedly telling me to f--- my recently deceased grandmother in front of my wife?

Remember years of being put down whether I was right or wrong (I was often correct) because one man desires the preeminence?

Remember that it now appears that many children will learn to be the same kind of liar and spin-doctor as their corrupt teacher?

Remember a lot of the scummy things they did to me and others?




This is some of what I've percieved in my life in the last several years.

In my small splinter group that left me in a position to have a lot of compassion on the one that Ham speaks of I've seen a few bad things.

I've seen a man willing to take credit for everything good and portay everyone else as bad simply to mantain total and complete control.

I've seen people who were absolutely willing to set people up to trip over their own shortcomings when they might have helped them to stand instead.

I saw a ministry that was completely willng to strip everything of value away from a person and leave them broke, broken hearted, and completely alone. Then have the gall to claim that the reason that they were able to destroy the broken one is that they carry such enormous spiritual authority. IMO I see a sociopath willing to justify any evil as long as he ends up looking victorious.

Since my days with the splinter group I've had to endure the judgment of the more mainline Christians who seem to feel that my bad situation proves that the Lord is not with me. Or they are willing to count me as a heretic who holds to dangerous beliefs even though they provide me no remedy as far as correct doctrine goes.

It seems to me that if the Lord counts me as his brother then what he'll percieve is how they all treated His brother, how else would the Lord say so looking forward to that great day still coming. I feel for the scripture to be true then his brethren must sometimes endure hunger, thirst, false imprisonment, and other undeserved evils.

As of late, I'm keeping a very close watch on my situation, and it's not good.Much of that is my own weakness. I'm a 46 year old man who suffered years of ministerial abuse then was kicked to the curb alone, without friends or my family, and I'm usually feeling beaten, bloodied, and too weak to put up much of a fight anymore. And in my low estate I am a little afraid of what the future holds for me and my son.

Now some of you it would seem would be willing to say, I'm getting what my believing deserves. I'm telling you that God's people have often been treated worse than me. Sometimes it has brought them to suicide as several here know for a truth. I often wonder about will I even make it to the point of getting delivered before I give up on looking to God for deliverance. The past 25 years of my life seem to paint a pretty ugly picture.


Some of God's people rest in their needs being met today, and judge the hungry and tired as weak and somehow deserving of their fate. God looks at this situation and see's that those who actually have the means to give would rather take vacations in the south-seas or somewhere than help their breteren who've had a real rough time of it. At the very least, don't those of you have plenty today understand that you will be judged by how you treat the neady? Don't you see that if you condemn the neady, the Lord will condemn you? THIS IS NOT A HARD TOPIC TO SEE IN THE SCRIPTURE, IT'S A HARD THING TO FIND COMPASSION IN A SO-CALLED BROTHER SOMETIMES THOUGH.

(added in editing)

I'm going to do some more of this later, but I will leave now.

I hope that you are willing to bear with me as I continue to come to grips with the events in my life and post my story in this style.

Edited by JeffSjo

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JeffSjo    44
In my little splinter group that I've spoken of often I see fairly clearly how things got so bad. In the earlier days there were things that I was concerned about, but I gave the leader the benefit of the doubt.

Looking back on it it's very clear that long before I was kicked out the leader left being one of the rest of us far behind and both allowed himself to become exhalted and even promoted it. When I was kicked out nobody could say a word against him without being treated with hatred, and that hatred was carefully cultivated in the believers over years of tightly controlled fellowship. Some of the means were more subtle, simply carrying out the old rod and carrot method of training.

In my case, I openly spoke of crappie biblical workmanship and brutally behaving leadership. The only thing that was left for them to do was to do their best do destroy my life, and I also am refering to twisting every knife ( a reference to mental abuse), and not just removing my family from me.

It's clear to me now that someone who's totally committed to being in control is capable of years of carefully building their influence over a group of people (desensitising) and destroying anyone who they deam as a threat. And even worse they're capable of hiding their intentions behind a lot of bible.

In my experience, the doctrines concerning marriages in a spiritual sense only are dangerous enough as it applies to the church.

Even more so when the sexual act is included in the mess. As if spiritualising it or any other justification over-rides what amounts to simple adultery or fornication. I'm fairly certain that Paul menioned these things along with an exhortation to not be decieved in at least one place.

I've seen folks consider themselves "joined" to a man in a spiritual sense even while they broke down the plain and simple commandments concerning the "for real marriage". I'm thinking that such joinings are often no better than a "white wedding" as sung by Billy Idol. If that's how it comes out in the wash when it's all said and done, there will be some very surprised and disssapointed people when the Lord has his say.

It certainly is clear at any rate that when men exercise authority over followers, that there is an abundant number of ways for them to completely screw things up IMO.

I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Once a man I knew in a little splinter group that I was a part of explained to me that it was o.k. with him that all the women in the group acted like beatle groupies (beatle groupies are my words, not his) when the MOG came around, even his wife and daughers. If anyone questioned this (I know by experience) they were marked as malcontents or worse. After all, this was only how this man's ministry worked, and to question his motives in allowing the ladies to act a little crazy was to be disloyal to the MOG. Never mind that he shared with us all that in order for him to continue in the ministry he had to forsake his own wedding vows. In hindsight I have no trouble saying that this whole situation was very twisted and very dangerous.

I'll have to substitute the last words as they pertain to my little splinter group if you don't mind. The similarities are stunning when I read many of your stories.

I just got home from work to see my TC/ MOG's thug and his wife standing in my driveway.

They told me that my wife and one year old moved out that day. The truth would be that leadership made a deliberate decision to move her out after considering their options a long time.

They told me,"You aren't welcome at fellowship until this shameful situation is rectified." The truth would have been that they were hitting me as hard as they possibly could to see if I'd break.

As I walked away I said,"The lord has carried me through tougher things than this, he'll carry me through this too!"

In my little splinter group it became regular practise to refer to those who have issues with the MOG (socalled) as in danger of "dying the death." (A reference to rev 2:23)

It seems to me that if a teacher can without limit draw comparisons between him/herself and O.T. Kings as they please ;including carrying out some kind of spiritual only death sentence; then those of us who remember have the right to hold them accountable.

Especially when by their own words and doctrines they were the ones to make the comparison.

Thank for the response Twinky, yeah that's what they did.

Leadership portraid it as fighting the devil and my wife agreed with them.

I kept pointing out bad Biblical workmanship, false prophecies, and a real twisted view of what church leadership should be.

So they completely wrecked my life behind a very convincing "false portrait" of Christain love and goodworks, I fear fooling themselves most of all.

I still worry about how many people they could ruin by convincing them to submit to the leader who considers himself an Apostle, but I had to point out repeatedly was a false prophet.

(edited to remove a very badly placed capital D.)

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JeffSjo    44

And a few more. I'm planning on reviewing them after I've got them on this "My Story" thread.

Transferance, when a woman takes feelings that God intended for her to have for her husband or even Jesus Christ himself and is encouraged to feel these for a fallible human minister.

No wonder things got so screwed up at TWI as cocerning Dr. Wierwille and the rest of top leadership.

Transeferance, it tricks some ministers into thinking that all the women belong to him. If I was a betting man I would be certain that this screwed over many TWI people.

It sure worked that way in my little splinter group. I was at loggerheads with leadership over many things and my wife held feelings for the leader as an owner( I'm not exagerating people, it's really happening today), and father. For one woman called a prophetess she felt for as a mother. No wonder I felt outgunned. All of my little group were systematically directed into transfering all these emotions to the leader or his cronies. But the leader was sure to keep the cronies under his thumb most of all.

This whole thread is about TRANSFERANCE. I'm not suree HOW it got started in TWI but in my little splinter group it's been deliberately planned and tought by every means possible. Tranferance can be a powerfull tool in the arsenal of any sick b--tard that wants to Lord it over the Lord's inheritance.



No minister who has any sanity on the subject would allow himself to be in a position of being at odds doctrinally with the concept of "I'm not the woman's husband or Lord."

Looking back at it, the justifications for adultery are the hardest things to look at for me. I REMEMBER Dr. sharing that "spiritual adultery" was what the majority of references in the N.T. were refering to. If I only knew what was behind that then. BLECH!!!

(added in editing)

Some of these characteristics I've seen with my own eyes in my own little splinter group. Some I can imagine about TWI based on the posts that I've heard hear.

A supposed MOG in a closed society can become insanely full of themselves.Then it's not hard to convince others to think too highly of them also. This unstable state I've seen leads to a MOG who thinks he's a superconqueror but in reality only can make an impression on the type of followers who are the most likely to want to give up their right to think for themselves. I've seen this be kids in the worst case, especially young ladies.

What Dr. Wierwille thought of as "spiritual adultery" was in fact a normal and healthy growth in the individuals who were just thinking for themselves. Stopping this normal growth that comes from good questions hindered growth in the individual and even more stifled the growth in TWI leading to world view that is self centered and unable to stay sane. They ended up most resembling water circling the drain IMO. For me this applies to my little splinter group and TWI.

So then, what's called "spiritual jealosy" by the MOG and his most ardent followers ends up being in reality an insane and unworkable attempt to totally control and take all the glory for the church's progress, both in the individual and in the group. And this unworkable and twisted perspective has lead to disaster on many levels.

To me, this state of affairs is far worse than the imaginary soap operas on television.

(edited for grammar)

You are correct about me not sending any money to TWI anymore, but it's been a long time since I have. I've been involved with a small splinter group since 1989 or so and many, many things that people share about TWI seem very clear to me now that I never could have considered before unless these things hadn't become clear to me in life-shattering detail, real up close and personal like. I like the greasespot in many respects because some things are different here then real life, so to speak.

