rhino

Good thing you clarified that was your daughter Jonny. I was gonna write Mrs. Bump and tell her Bump was stepping out on her with Snow White ... :o she does kinda look like snow white ...

Once again I have to enlighten you guys ...

clearly ... light bulbs introduce devil spirits ...

dispose of your bulbs and get the CFL's ... or you will burn ...

lucifer ... angel of light bulb (figure of omission)

the fishing story may have been floated to cover for the visit to the exorcist oncologist

which reminds me of the Louisiana friend of mine ... Ronnie ... Boudro in

his wife fell over board

and he kept on fishing . ..

they found her a couple days later

she was all bloated and just covered with big blue crabs ...

so we asked him if he was going to bury her

or have her cremated ...

he and a couple fisherman friends said ....

heck no ....

we're gonna float her again tomorrow .... :o

Good luck to her!

I just read about THIS GUY.

How exactly do you train for your whole life then FORGET TO SHOW UP for the event?

He thought his he was in a different heat .. seems his coach might have verified the time.

An American got the gold in the cycling time trials Kristn Armstrong ... My cousin's kid got fifth .. (fourth in Athens) She was only three seconds from the bronze in a 35 minute race.

But back to the topic ... they are now pointing out several telling things about China ...

• are some of those kids really old enough?
  
• some of the fireworks were not live and were digitally enhanced
  
• the kid singing was pulled for not being cute enough, so a cuter kid lip synced
  
• kids are basically captive in these training programs ... when they ask to see their parents, they are not allowed.
  

anybody who says we have plenty of oil on our own is dreaming. We all wish we had it. If we had that type of access to oil, we wouldn't send one penny to the mid east. Our economy would be so dominate.

Wonder where a guy like this gets his info

Well where do we get OUR info?

I don't know about that guy at all ... but a very smart guy I knew years ago, traded stocks, had an orange grove ... older guy ... he was very convinced there was a LOT of oil of the coast of FL, and other places.

Perhaps our vast reserves are actually our "strategic reserve"

P-Mosh .. I just meant it is hard to speculate that ANWR would only have that much impact in 20 years, or whatever. There are a lot of assumptions.

If those ships are turning around when they get a higher bid from France, doesn't that verify that it IS a global market? It goes to the high bidder around the globe. That is a market. Of course there are all kinds of grades and refinement capacities that come to play.

I'm not sure about the whole oil family being so united .. Chevron was not too happy with oil at $10. But there is a lot of money, so no doubt there is some collusion.

It is interesting to look at how it developed for vp ... he had the church paycheck till 1956. I'm guessing there were always people disgruntled with major denominations, it is just the nature of the beast. Maybe VP was looking more to attract new customers to some alternative ideas, than to keep his membership isolated, though that would also happen.

Also with denominations stuck with their traditional beliefs, he could poke away at them since he had no doctrine that he was tied to like the churches did. Just from a marketing view, he was agile while the denominations were stuck with their product. So of course he wouldn't offer what they did.

Many were probably attracted to anything different, they wanted CHANGE. I also wonder if the ministry was less dogmatic early on ... surely it was.

When did he first publicly tell of the snow on the gas pumps? Somehow I doubt he could tell that story while he was still taking a paycheck from the church. But once he left, he needed something (or several things) to mark him as a bonified MOG. He does mention those other men he stole from, but HE was THE ONE that put it all together ...

Wikipedia says

Maybe that is the mark of a cult, when the MOG claims he is THE anointed one for our time. JAL is perhaps just catching on that THAT is an an important part of the hook, (as I think Groucho called it)

I forgot about those journals ... it seemed mine was always SOS, different day .. ha

But maybe I'll go back if I can find them ... maybe there is some insight on how screwy it was ... :blink:

The problem is that drilling will not solve the problem at all. Maybe $0.75 off of a barrel in a few decades, which to me doesn't sound like enough to be worth the effort, considering that we're toast if we don't have a better solution by then.

That seems a pretty random number ... in the long term, we are globally using more oil, prices will go up. (regardless of whether the current price is a bubble or not) Producing more locally helps our economy and slows the rate of increase as well as secures our US supply.

