BluzieQ

Lindy, Hi. I am off to the My Story section to look for yours. Thanks! Also, thanks for the summary of why/how you left. Very interesting. Yeah - I remember the VP saying, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it." Haha. As a little kid, I thought that was really funny. You wrote: I eventually realised that I didn't believe the Bible was the revealed Word of God anymore than any other book claiming the same was .... As I have moved on in a very different direction (agnostic) I have come to think that perhaps I never really believed most of it." I had the same realization after I went off to college. To the extent I ever believed it, I think I believed it more as a "safety net" (well, I'll just believe it just in case it IS true). I have gone in a similar direction ... I'd call myself agnostic, yet spiritual if that makes any sense. There are things I believe based on my own observations and hunches and even various religious teachings BUT I fully admit they could be wrong. The only churches I can handle being in are Unitarian Universalist and Quaker meetings (which are basically just a half hour of silence with various people standing up and sharing their thoughts when they feel like it.) You wrote: "As to having a whole family in and leaving, my wife is amazed at how well I just moved on. I don't know why I was able to do it but I did. I did have the support of my wife (who wasn't my wife at the time), father and his wife, and many of my good friends from college." That sounds like a very solid support system. I'm sure it brought you closer to your wife and the others who helped you during that time. You wrote: "Thank you for saying it took guts. The closest thing that I can compare it to is maybe a gay person coming out to their family and friends." Sure! I do think that's a pretty good comparison. (Judging by the full-on spittle-flying rage my Dad reacted with when I told him I no longer believed the Way stuff.) You said: "I did have a then friend call me a coward for not discussing my issues with them, but I knew that none of them had the answers to my reasons and any reason I gave them would just be used against me ie. "see he's possessed". So I said F*^K em', let them think what they will. They will think the same regardless of what I say." I think that's the sanest thing you can do. If you are not into debating the doctrine, and they try to talk to you, that's probably all they'd do anyway. If you're coming from two totally different places, it might be impossible to try to talk anyway. After my dad exploded at me, I told him I wouldn't talk specifics about my beliefs unless he could be respectful of my beliefs and treat them as valid and not try to push Way beliefs on me. He never did take me up on it, but at least it kept him out of my face about it. Anyway, thanks. You gave me a lot to think about. BluzieQ well that was longer than anticipated, but read my story that has more details in it....and is much longer. Maybe it'll help in some way and like I said you can always email me if you like.

Thelema, Yeah - college definitely helped liberate me from the "mind-bending grip of the way" (I like that!) I think it was the physical distance from my parents as much as being exposed to new ideas and people who wanted to discuss them and didn't think they had all the answers. I love that LCM encouraged that - I guess it really backfired for him :)--> But how fortunate for the Way kids like you who were able to get to university. It's funny you mention travel ... I did that too. I got an internship in Buenos Aires after college, and I ended up staying there for two years and then traveling around South America. I had always wanted to travel, but I have to say that it was in part driven by a feeling that I needed to *get away* and have space to practice thinking on my own and living my own life. Well, I think you've got a really good attitude about the whole thing and I'm glad your Way-following family members like being around you so much. I'm sure it helps them to see you doing so well... good for you :)--> I am doing really well too - and that definitely helps with my family, though I think they're in denial about my not believing the Way stuff anymore. It's been several years since I had the confrontation with my Dad about it, and I think he might now think it was a "phase" I was going through and that he'll be able to get me back into it. When he visited me just recently, we were talking about some of the good things going on in my life (bought a pretty house, have a nice boyfriend, writing career going well) and he commented that I must be "really practicing the believing." I think in his mind he really has to fit everything in neatly to what he believes - he can't admit that I'm NOT "practicing the believing" (at least, not in the Way/Christian sense) AND that everything's going great for me. I also worry about what would happen if something bad happened to me ... it's purely hypothetical, but it makes me upset to think that if something bad were to happen to me, my Dad and Mom would take it as proof that "that's what happens to people who are off the word." Anyway, thanks for your post! BluzieQ