Here, there is some distance between us and the folks we're talking too. I think for TWI victims this gives them a great chance to step back and review and rethink the conversation that "real life" does not allow.

In real life, the life-sucking ghoul that controls people's lives was real in my face, and I supported his ministry with not just my finances, but my life's direction as well.

So dealing with whether or not TWI deserves financial support in this forum is quite a breather for me in comparison.

But after hearing folks share about broken lives here at the greasespot I'm real sure that my splinter group leader learned how to break people, control them, and use them from the very worst of TWI practices, and all the while train people to keep up a very convincing false front to the casual observer, heck, for years he's been TRAINING his disciples to help him convince ex-wayfers that he is for real. I shudder to think of what will happen to people who get sucked in because what he's capable of is stealing everything a man or woman has and then discarding them like a piece of trash when he's done. If you want, just take a good look at my life and then you'll know that for me this isn't fake, it is my life.

So I feel certain in my opinion that there are good people out there, and that people who learned their tricks from TWI (like Chr!s G$$r and his fellow former top TWI leadership thugs IMO) not only don't deserve our money, but that what they deserve will only happen to them by the will of GOD in HIS own time.

(edited for grammar)

This is my take on how the whole thing with the dogs was. Some of it based on what I've heard of VPW and his dogs and some based on my small splinter group that used border collies and sheep to simulate what Dr. did with the shorthairs.

The whole friggin point of the dogs before the attack dogs was that VPW trained people and that the template for his teaching ministry was how he trained the dogs. YUCH.

You see, in my splinter group it turned into a real heady mix of teachers and worthless dogs who existed to serve the master's desires. YUCH.

The whole thing was a real life analogy for how TWI leadership treated people, and they know it, it was never hidden, it was even rejoiced in. YUCH.

It appears to me that between the creeping paranoia of assassination, the corrupt consciences of Geer and Wierwille, and the breakup of the ministry, that dangerous attack dogs was a sadly inevitable result of the insanity.

(edited for clarity)

Thank you Don'tWorryBeHappy for an imformative and useful thread.

As far as psychotherapy goes, I've never been physically close to it, but I do remember that Dr. Wierwille taught the dismissive attitude that you describe. For most of my life since it's been very easy for me to hold on to this attitude in some kind of benign prejudice I think. But it has also been obvious to me that a systematized field of study on the human condition could be useful, informative, and helpful at best while potentially being harmful at worst. I think that the same can be said of religions too.

When my splinter group experience ended with my expulsion I begged my wife to go to some kind of councelling and I sought out direction and help from some of the local ministers. After I found what seemed like a councelling service that for me seemed to stand out above the rest I asked my wife to go there with me. She declined, as she was taught that the devil and I were some kind of best buds or something.

TWI stories mixed with my splinter experience has taught me that a well intentioned non-christian therapist is much, MUCH better than a ministry controlled by a man with sociopathic tendencies that totally wrecks any attempt to live in any kind of spiritual reality. I think that a ruined spiritual reality can at best be called a delusion. I think that for these reasons that a BAD THERAPIST is most likely FAR LESS HARMFUL THAN TWI.

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JeffSjo    44
My splinter group leader had a desire for dominance over men that far exceeded his desire for truth. As far as I know the sexual aspects weren't there, but any man that challenged him was inevitably marked for destruction. (My life is ample evidence for me) In this sense and IMO ironically he was the man he claims to be, a TRUE SON of Dr. Wierwille.

Once he and one of his chief thugs visited Ralph Dubovsky. At the time I think he was sharing the "heavy revy" of his latest false prediction about the time of the Lord's return along with a bunch of stuff on the stars.

Later this chief thug told me that Ralph's ATTITUDE proved to him that Ralph was not worthy of recieving the "Word of God." In my opinion this man who was the same one that kicked me out of the group is worthy of several tirades that I think I will hold back on for now.

Recently I talked to a sweet woman and Corps grad who helped me after I was kicked out of my splinter group. I was dissapointed to hear that the first thing out of her mouth when I brought up TWI abuse was that the victims deserve the blame for their predicament. (Another programmed TWI tool IMO) It was amazing to me that she would say that even though she witnessed TWI leadership trolling for chicks within the Corps program training that she went through. In every other respect she is a wonderful and compassionate person. But this darn blaming the victim crapola that was spearheaded by Martindale and Geer is persistently wicked.

Sadly, ever since she helped me she's distanced herself from me. I think that I might be more trouble than she wants to deal with, I don't blame her for that, it's just a little sad I guess.

In my splinter group the head (I often think of other..... bodyparts) honcho once said to folks that, "without me, God could have wiped you like a plate." gak.....gag!

He bragged three times or four to the whole group that if people only knew what he did in the ministry he'd be in prison. (paranoid..... or maybe criminal)

He told everybody, with TEARS mind you, about all the nights he stayed up just praying for us.

IMO it wasn't anything at all except trying to convince us he was for real in order to have us buy his twisted agenda.

In my splinter group, before they kicked me out that is, I made it clear that I would not witness to people and try to bring them into the fold because of how they hated me. My splinter group leader had a habit of looking right at me whenever he quoted scripture that was similar to,"I have hated every false way" etc. etc. Even my wife bought into hating me.

I responded often to some lame and/or twisted new idea by saying something like,"Gee, why don't we try serving God instead."

When I responded to their hidden accusations which they refused to confront me with with a scripture reference about the price of holding false accusations or hating the bretheren they usually had some answer. Once in response to my nudging this group to take care of the folks that were not doing well financially, the fearful leader responded by quoting the scripture that says,"The poor will be with you always, but I will not be with you always." I think this jerk will never willingly give up those who he's ensnared anyway.

When I quoted,"Thy Word is as a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces," They responded with, "The rock on which we stand is the Lord Jesus Christ."

It was a long, drawn out conflict between me and them, and my wife sided with them. But if they are wrong, then I believe that they will recieve the consequences that they deserve for their hatred, dishonesty, and twisted doctrines.

This was my life before coming to the Greasespot. I'm sharing so that you can judge for yourselves why I see what I see now, when I look at The Way International

(edited for grammar)

Dear White Dove and Oldiesman,

The thing is, I wish that I could agree with you. Not to long ago I would have gladly stomped on (so to speak) any PFAL grad who wasn't thankful to God for TWI leadership. As I was led, I would have dismissed any claims of abuse as propoganda. I would have thought that the only noble thing to do was to hold on to the good and keep the loyalty to Geer that my splinter group taught. I would be aware that problems existed, but only mourned that things went bad. I would not have blamed Wierwille or Geer, because the TWI sentiment is that they did their best to fix things, but because of wicked men that crept in (See Jude) things went sour, and no man could have fixed it.

Then I spent several years as the target of this splinter group's TWI-like machinations and lost my wife and my child. It's not that I didn't have problems, but IMO the things that I dealt with personally could have been handled by virtually any competant and loving Christian organization.

My splinter group leader separated the group from their whole previous life and controlled every aspect of their (our) lives. While in control, they isolated me within the group and wrecked my whole life. My fighting back only served to make his control stronger because I was vastly outnumbered and the whole group was victimized by what I now recognize as TWI style crowd control methods that were first employed by Wierwille and his disciples Martindale and Geer.

WD and Oldies, you may not see it this way, but I believe that you are holding TWI promoted attitudes that make you tools of TWI still.

How can anyone say WE ARE ALL BETTER OFF in the face of death and abuse? I don't get you. In practice IMO the good stuff in TWI only covered up the sicko-psycho-abusive TWI style leadership.

To me it's like keeping bailing water in a rapidly sinking ship. It can even be viewed as valiant, but it's proving futile.

I can easily relate to being subject to tools. In my case it was twisted disciples of our fearful splinter group leader. Once I had an experience that I think will forever give me an appreciation for the Lord's parable about the splinter and the beam. IMO unwitting tools have some form of beam in their own eye, whether they realize it or not.

I was working on a new walk-in cooler for our fearful leader with a 18 year old young man. We were cutting pieces of oriented strand board while putting up walls around where the cooller would be and I got a splinter in my eye. I went to the two men who were overseeing the project with tears running down the right side of my face from the splinter.

As they had been led into thinking that they were supreme as long as they kissed our fearful leader's butt, they made me stand there for at least two minutes while they finished up their oh-so-important overseeing jobs. I'm thinking, "OMG, just look at the gleam in their eye, and how much they enjoy me being in this predicament.

Finally, they brought me into the main house on the property. They were obviously really enjoying themselves, trying to get the splinter out, but they were unsuccessful. Those to puffed up little..... left the room and I was there with the overseers mother-in-law. As she watched (let's call this woman, LINDA) I got the splinter out of my own eye. Then to my amazement Linda said to me with a lot of attitude mind you,"That was a very large splinter in your eye Jeff." I didn't say anything except, "The splinter is out guys, I'm going back to work."

When I got back to work, the young man said something like," It sure was good for you that you had those two to help you with the splinter!"

I answered(while keeping my good humor to myself), "They couldn't help me, I had to do it for myself!" The poor kid looked shocked, and the next time I saw the overseer, he looked like a whipped puppy. hehehe

I wonder if that was a factor in the same man moving my wife and child out of my house and then telling me,"You are not welcome in fellowship until this shameful situation is resolved."


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JeffSjo    44
Lately, Ive been considering the very action of criticizing Wierwille in TWI circles. I have to admit that some of my opinions will be based on my splinter group experience. It seems to me that the splinter was an offshoot of TWI and many, many things that I saw with my own eyes simply grew out of TWI practice.

