ozbirdau

Hi Bluzie Wow! I would hate to think that my kids would grow up and be afraid to talk to me. My ex-husband and I have two boys who were still very young when we left TWI. We spent some time in residence at Indiana campus before separating (while in residence - but that's another story). It horrified me as to how the children were treated at that campus. In particular a group of four 18 month old babies who were made to sit in a row and listen to stories or endure some other "structured activity". They were then whacked with the "rod" if they so much as moved a hair on their head. One of the four was my son. I was also reproved heavily if my 18mnth old son cried during the meal time preaching session which often went on for half an hour. It was unbearable. Thank God we didn't stay there long, I love my kids and that was nothing more than child abuse. It was made worse when I was transfered from grounds work to children's activities and was expected to be one of the abusers to all of these wonderful little children. Let's just say I was halled over the coals a LOT. I feel great shame that I subjected by kids to any of this type of treatment, let alone a whole life time. I know your parents must love you dearly. No parent wants to hurt their child. We were all brain-washed into thinking we were doing the best thing for our kids by not "sparing the rod". But sooner or later sanity has to overcome the illogic of it all. I hope that over time you can establish the kind of open relationship you want with your parents. Regards Oz

Thanks for explaining Allan. Love to you and your family. I think I might try and go to the "hillsongy" thing this weekend. There will be thousands of Christians there from many denominations. It's good to be over the fear of not hanging out with other christians. How narrow minded was that logic. luv Oz

"I for one still believe that the basics of what VPW presented (albeit EW Bullinger or whoever) is even today unmatched in most churches." Allan, How many churches have you actually been into to find out what it is that TWI is unmatched in? Are you sure this is not just a pre-conceived idea that you have because it has been hammered into you by TWI? You would be surprised at just how much of the supposed "new light" that we heard in "Twig" has been taught in churches for years. Regards, Oz

There seems to be somewhat of a pre-occupation in here. Can't quite put my finger on it....

I have found that what I have had to demolish is my ego. It is not possible to be right about everything. Only God is right about everything. I tried not hanging out with any other christians for 7 years because of my ego at not wanting to be "wrong". But because of it I missed out, and so did my kids. Since I started going to church. Where I do not necessarily agree with everything taught, it has been a wonderful experience. Because I don't care anymore about being "right", I am just happy about hanging out with other people who love God. I guess we can all ask God who's "right" about everything at the gathering together (or whatever). LOL

It is sad that such an elite attitude developed at TWI, and such a legalistic one. I will never again allow anyone to dictate to me who I fellowship with. Also, I do not believe that any group has cornered the market on truth. If I maintain this awareness then I can happily enjoy fellowshipping with many christians from many denominations, no matter what our doctrinal differences.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I approve of the sexual mis-conduct that I have since learned about after leaving TWI. Myself and others here in Australia feel betrayed that we invited LCM as an honoured guest to our country and he took advantage of some of our lovely women here, as he has in the USA. What I am saying is I did appreciate my early experiences in TWI, and the Word of God that I studied during my 13 years there. It can never be completely profitless to study God's Word.

I don't feel shame. We had a great time in Australia in the mid 1980s when I first got involved with TWI. There was a lot of joy and love for God and each other. We could discuss the Word with people from other denominations without fear of "contamination from debil spiwits", or contaminating the sacred household. In this country it seemed like things started to go haywire after LCM drew his line in the sand and made people choose between him and Geer. Everything he taught from that time on appeared to be full of bitterness and hatred for those who he viewed of as not taking a stand with him.

Song, No offence taken. It's sometimes hard to convey your heart and intention in a forum like this. Sorry to hear about your loss. I think it s**ks that TWI didn't allow you a proper burial for your child. Regards, Oz

Satori, Thanks for attempting to answer my question. I'm afraid I didn't follow most of what you were saying. :)--> I guess my brain is fried from too many years of listening to VPs classes. LOL. I did however relate to what you said with the following: 1. We wanted it to work. 2. Jesus was apparently saying it worked. 3. VPW, this "respectable" midwestern preacher was quoting Greek and saying it worked, and he gave us examples from his own wonderful life. 4. Our bibles were apparently saying it worked, in addition to Jesus. 5. If it didn't work, it was due to "negative believing" of some kind. 6. It seemed, thanks to the law of averages and our own efforts, to work enough of the time to satisfy us. 7. There really ought to be seven reasons, for spiritual perfection, but I'll have to get back to you. We all loved the sound of it, and wanted it to work so much that we started believing it actually did, and there was lots of so called "proof" to back it up.

