jkboehme

"...Behind the scenes, the disciplining was the REAL programming that was sought. Jump when they say "jump!" In house, peer pressure, sleep deprivation, privacy deprivation, and coercion were the real levers of persuasion and indoctrination..."

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I think in many if not most instances the initial foible was not a general lack of critical thinking, but that most of us were experiencing some transient vulnerability that allowed us to be sucked into TWI when our critical guard was down. Examples: death of a loved one, ending of a relationship, going off to college, loss of a job, divorce, etc., etc.

Then the big 'hook' was a strategically implemented destabilization of our worldview with replacement by the semi-resonable concepts {neoplatonic, hermetic, kabbalistic, etc., straight off VPW's own AC 'junk table'} that inhabit the intro level class. Then modeling, peer pressure, & any of numerous ways to covertly influence one's thinking were utilized.

I found out cult-like thinking and cult-like loyalty can also exist in families, businesses, and just about any other institution. Personal freedom is always under attack even in the smallest ways.

Yes, I totally agree. It's all just selfish, deceptive, manipulation & exploitation for the self-aggrandizement of the leader(s) / biggest bully / CEO / etc.

Per LG:

You can think what you want, but I'll take the courts at their word when they state their reasons for dismissal of the Peeler case and similar cases.

Unfortunately, LG, you are categorically correct in that ostensibly we must all take the courts at their (inbred, provencial, biased, dimwitted, cowardly, & lethargic) word.

Neverthess, consider a few examples.

The Roman Catholic debacle that has come to light in the last 5 years could have perhaps been largely obviated, or come to light decades sooner, by due diligence on the part of the federal and various state judiciaries if they would have willing to hear the cases.

The parents of Elizabeth Smart should have filed an undue influence case.

The 'lost boys' of the FLDS should all file lawsuits.

Others too numerous too mention.

In the USA, the overall mindset is that {pseudo-spiritual} religion is for the 'public good,' & whatever minor torts or even felonies that they commit, are acceptable in view of the tremendous amount of 'good' that they supposedly confer upon their congregants or perform in charity work. Even mensa-minded 'W' got on the wagon with Faith Based & Community Initiatives.

The court system apparently does not have the courage or integrity to pursue the small cultic bad actors, for fear of the legal food chain reaching the large denominational bad actors. Cultic casualties of small cult abuse (e.g., TWI & VPW/LCM, Peoples Temple & Jim Jones, Branch Davidians & Koresh, etc.), no matter how severe, apparently are not worth the time & effort of our taxpayer supported judiciary system.

We are legally expendable canon fodder of TWI.

Per LG:

If someone managed to file such a suit, it wouldn't make it to trial. It would be thrown out for the same reasons the Peeler suit was. The courts are not going to consider doctrinal matters.

It's not a matter of doctrine or First Amendment issues, though certain lazy, incompetent, black robed charlatans endeavor to hide under the skirts of Lady Liberty & make such provencial 'turf and dump' dismissal decisions.

The issues are exploitative manipulation (undue influence), breach of minister-congregant fiduciciary duty, willful infliction of emotional distress, fraudulent misrepresentation, among others.

It's common sense but please see God vs. The Gavel by Dr. Marcia Hamilton, JD, law professor.

In order to save your time, you will want to first focus on the two most pertinent chapters, which are chapters 8 & 9 (pages 203 – 272).

Chapter 8: Boerne v. Flores {pp. 203 – 237 with Conclusion on pp. 235 – 237}.

• The net result of the Boerne decision was to foreclose religious' entities arguments that religious motivation should absolve religious actors of neutral laws governing their conduct. The burden rests on the religious believers demanding exemption from a law to prove that the conduct sought to be immunized is not harmful to the society and individuals in it. In Employment Division v. Smith, it is seen that correct reading of the Free Exercise Clause is that an individual's religious beliefs do NOT excuse him or her from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate.
  