My splinter group leader was excessively focussed on what people thought of him. Once, one of his chief thugsters (Yes, the same one that moved my wife and son, and kicked me out of the group) said to me concerning our fearful leader," He just somehow seems to know who to hold on too, and who to let go!" Since I later got let go, I think that I am in a position to form an opinion on how this worked. It seems to me that the only thing that counted to this head jerk was whether or not he felt that he OWNED you. A large part of this is whether or not he felt genuine affection from his ensnared disciples. Toward the end, I flat told him that I would mock him! This was about three weeks before they wrecked my life as much as they could.

I'm certain from experience and an abundance of testimony here at the Greasespot that if I had told Wierwille to his face that I would MOCK HIM that he would have wrecked my life too!

I'm certain that blind loyalty in the face of overwhelming evidence is one of the things that Wierwille encouraged and rewarded within the TWI structure.

I'm certain that top TWI leadership would have been happy if fewer people were susceptible to the fact that Wierwille was a sick, twisted wreck of a human soul. But for the TWI faithful, as they were taught, to criticize Wierwille is blasphemy, what a crock. Even Jesus Christ didn't think that speaking ill of him was unforgivable. And now according to TWI practice and my splinter group's doctrine, everything hinges on whether or not you'd "give it up" for the bid dogs.

(added in editing)

I just remembered, my splinter group leader once accused me of ANALYZING HIM. All I can say is yes I did....DUUHH!

And I'm really glad looking back at things that, that it's probably a good thing that compared to Wierwille, Martindale seemed like a transparent buffoon!

Dear Kimberly,

One of the points that I seeking to make clear in this thread was that even as a Marine I had the responsibility to evaluate the legitimacy of orders that I had recieved. This is a serious matter IMO and not to be taken lightly. If I ever was in a situation where I would have had to disobey orders, it was not in the Marine Corps, it was in my splinter group.

Biblically, I believe my splinter leader had long ago, weeded out everyone who was willing to take a stand against his twisted leadership, in many respects I think that it is possible that I was the last one that might have been willing to resist. For years he carefully cultivated his control over his followers at the expense of good biblical workmanship, even turning my wife against me. In the end, I paid a price for my stubborness. But if I would have been willing to pay a price for disobedience as a Marine if the stakes were high enough, then I think that I did the best that I could in resisting the splinter group leader even though I paid a price for it.

But in my splinter group struggles one of the things that I faced was the neccesity of quoting people correctly and remembering things accurately. If I didn't happen to be fairly good at that I don't think that I would have been able to make it through the seemingly endless mindgames that they threw at me. For the most part they couldn't say anything when I reminded them of what they did, because I had it right. This is why, when you pointed out my error, it pretty much wrecked the rest of my day yesterday, because these things are important to me.

When someone contradicts eyewitness testimony they need to have facts themselves. Otherwise to me, they are just casting doubt on somebody without providing anything substantive themselves. In such cases, IMO most often, they are only disputing the witness in order to bully and/or limit the impact of the testimony. They are the ones whose motives need to be questioned as they are argumentative but not substantive. Style but no substance if you will.

That seems like a very relevant question about supposed leader's aspirations. IMO it is very unlikely that any of them would share as it relates to their ambitions.

I became convinced long ago that my former splinter leader considers himself to be Wierwille and Geer's superior. His followers even reffered to him as "the Word in the flesh."

I think it might be very interesting to compare this book with my splinter experience.

I believe that there will be no ultimate justice as it relates to TWI abuse until the Lord has HIS DAY. Until then a valid exhortation for a Christian soldier IMO is to "endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. ( II Timothy)

In TWI it seems to me that Wierwille carefully nurtured an attitude that secular authorities were to be ignored or even thwarted IMO. If the U.S. government had a history of persecuting Christians as any number of other governments have in recent history I could understand it. But it appears to me now that one of the main reasons for this attitude was to hide his perversions. Many of the sharings here at the Greasespot make it clear to me that the laws that TWI chose to violate were not inventions of wicked secular men, but legitimate laws that are intended to protect the common good. I'm certain that Wierwille deliberately built an aversion to any authority but his into the "TWI group think." I've seen this with my own eyes in my splinter group.

Three or four times before I was kicked out the leader boasted to the entire fellowship that if people only knew what he did in the ministry he'd go to prison!!!! After one of these times I heard him say to everyone within ear-shot that he felt he was battling all the forces of hell while he was sharing. Even though I believe this man is off his rocker, (so-to-speak) I'M STILL NOT CERTAIN WHERE THE LINE BETWEEN CRIME AND THIS MAN'S INSANITY ACTUALLY IS. But I am certain that he used this sentiment to build on his authority within the group, even though at the time I considered it a very foolish thing to say over and over again.

(edited for grammar)

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JeffSjo    44
I've heard things here at the Greasespot that indicate that TWI leadership went as far in condemning innocent people as to dare to declare them SPIRITUALLY DEAD. I never faced that during my time in TWI. But I saw this insane and harmful doctrine very up close and personally in my little splinter group.

Once I heard a man sharing about his own daughter who was facing some type of challenge in regards to her spiritual education (so-called only IMO) that she WASN'T DEAD YET. This shocked me at the time that I heard him share it because the way that he said it made it clear to me that to this man, whether his own daughter was considered alive or dead had to do with the state of her "fellowship" with the twisted, bitter, and fearful man that led my splinter group.

At the time he said it I already had a history of resisting any number of false and twisted doctrines that this man initiated to continue his own glorification as the leader of our splinter group. Even though they never said it to my face, I'm quite certain where I fell on their false scale of justice. About three or four weeks before he had me kicked out I told him to his face that I would mock him!

The twisted bastard that I'm referring to went as far as to consider himself as the High Priest insomuch as it was taught that it was not right for him to touch any dead thing. How convenient for him it was to then declare that he wouldn't any more deal with me personally and have his pet toadies and thugs carry out my expulsion from the group.

Words seem to fail me now to describe the anger I now feel at this false twisted doctrine that these folks hold by twisting the scriptures to their own purposes.

(edited for grammar, spelling, and I added a little too.)

Dear Sudo,

Actually, I think I manage my anger issues o.k., but denying that I feel anger and stuffing those feelings would be worse IMO. Especially if sharing the feelings that I have can help others relate and possibly let others know that they aren't the only ones.

My splinter leader felt anger and was even cruel to animals, but presented himself in such a manner that he was thought of as a man's man within the group even though I made it clear that I wasn't impressed with my his story about kicking a puppy who piddled in his house across the room once. At another time, while leading a group of sheep he broke his staff over the head of an unruly animal, because it tried to walk ahead of him while he was attempting to lead them. Even my wife was caught up in admiration for this behavior. I was never out of control in sharing with my wife that I was angry with certain things they did, and I was portrayed as the one who was out of control with my anger.

As far as "getting a grip" goes, I'm in my 40's and I've been forced to pretty much start over from scratch. But I shared that with my very first post in the new members section last November. "Getting a grip" is still a work in progress for me.

Dear Socks,

Thanks for the appreciation. :)

I just had to take my best shot at this TWI practice of diminishing the value of anyone who doesn't go with the flow. Considering someone to be dead IMO is carrying this idea to the extreme. Placing a once and for all excommunication if you will on an individual who leadership believes is beyond their control.

I believe that Christ himself will someday cause everyone to answer for their actions according to the scriptures. For those in leadership who unjustly ruined others lives and knew that what they were doing was unjust, I believe that they will pay a steep price.

I'll send you a Graesspot E-mail in answer to your last question Socks.


I know how you feel about dealing with non-sensical leadership. A long time ago I realized that if they wouldn't hear the scriptures that their was nothing that I could do. As a matter of fact, I'm certain that if I ever responded to the extreme and unhinged provocations that they threw in my face with any kind of outburst that it would have given them the excuse that they were looking for to justify their actions in people's eyes.

I realized that one of my splinter group leader's thugs was going for that once when he got in my face once, while in front of my wife, and told me to F___ recently deceased Grandmother at least ten or fifteen times in an angry outburst. Even as he was ranting at me I knew that if I made any type of physical reprisal that my marriage and my time in the group would be over and they would simply say that I was possessed and that I attacked a valuable leader within the group.

But in the course of my divorce it was one of the things that happened that made it very easy to convince the courts that it was a good thing to keep my son away from them. My ex gave me the "thousand daggers of death look" as she was driving by me after that session, let me tell you. But my boy can't be with them, so I won that much anyway.

I'm with you 100% TOMMYZ on wanting to do good now.

(edited for spelling)

Keeping on track with this thread I only have one way to approach this topic on my mind right now.

The whole spiritual death thing is only one tool in a faulty TWI arsenal that has served to attempt to silence opposition and bring the efforts of good people to nothing.

It stands to reason that in my case, since my splinter leader is both insane and hypocritical that it is impossible for him to apply scripture to both of us with anything approaching fairness. His actions are worse than mine, but in his own mind he's special and deserves all the glory as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. But I submit that in many instances his twisted behavior is worthy of the destruction that he visited on my life. I'll wait for the Lord to do it to him all by himself, without any destructive actions on my part to the best of my ability.

If I can help anyone in the mean time by sharing something then I am content. Revealing his name in public will only serve his ends by allowing him to get his pet toadies and thugs all worked up over the so-called persecution that they are facing. Heck, about two months after 9-11 he shared that we would be attacked by the locals or by government forces, and if we wanted to stand with him we had better be prepared to die! Because of his paranoid ravings people were even more behind him than without the prospect of persecution. I don't want to make it worse for folks who I still am very concerned about by allowing him to point out that I am PUBLICALLY impugning him.

