Horse Called War

The big thing for me was just being able to identify when someone was just a plain as*hole and not feeling the need to wonder why or try to fix it. I used to make all kinds of excuses for people. Kind of like some of the earlier posts in this thread. Someone wants to get on a soapbox but that is kind of funny because she has her own little pattern I don't get the sensitivity policing. We're adults on a message board - don't want to talk about something don't. Spare us the 'tude. Song doesn't need to walk on eggshells and sure as .... doesn't need catcup's approval or anyone else's. Waybrain calls for the suspension of disbelief. When I first met martindale outside of a teaching session I thought he was the most arrogrant, self-centered guy I had met in the way. People were talking to him and he was so rude i could not believe it. He put one guy down. But I SUPRESSED that and made excuses for him. That is waybrain. That is the cultic mindset hard at work. A limb coordinator who gives someone a hardtime for how they are dressed but his assistant fc has worn the same suit for 10 years. BLIND. BLIND. BLIND. A limb co. who reproves someone for what they wore when they taught and then shows up two weeks later in jeans to teach a fellowship. Seen it happen. And then it just files away in your mind, and hopefully those things add up to enough inconsistencies for it to register one day what you actually dealing with.

it is a good discussion - no one has really answered the point about whether man is a three part being or not. That is the crux of why I started this thread. Haven't human kind had 3,500 years with the bible now? Is the three part being question that hard that human kind has not been able to decipher the cryptic language? This is a book written in language suitable to be understood by nomadic herdsman.

he would need to tell you alot. He would need to fill you in on all the stuff the other prophets didn't know. He would need to summarize the entire old testament into two laws - I mean his level of "thinking" was light years beyond anything exhibited by any of the old testament prophets. Here is a guy that is balancing keeping the letter of the law but preaching above and beyond the letter of the law. That in itself is a paradox beyond comprehension. The level of dedication he would have had to understanding all the nuances of application would mean that he had to ultra careful and YET supposedly by the gospels he was "unconcerned" with a lot of the trappings of the OT or at least he came off that way. And as far as natural man receiving not the things of the spirit of god - it doesn't say the man of body and soul - that is an interpretation of what the word natural is meant to convey. Why could that not convey "a man thinking unspiritually"?? Whether you have a connection with God or not you can still be a stubborn jack*ss. Look at the record of Eli and Samuel. Eli doesn't come off as looking particularly spiritual in 1st Samuel's opening chapters. This is just a point for discussion -

http://www.waychrist.com/scriptural_sharings.htm waychrist is pat roberge's site

All good comments - The thing that really strikes me here is; scholars have lived and died, generations have passed and it seems we still have not developed a collective cohesive position on some basic points. Why the difficulty? Is man a 3 part being or not? You cannot "prove" it by way pneumatology. Des anyone here give any credence to the documentary hypothesis and would/can that clarify some of these issues?

if the bible is true, then how can a natural man attain better understanding than all the prophets combined without god's spirit? Is the spirit of god overrated??? they teach that god cannot communicate directly to your mind so how pray tell did christ gain this ultimate understanding? Phenomena?

Craig /martindale taught: "J.C. prepared his whole life for one year of public service. It took that. He did not have the spirit of God until that opened." http://www.ex-wayworld.com/corps_notes/10_5_98.htm Can someone comment on how JC was created a perfect man but god witheld spirit from him? Wouldn't that qualify as being imperfect if man's original state involved having spirit? How could he then be the second adam if he did not have equal to adam??? if the bible is true, then how can a natural man attain better understanding than all the prophets combined without god's spirit? Is the spirit of god overrated??? they teach that god cannot communicate directly to your mind so how pray tell did christ gain this ultimate understanding? Phenomena? I'd call god granting unlimited phenomena to a natural man a stretch. that doesn't sound like tempted in all things like us. I don't see how there can be any other answer except he had the spirit since he was born. The dove had to be symbolic annointing. can anyone give a different conclusion ? discuss -

I just heard about rico magn*lli's counter teaching to the way corps re chris jordan's debt paper that was submitted to the bot. belle said she has notes on it - Belle if you are out there check your PM's -- Can anyone shed light on what he said in his counter teaching? (for those not familiar - you can find chris paper at waychrist)

jesus lindy, are you all right? hang in there - PM me if you need someone to talk to - I'm up