Hi again everyone, I am still really enjoying reading all your posts and the many points of view. Thank you all. ozbirdau -- I think you're lucky (oops!) that you got out while your boys were still young. Good for you. I can't believe the treatment of the children you described on the Indiana campus. Good for you for sticking up for the kids though even if it meant you got "reproved." And I do know that the parents are doing what they think is best at the time, sadly ... And thanks for your encouragement re: my parents. coolchef - thank you ... and i bet your kids do have great santa memories. dmiller - You make a very good point about how different TWI is today...I've gathered a lot about how it's changed from reading here and other sites. After my parents stopped going to fellowship, they were pretty tightlipped, but I gathered they knew about some problems with Martindale, and that the way had changed somewhat. I don't know if they know specifically about the change in doctrine. Since for so long we've had the unspoken agreement not to talk about TWI or "The Word," I haven't been able to glean much. But when my Dad recently started going on his "Way kick" again and sent me a long e-mail about how "blessed" he is to have read the PFAL book again, etc., and asking if I'd like to see it, I e-mailed back casually asking whether he and my mom ever think of re-joining the Way and what's going on with the Way now, anyway. He didn't repsond for several days, and I could tell he was probably thinking about what to say. He finally replied that the Way had "gone through a big split during some difficult times after Dr. Wierwille passed away." He went on to write that "Many of the people were not willing to renew their minds and The Way as it is now is just not the same." He says that he and my mom are content to "study on their own" for now because "God is personal as long as you know his Word and believe that all the principles still work." And he says, "It's great to operate the principles to understand many of the reasons things are the way they are on earth right now." When he was here visiting and he tried to talk to my boyfriend about the Way, he said that the Way is supposedly thriving in Europe and that ironically the Europeans were the only ones able to keep it together - and he mentioned Chris Geer, whose name I've seen come up a lot around here. Sooo, I think my parents know enough not to try to re-join The Way itself, but that they still believe that everything VPW taught and wrote was "The Truth". I'm sure that if they were confronted with knowledge of things going on now in The Way, it would all be the fault of Martindale and people who didn't "renew their minds," but VPW is king. So they're in that camp. I don't think it's a matter of whether they're in a group or not, though, I feel like they're still "in" the cult because the teachings still control the way they think. Hope that answers your questions! BluzieQ

Hi Belle, Thanks for the welcome, and I love your posts! Yum - danish sounds good :)--> Anyway, Just wanted to say I read your story on the My Story section and was amazed. You really stood up for yourself and for what you thought was right. I'm very sorry you lost your marriage over it. But glad you're doing so much better than when you were "in." Thanks for the book recommendation. That might be just what I need to learn how to frame questions that won't put my family on the defensive... See ya around, BluzieQ

Hi Zshot, You said:" As I am sure that you have noticed, being "likeminded" is not required for being or posting here." I have noticed and I think it's great! Everyone seems very accepting regardless of the differences. Thanks for the welcome.