To everyone concerned, I'm past being concerned about it going public now.


Thank you for the concern, you seem very kind to me.

As part of the judgment that my splinter group dished out at me they kicked me out already about 4 1/2 years ago. After many years of trying to help them keep away from the insanity that lives in the heart of the leader they moved my wife and child out of my house behind my back and kicked me out of the fellowship. Most of the time since I've been floundering on many levels, but my mostly lonely floundering time was still immensely better that the day after day mind games that they deliberately put me through over the course of a few years.

Aside from being considered spiritually dead I've faced many obstacles while I was there. There were accusations that I was never even confronted with, but every time they seemed about ready to come to the surface I shoved them back down their throats, so-to-speak. I've been called virtually every bad biblical name that I can think of too.

My first post in the "new members" section I shared that I was looking for a new start. It didn't take very long for me to perceive things going on at the Greasespot that seemed very similar to the beat down I faced while a member of this certain splinter group.

All-in-all, I think my time at the Greasespot has been well spent. I feel that I have a much better handle on what went wrong, and why it went wrong than ever before. And I feel much better about dealing with daily life now that several things about TWI and my splinter group seem to be resolved. But once again, who knows where tomorrow may lead?

My former splinter group has had gun ownership and training of the youth in proper gun safety a goal. Personally, I do not think that they would be very good at intimidating folks with weapons for the majority of the gun owning locals in their rural area.

Once, the member of the group that was given some responsibility in terms of researching the types and numbers of guns that they would buy got permission to rid the group farm of a pest. In spite of his supposed skill he took a rifle out of the box and without sighting or test firing the weapon he started shooting at the deer from close range, about fifty feet if I recall. He didn't even come close, but did manage to chase the pest off that day anyway.

On another day the same elder that fired me from my job later was boasting to me of all the different weapons they have and the multitude of ammunition, with a view to convincing me that the fox that was at the time preying on the chickens was dead meat if it showed up again. After he finished I (With a completely straight face mind you) said,"So what you're saying is the fox has a fifty-fifty chance if it shows up." (snort, chuckle) Some time later he told me that after spotting the fox crossing a field coming in their direction several of them got their rifles out and unloaded many rounds in the foxes general direction, but that it ran of unscathed. Then with a surprisingly thoughtful look on his face acknowledged that the fox had about a fifty-fifty chance.

And this is going on in a group in which the leader has told them that they would be attacked by the locals or the government, SCARY!!!

Sorry for the off-topic part of this post, now back to the topic.

For my splinter group intimidation tactics I've heard of all manner of intimidation of the general public even, mostly after I was kicked out and started talking to the general public. Most of it involved isolating someone that they wanted to work over to get their way. Most of the intimidation seems to be verbal, but there were a couple of thugs that could get in someone's face if they thought it would get them what they want. I consider it to the kind of behavior that a pack of jackels might be good at if they ran in packs and isolated their prey.

Within a structured sharing the leader would work us all over by picking out someone to be verbally abused, and then share his supposed heavy- revy for the day. Once he yelled at his poor wife for about five minutes in front of us all for a harmless mistake that she made in the public kitchen while preparing food for a church meeting.

For me the only thing that has held them back from actually physically assaulting people is fear of reprisals. I'm even now recalling many types of intimidation that happened to me and others, but I'm running out of time today. I think that all had inflated self worth at the delusional stage as an underlying factor anyway.

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JeffSjo    44

(edited to remove a double post)

Edited by JeffSjo

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JeffSjo    44
You bet Ham,

Like in my splinter group, the man in charge seemed to delight in destroying his enemies.

Whether they threatened his greatness from the outside of the group or from the inside they were marked and destroyed in the most despicable manners, as long as it didn't leave them vulnerable to prosecution through the legal system.

Guided by these despicable double standards of behavior, leadership was allowed to become a backstabbing force for evil through poltical machinations.

I've heard you mention Machiavellian behavior and the double standard before Ham.

I'm out of time now, I get back with you later.

Thank you John,

I plan on referring back to your list as the need arises. I think it may well help me evaluate groups in the future.

As far as my former splinter group goes, I fear that it has gone far, far past simply the simple correction of implementing the good guidelines on your list. Sometimes I wonder what the latest false prediction of the Lord's return is that the leader is using to whip the troops into shape. Since this man was even referred to as "The Word in the Flesh" over four plus years ago and they don't seem to show any signs of anything except getting pulled farther and farther over the edge from sanity, I fear that it will end badly.

A leader like this IMO will not ever likely fess up to all his bogus doctrines and eat the appropriate amount of crow to help his own people recover.

Thank you for the list though, once again.


Once in my little splinter group the same elder that later fired me from my job after they moved my wife and son out of my house told me about an idea to help the community, well, specifically the town that was nearest their location. They were going to train chosen people to get involved with local government activities in the town. This elders own words were something along the lines of,"We could make things SO MUCH BETTER!"

My gut reaction to this was that they were stupid and prideful to automatically assume that they could improve things for the local town that SO DESPERATELY NEEDED THEIR HELP. By this time I was operating with a fairly clear picture of how my splinter leader would use an incursion into local government affairs to expand his influence with his loyal disciples. Frankly, I thought that either the locals would laugh them out of involvement when they saw how my splinter group operated or, eventually my splinter leader would slowly turn town life into a living he!! for the residents, perhaps over five or ten years.

I answered this elder after he finished telling me about their intentions,"GEE, MAYBE WE COULD ACTUALLY SERVE GOD INSTEAD." hehehe I could see that I burst his bubble, their plans never materialized. Frankly by this time I thought the town may need protecting from my splinter group leader.

My former splinter group members would think that they would have been serving God by serving the intentions of the leader. But even little old me could burst their bubble, I don't think they'd stand a chance of thinking that if they were allowed to live outside of their super restrictive, oppressive atmosphere.

I still worry that they could fool wayfers and former wayfers!

(edited for grammar)

Dear Waysider,

That kind of thing is what really galls me about my splinter group, the motives of the man who rules with an iron fist in the center. I've told some of the locals that he was like the big, nasty, blood-sucking spider in the center of a web of very nice, sincere people.

My ex-wife thought of him as a replacement for the father that she lost as a child and considers me to be the bad guy for telling her what was going on with him.

My splinter leader just wants to own people, lock, stock, and barrel IMO. Folks went into debt beyond what the could carry for the priviledge of having this man take their families for his own. One woman actually told her husband to his face that this man was the TRUE FATHER of his kids. He was going to ignore it until I told him that he had to deal with it. As a reward this woman was "given the blessing" (Barf, wretch) of the likelyhood of her daughters being paired with my former splinter leader's sons.

Dear Waterbuffallo,

Personally, I'm really, really glad that you are doing well. :)

I don't mind that elder thing as much as the "Word in the flesh" thing as it was applied to our fearful leader. And the apostle, king, one who holds the rod of Iron, etc. etc. type glory that was reserved exclusively for him.

This last weekend I was talking to my five year old son about my former splinter group leader. We need to talk about him because my ex-wife and I agreed in our divorce papers to keep my boy away from that group. My boy says that he has not been there and I am glad for that. But his mother says that this leader is a good man to my boy, so I was feeling bad for my boy that she and I have to disagree and that my boy is caught in the middle.

Then during the conversation my boy says, "Mom doesn't like you very much dad."

I thought he was having a hard enough time dealing with our disagreement about our former splinter group leader and I didn't want to make life any harder for my son.

I amswered my son,"That's o.k. son, I still like your mom."

(edited for clarity)

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JeffSjo    44
Personally, I wish that TWI and my former splinter group had a fraction of the ethics that some of you atheists and agnostics seem to have.

They'd be better off IMO.

Hi Socks,

In my splinter group, the leader openly sneered at the concept of being honest. It was sometimes when issues that I was concerned about had been brought up for consideration. His pet toadies and chief thugs unfortunately picked up on the same sentiment.

To me, honesty as the sane world knows it, is a necessity for accountability and transparency. I think that it's great that you point it out, but the way I see it, with groups such as TWI and my splinter group, they've gotten SOOO DISHONEST that any presentations by them that say that they are honest are to be disqualified for serious consideration because of the lying nature of the source. IMO their proffesions of honesty are just another self-serving spin.

Thank Potato,

It's kind of amazing to me how quickly that I seem to get the feel for what TWI became even though I never saw that during my brief time in TWI. I'm certain that is because my long association with my splinter group prepared me to be able to get what they became, after all, I've seen most of this stuff real up close and personal like already.

There were some events in my splinter group that seem to relate to the honesty issue. It may seem odd to some of you, but all I can say is that when a small group of people cut themselves off from everyone and everything else, the subtle (or not so subtle in this case) undercurrents can get weird and twisted.

The within the group discussion was concerning lighting a room. A roomate of my wife and I pointed out that I kept the house too bright, and she explained that softer light and darker areas within the room was a more comfortable lighting scheme for her. I went with her inpute, but also started joking around that it seemed to me that I might prefer lighting a room with huge floodlights and a large industrial style switch, and that I didn't want any shadows in the room at all.

By the time this line of discussion was played out my splinter group leader layed out the soft lighting scheme as if it was church doctrine and folks seemed to go out of there way to point out to me how much better the soft lighting scheme was. I think that they were right about the soft lighting scheme and did from shortly after the first time that the whole thing was brought up to me. But their overwrought response to my joking around was IMO COMPLETELY INSANE AND UNNECESSARY.