Chapter 9: The Decline of Special Treatment of Religious Entities & the Rise of the No-Harm Rule {pp. 238 – 272 with Conclusion on pp. 271 – 272}.

• The elimination of religious sovereign power by definition made religious institutions private, and therefore on a more equal footing with other private entities. The constitutionally relevant question is NOT what is best for any 'church' – indeed that question is forbidden by the neutrality principle underlying the Establishment Clause. The proper question instead IS whether the liberty accorded is consonant with the no-harm principle. As the no-harm principle has developed over the centuries, it has become an insuperable barrier for the claim that the Constitution can or should place religious entities above the law.
  

On 07/05/2006, the TN Appellate Court ruled that the judgment of the trial court is affirmed, i.e., the dismissal of the Peelers' case in 07/2005 by the TN State Circuit Court of Judge Marie Williams has been upheld.

Therefore the Peelers' case will be appealed to the TN Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court only grants ~ 1-5% of the applications filed each year in civil cases. The unique circumstances and the apparent constitutional issues might pique the curiosity of the court, especially in view of the increased litigation regarding religious organizations over the past 5 years, FBI top-ten Warren Jeffs of cultic FLDS not withstanding.

It appears that a decision will be rendered by the Appellate Court shortly after the July 4th recess.

Of all of the cases heard by the Appellate Court in that particular session in April 06, the Peeler vs. twi case is the only one that has not had a decision rendered.

Hi bowtwi!

Since the Peelers have the advantage of the Appellate hearing having been heard ~ April Fool's Day, with the two month 'anniversary' of the hearing occurring on 6/6/6 {06 June 2006}, hopefully good news will be imminently forthcoming!!!

Nevertheless, the Appellate court typically renders their decisions in 90 to 180 days, therefore a decision should be rendered between 07/06/06 to 10/06/06. Hopefully the case will be remanded by the Appellate Court {back} to TN State Circuit Court in Chattanooga for a jury trial, rather than the case dismissal via motion for summary judgement being upheld. If the latter were to eventuate, then the case would need to be appealed to the TN Supreme Court, & if rebuffed there, on to the US Supreme Court.

Typically there is no pre-announcement of the rendered decision, simply a notification by the Appellate Judges' clerk(s) to the Peelers' attorneys.

Per LG: (

Jim @ Apr 19 2006, 05:26 PM)

Freud,

It is within the realm of possibilities that someone might be a "plant", purposely put here by TWI to test and possibly try to modify Craig's image. Mind you, I'm not accusing you of being a plant, just that it is within the realm of what TWI might do.

Why would TWI do that? What possible benefit might there be? ********************************** LG, One possible scenario is that the PEELER v. twi litigation is still ongoing, with an Appellate Hearing just held on 04/06/2006 in Knoxville. TWI may well be testing the waters to determine what the current level of persisting discontent is relative to lcm & twi. If twi perceives the level of discontent {?anger, hate, bitterness} to continue to be very high, this will impact some of their decisions regarding the litigation, such as, if the case is remanded by the Appellate Judge panel to TN State Circuit Court in Chattanooga, they may feel that it would be in their interests to offer a significant settlement to the Peelers rather than to release the wrath of multiple Plaintiff witnesses on the witness stand. If they perceive ex-twi have gotten all mushy for martinpuke, they might try to duke it out in court. There are others, but I am tired right now........

As of spring 2004 LCM was neither attending TWI Twigs or HFs nor any denominational church.

As others have indicated, he has no remorse for any of his actions while in leadership in TWI.

Per Goey

Freud,

Excuse us if some of us seem skeptical of your story. There may be a few sycophantic Martindale fans still around who might try to post something like you have in order to get folks to feel sorry for Craig. It also could be a (sick) joke from someone wanting to stir the pot. We are not easily deceived.

Martindale did some very dispicable things and has yet to offer those whose lives he tainted or destroyed any kind of apology. Neither has he shown any thing like contrition for his dispicable actions. Seem like the man you described may just be on a pity pot. Sorry becasue he lost his kingdom and perks.

