Leaderboard

Hi Robinette, Your posts have brought up some interesting points and after giving them some thought I wanted to address a few things. God does forgive – but he does not always remove the consequences of sin. You mentioned David remained king even after his sins (adultery and the murder of Uriah). That’s true but even though he was forgiven there were severe lingering consequences. Since he had done evil to another man’s family, King David would receive evil in his own family – the rape of Tamar (daughter of David by Macaah) by David’s son Amnon and then another son of David Absalom avenges Tamar by murdering Amnon ( II Samuel 13 ). Sometime later Absalom was rebellious – and quietly built up support, declared himself king and mounted a revolt at Hebron, forcing David to flee to Jerusalem ( II Samuel 15 ); later on Absalom set up a tent on the roof of the palace ( perhaps throwing in David's face where his adulterous musing began) and had sexual relations with David’s concubines to assert his right to his father’s throne ( II Samuel 16: 21, 22 ) – fulfilling the judgement pronounced by Nathan ( II Samuel 12: 11, 12 )…after his affair with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah, David wrote of his confession and plea for forgiveness in Psalm 51 ...the whole mess was not something that was swept under the carpet. == == == Moving on to your reference of Paul chosen to be an apostle of Jesus Christ even after he so violently persecuted the church – you left out the most critical life-changing event – his conversion – being witnessed to by Jesus Christ himself! Paul’s former life as a persecutor would indeed look odd on an application to be a pastor of a church. Who would hire someone like that? Indeed many Christians initially had a hard time believing this persecutor had changed for the better and was now truly one of them ( Acts 9 )…Paul even said of himself he was unworthy to be called an apostle – probably recalling his previous life of overseeing the imprisonment and death of Christians – but he could not deny the effect of God’s grace and forgiveness ( I Corinthians 15 verses 8-10 ) “The conversion of Paul, in spite of his attempts to completely eradicate Christianity, is seen as evidence of the power of Divine Grace, with "no fall so deep that grace cannot descend to it" and "no height so lofty that grace cannot lift the sinner to it." It also demonstrates "God's power to use everything, even the hostile persecutor, to achieve the divine purpose." From Wikipedia on the conversion of Paul . Again Paul's former lifestyle as a persecutor of the Church was not something that was swept under the carpet. One good model for handling issues within the church is in I Corinthians 5 - Paul brings up the immorality of one of the church members – but he devotes some criticism to the pride of the rest of the church members in ignoring such blatant immorality. Paul talks of the powerful influence of evil when it’s tolerated – a little leaven will permeate and corrupt the whole church. I believe this issue is revisited in II Corinthians 2 Paul talks about the biblical process of disciplining being successful, the person repented and it is time to grant forgiveness...again the issue was not something that was swept under the carpet - it was addressed publicly. If we look at Matthew 5: 23, 24 we find that reconciling with someone we offended comes before any other religious obligation - even worship...and so we see the point of forgiveness is reconciliation – to God and the church...and another practical matter to consider is what happens to both sides of the offense (the offender and the one offended) - if the situation or event is ignored and allowed to fester - there will probably be a festering of resentment, anger, frustration, etc. on both sides - further complicating things and compounding more "little" sins on both sides...and really if stuff doesn't get resolved people usually get on with their lives - but there will always be some "bad blood" in the family in the here and now...and realistically speaking - none of us are perfect - we've all got some kind of dysfunctionality going on in our relationships. I began learning about biblical counseling from one TWI-clergy guy in our area – he held a seminar for Twig leaders and much of the material was based on some videos and books by Jay Adams. After that we were encouraged to study, review and practice this stuff in our areas of responsibility (as a side note one thing that helped to broaden peoples’ horizons in TWI was when folks read outside TWI’s dogma entrenched books) ; years later – after spending two years in-residence corps training and being up close around top leadership – I began to realize there was a disconnect with the priority of walking the talk and top leadership. I was seeing their hypocrisy; there was a double standard in TWI. Those of us who were rank and file were expected to hold to the ethical standards of Christianity at all times. However even though they professed that they did the same thing, top leadership marched to the beat of a different drummer – doing whatever the hell they wanted in private – following the appetites of their moral depravity. See Matthew 23 on hypocrites in leadership positions...Obviously not something that God wants swept under the carpet. Jay Adams' big deal was nouthetic counseling. “Nouthetic counseling (Greek: noutheteo, to admonish) is a form of evangelical Protestant pastoral counseling based solely upon the Bible and focused on Christ. It repudiates mainstream psychology and psychiatry as humanistic, fundamentally opposed to Christianity, and radically secular. Its viewpoint was originally articulated by Jay E. Adams, in Competent to Counsel (1970) and further books, and has led to the formation of a number of organizations and seminary courses promoting it. The viewpoint is opposed to those seeking to synthesize Christianity with secular psychological thought, but has failed to win them over to a purely biblical approach. Since 1993, the movement has renamed itself biblical counseling to emphasize its central focus on the Bible. The Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling states that "The aim of Nouthetic Counseling is to effect change in the counselee by encouraging greater conformity to the principles of Scripture…Nouthetic counseling has been criticized as narrowly conceived, with a confrontational focus upon sin and behavior, which fails to deal adequately with emotion, grief, and suffering, and which lacks understanding of complex human motivations.” From Wikipedia nouthetic counseling == == == == Biblical counseling has always held my interest – even after leaving TWI. I have continued to study and read up on the subject since I try to apply certain principles in my own life (through reflection, self-examination) and being empathetic…a good listener…provide honest feedback and support…and mainly to just be a good friend to all who cross my path. I think one of the biggest drawbacks of nouthetic counseling – is that it is not a complete set of tools for dealing with the human condition. As the criticism in Wikipedia mentioned – it does not really acknowledge nor competently handle the emotions, grief, suffering, and motivations of the people being counseled; furthermore the Jay Adams’ strain of nouthetic counseling (as well as some other groups, like TWI) shun the disciplines of secular psychology/psychiatry and the use of medications for mental illness …I lean more toward an integration of the Bible and psychology – I tend to think there is some common ground and I also have a lot of respect for the work of mental health professionals and the medications used to treat mental illnesses - btw, concerning integration see Wikipedia - Christian counseling …of course, this is all just my opinion and I could be wrong. == == == == Hey, I was wondering - and I hope it's not rude to ask - What did you do in TWI? Corps? WOW? Leadership roles? Why did you leave TWI? What do you do now – fellowship wise? peace T-Bone out