As much as I don't like spiritualizing simple things, I still can;t help but think that my splinter leader who boasted three or for times in front of the whole group," If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison" probably has grown too fond of his dark little corners!

(edited for clarity)

Dear cheranne and friends,

It got more twisted and wierder than that.

Later on if anyone else other than our fearful leader had anything to say his most loyal followers would do a nudge, nudge, wink, wink kind of thing by saying something like,"lucifer means SHINING ONE." After that "SPLINTER SPEAK" was well established in their group think all they'd have to do as say something like, "boy, that was shiny."

So anything that anybody else said was disregarded not based on merit, but it was called devilish because it didn't proceed from that "word in the flesh" guy that they allowed to have complete dominance over their lives.

This whole "shiny" thing was not way speak, I'll call it "splinter speak."

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JeffSjo    44
I can still remember the process and many events that slowly convinced me that the leader was off his rocker in a bad way. Many people still consider him the shepherd of the sheep for them. I mean about 150 people to give you a sense of it. It seems like many to me because I know them all.

The leader keeps all the credit and all the control. He has lied and prophecied falsely many times. He is capable of completely crushing a persons heart and having them thank him for the privelidge of being "shepherded" by him at the same time.

The mind games that he and his toadies threw at me could have and to some extent did break me.

But their evil is o.k. you see, because it is being directed by their apostle and is only spiritual warfare.

I've seen him play husbands throught their wives.

I've seen him play wives through their husbands.

I've seen him convince my wife that I was "SHINY."

I've seen him isolate children from their parents under the guise of "spiritual training."

I've seen him boast about his notoriety to the church even though he has virtually no notoriety or credibility with anybody as far as I can tell.

I've even seen him try to get a couple to give up their retarted son for adoption because the child was "not worthy" of the shepherd's care. (I'm getting angry now.) Then he manipulated this man to close down his business in order to repay him for this disobedience. I fear for Mike and Donna.


In my former splinter group that as yet I feel needs to publically unnamed here at the Greasespot the craft of the put down was a very effective method of keeping people in line. And I think that these manipulations came from Way Corps training in TWI. In TWI I can recall times when all that was needed to keep people in line was that leadership simply let it be known that a certain person "had spiritual problems." Then it was understood that everyone who was in the group had been warned to stay away from a certain someone.

I can understand that if a person is genuinely dangerous that folks might need to be warned off. After I was kicked out of my former splinter group I chose to let the locals know what was going on inside of my splinter group. Then they knew that the leader had told us that the locals or the government would attack us. Then they knew that the leader has been wrongly predicting the year of the Lord's return for qite a while. False predictions included 1997, 2000, 2002, and 2005 before they kicked me out. I also chose to give the locals several specific sharings so that they would not be fooled by the kind and good appearance that they work so hard to give people. IMO they have to work hard at it because what really goes on inside of that group is as twisted and nasty as anything that I've ever seen in my whole life. I was a little surprised but a little relieved to see that for the most part the locals were already aware that the leadership of this splinter group was nasty.

While I was a part of this splinter group I was certain that they were talking about me behind my back too. But I've always been willing to deal with my own faults honestly. I tried many, many times to discuss my faults with them, especially when I was expecting genuine Christian love and help. But after it became clear to me that genuine Christian love and help was not what they were going to give me, that they were using and exagerating my faults against me. At times I was even forced to speak against flat out lies that were being spoken about me. Ater several times of me stomping their lies into the dirt (so-to-speak) they only talked about these things behind my back, so I never had a chance to stomp them into the dirt more. Now it's anyone's guess how far they might go in order to make a percieved adversary look bad, but I would wish that they had given me the chance to speak DIRECTLY TO THE THINGS THAT THEY SPOKE AGAINST ME. Without me being able to confirm or deny the things that they hold against me, I consider them to be a mix of cowardice and backstabbing. Certainly they've learned to manage people's opinions of me in order to keep people within the group marching according to the company line.

I tried real hard to be up front with them first, only to have them move my wife and son out of my house and then have them kick me out of the fellowship. I think that my speaking about them and warning folks what was going on inside the group was just. If not just, at least I didn't lie.

For the most part now, I relish the opportunity to speak directly to things that are being spoken of me, but for the most part gossipers seem to want to hide, and so do false accusers IMO.

(edited for spelling)

Just to fill you guys in some more.....

My ex and I agreed to keep my son away from these bastards within our divorce decree. When the mediator that the courts appointed heard my side of it he asked if that the same kind of restrictions that applied to keeping children away from child abusers were applied to our divorce decree would be adequate. I answered,"It's not perfect, but it will do."

My son loves me, and I love him. My ex hates me, in her own words too. But for now the situation that my son is in seems acceptable to me. But thank you both for giving me some things to consider.

The thing about this splinter group is that when they talked behind my back they also exercized control over my wife and my friends. It is a very toxic mixture of extreme control along with a twisted and warped view of life and the ministry. It was a very, very hard thing to face for me, and it damaged me quite a bit.

My son is doing quite well in spite of his mother's opinions I think. It's always good between us. He talks to me about it, and I don't bash his mom. I think he knows that I'm the one that he can talk to. I'm trying to stay on top of it however.

I'm adding this next one not because it relates to the thread, but because it relates to my mood.

This sentiment comes from one of my mom's favorite coffee mugs.....




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JeffSjo    44
Thank you all once again,

I think that some of the hardest "put downs" to deal with in my splinter group were the ones that came from the teacher's podium. It took me a while to understand the method and even longer to see that it was manipulative and nasty. What can I say, when I was involved in such a tightly controlled group of people it was easy to keep tracking with leadership and everybody else.

But as I tend to respect the podium and was in such control it was hard to deal with. The very first time that I felt the full impact was when my splinter leader did a teaching on King David, Nabal, and Nabal's wife, I forget her name at the moment.

The story is that Nabal angered David. When David went to avenge himself Nabal's wife interceeded for her hubby and kept David from sinning against the lord. Then Nabal heard about what his wife did and it had such a huge impact on him that he died shortly after. Later David married Nabal's wife.

All during the teaching when the splinter leader spoke of Nabal he looked at me. When he spoke of Nabal's wife, he looked at my wife. And this was about the time when the splinter leader's false prophet thugs were constantly comparing our splinter leader to David. I GOT THE IMPLICATION!!!! But the slimy bastard did it all without ever actually saying what he was doing or what he intended to do. But as far as the scriptures go I believe that even in the midst of such terrible put downs that I was given the perfect scripture to reprove his wicked put downs. Maybe that's a big part of why I hung in there and why I still seek to trust the Lord.

For the next four years or so I was subjected to what amounts to several types of put downs that IMO amounted to mental torture. Most of them playing on the natural emotions a guy who still loves his wife would feel. But the intentions were to break my will and/or get me to do something so stupid that they could justify their intentions to break my marriage. But I do believe in marriage as a covenant and I didn't leave.

I do not believe that sex with my ex was a factor, but all women belonging to the group leader is still exceptionally wicked IMO and damaging even if sexual relations are kept out of the equation.

All during this time I was more and more boldly pointing out terrible Biblical workmanship that was getting steadily worse.

JUST SO YOU GUYS KNOW, I AM FAIRLY WELL VERSED IN THEIR METHODS AND THEIR GOALS. I'm just trusting God to show me the warning signs if and when my boy starts to turn away from me like my wife was turned. So-far so good.

In spite of their extreme and IMO devilish methods and goals I do believe that they are also cowardly and will not openly break the restrictions in our divorce decree. But as much as possible I am ready for anything.

When I first came to the greasespot almost a year ago now I thought that I would be needing to make friends with real people in order to get some help recovering from the many, many mind games that were thrown at me. Even though that has not worked out as I expected I've been able to see many of my splinter groups methods in your many posts concerning TWI methods and it has helped hearing about them from you all.

You guys don't have a wait a year policy, do you?

(Edited for Grammar)

I'm going to go for the rest of the weekend now.

But before I go, let me just say that with our TWI/ splinter group experiences I can understand why some of you would be concerned about being played by someone who only said that they were going through things alone.

If I didn't see what I've seen it would be hard for me to imagine how wicked someone could really be who looked good on the outside.... ie my splinter group leader.



This is not a good thing IMO because I did not recognize it for what it was right away, but I've seen how this guy plays this game and I didn't respond with both guns blazing (so-to-speak) like I would now. But separating family members is a very finely tuned and practiced skill for this evil man. That is why I'm so very glad for the restrictions in my divorce papers.

Still, in spite of that it would not surprise me if he wouldn't start making his move with my boy when the courts would start to consider my boy old enough to think for himself. Especially as his mother still seems to think that he is a MOG and a substitute for the father that she lost when she was young. Not long after our divorce she started to wear another ring on her ring finger. Even though she hasn't shared one thing with me about how she's thinking these days it's pretty freakin' obvious to me from whom she received it. For my part, I would treat that damnable thing like Moses did to Aaron's calf and utterly destroy it with fire, grind it to powder, and throw the remains in the toilet. ( I made up the toilet part myself)

But to get back to this splinter leader, he has separated children from their parents even while they were part of the group by his doctrine. I remember little things that I wondered about when I heard Wierwille say things that now make me feel like he was striving with his brother Reuben over Rhoda's time and loyalty. In the "Thank You Dorothy, Thank you Rhoda" tapes that I heard a while back I remember Rhoda Wierwille testify in her sharing that Rueben was a good man. It didn't seem to me that Vic Wierwille took this to well, I thought I heard a little sarcasm in his voice when he thanked Rhoda for all her love.....

