Steve Lortz

On pages 217 and 218 of PFAL, in a chapter entitled "To Whom The Word Is Written", Wierwille wrote the following:

"Romans 8 says that nothing can separate me from the love of God; and yet three chapters later, Romans 11 says that if I don't continue in His goodness, I am going to be cut off. What's going on? Look to see to whom each passage is written.

"Romans 9:3:

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

"Who were Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh? Verse 4 says, 'Who are Israelites....' To whom is it addressed? Verse 4 says to the Israelites, the Judeans. Paul continued talking to Israel. Paul wrote in chapter 10 verse 1, 'Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.' This is still addressed to Israel. In chapter 11, verse 1, he says, 'I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.' Paul was still writing to Israel. But in verse 13 Paul changed to the Gentiles in his speech."

"...What does it mean for a Gentile to continue in His goodness?... Unless the Gentile continues in His goodness by making the confession of Romans 10:9, '...thou [Gentiles] also shalt be cut off.'..."

Let's take this section of PFAL apart to see what it says in detail:

1. - "Who were Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh? Verse 4 says, 'Who are Israelites....' To whom is it addressed? Verse 4 says to the Israelites, the Judeans."

Does verse 4 really say this section of scripture is addressed to the Israelites?

Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"

No, it does not. It says that a lot of other things pertain to Israel, but it gives no indication that Paul is addressing Judeans at this point. It is *about* Israel, but not addressed *to* Israel.

2. - "Paul wrote in chapter 10 verse 1, 'Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.' This is still addressed to Israel."

Now a person might try to make a case that the "brethren" of Romans 10:1 are Paul's "kinsmen according to the flesh", and therefore this section would be addressed to Israel. However, if that were the case, then Paul would have written, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for YOU is that YOU might be saved." In this verse Paul used "brethren" as he so often did, to indicate his fellow Christians. The "brethren" of Romans 10:1 are "all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints".

3. - On page 212 of PFAL Wierwille wrote, "These two prepositions, *for* and *to*, make the critical difference between truth and error when it comes to rightly dividing the Word of God." However, in his analysis of Romans 10:1 Wierwille totally ignores the sense of these prepositions in the phrase "my heart's desire and prayer TO God FOR Israel". Romans 10:1 is NOT "still addressed to Israel."

4. - "In chapter 11, verse 1, he says, 'I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.' Paul was still writing to Israel."

Paul was still writing to Israel? Just read what's written... Paul was not addressing any remarks to Israel. He was using *himself* as an example to show that God had *not* cast Israel away!

5. - "But in verse 13 Paul changed to the Gentiles in his speech." Wierwille would have us to believe these are the Gentiles of Galatians 3:28, but Romans 11:17 and 24 indicate that these Gentiles had already been grafted into the olive tree, and that the root of the olive tree bore them. Verse 20 says that these Gentiles stand by faith. The Gentiles of this section are believers who came to Christ from Gentile backgrounds, not the raw Gentiles of Galatians 3:28.

6. - "...What does it mean for a Gentile to continue in his goodness?... Unless the Gentile continues in His goodness by making the confession of Romans 10:9, '... thou [Gentiles] also shalt be cut off.'..." Didn't Wierwille just say that Romans 9:4-11:12 is addressed to Israel? Doesn't Romans 10:9 fall within that section? How can a Gentile apply a verse that's supposedly addressed *to* Israel?

Within a very short span, only a little over *one page* in a book of 370, mostly within one paragraph, Wierwille managed to contradict what's actually written in the Word at least four times, and himself at least twice. These are not *apparent* contradictions. They are *real*. These are not the typos of heathen printers, nor are they honest mistakes.

When Wierwille wrote, "...verse 4 says to the Israelites... ...Paul continued talking to Israel... ...This is still addressed to Israel... ...Paul was still writing to Israel" and when Wierwille implied that the Gentiles of Romans 11 were the same as the Gentiles of Galatians 3:28, he was deliberately lying.

The reason he was lying was because he knew, that if we read Romans 11 as it was known in the first century, his definition of the church would collapse, and along with it, much of the rest of his theology, like a house of cards; his definition of the mystery, his scheme of administrations, his definition of salvation, his definition of holy spirit, his practice of grace as a license to sin.