It doesn't really matter where the US sells its production, since it is a global market. And there is probably no real way to embargo the US. I just heard even during the '73 (?) embargo, US supply actually increased. For now oil movement is a matter of what is most efficient ... revenues end up the same, and in crisis we could secure our own.

I think "clean coal" is nonsense for the most part. Sure, they can capture a lot of the pollution, but the environmental impact of mining for it, as well as the extreme risks and loss of lives, I don't think it's worth it. Would you be willing to die so you can provide coal to the U.S.? I know I wouldn't. As far as nuclear power plants, I don't know how many are in the works, but I know that too is a long process. Nuclear power is a good thing, and in the process of transitioning to other sources of energy, we should look at it closer.

They are trying to take a commodity and turn it into a luxury good. It makes more sense for them to sell the oil to Asia for a higher price than to sell it here out of loyalty to America. If one of the oil companies did take a stand in defense of our nation, they would be slaughtered in the stock market and their top management would all be replaced by shareholders. The system is broken because the dollar comes before our nation and our people.

Well, I don't see the oil companies having as much control over price as OPEC. They have to be efficient and make a profit. Of course they are going to make more now with oil so high, but what about all the time oil was around $17?

The price is set globally ... of course they will sell it at market price. I don't know the reasons for some going to Asia while other oil comes here. It seems more about logistics ...

I can't recall ever seeing handball or field hockey played ... though I knew someone real into handball .. big in Europe I guess.

my cousin's kid ended up way back in the pack, apparently her role was to chase down the break aways or some such strategy, that basically sacrifices her energy to help the team, somehow ...

she has time trials Wednesday, which she is stronger at anyway ...

USA is doing OK so far I guess ...

Nice background work dove ...

One other thing, regardless of where vp got his teachings, it was easy for him to decide doctrine and change it as he wanted, at least early on. A major denomination is pretty stuck when it comes to the trinity and most other major issues.

There is just no way they can change their brand. For the Catholics to decide against the Trinity would be like Coke deciding that Pepsi really is better ...

As multi national companies, these oil giants may be happy to drill where it is easiest, regardless of where it is. But as to protecting from globalization, that seems a good reason to get the drilling going locally.

We can't drill our way out of the problem, but neither can we conserve our way out, or solar panel our way out. Democrats claim it is a Republican smoke screen, but certainly opening drilling stimulates the economy ... as well as decreasing the trade imbalance. Building rigs and refineries would also help.

We have maybe 300 years worth of coal ... that can be pretty clean and help us along, though I think 2000 nuke plants is a better answer. How many nuke plants are being built right now?

I think ALL politicians are the problem ... the all are deferring to their own special interest handlers, so it is all a big smoke screen.

I just pulled $70 out of the air ... if there is a global recession, maybe $40 ... I don't know. But as producing countries start keeping more of their oil, it may become more important to have our own. The argument that it will take 10 or 15 years seems more of an argument for starting on those projects now.

Sure it is complicated, but it has always been complicated, that's why we are happy to have Exxon and Chevron doing such a great job of getting gas into our tanks.

I don't understand what the fuss is about, exactly, whether VP believed in the trinity at one point. Someone mentioned DEW saying he wasn't clear on the subject early on.

What was the subject in piffle, vp said he'd always trade with someone when it came up ... was that the manifestations? Maybe he did it with the Trinity.

Anyway ... what VP believed is not significant ... it seems many people here did not believe the Trinity (or at least not perceive it as Jesus IS God) before piffle ... perhaps many have now gone back to their childhood belief, whether that be Trinity or JCING or baseball.

Or they have made informed decisions on what to believe. We can be fairly certain that The Way, It Was ... was merely a compilation of other men's works, largely men that were either "cutting edge", in VP's mind, or that offered something of interest that VP felt would mark him as significant.

Another point I think Juedes misses is that in Lynn's view, the significance of the vp movement was not in numbers, but in pointing out doctrinal error, or bringing old light to light now. Juedes gives numbers as his evidence of other groups being so much more significant, but that was not the significance JAL was referring to ...

A more honest Jalvis approach would have been to say he wanted to get back to the works of those men vp plagiarized ... but he seems more interested in stirring up some memories of Way Daze ...

