BluzieQ

I don't have dreams or flashbacks, really. But I do have what I'd describe as mild panic attacks now and then when I feel like religion is being shoved down my throat in some way. Of course, there's nothing to *really* panic about in these situations, but it's like I'm transported back to this feeling I had as a kid of being totally trapped and forced into thinking a certain way. The worst was during my parents' recent visit, when I'd walk out on the porch and see my dad reading Way books. My heart literally pounded and I felt clammy, ill and short of breath. A few times I had to walk back in the house, go off by myself for a bit and compose myself. When I told my boyfriend of these physical reactions, he couldn't believe it. He was shocked it affected me that deeply. It was totally irrational. I guess you could say it was a flashback, but more like a flashback of feelings. I've had a similar, but much less severe reactions other times. For example, while sitting in a Catholic church once. And another time, when I ran into a sweet-seeming elderly neighbor on a walk, and as we were walking, she started pressing me really hard to come with her to church. I told her that I have my own beliefs and I'm very happy with them, thanks but no thanks. And she started pressing me really hard, prying and prodding and trying to guilt me into offering to give her rides to church and attend services with her, then hinting that I'd go to hell. I was utterly creeped out, she started to seem evil and I was on a walk so I had no immediate escape. It's happened a few other times too when religious stuff has come up. BluzieQ

Oh my gosh CoolWaters, are you serious? That is sickening & horrible. But good for your little daughter for fighting back and good for whoever taught her to do so. johniam - I knew it was too good to be true to hope you'd left this thread and weren't coming back. Sigh. You storm into a thread shooting your mouth off about something that has nothing to do with the original topic, offend and insult a bunch of people, then you're suprised when you come back and people are still talking about you. This is ridiculous. I'm done posting to you. BluzieQ

Linda Z, That was such a nice thing to say. Thank you. I have noticed the same about most of the posters here. So many people have interesting things to say, and everyone's so articulate and even-handed. Very good group. And I agree with you about diazbro's posts - excellent. Bluzie

Johniam, It doesn't take a degree in psychology to see that you need serious help. You go on sexist rants about women getting out of control emotionally but you're the only on on this board who's ranting and raving like he's about to bust a vein. About misrepresenting, how 'bout I post my comments and we'll see that you're actually the one misrepresenting or lying about previous posts (just like the "serpent" ... ooooohhh): Johniam wrote: "You're the one who started posting this racist/sexist crap. But you're too much of a coward to admit it. You say I wasn't abused in TWI because I'm a white male. Pllllease!" This was my original post you're referring to: See that? It says: "I'M NOT SAYING ADULT HETEROSEXUAL MALES WEREN'T ABUSED IN TWI...JUST THAT THE DOCTRINE GAVE THEM MORE POWER IN THE HIERARCHY." Also, I never mentioned race initially. Someone else brought that up. If you don't like my posting about the sexism that I, as a female, suffered in TWI as I had to sit there and listen to sexist teachings telling me I should "submit" to some man and that some guy is the "head of the household" (puh-lease!!!)then that's just too bad. Because I am going to talk about it, among other things. That's why I'm here. Talking *about* sexism that one has endured is not sexist. Talking *about* racism that one has endured is not racist. But it's convenient for you, as a part of the most privileged class in society to say so, isn't it? Also, speaking of sexism and racism, I've rarely read more bigoted or offensive posts than yours anywhere. I feel very sorry for your daughter. Oh, and speaking of misrepresenting, one more thing. You wrote that I said that the PFAL book said that every man of god is perfect - it wasn't the PFAL book. It was a book called Living Victoriously, which my dad was reading. And, no, I know no such thing. I just know what the book said. BluzieQ

No, actually. I'm trained in self-defense so I can deal with creeps like you who think it's okay to hit a woman "if she deserves it." (Or rape her, assault her, whatever.) I'm certainly not afraid of whiny, fat bald white men who have to resort to getting up in people's faces in grocery store lines to try hide hide their own (glaringly obvious) FEAR and insecurity. Johniam, your posts just drip with fear, thinly veiled as anger. You seem terrified that some mysterious "other" is gonna try to take away something of YOURS. Get over it. Truly strong people don't need to behave like bullies and throw tantrums to try to intimidate others. BluzieQ

