Outin88.

Not to be picky here, but......I love the examples cited, however.....

Having faith in the general promises of God, as in what is written in the bible, could possibly different than trusting in a specific promise made by God to a specific person in a specific circumstance?

Yes, having faith in general promises of the Bible can be different than having faith, trusting in a specific promise from God to specific folks with specific circumstances. I agree.

And Raf, I could use a jacket!!!

Years ago in TWI, I started having doubts about the "magic of believing."

I did a word study and found the word faith (or as TWI translated it - believe or believing) has nothing to do with what TWI taught. Rather, it is much more closely aligned with the word "trust."

Sure, we can ask for something, but instead of getting the mental mind picture, dwelling on it and "believing" for it to come to pass, God instructs us to trust him.

I had realized, while in TWI, that when I was believing for something, the answer always came in a way I never thought of, and had nothing to do with my mind picture or what I was staying my mind on. I eventually got the message.

I never use the word "believing" or "believe" anymore. Its trust.

I am not such an arrogant creation to believe that my mind can order or direct God, the creator, about and make him do my will.

When I read Hebrews with all the great "believing" victories, or faith or trust stories, I realized that:

Moses just didn't get the idea to part the Red Sea then "believe" for it to come to pass, God told him He would do this. Moses "trusted" God's word and the miracle came to pass.

The walls of Jericho didn't fall because Joshua mentally decided that's the way he would defeat the city, and kept an image in his mind. No, God told him he would make the walls fall down. Joshua's job was to trust God to bring it to pass - in God's way, even though 5 senses-wise, to most people it seems like an absurd idea.

My point is, it was God who FIRST gave the revelation and men believed, or trusted that what God said would come to pass. If you or I want to move a mountain, it will not come to pass unless God first tells us to move it. TWI has taken that verse way out of context. You can "believe" until you're blue in the face, but it will not move.

It is so much easier to "trust" God, give it to him and not worry about it. Let him bring something to pass in the way he sees fit, and not as I direct him to do. That's the great thing about faith, or trust - you must literally step out into his arms - you will not fall.

The whole "law of believing," "magic of believing" or whatever you want to call it has its roots in theosophy, and ancient "mystic" occult practices.

In many ways, TWI was a gnostic ministry - something for another thread.

Well said Sunesis.

Ever notice that TWI often replaced the word faith with believe?

Mr. Wierwille taught that believing is a verb it connotes action, and he was right, but the word faith is translated faith for good reason. It's the Greek word pistis which is a noun, not a verb.

As Sunesis pointed out the simplest definition of faith is trust. When the Bible tells us it's impossible to please God without faith, it means we need to have trust in Him. We can't please him without trusting Him.

TWI twisted this to mean Believe, and it was bs.

Believing takes place in the mind, and there is no power of your mind outside of your own body. But faith requires trusting in something, for Christians it's God and or the Lord Jesus Christ. See it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. When we were taught to believe for things, wasn't that our will? When we have faith in God, thats His will be done. We trust that He will take care of us, we trust to obey Him and do His will.

Rememebr the story of Elijah in I Kings 17, where He tells the people it's won't rain. God tells Elijah to go to the brook and the ravens will feed him, Elijah didn't have to believe for that, God instructed him and when Elijah trusted God's word on that the ravens fed him.

See, Elijah trusted God, When the brook dried up, I guess Elijah wasn't believing enough huh! No God told him to go to a widows house and He (God) would make the food last. Elijah trusted God and it happened. Then the Widows son died, Elijah didn't say "tahnks you for raising the son from the dead" with his believing, no he asked God to bring to boy to life and trusted God and God was faithful and brought the boy to life.

Yes we can believe God and His promises, but we cannot believe in our believing to make things happen, that kinda cuts God out of the picture, if we can just believe for things.

See it's not our mind power via believing in our believing, it's God that instructs us, and when we trust him, God is faithful and fulfills His word. It's God that makes things happen, when we have faith in Him and trust Him not our believing in our believing.

I do not think you can "know" as in really get and live what the bible says unless you have a personal relationship with the Lord.

really I know of plenty of folks who can spew the bible verses and I feel no love in them I cant relate to their lack of compassion or the "fellowship" we are suppose to have with one another.

jesus wants us to love one another and if we get so academic we shun one another over what a book says we may be in big trouble.

Jesus asks us to come to Him as little children, Little children do NOT have the ability to memorize or have huge amounts of facts and figures about the bible in their head. do they?

yet that is the type of worship the Lord says is to be an example. l

Amen Pond, very well said.

But, as I've said before (and as others here have said, as well), the Bible reaveals God to us. The Bible isn't God.