So you folks out there that are now making much more than minimum wage, put on your old WOW pin, and write good old jal a check for a grand or two ... as you give you'll receive, and god will pour out a blessing upon you.

He really only needs to reach a few such folks to have a nice payday. Or maybe JAL is just still livin' the dream ... it may be unsettling to many to try to change their ways after thirty years.

Fortunately I have arrived to give a definitive answer, after watching all your floundering.

First it has been deemed against GSC rules to judge motives. To name call the person crossing a "chicken", I find derisive, without links for evidence (first verified by snopes).

But since this person is a public figure, I believe the antagonistic labeling may be allowed, as well as jokes.

Most estrangelo aramaic texts read "the chicken crossed ON the road" indicating a trinitarian catholic, no doubt blocking traffic to perform a pagan religious act. Since this is a Christian nation, such pagan rituals should be outlawed, since they disagree with MY opinion that jcing, IF I actually believed the Bible was accurate.

For those still clinging to some old TWI teaching that this was an actual feathered chicken, first I feel pity, but secondly, the myth you cling to for comfort obviously indicates you are living in denial that trinitarians ARE chickens, and only follow their flock.

But to help even you, in your vain pursuit of truth within a false dogma, I will say that even chickens without heads are known to cross roads, so the act is random, as are visions of the virgin chicken in potatoes or shadows or cheese fries. There was no snow on the three headed chicken house in July ... you've been had.

I know this may ruffle some feathers, but I think your chicken counselors have been milking you with false comfort for years, while shamelessly withholding THE TRUTH about chickens. Chickens and dogma are raised by humans, and they have no higher purpose than to be eaten by humans.

There is much more of course, but till you have the advanced class, you are not prepared to handle it. I've already forgotten more about chickens than you'll ever know ... (except for RonG and that TX guy)

I'm glad to have cleared this up for you ...

The truth is that 1) we sell around half or more of the oil we have in the U.S. to Asia, 2) there is a lot of oil left in the world, but to get it will become increasingly difficult and expensive, 3) the whole "offshore drilling ban" thing is a political smokescreen because the oil companies already had permits to drill in many places offshore, of which about 60% are not being taken advantage of, and the Department of Energy says that drilling in Alaska will maybe take $0.75 off of a barrel of oil in a few decades. Oh, and the crisis we are going through right now is primarily due to speculators having free reign on the market without the same level of regulation the stock market has and the fact that China and India are increasing in their oil demand, and our oil companies sell U.S. oil to them for a higher price than we pay for OPEC oil, even with the increases we've seen lately.

As T Boone Pickens says, we need to do it all, definitely drill here as soon as possible ...

But I find some of your statements "extremely speculative". Oil might go back to $70, but that doesn't solve all the problems. Let's start on natural gas and nuke plans as well. T Boone likes the wind potential, which has come along faster than I had figured ... do it ALL. And we haven't even started to tap our coal, which is VAST.

I haven't read much on what is actually leased and not being drilled, but my understanding was those not being used are less economically feasible. Do you have some links? Rigs take time, but not forever ... release the hounds .... arf ...

There is just no reason to not open ANWR ... too many Dems WANT higher oil prices, to force us to conserve and transform ... but we are still competing with China and Russia that don't give a darn about carbon credits or polluting with coal, so we are being put at even more disadvantage on the world scene.

Rigs can move around pretty fast too ... I haven't kept up on that issue.

"Refuse to drill?"

WTF? ( and just what is it that we should drill WITH?)

Well, that nonsense notwithstanding,

Drill with rigs ... we have some already set up ... more oil from the Destin Dome off FL .. off CA we could get some pretty fast ... it is not the only answer, but a big part of the answer. You've noticed even Obama has shifted ...

Why is drilling for oil here "nonsense" ... it is demanded by the vast majority of Americans.

China is a force ... so is India ... it's a mad mad mad mad world ... ha Any type oppressive regime does harm to their economic outlook. Our economy is still waht floats their boats ...

I think all internet communication is censored and watched at the olympics ...

Hahahahahaha! We WOWs in Wheeling were guarding the state from the north while you were protecting it from the south.

I hope your cousin's daughter does well this year (or did well, if her event is already over).