Hi again, Thanks for all of your replies -- and for the offers of coffee. I'll take a double latte ;)--> Coolchef - I agree. It doesn't feel productive to talk to them. At the same time it feels bizarre to ignore this whole huge topic. I do continue to love them and for the most part we have a decent relationship. Other than the little issue of us not really knowing each other on a deep level... Cindy! - Thanks for the welcome and the suggestion of talking to my therapist about how to broach the topic. That's a really good idea. Bluzeman - I like your name too! Waterbuffalo - I agree with what you said about learning from a parent's mistakes - it can be really valuable. I try to remind myself that if I hadn't gone through all the Way junk I wouldn't be at the point where I am today, and I'm pretty happy with where I am today. It's hard not to feel some anger, though, that they *still* are trying to push this stuff on me. Rascal - Wow, 17 is very young ... you were pretty much a kid too. How did you first learn about/join TWI? It does cross my mind that my parents might decide I'm "possessed" - especially after the way my dad was talking so much about 'devil spirits' recently when he and my mom visited me. And I have thought a lot about what it would be like for them to realize that the beliefs they've held their entire adult lives are wrong ... it would be very hard and painful. I almost wonder if they'd even be able to handle it, to come to terms with it. I'm almost afraid of what would happen if I pushed them to look at the facts. They are very, very emotionally invested in the TWI doctrine and believing only they and a few others are special and have "the truth" (as I'm sure most Way followers are.) I'm sure it would be embarrassing to have to face it ... and I kind of don't want to be the smart-mouthed daughter forcing them to face it (or make up elaborate reasons why not to face it.) I don't think they've found a splinter group though. They're in a really small town and I think they just read the stuff on their own. I liked what you said about its being easier to just make excuses for the ministry and the doctrine's failure... I think that's very true. I have noticed that the same stuff in life (bad and good) that happens to everybody on this planet happens to the people in TWI just the same ... the difference is that the people in TWI and those who still follow its doctrines are very, very good at making up elaborate stories to make the events mean anything they want them to mean...it's truly incredible sometimes. They're definitely playing mental Twister. The same stuff that happens to anybody happens to my dad. He and my mom are no more prosperous or fortunate than any other average person, yet in his mind they're "operating the principles." It's like a spritual soap opera in their minds or something ... If something bad happens, it's the adversary trying to get to them! If something good happens, they're believing big! Ugh. Anwyay, thanks for your post...you have a lot of good insight. TimTim - Sounds like you have a good arrangement that works for you and your family. The "unspoken rule" thing works wonders, doesn't it!? LindaZ - Thank you so much for your thoughts. I know it can't be easy for a parent who thought they were doing the right thing and then realized they weren't. I think it's great that you and your son have an open enough relationship where you can talk about these things. Radar - Your post was really encouraging. It feels good to know there are other who have been through this! Lindy - Thank you. I can really relate to what you wrote. It really is a struggle, isn't it? Re: the whole shallow conversation thing -- It feels strange to not really know my parents - I mean, who *they* are, what *they* think because all I've ever gotten is what TWI thinks. It's so strange - only in reading this board am I realizing that so many little things I had thought were just quirks of my parents or little oddities particular to them are actually TWI teachings! (Ie; they've always had disparaging comments to make about people who go to therapy ... we weren't allowed to have "big" pets but could have small ones ... I was told that there was no Santa ... they were really into health food) It really freaks me out - I am wondering a lot what my family would have been like had they never encountered the Way. I think it's great that you are making progress in your relationship with your family, in being able to have conversations with them and to discuss things. I'm sure it's slow (and delicate) going. Can I ask what it was that finally made you decide to leave TWI while your family stayed in? That must have taken a lot of guts with so many family members involved. And thanks for your suggestions on how to bring this stuff up with my parents...I appreciate it. And thanks again to you all. It's very comfortaing to talk with you all and hear your points of view and know others have come through this okay ... BluzieQ