Many people feel things people tell them in cold reading by psychics are things no one could have known. Human beings project A LOT into the things someone else says especially when you think someone is speaking "for God". Not to mention Lynn MAY have mentioned things to this person - concerns etc... "Hey there is this guy I am worried about... hasn't been around for awhile or whatever..." Not discrediting your story here because that kind of thing is worth discussing but for those who are unfamiliar with cold reading and warm reading techniques and statements that can be true for any human - it might be worth checking out www.randi.org - One of the offshoots of the way/ces did a personal prophecy teaching on their website where they tried to clarify the subject. essentially, what I gathered is that they thought that personal prophecy was not "at will" as CES suggests. In the OT there were accounts like "and they prophesied saying..." but it was not really anything prophetic per say - it was more or less a reconfirmation to the person that what God had promised was going to come to pass -- like Elizabeth and Mary - when the babe (john the baptist leaped in her womb) without researching it - I think she said something like - "it shall be performed what the Lord promised etc..." One of the ex ces websites has a board where people post- mark sanguinetti etc... you might be able to glean something from the personal prophecy board http://p087.ezboard.com/fexcesfollowerspersonalprophecy

Ok, so... don't we only have so many choices? 1. God created a perfect man in a perfect world without death and sin - he did this about 4000 bc according to the geneaology of the bible. Just in a cursory view there seems to be some questions that need answering. Whatever was left over from a prior time would have had to been "perfect" or all life forms would have had to have been destroyed and God started "fresh". If sin is "in the bloodstream" then why when adam sinned did animals blood get corrupted? How could God's plan of perfect animals and man living in harmony ever have worked if animals reproduced and never died? -hey at some point that formula is UNSUSTAINABLE. Unless, someone out there is suggesting man was to care for every living thing and "cull" their numbers or that animals have a "smart sensor" that overides their instinct to breed... I don't know... I for one am getting tired of trying to "unlock" something extra. Putting aside self-delusion, am I really supposed to find something some countless millions haven't seen??? How about the thousands upon thousands of scholars who have taught, wrote, studied their whole lives... I guess I am supposed to put 1 solid weekend into Genesis 1 and walk away with the truth? You are supposed to tell me that we are to understand those hebrew written words BETTER than they did when they were written??? That there is some extra insight that no one over the last 4000+ years found? Or better yet, that Jesus, with a perfect understanding, unlocked the secrets to these questions with perfect understanding, but didn't bother to tell any of his followers? I mean, is there really some secret understanding right in front of us we can't see? Surely something as sought after as the origins of man is not the kind of knowledge to be ....ed away and forgotten. And just to throw the way in there - they claim that they don't put research into book form unless they know for sure. Well what does that tell you about what they know on Genesis? they don't know. they don't know. THEY DON'T REALLY KNOW. Isn't it possible that man - even if created by God according to Genesis, could not handle even the simplest scientific explanations? What else was God supposed to say? To me, it is getting harder and harder to accept the premises as given to me by TWI. If anyone can point me toward further info it would be appreciated.

wrong thread

yes Lindy - that is her. It is a fascinating read.

For anyone who want to read Chris Jordan's research on Debt that was submitted to the TWI board of directors please visit: http://www.waychrist.com/featured_writers/debt.htm Lindy makes a great point: Debt to TWI was a deeper, more scarring sin than anything they could think of.