I just noticed this year that badminton is an olympic sport. How long has that been the case? What's next, tiddly winks? :)

Yes ... we had WV covered :) Briit Lyynn showed up the next year to cover ... he said he would have pulled us out of Bluefield ... that probably would have been wise ... the town was united against us ... little did they know we saved them from commies ... :o

Christine finished with the pack, which was 20 seconds or whatever back of the top 7 or so. I'm not sure if there are other events, she is better in the time trials I guess.

Badminton has been in since 1992, if my brief read of wikipedia is correct ... it seems like a sport ... there were some other weird things they were talking of adding ... I'm waiting for something with beer involved ... curling in winter olympics ... I bet those guys are drinking for most of their practices at least ...

I'm not so sure China will rule the world ... but we've certainly opened some doors for them ... didn't the Clintons both take money from China? And Obama is a citizen of the world ... oh well ...

China's has some of our debt P-Mosh ... but they still depend on US consumers at the same time. Do they have enough oil or food or infrastructure? ... don't count US out. But while we refuse to drill, Russia and China are buying up every natural resource they can find. Russia wants the north pole, China is grabbing African farm land ... Thanks Nancy ... <_< Lets depend on hot air turbines ...

He was clearly teaching that Jesus Christ wasn't "the Word" as in God is the Word, the Logos. PFAL was the first presentation of the doctine of Christ as "not being God" in the classic Trinitarian sense (if there is such a thing) I heard from the Way.

Good point socks ... I'd sorta forgotten .. but I started "pre-qualifying"/preparing new students with a short meeting where I discussed several items they may be shocked by, in piffle. JCING was one (I'm pretty sure), the easter thing I think, a few others ... and I'd give a couple verses of support. A version of "obviating the objections" I suppose.

I think my area leader got my notes and started doing the same, it may have even become a standard ... but anyway, JCING did seem to be taught in piffle. VP was pretty worked up on the "coming back as lord gawd almighty" bit ... who knows what he really was thinking?

But the trinity started in the third century, so on that point it was the word as it had not been known sine the third century .. ... though many other Christians have held to jcing over the centuries.

I didn't see it .. but of course China wanted the Olympics for a forum to promote themselves. Hopefully this is not just one step forward preceeding two steps backwards ... if that is the phrase.

On an olympic note, watching today I heard my cousin's kid was leading the pack of bikers at the moment. She was one place short of a bronze in Athens 4 years ago .. I figured she was too old at 38. I haven't seen her since she was 3.

in her spare time she became an arthritis doctor ... darn overachievers ... that's why I don't go to the family reunions ... what did you do Bill ... "well, I saved the world once by praying and keeping the communists from attacking West Virginia"

Chri* stine Thor .burn ... go girl ...

Thanks Dan .. I'm pretty thick skinned, but I felt the term was inaccurate for me, and it is one of the more flame like terms that I try to avoid. I don't think i called anyone a liar, but yes, I was called that with no reason, and with my evidence removed. ha It does change the tone when the more provocative terms are used.

Here is my definition

I don't exactly put myself in the Christian camp, so it was not me being partial to my own group. And I do understand the majority of Islam is not radical Islam. But to me, it seemed apparent that suggesting the possiblity that jcing Christians were more muslim, following Juedes slam on ALL those in TWI not thinking for themselves ... was not a positive approach. (smiley faces notwithstanding )

And regarding my more negative view of Islam, maybe my last post gave a more historical reason for my opinion. American Muslims today are almost certainly more Americanized, which is another large aspect of what people are .. not just their religion. And there are plenty of Iranian Muslims that would prefer a more westernized nation. Poverty is also an important aspect ...

But there is certainly a more jihad like side of Islam, and a large part of Islam that is at least more tolerant of the jihad side. The Iraq war was not really a crusade by Christians to convert people by the sword ... it was about oil (and wmd's), and we have subjected no one to Christianity nor US rule.

I haven't seen the pope calling for people to rise up and take back the holy lands, while we as westerners have a military advantage. Robertson I think called for killing Chavez, but not converting him ... that is as close as it gets.

Christians in the US tend to vote as a block, but that may have worked against my interests as Huckabee messed things up, and Republicans ended up with McCain instead of a conservative. Since I'm not part of that Christian block, bigot did not really seem to fit.