If you are for real, then you know by now that this man was not completely honest with you. Personally, I wonder why you posted this stuff here. What is to be gained? Sympathy for Craig? Not likely.

Listen to this and see if this sounds like the Craig you met ....

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/realmedia/prayers.rm

If he is truly hurting and wants to get a load off, then he should stop being a coward and be a man and come here and face many of the folks that he harmed. He knows what he did and he knows what he needs to do if he ever hopes to have any kind of peace in hie life. Hiding and running won't do it.

Per diazbro

Guys like LCM seldom if ever reach a point of contrition in their lives. The depression and sadness they experience is typically the result of having lost influence and not being in the limelight anymore. Their sadness and pain is based on their loss of stature and certainly not out of regret for having hurt anyone. Were LCM to be somehow restored to his previous position he would pick up where left off and might in fact become worse as he would see it as God's work and think "Hey if I were really that bad then God wouldn't have brought me back. Now I'll REALLY clean house".

I always think of LCM as the bully type who abused others and saw it as something that was necessary for him to maintain control over the situation. The fact that he had to resort to obscentiies, screaming, and hatred of others (homosexuals, non Way participants "corpses") shows only that his self-image was fragile enough to be threatended by any number of personal demons (in a figurative sense) and insecurities.

I am aware that LCM used to play up his jock image but he really didn't get much playing time in college so for him to be calling the shots at the TWI was catch-up time for him. Also LCM was very vain and when he started losing his hair I think he got worse - like he had to prove that he could still "score" or that he had to keep proving that he was "the prez".

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Freud,

My gut tells me that you are a straw man {or woman, ? Dottie Moneyhands @ UK} purposefully endeavoring to evoke sympathy for a narcissistic psychopath, LCM. Your approach would appear to be that of Eriksonian indirection and implication. No thanks.

Goey, diazbro, & Catcup are on the mark.

rhino,

How long ago did these events take place? I guess the statute of limitations would normally be what, 7 years?

Glad they are proceeding.

The events took place from 11/1972 to 07/2001. Preliminary legal activities began in 08/2001 with the case actually being filed in June 2002.

Interestingly enough, TWI's attorneys allege the Peelers knew or should have known they were being conned from the beginning!

During the Appellate Court hearing for entertainment of oral arguments on 04/06/2006, one of the three judicial panel members was 'having difficulty' understanding how one can separate religious beliefs from religious practices, whereupon the Peelers' attorneys offered this analogy which favorably shocked this particular interrogating Judge....

The Al Queda members involved in the 09/11 events held certain bizzare & mean-spirited beliefs, which were foolish but acceptable in the USA, as long as these beliefs were held in mind only. However, when they became involved in the CONDUCT of flying the planes into buildings & thereby injuring &/or killing innocent people, they incontrovertibly crossed the line between First Amendment protection of religious beliefs and associated non-injurious religious practices.

Hello See Me,

We are with you all the way in your battle against the cornfield cult!

Which legal firm is representing twi in this litigation? Who are the assigned attorneys? Just curious to see if it's the same firm {Baker & Hostetler, Cleveland, OH, office} and firm partner & attorney, Lou Colombo, that are involved in the Peeler v. twi litigation?

Baker & Hostetler has 10 offices in the USA & two international offices {Brazil & Mexico}. Note their website to see how this white collar defense firm assists dirtballs such as twit leadership to try to escape justice, at a nominal ~ $750 -$1,000/hour fee range.

http://www.bakerlaw.com/News.aspx

OM,

I will check into it. If it's available, I will either post it or have it posted, presuming it's OK with Paw et al.

JKB

The Peelers want to express their gratitude for the much-needed emotional support.

The hearing before the Appellate Court took place today from 9:30AM to ~ 10:15AM. The three judge panel was composed of Judge Lee, Judge Susano, & Judge Swiney. Both Susano & Lee were former plaintiff attorneys whereas Swiney has a background in defense. Lee is the singular female Judge on this panel.