Hey Lindy, It depends on what "administration" (haha) of the Way you were referring to. In the Way's "Grace Administration" Weirwille and company felt buying houses and leasing cars and property was no big deal. Just count the cost and makethe payments. In the "Skywalker becomes Darth Vader" phase LCM phase (whether he was ever skywalker is totally not the point - it's just for reference)it started out fairly simple - try not to go in debt. Which then started the - well leasing a car isn't "best" when 1+2=3. That ever changing formula became something along the lines of - don't go in debt when X=G4c+/- 0sdif0sojivsojdf.... ad nauseaum. Eventually basing their entire theology off of one verse "Owe no man anything". They INTERPRETED this to mean at no point could you / should you owe something financially. Except they couldn't answer the simplest questions like: isn't a one year lease for a home debt? -- to which if pressed they would say something like - "yeah but you can get out of it if you really need to." Of course that begged the question, couldn't I sell my new home, motorcycle, RV, boat if I needed to to get out of it? To which, they would never answer that question but deflect to your motivation in wanting to purchase the said item. Why can't you save and buy it with cash? It's a sin if you want something and try to purchase it without cash. Even insinuating you were operating out of lust and implying you might be opening yourself to "spirit possesion". The real truth of the matter is that all that crap was instituted at a time when TWI was strapped financially and didn't want to have to provide staff members the funds to actually get ahead in life and wanted to encourage their followers to free up ever more money to "plurality give". Then when LCM received his legendary "revelation" to make the corpse go full time all of the above problems instantly replicated to the enth degree. One of the gals here, I know her real name but forget her handle, wrote a research paper studying the uses of the words owe, borrow sin etc... in the new testament. She presented that to the ministry and they never even bothered to write her back. The conclusion of the paper was that what is a sin is to make a commitment (of any kind - finacially or otherwise) and then fall behind in it - that is what owe means. If you are "current" on your commitments you are fulfilling what you said you would do. Obviously, this approach would allow people to decide what commitments they want in their life and if they could handle them. Some of the people of the way would have felt a freedom to rush right out and perhaps make commitments they really couldn't keep. BUT that is what is called freedom of choice. The way didn't feel that people were "spiritual" enough to handle the truth so like mushrooms - they kept us in the dark and fed us dang. I believe I have that research paper on my computer - it might even be on this site - pm me if you want me to send it to you

hey Raf, I have had great success with Dell. The chassis is easy to access, support is very good and have had no problems with my box since the day I bought it over two years ago. My recommendation would be to go to ebay and find an authorized Dell reseller. these are the guys who buy new systems in bulk and mark them up a few bucks. When I bought my box, the Dell price was about $1300 on their website. My shipped price was $825. The guy I used was www.originaltexan.com but that was two years ago. In any case, authorized resellers have the same warranties etc... You can also find really good deals at the HP/ Compaq refurb site. just go to http://www.shopping.hp.com and look for the outlet link at the top right of the page. If you don't mind factory refurbished units you can occassionaly find a bargain. Myself and two friends bought Dell's from resellers though and have been way happy to the point where I don't think I will be changing brands anytime soon. For what it is worth, I also have an HP laptop - 3.0 AMD and that has been a great unit as well. My last four computers were Compaq, HP, Dell and the HP laptop.

Rascal - great comments - Why would a subject that affects all of us not get more "face time"? Seems like a pretty simple question - When did death enter the world? Is the Bible silent on such simple questions? Is the sum total of Bible knowledge actually: Adam sinned Man dies Sin according to the Way is "missing the mark". Weirwille tried to explain life before adam with his convoluted Formed, Made, Created "teaching" which simple research shows these words were interchanged. (Please see the PFAL errors thread Rafael started) Essentially saying that "soul life" in animals was not created in the 7 days of Genesis it was already in existance. Has anyone read or heard of a better explanation for the bible's teachings on this subject?

The Way is adamant about the Devil having the power (exousia - exercised power) of death. The view is that Adam transferred his authority over to "him" when he sinned. The Way also teaches that sin in the blood stream has deteriorated man and that world is in a sort of perpetual decay caused by man introducing this sin into the world. These concepts present some interesting challenges. Logically then, this would mean that before Adam: A) the Devil did not have the power of death B) or he had this power but it was taken away when adam arrived. We know dinosaurs DIED, so we have to acknowledge that DEATH happened pre-Adam. So we have to introduce C) death has happened "naturally" all along with or without the aid of the "devil" So the conversation gets intersting now: how and why was death in the world? Was death introduced to the earth because the devil "sinned" against God? To start to answer those questions you have to make fairly large leaps. Trying to rectify the genesis record of the world of animals in harmony and plants that were gentle -no thorns etc... would mean a worldwide death cycle that "cleansed" the earth of its pre-population. That is a lot of death to account for... So how and why was there death in the world if sin and its subsequent decay was introduced by Adam?

Dave, You said you need to save for a retirement fund... "Dandy Randi" as you called him at www.randi.org offers a confirmed $1,000,000 prize for ANYONE who can demonstrate the powers of oxygenated water as this falls under Homeopathy. They will pay for the double blind tests under controlled scientific environments. All you need to do is put up and fill out the application to start the process. Please let us know how that goes.