But I do tend to stick to my opinions ... but only because I am so darn right all the time I agree with Oakspear a lot, especially when he agrees with me

Well because Christians believe their way is the only way, none other will they abide.

Not all Christians think that way Bill. As you may know.

I am what some would call a Christian, but I don't use the word of myself or throw it around about myself because of the current state of western Christianity as depicted in the statement I quoted from you. Which is unfortunately true in many, too many cases.

True cman, but that is what the song says.

Though for the basic Bible Christian, Jesus as savior at the right hand of God, does seem to put Christians at the head of the class.

Geisha said

It wasn't always war between Muslim and Jew--not always conversion by the sword either--that is why the people of the book thing was so important. Many times Muslims would take over places and thepeople were glad because they restored order and allowed "People of the book" to retain their faith and fully participate in society. People prospered and were protected.

My understanding is under Islamic rule, Christians were allowed but were subject to special rules and taxes. I forget the terms (dhimmitude is one), but they were under submission, not equals. People were probably only "glad" in cases where there was great unrest.

This came up in the politics forum before, but in the history as I recall, the crusades happened after Islam was moving through the "Bible lands", and this was the European defensive response to stop them before they took Europe. Of course on the crusades, the armies took some time to rape and pillage other places I think ... but hey, boys will be boys.

It is funny .. but to me, much of this theological name calling ... trans gender religion hooky pookism talk strikes me a lot like "who would win ... Superman ... or the Hulk?"

Where some fault or error has been noted there is this:

Standard for ordinary believers:

Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Standard for church leaders:

1 Tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Not much difference, is there? Confrontation by 2 or 3, then open confrontation in the church. It's a command, to expose sinful church leaders.

It should have been "available" that two or three believers should have been able to confront alleged perps and secure some sort of answer.

If that didn't work, it should then have been "available" for the sins of the perp to be brought before the whole church.

In these sex cases, DWBH and the psych that he mentions on his thread should have been able to confront VPW and LCM about their sexual misconduct. It should have been investigated.

If not investigated, it should have been possible for DWBH and others to bring it before the whole church.

Should? Yes. Possible? Not on your life. Those leaders did not "submit" themselves in love to other believers. Their idea of submitting was (as LCM once said), to submit to the needs of the whole body by teaching them (at SNS and Corps nights).

Thanks for these points Twinky.

I don't know the actual dynamics ... or who could have done better. But it seems many at HQ even, were still in the dark on these issues for all those years, even when several more witnesses were available and I think willing, the issue was not presented to a greater body.

As I said in the deleted thread I think, there were many "prophets" hidden in a research cave or joyful noise cave, that had not bowed their knee to VP. I see taking it to others at HQ or to many others as possible, though difficult and career ending.

For whatever reason it seems to me, a willful decision was made to not proceed with communicating to the greater body. From some witnesses, it seems there WERE people that were ready to come forward.

My belief is that saving the ministry seemed more important ... that decision proceeded from cult like beliefs as well as the oppression that was HQ.

There were several men that had the chance ... vp managed to keep his sex machine functioning ... it seems the pressures put those that would have acted into a sort of cognitive dissonance ... a surreal state of denial. (no charge for this opinion) Proceeding to confront may well have meant the end of The Way ... the enormity of the situation became overwhelming.

Rebuke before all ... that would have made for an interesting lunch "sharing" ... ha I wonder ... what if I had stood up at one of the Corps weeks, and asked if adultery was vp approved. Specifically at one week where I remember the junior corps was bragging they had basically done every kind of sex, and the corps crowd all laughed and applauded ... as I recall. I imagine it was a proud moment to VP ... sitting up on stage.

Mutually agreed to adultery was bad enough, but the reality was of course much worse.

I cannot speak to Juede's intent, I could only respond to the words he used. But I wasn't speaking of Juede's at all, I was speaking of Geisha's posts regarding unitarians and Moslems.

Well since the Juedes quote set the tone ... he was fairly clear ... he gave the reason why WAY JCING people believed as they do ... he had no evidence of that ... yes I judged his words as expressing a more bigoted opinion than I believe is accurate. And I think his words can be fairly viewed as "an attack"

And remember Geisha first stated JCING was wrong, even a child could see that.