Whereas, prior to the hearing, it appeared as though the proceedings would focus on the issue of the statute of limitations, in actuality this was a foregone conclusion in the Peelers favor and the intensity of questioning by the judidical panel centered firmly on First Amendment issues.

The Peelers' Attorney, Mike Anderson, did a superb job of both presenting the case as well as addressing the Judge's concerns on the difference, and the significance of the difference, between religious beliefs as contrasted with a religious group's actions, deeds, behaviour, & non-liturgical practices.

The judiciary appellate panel typically hands down a ruling in 90 - 180 days.

bowtwi,

As it is, the case has been dismissed from the State Circuit Court in Chattanooga by Judge Marie Williams. Therefore, the Peelers' attorneys appealed the case, which is why it is now before the intermediate TN Appellate Court. A three judge panel will hear oral arguments by Counsel for both Plaintiffs & Defendants on 04/06/2006 in Knoxville, TN.

Interestingly, this is largely an academic exercise by the three Appellate Judges. This is because the law clerk for the Appellate Judge will review all case materials to date & this law clerk, himself or herself only a first year practicing attorney, will actually write the opinion {decision} for the three Judges to 'review!' Probably ~ 90% of the time the Appellate Judges will go with the 'suggestion' of the law clerk, & thus render a cosmetic vicarious decision. Therefore essentially the Peelers will have a law clerk deciding if their case is to be remanded to State Circuit Court. Hopefully this law clerk will be aware & sensitive to the subtle power of spiritual abuse & not become befuddled by the irrelevant arguments of TWI.

Rather than the central issue being one of First Amendment considerations, probably the central issue before the Appellate Court will be consideration of the application of the statute of limitations. The Peelers contend that, due to TWI's systematic exploitative manipulation via deceptive undue influence, that they could NOT have reasonably understood the machinations of their spiritual abuse by TWI & thus filed a lawsuit before they in fact did in June of 2002. TWI will unethically contend that the Peelers knew or should have known that they were being systematically and strategically exploitatively manipulated priior to this time, and that therefore the statute of limitations bars any legal action.

However, this decision regarding the statue of limitations is a decision to be made by the jury, not a Judge, & is based on both mandates and legal precedents. For a Judge to make this decision would be a usurpation of the Plaintiffs' {Peelers'} right to have this decision made by a jury, who, via the jury trial process, is given the benefit of explanation how thought reform was utilized by TWI to purposefully indoctrinate and deceive its members, including the Peelers.

Hopefully the Appellate Judges will be intrigued by this pleasantly unusual case and pay very close attention to all the pertinent details. If two out of the three of them concur that the Peelers, because of TWI's utilization of individual psychological and group-wide social undue influence, did not know or could not have known to file the case sooner, then the case would be remanded to State Circuit Court for a jury trial.

However, if the Appellate Judges are feeling lethargic & thinking superficially on 04/06/2006, & really just don't want to have to put forth the work and effort to cogitate the case in requsite deepth, they can uphold the dismissal of the case.

Hopefully, the panel of Appellate Judges will be up to speed on this date, carefully evaluate the law clerk's legal analysis & suggestions, and reach a logical conclusion indicating an understanding of the reality of undue influence via thought reform & its impact of the statute of limitations.

Though very unfortunate, it may well be that Circuit Court Judge dismissed the case because she feels that it has no merit.

There are least several considerations regarding this potentiality.

Given that the Judge felt the case had no merit, why did she allow it to proceed for 3 years {June 2002 to June 2005}? Why not a much earlier dismissal? Of the initial five or so irrelevant obstructions that TWI's counsel advanced, the Peelers prevailed. Then, the jury trial date was postponed two or three times. It seems to me, that at that point, with the Judge out of fallacious 'reasons' for allowing delay in the trial, her last ditch option was to terf & dump the case to the Appellate court. This would appear to be more so in the realm of unconscionable laziness, cowardice, fear of personal judicial incompetence, and disrespect for the Plaintiffs' time and 'uncomfortable' lack of closure.