Amen to that Mark.

God honors the believing of His promises.

You nailed it Skyrider. I completely agree! Mark, I like what you wrote too, and ex10 well said.

The believing in your believing and fear in the heart of that mother doctrines as taught by TWI were bogus.

We can believe or have faith in God and his promises, because God is faithful, but we cannot believe to make things happen just because we believe imo.

There is no biblical evidence that fear in the heart of mothers causes the death of their child. Or that if we have fear bad stuff will happen, I think we all know that from our experiences.

But we do have an adversary that may cause harm to us, and as ex10 said sometimes things happen!

My opinion is that most people who hold to PFAL, or retain a high percentage of Wierwille-taught doctrine don't critically examine what he taught.

This opinion is based only on what I see printed here, and from the few people who believe that way that I know personally. Since I don't physically interact with most of youse guys, that's all I have to go on.

What I mean by critically examine, is to start from scratch. This doesn't necessarily mean to throw everything out, but it does mean to look at everything with a fresh set of eyes. To me, this means to not just re-read the verse, check the Young's concordance and say "Yup, makes sense to me,VP was right", but to question ALL of his assumptions, his definitions, his methods.

Is your view of a section of scripture based upon a definition of a Greek word that you have only seen in Wierwille's works? Are all the "keys" to interpreting the bible actually true? Can you spot all the doctrinal strawmen that Wierwille throws out in his effort to discredit opposing ideas? Have you looked at the opposing doctrinal positions that make sense?

None of this has anything to do with Wierwille's character or originality. As Raf said, Wierwille's works stand or fall on their own merits.

BUT...

...someone whose moral character is reprehensible, who lies and plagiarizes, etc, etc, etc...

...is not someone who we should take at their word.

Well said Oak, I wholeheartedly agree!

sudossuda, welcome to the cafe.

Like ex10, I knew of some of the erroneous doctrines taught by VPW/TWI and some of the adultry etc. but I didn't know the volume of wrong doctrines, plagerism, sex etc. until reading waydale/greasepostcafe and doing some of my own investigation for a few years. I now believe quite a lot of what we were taught and practiced in TWI was wrong, and I believe a lot started with Mr. Wierwille.

"What would bring you the most satisfaction from posting here?"

For me it's the satisfaction of contributing or helping someone learn some truth about Jesus Christ and other areas of God's word that TWI taught wrong or didn't teach at all.

To see folks free themselves of the bondage of the controlling and not very godly cult called TWI.

To help those that have left TWI but are still idolizing Wierwille and his erroneous doctrines to be free from that bondage.

I also enjoy some good dialogue and fellowship from posting here, and I've learned from others who post here too.

Those are my most satisfying reasons for posting.

It has been my recent experience that those who are very solid Wierwille believers (not necessarily "Word" believers) tend in most part to "mark and avoid" those who do not take to his foundational doctrine and openly discuss or disagree with it.

While it is not called "mark and avoid", it is still the same behavior. I have to keep my mind off of it because it is hard. Even old friends that are still into Wierwille cut me off, refusing to email me or fellowship.

Total silence.

This does not "shame" me into coming back. It gets me angrier. I can't say the rest agree or disagree here, but it makes me want to look at Wierwille and say to him, "THIS is the EXAMPLE you set? THIS is what you taught? Did you set out on purpose to elevate yourself as a god to most people or what? Because it seems to have worked. You are not my God."

Then I just want to throw Wierwille and all his teachings out with the bathwater. I could care less now what Wierwille's followers think or believe after being treated like this.

Some ambassadors these people turned out to be.

I will continue to agree or disagree with Wierwille where and when I feel it is appropriate. If I am "heathen", fine. If I am a heretic, fine. But at least I kept my mind independent of being ruled by an image. They are REALLY going to not like what I write about next. Funny thing, though, I have more respect for TWI in this regard. They may have been callous toward the Wierwille family and I did not like that, but at least they seemed to have dropped the image.

Well, maybe in favor of a newer image, burt they dropped the Wierwille god concept.

Eagle.

Interesting observation Eagle. The Wierwillites, at least most of the one's I've known are very much as you describe, real loving aren't they? Not!

I know it's bogus, Out...

My point (tongue in cheek) was to offer an "explanation" for why Jesus is not glorified, taught, explained, expounded upon by TWI. Why? What possible explanation is there other than the TWI concentration on the Grace Administration? According to things I've seen on these threads, it has become as if He doesn't exist. So my "attempt" was a humorous explanation. (in TWI think)

Okay? :)

Love ya.

Okay, My Bad! :)

I kinda thought you were spoofing Top, but wasn't 100% sure, since you were "thinking out loud". And as ex10 said it's easy to misunderstand.