Hi Belle, Good questions ... My situation is maybe a little different since I was raised in TWI, but I had the anti-church stuff drummed into me just the same. I remember once in high school my best friend (who was Catholic and had a beautiful voice) sang at her church and she wanted me to go with her sometimes to hear her sing and just hang out. I remember getting into some conflict with my parents about my going - they didn't try to stop me, but there was this very wary "watch out" kind of tone to what they said (I wish I could describe it better ... but the same tone they used if I mentioned a friend using tarot cards or doing seances ... it was basically anything that's not The Way is daaangerous and scaaaary, but we're not going to stop you, we're just saying be caaaareful). Anyway, I remember feeling uncomfortable the whole time I was at her church because of all my parents warnings ... it almost felt like I was somewhere evil (the rituals really creeped me out), even though I didn't really believe it deep down. After college (Way recovery)I was leery of anything having to do with God, church, Christianity - anything. Wanted nothing to do with it. Even today I get very, very uncomfortable being in a traditional church (not because they're not enough like the Way but because the Way made me uncomfortable with anyone who believes they know the truth and their faith is the corect one). Anyway, I still consider myself to be a spiritual person and I've wanted to find some place where I can go, doesn't have to be a church. I have found two places I can go that I feel fine in ... one is the Unitarian Universalist church because they don't tell you what to believe and they believe all beliefs are equally valid, though I have to say the services feel a little hippy dippy to me, if that makes sense. But it does feel like a place I can go to reconnect with the spiritual side of life. Then there's Quaker meeting. I took a little quiz once where you answer questions about your spiritual/religious beliefs and it tells you which faith you align with most closely ... I turned out to be a liberal Quaker. I probably wouldn't have sought out Quaker meeting on my own, but my boyfriend was raised as a liberal Mennonite and he didn't find a Mennonite church here he likes, so he started going to Quaker meetings. I occasionally go with him. It's just very down to earth - a half hour of silence (which is kind of like meditation or communing to me) and then if someone feels moved to get up and say something, they do. No one preaches, which I like. The people are all salt of the earth and very concerned about social justice. I feel really comfortable there and always feel uplifted for the rest of the day after I go. I need to go more often... BluzieQ

Definitely the most fun part of being in the Way as a kid. To me it just seemed like a big fun festival. I loved the camping out part and music and the craft demos - that was cool. I still have a little glass turtle I got there from a glass artist... Wish I would have been old enough to make it to the teen orgies (ha!) BluzieQ

Um, maybe to play well with others?

Hey vickles, No need to apologize :)--> I think you made some good points (I think seeing a parent act like a screaming hothead in a grocery checkout line can't send a child any kind of message I'd want to see sent to a kid.) Anyway, you didn't derail the thread... BluzieQ

Scary. Really, really SCARY.

Diazbro, That was a great post. Thanks for speaking up - that needed to be said. Yep. Sad, but true. I wonder if johniam will respond. Or maybe he's off at a board meeting somewhere giving himself a raise... BluzieQ

Hi Wayfer Not! Thanks for the welcome and for sharing your story. Whoa - 20 years! I'm glad you finally saw the light :)--> And that you're getting over Waybrain. It sounds like you've made a lot of progress... Amen to that! And thank you for posting! BluzieQ

Hey Nandon, I just wanted to say I'm sorry you went through all that with the Way. What a disturbing story. How awful they would do that to your family. I can see why you feel the way you do... Bluzie Q

Thelema, Very well said. My feelings exactly! BQ

diazbro - the Whiteside book sounds interesting ... thanks for explaining it. Johnny Lingo - Thanks for your post - very interesting and heartfelt story. I wish I had more time to respond but am on my way out of town for the weekend. (Camping trip.) Have a wonderful weekend! LearnedTooLate - Hi! Thanks for your post and encouragement! I think that's a great idea! I wonder if there are enough of us. More later when I get back in town .... BQ

Hi, Sunsesis - Great post! It was intersting to hear your take on the submission thing. I have to say that was the #1 thing that bothered me about TWI as a kid. I too saw many men who demeaned their wives and tried to act all macho and powerful ... and women who cowered and wouldn't stand up for themselves. It just didn't seem right to me. I also noticed there were a few super outspoken women too. We had a biker woman at one of our twigs who was the LEAST submissive woman you could imagine, but man could she give a mean teaching on submission. ;)--> Thanks for your perspective on the early days of the Way. That's kind of what I figured. I can sort of imagine what the times were like - I've heard a lot of stories from my parents (they were at Kent state and were big into the anti-war movement then). I can see where the Way would be an attractive thing at the time ... The stuff you say about the Jesus People is really interesting - I've always wondered about them. What fascinating times... About my dad - I think you're right about his getting angry. It's like he felt threatened or something. Thanks for the advice too! You all are so nice and helpful. Diazbro - Thanks for posting your take on the 60s and the Way - very interesting. A lot of what you said really makes sense - especially the stuff about college, and its being competition for Way corps. I'm curious - what is the Elena Whiteside book? It sounds familiar but I can't place what it is. Is it meant to be non-fiction? I really related to what you said about questions going unanswered or ignored ... that was always one of the things that bugged me the most - non-answers. If you know THE TRUTH then surely it should be able to stand up to a simple challenging question here or there... BluzieQ