Hi everyone, I'm very new here - this is my first post! I've been reading the posts here over the past month or so - very, very enlightening. I'm so glad this forum is here. I'm curious - is there anyone else here who was raised in The Way? If so, I'd love to hear your experiences. My parents got involved in The Way in the early 70s in Colorado when I was a baby. (I think someone knocked on their door and 'witnessed' to them.) After they moved back to their home state of Ohio (Parma area), we went to fellowship all the time, went to Rock of Ages, I had to take PFAL and all that stuff. I guess I believed the stuff at one time (scared not to). I remember once we were riding in the car at night and there was heat lightning, and my dad casually commented, "Maybe Christ is coming back." I was terrified for the rest of the trip because I didn't want to get sucked up into the sky and leave all my friends and relatives (all 'non-believers') behind. Looking back, I think it was extremely screwed up for my parents to paint basically everyone I cared about as miguided heathens because they weren't in TWI. That kind of thing can damage a kid. Anyway, by the time I was 13 or 14 I had major problems with a lot of it (especially their teachings about women "submitting" to their hubbies and just a bunch of stuff that didn't sit right with me, like how my parents would get irritated and give non-answers when I asked any questions with a critical mind re: the stuff we learned in TWI ... and how everyone 'speaking in tongues' always said the same nonsense words every time!) My dad was a harsh enforcer of Way doctrine in our family and I remember being afraid to tell him anything because we never knew when he would react badly to something or say something came from the "adversary" or we were opening ourselves up to devil spirits or so-and-so was "possessed." Pretty freaky stuff. If we didn't like it, tough - he was the head of the household. We always had a "rod" in the house and I remember once (I think it might have been at some Way function - maybe he was high on Way teachings or something) he made my sister and I go to a tree and help him cut down a new rod - I think he mentioned wanting a branch that was green so it would hurt more. I'm also now realizing how much it separated us from the real world. Fellowship was my parents' social life and when they quit going they didn't socialize with anyone else, really. (Everyone else was "off the Word.") I used to want us to be the kind of family that talked about books and world events and stuff at the dinner table, but it seemed that often when I brought stuff up, my dad would give some 'answer' or explanation based on Way stuff and that was that - no discussion. Anyway, when I went to college and started taking classes in philosophy, history etc., it was like the world opened up to me and I admitted to myself that I flat out didn't believe the Way stuff. My parents were still assuming I believed it and finally I couldn't just go along with it anymore, so I very calmly told my dad that I no longer shared their beliefs. He went ballistic - red faced, screaming at me, trying to interrogate me about my beliefs. It was really ugly. After that we sort of had this unspoken understanding that we wouldn't talk about religion/beliefs/the Way. My parents had stopped going to fellowship in the early 90s after things started to happen with Martindale I guess, but they still believed The Way's teachings and do to this day. It took me a while to get over the anger at my parents for raising me that way. I've gone to a lot of therapy, which has helped me see them as fallible humans who can be forgiven. I'm very touchy about anything Christian to this day - I have a serious aversion to anyone I think might try to push their beliefs on me, and to any male 'authority' figures. For a while it seemed my parents had gotten away from it, but I know they've always believed all the doctrine. Recently, my dad has been rereading all of his old Way books and seems to be really getting back into it. He and my mom just came for a visit, and he kept mentioning 'devil spirits' (ie; a guy who gave us a funny look int he gas station parking lot must 'have evil spirits'). He read Way books while he was here and tried to start conversations about them with both me and my boyfriend. He left a PFAL book and something else for me to read. (I'm really looking forward to looking back at them and seeing from an adult viewpoint the stuff I was actually taught as a kid. Just skimming a few pages, I see what should be huge red flags to anyone reading critically - ie; in the PFAL book it basically says that thinking for yourself or deciding what your own beliefs are is the worst sin you can commit; in another book my dad was reading is says that any 'man of God' is 'perfect.' But I'm sure *that* doesn't go to anyone's head. ;)--> ) I've been struggling with whether to talk to my parents about what I've learned about TWI here and elsewhere and suggest they check out this site or just to go keep up the don't-ask-don't tell thing and not burst their bubble. I had sort of decided not to say anything, but my dad's recent Way kick has got me rethinking that. I feel like his attempts to (again) get me back into Way stuff have really made it fair game for me to actually tell them what I think of it. But I don't want to be cruel either, and it obviously makes them happy to believe this stuff. (Though it's not the kind of happiness I'd want since I like to think for myself.) I wonder what my relationship with them would be like if they got over the "Way brain" (love that term!) But I worry they'd be devastated if they found out what a crock it all is - they still just about worship 'Doctor' Weirwille. Anyway, it's nice to meet you all and I'll definitely be around. This site has helped me a lot in the past weeks. I'd love to get opinions on whether I should have a talk with my parents about TWI or not... Thank you! BluzieQ