But sadly there are some who post here that still subscribe to that erroneous doctrine. I used your post as a springboard to mention that bogus doctrine, as I've done to other posts in times past. But I have had some PT me asking questions since they still buy into it and want to know why I don't. My hope is that some of the waybrained folks might wake up and learn some truth.

Anyway no hard feelings? I hope!

Okay, back to the topic of the thread. As you said "According to things I've seen on these threads, it has become as if He doesn't exist." and thats sad too! TWI taught us some stuff about Jesus Christ, but never taught us we can and should have a relationship with him and that we can fellowship with him and that he is an acting Lord, not just our savior, oops there I go ranting again. Sorry.

Peace.

Remember how VPW would teach in graphic detail about what happened to Jesus prior to his death-the beatings, tortures, etc-taking all our sins and disease upon Him?

You don't suppose-could it possible be-is it remotely concievable that........

He caused His own death because of negative believing?!?!?!.........

....and that's why we don't hear much about Him from TWI.....

Just thinking out loud.

Sorry topoftheworld, but that whole "all believing equals receiving" and "fear equals negative believing" doctrine was bogus.

If you care to know more just ask, and I'll be happy to share why that doctrine was wrong.

You cannot make things happen by believing for them or by having fear. Those were erroneous doctrines we were taught by Wierwille!

But, VPW did die of cancer and yet he taught that cancer was a devil spirit!

So, are they trinitarians now? or is Jesus Christ out of the picture altogether?

I noticed the little blurb in quotes doesn't mention the identity of the Lord being Jesus Christ at all.

So if a Muslim found this sight, I guess they'd be happy. ;)

;) ;) ;) ;)

I noticed this mysef ex10, But to me it's typical of TWI with it's absent Christ doctrine.

Did you ever notice the phrase "Lord thy God" does not appear anywhere in the New Testament? Well it does appear in the gospels, but not in the Epistles anywhere!

God made Jesus Christ Lord? Acts 2:36

And Philippians chapter 2:9-11 says;

"9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

and gave him the name that is above every name,

10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father. "

Jesus Christ is lord to the glory of God. Yet, in TWI he wasn't even mentioned at the AOS production, it was the "minister" that made intercession with God, Jesus was knowhere to be found in that pathetic show!

Not much of a Christian organization when they consider Christ absent?

Okay, I'm done with my rant!

If twi was and is about money. Why the purge of people whether they where labled possesed or homo's or for what ever reason? I know POP took a great toll on twi but the "great purge" had not yet taken place. Was it lcm's weird and paranoid mind? He had to see the money slipping away. Did he really believe he was doing Gods work and not care if he ended up with the homeless just so Gods Word would live? If he was being a buisness man? What sence did it make?

I also know the the defection of twi was when the Allen and twi law suite took place but why kick all those good green backs(money) out of twi?

Justloafing, you ask some good questions!

Personally I think VPW was very into money, he wanted to buy buildings, jets, motorcycles etc. He wanted to look important and be powerful and IMO that required some big money.

With Craig, I think he was more about power more then the money, and obviously didn't know how to handle that. Based on what I've read on all of Martindales moves with TWI I think he went off the deep end, or as Groucho said his cheese slipped off the cracker!

This is where I find the problem in what I think.

Was he a person that started as a rebel rouser, then had a true question in his heart about God? Then once he thought he had the answer from God, started twi. Then once he had the "power" to bring in people to show what he had learned that he turned back to his "Old Man" because of what was before him (young females) that believed everything he said and "fell" for his line of .....

Or did he think from the start that he could have YOUNG WOMEN and MONEY from the start?

I think we all would like that question answered, I've heard different theories but I really don't know, and as EX10 said, we won't know for sure in this lifetime.

I heard Dale Sides say in his taped sharing called "Jesus Christ Judgement on the Way international" that VP was given a genuine ministry but became under the influence of demons. He also said the audible voice VP heard was not Jesus Christ on this sharing. Well I don't know if Dale is correct or not, but he could be.

On the other side, where some believe he just conned us, I'm not sure of that either.

From WW's thread "The way living in wonderland" We learned that young VPW was a bully, a rebel, a showoff and the towns folk who knew VP thought it was a joke that he went into seminary, since it was so uncharacteristic of VP.

VPW admits in the book that he lost faith during seminary and admits he didn't believe in the Bible. He tells us that he did the opposite of what the Church leaders said being rebelous and when confronted he just yells at them, acting as a bully.

Then in 1942 he meets Rosilie Rinker who gets him to really believe in the Bible and read it instead of reading around it. He tells God that if he really wants VP to serve him that he needs a sign. Well According to VPW's account God made in snow. But the weather reports don't show snow for that day.