Johniam, You wrote: "That's just it; I didn't find TWI abusive. Well...not until the early 90s." Hmmmm...I guess it depends on your perspective. My guess is that adult heterosexual males would be the least likely to find TWI abusive ... children, gay men, and women (especially VP's sex abuse victims) might have a different take. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying adult heterosexual males weren't abused in TWI - just that the doctrine gave them more power in the TWI hierarchy...)

THW - I'm glad you were able to get out of a bad marriage then ... good that your ex seems happier too. It must have been a relief to get free of the twi teachings that were tying you down and making you feel you had to stay ... it sounds like you made an amazing amount of progress ... Rascal - Thank you! I found the search function and found some of what you're talking about. I haven't got through all of it yet but I can see what you mean. Belle - I know so many kids have felt that pressure to be perfect - not just in TWI. And I'm sure it has lasting effects no matter where that pressure comes from ... From watching my parents I think that TWI just gave them backing to exaggerate personality traits they already had, if that makes any sense. (Ie; my dad was raised in an uptight, critical kind of atmosphere and that helped form his demeanor ... TWI just made him believe he had every right to be that way, and had God's full backing as the 'head of the household') (gag!) About LCM and college - that's just too much. I guess they can find justification for anything they want to do, can't they? BQ

Hi Raf, I'm new here and don't know you, but wanted to say congrats from a fellow newspaper type (though I just quit my job to go freelance). Good for you for your promotion and it's cool to see a fellow journalist type here :)--> BluzieQ P.S. - You must have been 'believing big' and just didn't know it - HA!

Georgio, Haha! You're funny. I just e-mailed "u". BluzieQ

Sorry for all the posts in a row - I'm having a hard time keeping up. TheHighWay - Thank you - that's nice of you! I think your post was really wise and it makes total sense. Of course they're not going to come around until they're ready - if ever. I could ask if they know how VPW died, send them to this site and they could probably see everything on here and still find a way to rationalize it or make it fit their beliefs if they wanted to. I was probably assuming I had more power than I actually do ;)--> Your advice about talking with my parents and keeping up a good relationship while making a point about TWI when I get a chance is very good. We do have a fairly good relationship and positive conversations right now and I don't want to damage that. At the same time, I think it would be dishonest to never say anything about TWI - especially because I know my dad will ask if I read the PFAL book he left here and what I thought - perfect opening to say something diplomatic but maybe get him to think a bit. About your husband - did he ever decide to leave? Or is he still in while you're out? If so, that must be a tough situation. But you seem good at handling things ... Mell - Thank you! It seems like your experience backs up what TheHighWay is saying too. It's funny you mention "available." I get the creeps hearing Way terms sometimes - the one that gets me is when my parents end all our phone conversations with "You're the best!" Lol. Anyway, nice to meet you. BluzieQ

Hi, Garth - thanks. You're right on. I don't think anything in any of my posts indicated that I think I'm still a child or don't demand respect. Knowing that my dad goes ballistic, I think it's reasonable to be leery of discussing something he's been known to freak out about. Of course I can, and do, stand up for myself and walk away if necessary. But it's still a stressful situation to see someone get that out-of-control angry - especially when my personal spiritual beliefs are the topic of discussion. Oh, by the way - I'm a she, not a he FYI :)--> Bramble - I think TWI leads to bondage for a lot of people. I felt trapped, stifled, oppressed by it. One of the things about TWI that would be hilarious if it hadn't hurt so many people is that they control people by teaching you to be terrified of fear. I have had some anxiety issues (nothing major) and can't help but wonder if they're related to all those years of being taught that devil spirits were lurking around every corner - oh, but don't be afraid! About your children - I'm sure they will be fine. You have had the good sense to admit you were wrong and to try to correct and adjust for past mistakes. Children are resilient little guys. "Waybot mom" - lol. Gladtobeout - Thank you!!! I'm glad to be here. Oenophile - You're funny! BluzieQ