Supposedly, back in 1942 God promised Wierwille that He would teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century if he, Wierwille, would teach it to others. At one point, Mike, you wrote that you believe the first part of that promise because of what Wierwille taught you. I submit that what we learned from Wierwille was not "the Word as it had not been known since the first century", but rather a "Word" that was concocted by John Darby in the mid-nineteenth century.

At some point in one of these threads someone quoted Jeremiah 17:5&6. Let's look at those verses again.

Jeremiah 17:5 "Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

6 "For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited."

I submit that much of the devastation and ruination that came upon those of us involved with TWI was not the result of the devil trying to suppress the truth, nor of failure to become meek masters of the collateral reading, but rather the result of this curse.

"Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man who trusteth in man [instead of trusting God, we trusted Wierwille and the other "Trustees"], and maketh flesh his arm [instead of walking in the spirit, we relied on meetings, classes, nametags, advances, conferences, keys, principles, guidelines, blue forms, trainings, general's suggestions, quotas, ministry calendars, micro-managed personal schedules, protocols, etc., ad nauseam], and whose heart departeth from the Lord [instead of looking to our Lord Jesus Christ, *we* got *our* needs and *our* wants met through the power of *our* believing, while TWI's absent Christ sat idly on the right hand of God smoking $50 cigars]."

About five years ago I publicly and specifically repented of doing these foolish (Galatians 3:1) things. Since then, I have tried the best I know how to turn my heart back to the Lord. My life has never been better.

You may not understand or appreciate or agree with the things I have written, Mike. But there may come a time when you recognize the curse. If that happens, remember that repentance is the way to recover the mercy and the grace that God extends to us through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Love,

Steve

Mike - My question is this: do you believe that everything Wierwille committed to paper in the PFAL and collateral books is God-breathed?

We can save discussion until your schedule allows, but I *would* like a "yes" or "no" answer to serve until then.

Love,

Steve

My original plans for today got snowed out, so I've spent the day reading Mike's threads here at Greasespot. Very thought provoking, to say the least.

I also, along with Oakspear, would like for you to clarify which writings of Wierwille you believe to be God-breathed, Mike. If I have understood the discussion so far, you said that some were, and some were not. When asked to indicate which were which, you mentioned "The Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India", "Victory in Christ(?)" and "The Gifts of the Spirit Class" as possibly representing material that was not God-breathed.

My question is this: do you believe that everything Wierwille committed to paper in the PFAL and collateral books is God-breathed?

Love,

Stev

I just went and saw the movie (T2T) for the 5th time last night. I went to see it four times during its opening weekend to help make up for all the slackers who didn't go until *after* the opening :-) It gets better everytime I see it. Plus, I'm catching bits of dialogue that I missed previously.

Re: Deagol and Smeagol - I've seen promotional pictures that show Deagol and Smeagol in their boat, so I think it was filmed. It will probably (hopefully?) be reinserted into the extended version of T2T. I think it will be put in where Frodo/Sam/Gollum are in the dead marshes, right after the scene where Frodo starts calling him Smeagol. In the dialogue between Slinker and Stinker, there's a place where the nasty Gollum calls Smeagol "...murrderrer...". I'm pretty sure that's a back reference to the murder of Deagol.

The only thing I didn't care for was the visualization of the wargs. They didn't seem wolfish enough. They looked like some big toothy marsupials having a bad hair day. I liked the way they fought, though. I've got three of the Games Workshop wargs painted up already. The models are better than the movie. The hair is more wolfish, which gives better delineation to the musculature. I'm going to run some skirmishes between them and the riders of Rohan using home-brewed rules.

I don't suppose I'm a Tolkien purist as far as minor plot points go. Watching a movie is a different thing from reading a book, so some approaches have to be different in order to generate the same enjoyment. How about this for a plot twist: the Elves get on their ships to the West, but Bill the Butcher and his cronies are waiting for them on the pier, and they all get enlisted to fight for the Union in the Civil War (seems they already have blue cloaks). Could you see the "Rivendell Rovers" brawling with the Bowery Boys and the Plug Uglies?

It's *all* just too much fun!

Love,

Steve