Geisha gave her interpretation of the muslim board post, I gave mine. I also made the point that questioning if a JCING Christian is really a Muslim did not seem a very positive view. It seemed more a continuation of the Juedes line of thinking about JCING people.

If we have to parse all words and nuance our thinking more than that, the same things will be said, but in more "devious" fashion ... as I see it.

If Jesus is the savior for ALL mankind - then why have labels at all - why divide by Christian, Trinitarian, Unitarian, Moslem, Jew, etc?

Well because Christians believe their way is the only way, none other will they abide. And it seems to me that many trinitarians are especially dogmatic ... WOWs were painted as children of a false religion and tarred and feathered for not preaching the trinity.

TWI may have been as dogmatic on the issue, hard to say, but they did not have the power of the major religions.

Good call, mods/paw, splitting this off, as Twink suggested

Rhino, you're a religious bigot, but it's not your fault. You simply haven't met the "right" muslims. I repeat, their "Prophet" was wrong about some things. He rewrote the Bible to favor the Arabs (Hagar's children) and he did not accept Jesus' death or oneness with the Father -- that's big stuff. But he called people back to the oneness of God, and that's the point here -- monotheism, and that's why I say I've met muslims who worship the same God as I do. The God of Abraham, and the God of the Gentiles, the One God.

No, I do not put all Muslims in the same basket .. I specifically asked about what type Muslim the JCING types were being compared to. (terrorists?) Those are the ones making the news, and I'm not sure how many Muslims believe Muhammad was wrong about some things, as you do. He was their swash buckling prophet ... I have not seen many denounce even the current terrorist activities.

A religious bigot would label them as all the same, which seems more what Juedes did regarding all cult members that accepted the jcing concept. There is your example of religious bigotry. But I think I refrained from labeling Juedes as such, since I didn't want to start calling people names.

But the percentage of Muslims polled in Great Britain that supported/allowed for terrorism as acceptable was alarmingly high.

Okay, I've never studied Muhammad or Islam overly much, so for the sake of argument I will accept your premise as true. That still does not mean all of today's Moslem's are terrorists, nor does it mean that was the intent of Geisha's post. Moslems today are as diverse as Jews and Christians - there are many factions/sects with a variety of beliefs and interpretations.

Those of us who do not believe in the trinty tend to see the worship of the trinity as polytheistic, but it would appear that those who worship the trinity do NOT see it as polytheistic. It might be interesting to learn why that is - why they consider themselves monotheistic, no?

The intent of Juedes seemed clear ... to him the concept of JCING was accepted because we could not think and only accepted VP as MOG. Geisha has been rather clear on her opinion of correct Christian doctrine. Introducing the suggestion those one god Christians are more like Muslims seemed another slight, more than adding to a reasonable dialogue.

I'm not interested in debating the trinity really, only in looking at how some Trinitarians appear to be close minded on the issue, as Juedes portrayed in his "attack" on those that hold to JCING. So some showed good reason to consider the jcing position, even without vp's book.

But the point about those old writings is interesting. Maybe there is book of Jesus somewhere ...Matthew Mark Luke Jesus John ... of course Christians don't believe it is just a label assigned to a group ... he is the savior for all mankind.

Or was he just a guy that got good press and he never saw snow on the gas pumps either? What do we really know from those writings?

"My guess is the person posting that message is some other whacko trinitarian poser, trying to fabricate evidence to support his nonsense position."

Sounds like he believed this and thought I knew it. It is an accusation of dishonesty.

It doesn't sound like that to me ... I never accused you of anything. I did not imply you were a liar ... and only now did I have any idea what you were referring to.

Having been around many boards, I have seen others present arguments in this way. It made no sense to me that an actual Muslim would consider a non trinitarian Christian to be muslim. I said "whacko" because there are some nutty folks that go to extremes to push/promote their position, including putting quotes on Muslim forums to be quoted elsewhere.

It sounded more like a sneak attack by a trinitarian posing as a muslim, trying to belittle the non trinitarian position.

I hadn't even considered that you may have known that, since I was just surmising at how peculiar it would be for a Muslim to think like that ... but it did seem odd for you to quote from a Muslim forum to support your trinitarian view.