My splinter leader got his ideas of being the one and only man in the group from Wierwille. For me this is an opinion that I consider now to be fact. I'm quite certain that in his twisted mind he rejoices over every family he tears apart for the sake of this devilish little kingdom of his that he calls the Kingdom of God. In the long run, I'm certain that he will pay for it, but for now he thinks that he's the man and he has taught that he's the man within the group. Even his number two, a real thuggish bully goes with the company line that his own son is better off for not being raised by him so much as the splinter leader. I know this because I remember him saying it in order to further this view within the group.

Dear potato,

Thank you for that input. I think that any reasonable judge would see through my splinter leader's b.s. right away. I think that the splinter leader knows this and for the time being has gone hands off as far as my son goes too.

But as long as he has folks following him I'm certain that he is willing to bide his time and wait for the opportunity.


(edited for spelling and grammar)

This is the TWI top leadership game (part of it anyway) the best way that I see it. A lot of my perspective comes from my splinter group experience but fits many of your TWI stories IMO.

When Wierwille was in charge, he was the only one that was allowed to have real love and loyalty given to him. But it was inevitable that folks learned from him how to own people like this. When a leader owns the complete love and loyalty of followers anything spoken against him/her is automatically heretical. Substance is put away because for a carnal leader, playing the top dog game was more effective in terms of numbers and feedback.

When I was thinking this weekend about how my former splinter group leader has trained young women to defend him it almost made me ill. What a waste of a life, to be trained to give a sincere yet knee-jerk defense for a man who is a false prophet and a destructive s.o.b. like this guy. But they think they love a man of God..... BARF.

A while back my splinter leader's second in command said that in his opinion that most of TWI leadership's problem was that after Wierwille's time that many leaders sought to have their own followers like Wierwille did. This is a very good opinion to be taught to a second in command I would say! But I say that TWI leadership just did what Wierwille did. And that it seems to me that my former splinter group leader is comparable to Wierwille in terms of method, even if the number of the deceived is not comparable.

The reports of how JAL has acted seem very, VERY familiar to me, blech.

I'm serious about the nausea, it was hard to think about the things that I've seen done to decent people simply to promote the kingdom of a twisted man.

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JeffSjo    44
For me, one of the things that actually seems to help people is spelling out exactly what the promises are that concern the Lord taking vengence are. If someone trusts in the Lord, then I feel that may comfort them.

Simply telling them that the spirit is the comforter may only lead them into feeling somehow worse if it is not followed up by something more substantial.

In TWI the manifestations were taught as a way to receive comfort, but IMO people that were actually being led into actually speaking directly to the abusers and the abused were ruthlessly forced to shut up or get out. And IMO the manifestations became for the most part as worthless as lukewarm milk toast. BLECCHH

This happened because stupid and wicked men were committed to continuing their wicked, corrupt and stinky actions and either fooled themselves or others into thinking they had the right to crush honest people ruthlessly.

Yeah, I believe that the Lord will avenge these things with many stripes. But I was actually taught in my splinter group that they believe that Christ will raise up Wierwille the MOG and send Wierwille to gather together his spiritual children. The viewponit that I believed until I came here was I believe deluded and downright unscriptural because Wierwille DID THINGS that make it clear to me that he deserves the very worst of the Lord's revenge.

These things may comfort the wounded IMO if they trust in the Lord like I do.

(added in editing)

The parts about the "Wierwille will gather us together for Christ" doctrine that my former splinter group taught is that from the beginning it was a hierarchtical thing. Wierwille was the MOG and my splinter group leader is of course the faithfull son of Wierwille. IMO he was just as twisted as Wierwille based on what I've heard at the Greasespot. Time's up, bye for now.

Hi again! I was able to come right back after another spot opened up immediately.

It just blows my mind how many of Wierwille's twisted methods a man can absorb if they worshipped Wierwille and turned AWAY FROM THE SCRIPTURES. I know that for many here the scriptures are not the answer, but I gotta go with it and call it like I see them. I hope that they know I'm not saying these things to put them down.

Once I got here I recognized "All women belong to the king" as a reference to Wierwille Because the twisted bastard that runs my former splinter group holds this Wierwillian doctrine himself. That guy was very adept at figuratively castrating every other man in the group. When I wouldn't cave, he led my wife into hating me, and eventually moved her and my son out of my house behind my back. Their cover story for these events seem just as transparent to me as TWI propoganda does now.

And that is just one similarity amoung many.

You can tell me to forgive, but suffering through these things almost completely crushed me. The comfort I've received from the scriptures is that the Lord himself knows all their dishonest, twisted, vile, and destructive actions better than I do AND HATES THEM TOO!!!

(edited for spelling too.)

It seems to me that by Jesus own words He will remember and avenge how his disciples are treated.

In my splinter group one fatal error among many in terms of being prepared for the Lord's judgment is thinking that they were qualified to execute judgment in the Lord's name while the leader had his head so far up his you-know-what due to twisted TWI teachings and his own form or forms of insanity that he himself only compounded the inevitable result of his own problems by forcing his insane dogma upon others.

I remember in my former splinter group that this record was used to warn us off of any thinking that would tend to cause us to consider the negatives concerning Wierwille's life. As if exposing Wierwille's sin was comparable to uncovering Noah's nakedness.

I compared that with the Lord's warning to Laodicea in Rev. 3:18 about their nakedness being seen and thought that as far as nakedness being seen and the associated shame that the world needed to see my splinter group's twisted doctrines more than the splinter group leader wanted to hide under his rock while falsely claiming the Lord's blessing and sanction.

In our splinter group the leader expected the same treatment as how he taught us to treat Wierwille and any attempt to expose his fear, his bitterness at his wife, his self-glorification, or his twisted handling of scripture would be met by being "cursed" just like those folks who expose Wierwille for what he's been accused of. Rank and priviledge have their benefits in the kingdom of heaven for these turds folks.

(edited for clarity)

(added in editing)

Hi Watered Garden,

I'm really sorry about the things that you suffered through and still affect you. I usually refer to these things as bruises and/or wounds figuratively speaking.

For me things in my marraige things were tough. I was not ready to be a husband in almost any manner at all. The fact that I didn't commit the abuses that I grew up around wasn't enough to keep me from having huge faults and being a big jerk sometimes. Even in the best of circumstances with a competant minister things would not have been easy for us.

Enter my splinter group and their theology.....

While fighting for things to be better in my marriage I had to contend with my splinter group leader along with his toadies and goons.

Their faults were abundant in the false prophecy category.

Glorification of the leader was the norm. They even called him by the phrase "the Word in the Flesh."

Obedience by abuse went hand in hand with flattery. Whichever worked was the method used to bring about obedience.

All women belong to the king was the norm. Except they usually used phrases as "shepherd" and "Sheep" to communicate the same idea.

Since I was in disagreement with much of the doctrine and I had challenges in my marriage they were capable of turning my wife against me and she was a willing participant in the multitude of mind games they threw at me over the course of a few years.



(edited for clarity)

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JeffSjo    44

Well it's a new day today! I think that after I finish telling my story in this format I will just look it over for a bit.

Thanks all for bearing with me.

Pretty heartbreaking stuff there Skyrider.

Just this morning I was wondering why it is that I still want to see a fellowship that was full of all the good things when it seems plain to me that so many people who were hoping for good things were so brutally deceived by Wierwille.

I remember fighting for good things in my splinter group for a long time until it became clear to me that the leader was corrupt and deceptive.

It may be unrealistic. But I'm still looking for those good things that are true.

Maybe I won't see them until I see the Lord himself. SIGH....


That being said, I have to agree with leafy that some of this info is appalling. But for me, I am not as emotional about it as when I first started to hear these things. I am looking forward to Leafy's posts.

As far as personal experience goes I will share how it was for me in my little splinter group and let the rest of you who saw the inner workings of TWI decide whether or not they apply.

My splinter group leader viewed evey opinion other than his that I can recall as a spiritual threat. When I was right once he responded by comparing me to a nagging woman. You see, he got to keep his manhood while immasculating me even though he was wrong. My ex-wife thought it was funny.

Every TWI person that I know of that visited our little group he put down in front of us but behind their backs. Once, after a second corps family visited our little group, he pointed out how they and their children had the eating manner and demeanor of pigs. But he did this after they left. I guess he didn't want anyone to think highly of anyone but him.

Since I believe that my former splinter group leader learned how to do these things in the Way Corps and that he learned these things from watching how Wierwille operated I think that it a huge friggin mistake to think that Wierwille ever agreed with God on anything unless I can document every "jot and tittle" of his words by the scripture. But even then it seems plain to me that he would use these words for his own ends; self-glorification and covering up his perversions being the two that are at the front of my mind right now.

(edited for spelling and grammar)

I'm including this next one even thoough I don't focus on my former splinter group, the things that I'm applying to the here and now came from resisting my former splinter group practices. I already shared that the leader has spit on two people that I knew for sure. And he certainly had a habit of hiding too, so who knows the fulness of his abuses?

But it is by these scriptures that I became certain finally that he only wants the preeminence and the glory. He would not turn his back on TWI leadership practices. His blood is not on my hands, he had his chance to turn!

As far as that last conclusion, I'd rather be wrong. But he would have to eat soooo much crow, change his entire life, commit to fixing all the damage he's caused, tell his ten maidens that he's virtually ruined their lives, give up the ministry, and go back to being a husband to his wife. I don't think so!?

I've felt the still of leadership that despised people in order to maintain control of the group. In my former splinter group the despise and belittle reflex was just as natural to the leader as the blink or breath reflex is to most of us. And he taught his goons how to do it as he became more confident in his complete domination of the goons.