Hi johniam, You wrote: "I was raised by extremely liberal people. But they were IMO abusive. They dissed religion at every opportunity, quick to point out every speck of hypocrisy they could fabricate. Taking PFAL at 22 was like the world opened up for me." I think rebelling against what you were raised in can be a step along the process of finding yourself ... I definitely think that a lot of people who got involved in the Way thought they were rebelling against their parents' uptight, confining (in their view) religions. (Or diehard non-religiousness in your case.) You wrote: "Has it occurred to you that groups like TWI exist because enough people were raised in something else that abused them? They had to get closure somewhere." Hmmm ... I can see why someone who was abused as a child would be searching for closure, but (no offense) I can't see how it would be healthy to escape the abusive atmosphere one grew up in by getting involved with an abusive cult. I don't think groups like the Way exist to give people closure ... I think they flourish because they attract the vulnerable (probably messing them up more.) You wrote: "There was a TWI guy whose dad came to see him. The dad was a belligerant blowhard who railed on TWI non stop. Finally the guy had enough and slammed his fists down and said, "Look! You're in MY house, you're eating MY food, and you're drinking MY beer! If you can't speak any more politely than that, GET OUT!!!" The dad, howbeit reluctantly, altered his behavior. You can do that with your dad if it comes to that, can't you? You're not a child anymore; you're a grown up. Why should your dad treat you with respect if you don't?" Not sure what you mean here. I do demand that my dad treat me with respect. In fact, I told him I wouldn't discuss any specifics about my religious/spiritual beliefs with him until he could discuss it repsectfully, without yelling, and treat my beliefs as valid. He's never taken me up on that, therefore we've avoided the topic. Luckily for me, I refused to absorb the TWI teaching that women should sit there and be submissive and shut up, so I have a pretty healthy amount of self-respect and don't put up with any domineering junk or abuse from anyone. BluzieQ

Hi, I am feeling reall welcome here :)--> I think I'll be hanging around quite a bit. Georgio - Nice to meet you. Sounds a lot like me , age-wise. (I was in at 0, out at 18). I was never in Junior Corps though. While I was small we were in Ohio, then my parents moved to western NY state. I am pretty sure I probably don't know you, unless we would have met at ROA. I shudder to think what Junior Corps must have been like. Do you still have friends who were in with you? Outofadog - Thanks! That's cool your daughter decided to go to college and do her own thing! Glad she's no worse for the wear. Raf - Hi! Nice to meet you. Oenophile - Hmmmm. That saying sounds familiar :)--> I have to say I agree with you re: junk. As a kid I always had this vague feeling of being trapped and oppressed by Way junk, and then when I got away it was a great feeling of freedom. Oh, I love wine too by the way :)--> BluzieQ

Rascal, Thank you. You are a dear. I especially appreciate your taking the time to explain what my parents might have to go through mentally and emotionally if they look at my point of view. I'm now kind of choked up after reading it. It makes me sad (and angry at TWI) that my parents would have to go through that kind of emotional trauma. But let me ask you this ... Do you think that if they did have to face some of the truth about VPW and TWI and rethink everything, would they end up being better off in the end? Would they be glad they "woke up" so to speak? Or would it just devastate them? And is there much harm in their just continuing to go along as they've always gone along believing the VPW doctrine, since they're not being controlled by any group now? I don't want to hurt them unnecessarily. And I know that you can't predict the future and don't know my parents so you can't really answer, but I'd love to hear your opinion as someone who's been there... About your story ... isn't it interesting how most everyone's involvement started with some strange chance meeting? I can imagine being a waitress in an omelette shop, totally unsuspecting as you wait on these nice loving-seeming Way folks. Then slowly get sucked in. Argh. I feel for you. I do think a lot of people who get involved do it for noble reasons ... it can seem like a really innocuous, friendly group just gettin' together to study the Bible. Then they tell you you'll be "healthy and wealthy and wise" (anyone remember that?) Then, before you know it, you're making all your life decisions, from finances to what toys your children play with to what to put on top of your Christmas tree, by what the Way says you should do... You seem like a wonderful mother, Rascal. I like how you said you're brutally honest with your kids about past mistakes. I bet that makes for a very good relationship. And I'm glad your kids are forgiving. I'm sure the older ones are gonna be just fine. I would bet that just being able to talk about it with you goes a long way toward dealing with any leftover baggage they might have. And the younger ones sound like they are enjoying their childhoods. Karate, pokemon, reasonable parents ;)--> What more could they want? Thanks, Rascal. Bluzie Q P.S. - What you said about Chris Geer was really distrubing. Can you by chance point me to any places on this site or sources where I could read more about him? Thanks!