By the way thanks everybody for your words of encouragement. :)-->

dmiller, "There is nothing wrong in believing God's promises for deliverance. But I do not believe in my own believing, over His ability to do." Amen to that. Do you think that VPW was just following the trend of the time with Dale Carnegies Power of Positive Thinking (I think that's his name), and just latched onto a good way to suck people in?

Satori, Yes there I'm sure there were and still are a lot of well meaning people at TWI (we were among them), but it is up to us to warn them of the danger of the damaging teaching that is STILL being taught at TWI. TWI could have re-examined their teaching content when LCM left, but they didn't. They are still promoting his teaching. WHY IS THAT? We have to keep plugging away until we get the message through. TWI as an organisation is corrupt and not a good group to be a part of. Regards, OZ

Wordwolf, "GOD said Job was "BLAMELESS." vpw said Job was to be blamed-" You are spot on about your comments regarding miserable comforters. I still can't get over the fact that LCM spent hours teaching from the book of Job about the miserable comforters, yet in another breath he would rave on about how some poor woman on staff had died in childbirth, and it was all her fault. Even when I was listening to it at the time, I couldn't quite believe my ears. But then LCM was the master of hypocrisy.

He was born premtature (28 weeks). He had lung problems. At 5 months of age he seemed to be doing well and we were all set to take him home from the hospital, but he took a turn for the worse and eventually died at 7 months of age (believe it or not it was on good friday the 13th April 1990). They said that the steriods that they had given him to boost his lungs initially had caused him damage to other vital organs. I don't think they use the same treatments for premmie babys now because it seems survival rates are a lot higher nowadays thankfully.

I was reading the thread about the law of believing being works based, and low and behold the minister at my new "church" (shock horror) was teaching on healing from James 5:13-16, whether we should call an elder or call a doctor. He pointed out that the greek word for "sick" in verse 14 means "without strength", and is not the same word for sickness that is used in other places. He also pointed out that the context (verse 15 & 16) is forgiveness of sins and spiritual wholeness, not physical healing as such. That is not to say that God cannot and does not heal, but it is God's perogative, not ours. I would also point out that four times in four verses in that section of James it talks about prayer, indicating the attitude of "I can't God, but you can". Physical healing is not always guarenteed just because we ask for (or demand it) from God. In 2Tim 4:20 Paul said he left Trophimus behind sick at Miletum on one particular trip. Paul had healed people on other occasions, but not on this occasion. It also speaks of Timothy being sick. How many people in TWI were made to feal guilty because they weren't "believing" enough to get well. When my first child died I wondered where I had gone wrong and why my believing wasn't big enough for God to heal my son. This way of thinking is very damaging. What are other people's thoughts on this subject?

The only reason why LCM declared the Word to be over the world was because it was too hard for him to control peoples lives on a global basis. He figured he had a better chance of keeping a tight grip on things if he tightened the circle of control. It is interesting that M Ad@ms is now IO Training Coordinator because he was one of the poster boys for LCM as the model leader. M Ad@ms as coordinator of NZ keeps such a tight control on his people that he dictates where they live, who they date, who they marry, whether they buy a house, which meetings they can or cannot attend depending on whether they meet up to his criterea, who they socialize with, where they socialize, whether thy have their bedroom door open or closed in their own home. Shall I go on.

M Ad@ms IO Training Program? Miceal I don't know if you read these sites, but don't you think that you have a responsibility to contact those that you hung drew and quartered during LCMs reign of terror and apologise, or at least try to set things straight, before you think about outreach issues. What are you outreaching anyway? LCMs class? Rosalies Class? How can you continue to promote a ministry and doctrine that came from a man that lied to people, took advantage of other men's wives. My God it makes me sick that he came as an honoured guest to our country, and we fawned all over him, and he was trying to have his way with not just one of our wonderful female believers, but numeros. I know it is embarrassing for you, but if there is any decency left in you, you should stop making threats to ex followers and try reconciling with them on some level. You cannot love God and hate your fellow brother and sister in Christ at the same time. I suppose all of this is falling on deaf ears though.