Mt 5:21,22 (Lamsa version)

You have heard that said to those who were before you, You shall not kill, and whoever kills is guilty before the court.

But I say to you that whoever becomes angry with his brother for no reason is guilty before the court [1]; and whoever whoever should say to his brother, Raca [2](which means, I spit on you) id guilty before the congregation[3]; and whoever says to his brother, you are effeminate[4], is condemned to hellfire[5].

[1] Bullinger lists this court as the council of three in the local synagogue. This is the least amount of trouble to be in, it gets worse. Note that undeserved anger is something the Lord promises will be judged.

[2] Raca - Aramaic for a worse type of despising a brother. "I spit on you indicates" expressing active contempt. Bullinger defines it thus- a contemptuous interjection, expressing the emotion or scorn of a disdainful mind.

Both Wierwille and my former splinter group leader seemed to do this on a regular basis, I personally vouch that my splinter group leader did this regularly.

[3] Bullinger lists this as the supreme national court, the Sanhedron for the first century Jews. This represents being accountable to a higher authority than the first and consequently being in bigger trouble.

[4] Lamsa says that this is Aramaic for being abnormal or brutish. Bullinger says that in the greek it is the word moros, from which we get moron, this is not like the common usage. It is referring to a birth defect. This is extreem hatred, ie., you are hopeless, faulty, and cannot be fixed you little worm. etc.etc. In the hebrew it is the word; nabal. This is the most perjorative of all the Hebrew words for fool.

[5] hellfire, bigger trouble than any, The lord will make them pay, big-time.

(all references to what Bullinger said come from my Companion Bible)


I had a friend tell me not too long ago that in his opinion Christianity in the U.S.A. has become nasty. I think a basic disobedience to these verses may be responsible.

Then there is the TWI habit of calling brothers "seed boys" meaning children of the devil. Now just because Jesus did this to certain folks doesn't mean that when TWI leadership did this to their bretheren that they won't be held accountable, dumb bastards.

For any of who might be willing to argue the dispensational reasons that you would discount these verses, I say, bring it on. Then we'll at least give folks a good look at whether the dispensational argument applies. If you can find any verses that directly contradict these I'll change my mind, but I think that I won't.

I don't think that despising a brother because of bad doctrine negates the harm to the mentally abused or releases the abuser from accountability before the Lord. these verses basically list abusive behavior in ascending order of the trouble that the abuser will be in.

Dear Kimberly,

Thanks for asking so plainly, it makes answering you very simple.

These verses that I've covered apply directly to anger that leads to mental abuse. I've reproved my former splinter group leader with them, and his goons too. But when it was all said and done they refused to give up how they despised not just me, but how they learned from TWI that such abuse was an acceptible method of controling anyone who did not automatically fall in line and fall at the feet of my splinter group leader.

Heck, a verse that he often quoted was the one about needing to "kiss the son, lest he gets angy at you.... etc. He thought that he had the right to treat people badly if they didn't submit to his will. And because of his effective method of leading people he showed my wife that it was o.k. to hate me for the gospel's sake.

Why, they did a good job of backing up all their actions with one scripture or another. But I believe that at it's root, my former splinter group doctrines only served to glorify the leader and bring my friends into a cruel and abusive subjegation where they weren't allowed to think for themselves. They would be abused whenever they showed any signs of challenging the twisted and cruel doctrine that this supposed shepherd fed his flock with.

Their doctrines despite how many scriptures they quoted were in reality- antiChrist.

But all that being set aside, I believe these verses as far as being commandments of the Lord should guide how we think of any brother in Christ. I think that when believers are cruel and hypercritical of a brother that the Lord will hold them accountable.

Even Paul's harshest treatment of a brother he makes very plain is only done in order to help restore them to a good place in their lives.

For any Christian leader who thinks that they can call a brother a child of the devil and beat them into submission they are decieving themselves. They think that they are beating the devil, but they only commit acts that anger God. And without chastisement I think that Biblically speaking, they cannot become forgiven themselves until they recognize that in truth, they are dumb bastards.

But with it being fairly common in human nature to despise someone with which we happen to have a serious disagreement with I know that these verses apply just as much to the forums at the greasespot for the ones who believe in Christ as they do in any other place in our lives. I hope that at the least they serve as food for thought.

I hope that I answered you questioning Kimberly. :)

(edited for grammar)

(added in editing)


This isn't even the most challenging of HIS commandments, but is challenging for me at times, and I have sinned too.

How about loving our enemies, and not just our bretheren. Shesh, the commandment that this thread is about amounts to spiritual baby food. Lest we, "bite and devour one another."

If this is too challenging for Christian leaders, they don't stand a snowball's chance in you-know-what.

(A little added for clarity)

Edited by JeffSjo

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JeffSjo    44
Dear Waysider,

I guess that if a puffed up minister is cramming an imperfect doctrine down someone's throat that they might use "make it your own" synonymous with "likemindedness."

Why, the way my splinter group went they felt free to destroy lives if someone's honest questioning led to them doubting the doctrine. Then they would call the one who refused to be likeminded such things as disorderly, or a heretic. Then because I (er I mean that one) was so reprobate concerning the faith they'd deceive themselves into thinking they had the right to dismantle that one's life through a series of manipulations.

To me, all these things can be dangerous in the wrong hands. It depends on who runs the show.

If I have any insight into this next category of doctrine at all, it came from my splinter group experiences.

I'm really glad that you brought this topic up in your post What The Hey. As I considered your post it seemed a very good point to run with in the doctrinal section. After all, God only knows that a lowly intermediate class grad like me can use some good old fashion lernin.

In Mt 12:24 the Pharisees accused Jesus of working through the devil. But check out the last part of the Lord's answer in Mt 12:31,32...... speaking AGAINST the spirit of God is unforgivable. I know that this may be hard for PFAL advanced class grads to take in but the Lord meant exactly what he said....duh! When anyone is working by the spirit of God and people claim that it is devilish they will be punished.

In Acts 13:9,10 Paul spoke directly at a child of the devil and God's hand was with Paul for all to see..... so where is your beef What the Hey?

In Acts 19:15 the devil itself mocked these ones who took upon themselves to speak at them in the Lord's name.


What The Hey,

As I've responded directly to you when you've put people down before it seems really good to me to now point out to you that speaking of devils when you just want to put folks down is playing with fire.

:offtopic: But then again, maybe not.

Once when one of my former splinter group leaders told me that they were going to check out a group of Messianic Jews that I had met I recognized where he was coming from immediately and said,"That's o.k., they're used to having high-minded gentiles coming around to check them out." hehehe

As this man was stymied for a response I walked away without saying another word. HAHAHA

My ex-wife believed this leader and his fellow thugs when they said that I was devilish. notsofunnytome

(edited for grammar)

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JeffSjo    44
Here's a stow-ry (a true one --- by the way!) about myself, and these *havens*.

So --- the year was (somewhere) in the mid 1990's. I was well out of twi by that time, and concentrating on playing music. Depending on the tune being played (I worked in a square dance band), I was responsible for either fiddle/ mandolin/ or rhythm guitar. We had a job playing at some dance down near the twin cities of Mnpls/ St. Paul. Believe it or not --- out of the clear blue sky I got a phone call from JAL letting me know that he was going to be at a *fellowship* about 15 miles where my band was going to be picking for a buncha folks kicking up their heels that night. It might've been snow on the gas pumps for all I knew. It was just too coincidental.

So I said --- "Sure --- I'll come to the meeting. I'll listen to what you have to say". This was back in the days when he traveled around the countryside letting everyone know about what twi was really like. He held his meeting at the house of Victor Barnard, and had a visiting pastor by the name of Greg Pharis (from a Georgia southern Baptist persuasion) teaching as well. Well -- Victor had his own opinions about the bible, and they didn't mesh with JAL's. Greg was a firm believer in Jesus Is God, and he didn't mesh with JAL either. However --- Greg was *teaching* JAL about personal prophecy, Victor had a house with a buncha folks familiar with twi, and JAL (imo) used those entities to get new recruits.

I was offered (strongly suggested) that I do the Momentus trip by JAL, but I looked him in the eye and said "Not for me!"

Greg gave me a personal prophecy, and it shook me to my bones. It was that right on. No spiders or anything like that.

I've got to admit I've hung out with CES (I guess they are STFI now), but them there days are gone.

The best thing you can do when being confronted with a *splinter*, is walk the other way. :)

I hope you don't mind me responding to this post once again DMiller,

Once again, I am soooo very glad that you walked that day.

When I first read this post of yours I was relieved. I was already thinking that going public with my former splinter group might be overdue. But then once I saw you post I had no reservations whatsoever about connecting these dots in our past.

I guess this thread in this section of the site is to help me connect the dots, along with anyone else who might be comforted or warned perhaps from seeing my testimony and some of the conclusions that I've reached because of my experiences.

If nothing else, I will take another look at these things and see how consistent I've been in my sharings.

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dmiller    80
I hope you don't mind me responding to this post once again DMiller,

Once again, I am soooo very glad that you walked that day.

When I first read this post of yours I was relieved. I was already thinking that going public with my former splinter group might be overdue. But then once I saw you post I had no reservations whatsoever about connecting these dots in our past.

I guess this thread in this section of the site is to help me connect the dots, along with anyone else who might be comforted or warned perhaps from seeing my testimony and some of the conclusions that I've reached because of my experiences.

If nothing else, I will take another look at these things and see how consistent I've been in my sharings.