(I edited the title for clarity) After going through the advanced class a few times and and defeating the adversary a few times it has been hard dealing with thoughts of the "spirit world" and other paranormal ideas after leaving the way. Try as you might, you wonder if after leaving if the boogey man is gonna get you - it is so ingrained. This seems to be a common problem for people who leave the way. What I mean by "hard" is - the Way (in my time) seemed to believe that just about everything they ever heard or read about in the paranormal field was real. I don't doubt they thought they did "research" and VPW said he "looked into" all kinds of hooky pook artists - psychic surgery, ectoplasmic discharges, water dowsing, spoon bending and the like but something raised a RED FLAG for me. AT NO POINT did the way ever talk about how to spot a fake, or the means by which most of this stuff is faked or even mention that the great majority of it is totally and absolutely a complete scam, a scam to prey on the vulnerable and the easily fooled. Take snake charming for instance: The croc hunter on one of his episodes was practically in tears as he described the sham and shame of what those road side snake charmers do to their snakes. How they take out the venom glands and domesticate the snakes etc... Take "ectoplasm": Many of these people regurgitate swallowed liquids or one lady actually claimed the ectoplasm came from her private area - I'll let you make the connection if a scam artist could and would try something like that. The bleeding madonna stuff - where the gelatinous material "magically" melts - is not a spiritual phenomena. They even caught one guy squirting the statue with a water gun with the liquid in it. I mean come on. The truth is yes they would - and they have done a lot worse. Con men and scam artists are polished craftsman - sleight of hand and deception are practiced arts. These people can and do EARN a living off of deceiving people. Ask yourself honestly: why would the Way not elaborate on con men and their hustles? Why would they not at LEAST mention the fact that it was a strong possibility? You are teaching people at the Advanced class right? Imagine a Way believer, seeing a roadside snake charmer and asking or waiting for the "Green Light" to cast out an evil spirit. How many times has it happened that a way person got bamboozled and thought they were dealing with an actual spiritual situation??? and then spent meaningful time questioning themselves that they weren't spiritual enough to handle it? That is the stuff Far Side cartoons are made out of. But it isn't funny. These days, I accept the possibility, if the Bible is right, there could be "spiritual activity" but NOT after thinking critically about what is actually happening and not jumping to airborne conclusions based on nothing but emotion and the teachings of a farm based in Ohio. I urge any of you who have had the same type of fears and thoughts to check out James Randi's website http://www.randi.org/ - he is all about examining these paranormal "happenings" with actual logic, critical thinking and scientific research.

Hi all, Just thought I would mention that after leaving the Way I still haven't died a horrific and terrible death at the hands of the Devil as alluded to by the Way International. I was under a period of stress so intense I broke out in hives for about 8 weeks over every little thing. But you know, I took control of my emotions and my thoughts and that pressure passed. It is so difficult to see it for what it is when you are in there. Anyway, for those lurkers, there is life outside the Way.

hi Sunny1, About two weeks after than incident the Limb coordinator mentioned IN PASSING. I was so glad I heard him say it. Apparently he inquired about the comments up the chain. I do not think it was a public announcement to the corps on coprs night. Perhaps if someone posting here was there at the time we can get a first hand confirmation.

speaking of making money statements by the former pres -- he said on a fellowship coordinator tape that we need new people "because we need their resources". that was on a tape sent out to EVERY coordinator. He later "apologized" for those remarks at a lunch sharing which the way saw fit to comment on to way corps and limb folks but IT WAS NOT MENTIONED TO THE REST OF US THAT HAD TO SIT THROUGH THAT TEACHING. I still feel less of a man for not walking out as soon as I heard him say it. It was against everything I knew but I kept haning on thinking I was somehow not up to par. Boy times have changed for me.

pardon me for saying it but "these lawyers are the best" WTF is that supposed to mean? too many years of happy camper phrases in the way for me to listen to that here.

Puzzled to say the least??? I thought he made it very clear he did not agree with the nursing home? He specifically listed a reason of new surroundings being confusing as part of his main concern. He said 24 hour care in her known surrounding was what he wanted and his other family members. by the very nature of the english language how could you misinterpret that Harve? When the Way international says it is a family decision they IMPLIED it involved their entire family. If they had wanted to they could have simply said it was a family decision based on those active with the TWI. Wouldn't that have clarified the actual truth? No TWI wanted to make it look like EVERYONE agreed to quiet the situation down. This is one of the "spiritual principles" don't you know --- don't tell all you know. If they were just forthright they would save themselves a lot of headache but that would be too simple.