Nevertheless, the possibility remains that the Judge does in fact believe that the case has merit and desires to obviate later attempts at irrelevant appeal by TWI; thus, she is garnering as much legal external validation for the case as possible prior to the jury trial.

If the case lacked merit, why did Federal District Court Judge Carter remand the case back to State Circuit Court, rather than dismissing it from the Federal system?

If the case in fact lacks merit, then via metonomy {of the part for the whole, the Peelers being the ex-twi rank and file part representing the whole body of ex-twi rank and file TWI members}, all those individuals who have voiced legitimate complaints both here and at Waydale, must also lack merit. I seriously doubt this is the case, as this Forum reveals with much painful reality and pathos.

Hi bowtwi,

The proceedings on 04/06/06 will be somewhat preliminary. This hearing will be before a panel of 2 Appellate Judges who will determine, based on the evidence presented by both sides, whether to remand the case back to TN State Circuit Court, or whether to uphold the previous Circuit Court decision to dismiss the case.

Many, but not all, observers conclude that the Judge for the Circuit Court, Judge Marie Williams, felt intimidated by TWI & their attorneys' attempts to make it appear that the issues in the case involved First Amendment concerns. She ostensibly felt better to get the opinion of the Appellate Court and have that in her back pocket prior to proceeding with a jury trial in her Circuit Court.

Previously she allowed the case to be re-directed {at TWI's request} from her State Circuit Court to Federal District Court, but the Federal Judge logically remanded the case back to her State Circuit Court.

Aside from Judge Williams seeking external validation, one would also have to consider such 'soft' judicial issues such as case complexity-simplicity, convenience-inconvenience in the court's schedule, confidence-apprehension based on the Judge's experience. In light of these latter considerations, it is conceivable that the dismissal was simply a 'dump and terf' of the case for the sake of convenience.

Another consideration is that both firms for TWI, Baker & Hoestetler, as well as the Chattanooga firm of Miller and Martin, are very 'connected' politically.

I guess I am saying these things because I just finished reading the court records on the Peeler case. Rosiefox Riverpuke is such a liar. She claims several things in that court record that I know for a fact are lies

I would have to presume that on 04/06/2006, in a hearing before the TN Appellate Court in Knoxville, those attorneys assigned to represent TWI will once again refan the flames of Rosie et al's misrepresentations. I guess we will see if the facts of the rank and file experience as presented by the Peeler's Counsel will prevail over TWI's conveniently promoted illusions. At least the hearing is close to April Fool's day.

ex10,

You are right-on!

Later on, I will get into the New Thought Movement from originator P.P. Quimby {~! 1830} to the immediate proximate authors and movments that lazy VPW plagiarized.

Interesting that JAL suggested this to you. I came upon it several years ago by tracing down bibliographical references and then reading those, etc.

I will get into it a somewhat more after the current review on Gnostic dualism, but there was a body of 'success' literature that came about just after 1900. The most influential of all of these publications was, The Power Book Library, by Frank Haddock (1907).

The book I will review at that time will be, The Positive Thinkers: Religion as Pop Psychology from Mary Baker Eddy to Oral Roberts, by Dr. Donald Meyer, 1965, reissue 1980 by Pantheon/Random House. {original title of the 1965 book, The Positive Thinkers: A Study of the American Quest for Health, Wealth, and Personal Power from Mary Baker Eddy to Norman Vincent Peale}.

This book, in addition to, The History and Philosophy of the Metaphysical Movements in America, by J. Stilson Judah, will complete the core of the material regarding the sources from which VPW stole his material.

{That is, in addition to Modern Esoteric Spirituality already reviewed, and The Other God: Dualist Religions...}

Per catcup:

In light of that statement and Wierwille's track record, I do not believe Victor Paul Wierwille has a moral or ethical leg to stand on.