Jeff --- I don't mind at all. Glad I could help (if you want to call it *help*). :)

I had been in aware of what JAL had been doing (back then - - - visiting any and all areas) due to two friends of mine (both now deceased) who were a lot closer to him in those days. JAL has a memory that's like a steel trap. He remembers names, and folks. JAL was the minister that officiated at my wedding back in 1975. He remembered and knew who I was 20 years later, even though I hadn't spoken to him in all that time. So that's why I was surprised by his phone call when I got it that day.

The gig we had was to be playing at some sort of rendezvous *mountain man* re-enactment. I was driving down with one of the band members, and I asked if it was OK to drop her off there at the job site, and then disappear for a while to go to Victor's house and be a part of the meeting. That was cool with her as long as I made it back in time to play the gig, and give her a ride back here to home after it was all over.

So I showed up at Victor's house (it was pretty nice --- if I recollect correct), and settled in for an afternoon of teaching. One thing I noticed right off --- Victor had an air of arrogance and a know-it-all-aloof-attitude that I didn't like. Greg was easy to talk to, and JAL was the same as Greg. I never did equate bible verses (Pharisees, etc.) with these guys. I figured I'd judge the book by the cover, and then let them show what was on the inside pages. Out of the three, Greg did the best job.

That was back in the 1990's. Seems Vic baby has gotten worse and more demanding since then. Of course I only met him that one time (I wouldn't know him from Adam if I met him on the street), but I would equate him (and his outfit) to mold growing off of the twi *culture* that spawned it.

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JeffSjo    44

Voctor Barnard....."air of arrogance and know-it-all-aloof-attitude"!?

You have no friggin idea ;)

I think that my new quote/post/thread speaks to this directly. And it is once again, part of my story.

Thank again Dave.

I've been thinking about excellence for a while. It's not that I have any excellence to boast of that I can think of, but I'm happy to say that my conscience is clear as it pertains to TWI and my former splinter group. But I know that for myself that boasting about my own excellence is often followed by me being put in a place with more humility. I like when relearning this lesson is easy, but some of the times where it has been hard for me to relearn this make for some petty fun stories.

I've been aware from my early days with TWI that it was common for Wierwille and Martindale to boast of their own excellence. And I was aware to that one of the methods of teaching people and leading them was to convince their followers of their own excellence. These people seemed to become committed followers IMO. And of course I remember Wierwille controlling people by telling them that they would be nothing without him. Martindale's own big mouth about the Greasespot statement was calculated IMO to play once again on their own perceived debt to TWI and this perception of excellence that was part of the bread and butter of TWI control, and the related sentiment of, without us you will be nothing, as well.

But the thing is, that while my former splinter group puffed people up in the same manner, I was often pointing out that for their own perception of excellence that they were in reality only mediocre or even comical. They did not seem to like this! But as I was trying to keep them in a healthier form of reality than the one that Barnard was leading them into, I fear I only managed to earn his hatred.

I can tell you all, that after a while it was kind of sad in this respect. I found bursting their bubble became like shooting fish in a barrel, I mean all too easy. But every darn time Barnard would tell them how great he was, or convince them once again how great they were and how bad I was. It was easy to take them down a notch, but they would over and over again climb to the great heights that Barnard convinced them to live in. That is as long as they in every respect give him the preeminence of course. Once one of his thugs and his wife brought Barnard a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine, and Barnard reproved them for bringing him the bread and the wine, because as the Apostle, Barnard provided the "bread and the wine." You see, he told them they were stepping out of line because of Barnard's exalted position. This same thug moved my wife and son out of my house and told me that I was no longer welcome at fellowship until this shameful situation was resolved.

I think that Barnard teaches people to be just as harmfully and stupidly exalted as he is. That is as long as they remember to kiss his butt in almost every way. Otherwise he will be willing to destroy what he himself built in them and made them.

Now I find that seeing TWI perceptions of excellence for what they really are. Those perceptions of excellence that are built on the same perceptions of excellence that Wierwille led people into tend to not be the reality. They are just unrealistic because what they were in truth was one of Wierwille's main carrots in his manipulation of people. Of course the "stick" that went along with the "carrot" sometimes came out as people being told that without them they would end up as "greasespots" or some such thing.

Sometimes now I have to remind myself that the easy thing, to take them down a notch, is just a reflex on my part. I remind myself to think and pray. Reflexes sometimes backfire and can do more harm than good.

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JeffSjo    44
Hi Jim,

Barnard is a 14th Corps grad who runs my former splinter group in Minnesota. I lived in and for that group for about fifteen years and had a pretty hard time of it, it seems.

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JeffSjo    44
Acts 5 (Tyndale's NT- 1985, Yale University Press doesn't have the verses in it.)

A certain man named Ananias with Saphira his wife sold a possession, and kept away part of the price (his wife also being of counsel) and brought a certain part, and laid it down at the apostles' feet. Then said Peter: Ananias, how is it that Satan hath filled thine heart, that thou shouldest lie unto the holy ghost, and keep away part of the price of the livelyhood: Pertained it not unto thee only, and after it was sold, was not the price in thine own power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast notr lied to men, but unto God.


If I recall correctly, at the time my splinter group leader was spouting this scripture the group was facing financial pressure. They at about that time had to sell a camp that they had bought and the leader even said once that we wouldn't like life very much if we had to sell his camp.

At that time I told my wife that these verses were not an exhortation to give everything. I told her that they exhorted us to be honest about the things that we had in our own power. I also told them that if I gave to the ministry it was my decision because as this record states, my giving is in my own power. My wife was not happy, and neither was leadership. I did not change my mind.

I found these verses enabled me to resist my splinter group's will.

I think that anytime they are used to enslave people they are twisted and misused. And as Rascal shared, they were used to abuse her. They were used to abuse me too.

If I recall rightly it wasn't long after this I came to twig. We were waiting for Victor Barnard to show up that day for fellowship too. As I walked in the sweet oldest daughter of the thug who later moved my wife out of my house said out loud, "Here's the Victor!" when I walked in the house. Her mother just quitely led her away. Nobody ever said anything to me about it later.....scmucks.

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JeffSjo    44
My splinter group leader was trying to convince one of my friends to give his baby up for adoption once. The baby was retarded and my friend almost gave him up. But he told me, that at the last moment that he couldn't go through the adoption as he planned. All I said to him was that I thought he made a good decision and then the property coordinator told me that I wouldn't be back there ever again or some such thing. This was not but a couple of months or so before I got kicked out. I helped at the butcher shop during deer hunting season and got kicked out toward the end of January. I haven't seen my friend since that day I gave him my support. What I'm certain of is that they considered me to be the bad guy for giving my friend words of support for his prayerful and hard decision.

In the end I considered Barnard and his toadies to be the equivalent of the central American tribes that did human sacrifice too. Wrong reason and wrong god for those child sacrifices for sure.

After a group of acceptable children went on a camping trip with Barnard the same thug that moved my wife out was proud to report that it was to God's glory that everyone seemed so healthy and strong. As I listened to this thug I could see why Barnard wanted to get rid of the retarded child. I felt like I was listening to a Nazis promoting their master race back in the day. And the fact that Barnard couldn't even manage to talk about my friend's baby at that time seemed to confirm my fears.

After they kicked me out I found out that my friends butcher business had been shut down. All the folks knew at the retail centers that carried some of my friend's product is that they were told the shop was shut down because of mad-cow disease. WHAT A CROCK! IMO Barnard is more than willing to manipulate my friend into a position where he'd lose everything as he did to me. It is how he rolls as the Apostle/ Word in the Flesh.

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JeffSjo    44
In order to maintain their self-deception my former splinter group had to destroy anyone that had an opinion different that the leader. Not just myself, but before I left their were five divorces among the believers. I remember another man who was willing to stand up to Barnard. Even though nobody was foolish enough to say to him that Barnard was the cause of his divorce he knew darn well who moved his wife to file for divorce. This happened about a year before I was kicked out I think. I'm sad that until after my expulsion I never really talked to this man to hear what they did to him. He told me later that he cried every night of his night security job for about one year during and after his divorce.

All the while Barnard was saying things to the believers like the locals were blessed by God just because we were around. and the youngest seem easiest to believe the false estimations of themselves that Barnard has taught them.

The young believers are programed to believe that Barnard has made them world-beaters. But Barnard is best at crushing people whose lives are in his control.

Once I saw him lying on his back in a new tent that let him look up at the stars through a nylon mesh. Two married women lied next to him with their heads on either shoulder. And the two gals' husbands had to stand there and watch this. One was the wife of the thug who moved my wife out of my house and the other was the wife of the man whose oldest daughter came to twig and said,"I'm married to the Christ in Victor." This man's wife was the one who told him that Barnard was his daughters' real father, being their father in the Word and all. Of course for some stange reason both men didn't seem to mind what happened to me. All they have to do IMO is to continue to let Barnard castrate them. But then Barnard is sure to let each one know that they are somebody now, thanks to him of course. IMO this is strictly undeserved excellence. But they sure seem to be willing to believe they are big men now, thanks to Barnard rescuing them from the Way Internationals mistakes, and being as he bills himself as Wierwille's true son.

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JeffSjo    44
Before I got kicked out a common phrase on the lips of the believers was Barnard is "a true son of Wierwille." Of course now I believe that he is a true son of Wierwille. Just a son of the sick and twisted parts of Wierwille. So I suppose it would be accurate to say that he's spiritually a son of Wierwille.

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geisha779    816


We are trying to place this guy?? What is his first name? 14th Corps? Hubby was in the 14th for awhile. . . can't remember him. VP was sick by this time and I think he died before the 14th graduated. I doubt he spent much time with VP.

How big is this group. Minnesota??. . . . What part?

Haven't they ever heard of Minnesota nice??

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