With the mathematical exactness of esoteric arithmosophy and alchemical scientific precision of gnostic dualism, that LEG upon which VPW stood somewhat erect before the anticipated bema, like a hand in a (love)glove, was the meager member of his {quasi-spiritual} 'middle man,' dangling, as it were, most precipitously from the patriarchal mogfart, with a view and even a further beaver's eye view to the perfuncting of the supine estrogenic epistles……….

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I just had to say it before therightreverendtommietuttledid.

Hi satori001:

You hit the nail on the head: a good synopsis of much of the thread would indeed be, ‘commitment breeds commitment.’

It can be utilized for good or evil. I would now love to use some of my funky brackets but I will exercise self-control in all disciplined training, and simply state that TWI by far & away chose the latter course of action/conduct/practice/deed/behavior. TWI’s approach in its utilization of ‘commitment’ was a matter of exploitative manipulation.

Hello, laleo:

Here are some attempted answers to address your additional concerns. Once again I certainly appreciate your close reading of my thread.

“…So what is "criminal" and requires federal intervention? If I'm understanding you, you say:

1. covert psychosocial exploitative manipulative persuasion

2. destablization and "unfreezing" a person's true historical identity 3. cultic pseudo-self and pseudo identity…”

What is criminal, you ask? My use of the world ‘criminality’ was in the sense of hyerbole. That is, knowing the phenomenally egregious unethical practices of TWI, their actions/deeds/behaviors/practices seem ‘criminal’ to me. Technically their inappropriate conduct is covered by laws dealing with tort offenses. Hence some of the former as well as the ongoing tort litigations.

Yes, Senator Dole’s committee could have come up with a crisp definition, not of one’s true historical identity or the synthetic cultic pseudo-self, BUT rather an expanded definition to delineate the characteristics of totalitarian covert packaged persuasion (thought reform) as well as some causally related elements of associated harm/damages. This then would have provided a much ‘cleaner’ legal methodology in which to litigate these violations of the newly generated tort law.

Hi laleo,

I appreciate your interest in the thread as well as your thoughtful considerations.

Now on to your questions in the first post:

“…If that's the case, then it seems to me that it isn't the "enforced dependency" that is to blame, but the human condition. If being involved in The Way was utterly beyond my control, what IS within my control…?"

I think the primary issue at the time of TWI recruitment is the transient vulnerability that many of us were experiencing. This made us more susceptible to TWI’s recruitment tactics [Christian Motivational Techniques; Witnessing & Undersheperding; etc]. So, many of us were in the midst of ‘the human condition’ but simply were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

“…If all was evil and wrong and orchestrated madness, and we were helpless, utterly, truly hopelessly helpless to resist it, then what hope is there of ever finding a better place…?”

The hope of finding a better place begins with the information at one’s disposal of what to avoid, viz., high demand totalitarian types of groups/movements such as TWI. If one has already has had a ‘bad experience’ in one of these cults, then, as a Sage once eloquently explained,

“…Lessons sometimes come hard in life. And they cost us. It's unfortunate that sometimes ‘enlightenment’ comes through hardship and loss, through one slow, painful realization after the other, until we finally recognize that we are on the wrong course, that the happiness we seek lies somewhere else, and that it is only through a long journey in the darkness that we are able to find the light…”

Kinda reminds one of Joseph Conrad’s, Out of the Heart of Darkness, does it not?

Per satori001(from the Cognitive Dissonance thread):

I think there's a point of no return, after which you are trapped by your commitment to the lie.

Not that you think it's a lie. You don't. Just the opposite. You don't see it clearly, but you really, really believe it's true.

So when that lie (Vic Wierwille's false doctrines, for instance) becomes the exalted TRUTH, anything which contradicts it must be a lie. And if the circumstances of your life contradict exalted TRUTH, then your life is a lie.

What does that mean?

I don't know, but it's depressing.

This post has been edited by satori001: Today, 12:16 AM