Well as you know VP decided to go into business for himself plagerizing various people and copying the bulk of B.G. Leonards class then adding from others such as Bullinger to it.

Is this what God taught him to do? I tend to doubt it! Did God truly teach VP the word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century? I find it difficult to believe God would wait 2000 years before VP came along to teach the word.

I believe there has been many people over the centuries that prayed to God for answers, why would God only choose VPW?

Sorry Justloafing, I have more questions then answers concerning VP. But I do believe we were taught some truth of God's word and I do believe we were conned to a certain degree.

Without question the scripture in the bible contains truth, revelation and words of God. But is our modern bible the word of God? in part yes and in part no. what I'm saying Johniam, is that that our modern English translation of the Bible is not the complete word of God, but does contain words of God.

I believe there has been some error that has crept into our modern translation, those who decided what books should be a part of the canon may have left out a book or two, I'm really not sure, but I believe the catholics have a few extra books added to thier bible which are not in the protestant bible translations.

The scripture in the bible does reveals Jesus Christ the living word of God, who gives us holy spirit that will help us have a greater understanding of God's will.

John 14:26

"26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

There are accounts all throughout the Bible of people seeing dead people, talking to spirits, etc. How did we go from that to "the dead are dead" and if you see dead people you're possessed? That seems to be private interpretation of the Bible and either camp could claim that THEIR interpretation is correct. I think the camp where you pitch your tent is going to be somewhat influenced by your personal experiences.

I don't mention this to discuss the dead, but to show how easy it is to say that YOU are living God's will according to the Bible with as much conviction as someone who also believes that HE/SHE is living God's will according to the Bible.

If someone has visions or talks to dead people or relies on something more than just the Bible in their personal walk with God, how can someone say that they are wrong? I suppose if a person is jealous, holier than thou or just plain ignorant, they would throw irrelevant scriptures at that person sayiing that it is a counterfiet experience. But that same ignorant soul would defend a person they liked, admired, worshipped or followed if that person were to have the same experience.

You can't use the Bible for that! That's personal feelings, emotions and reaction which we are all subject to. We are especially subject to stronger feelings in certain areas where we are open to recieving information from God. (Not subject to the exclusion of the God taught in the Bible)

IMO, to limit oneself to scriptures that we don't even know for sure who wrote them, why they wrote them, how accurate they are and so many other unknowns is seriously limiting the ability of God and the vibrancy of your own personal life.

Wierwille taught us that "the word fits with a mathematical exactness and a scientific precision" He said "it's the word, the word and nothing but the word" but he was speaking of the Bible only, as I understood him.

And of course he then interpreted it for us. IMO, as Coolwaters said, the Word of God is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

The Bible definately contains words from God and truths of God, but imo it doesn't always fit like a hand in a glove or an exact scientific precision etc. it's through the holy spirit that we can gain an understanding of scripture, of God, His will and of His son, the Lord Jesus Christ who always does the fathers will. Check out these scriptures;

John 14:15-17; 26

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.

26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 16:12-15

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Ephesians 1:13 -17

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

1 Corinthians 2:9-14

9However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no mind has conceived

what God has prepared for those who love him"[a]— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Is it? :huh:

I think so, here's something interesting, check it out.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/panin.htm

Biblically speaking, the Word of God is Jesus.

What is God's will? To try and contain it in a book that was 'written' with no particular point because it was never a book to begin with, but a collection of letters and opinions and recountings, is like trying to contain the ocean in cupped hands.

IMO.

Good post CoolWaters.

Here's another interesting link;

http://100prophecies.org/prophecy.htm

I do take it as a good sign that CFF is aware of my opinions yet still regularly invites my husband to teach at their services. Plus, they've never tried to muzzle me.

But then again, can you imagine what would happen to anyone who tried to?

I take that as a good sign too. CFF is fortunate to have you and your hubby.

Actually, since I am speaking out more forcefully here out of sheer frustration, I can honestly say I expect it from current TWI members. If they say anything to me, I can just tell them to Shut UP and move on. Nothing I can do for them.

What bothered me were the others that left TWI and joined other groups hanging to Wierwille's every word from the past. And even then, there were the Geerites who won't accept criticism of him either. I have to wonder if anyone should even bother joining a splinter group like CFF, CES, or Vince Finnegan's group or any other group and just go back to church as we did. Ignoring these groups seems to me to help to avoid these kinds of people who just CANNOT BE CIVIL OR KIND with someone not involved with their group.

Have to say the more I think about it the angrier I get. You can bet that the ones who cut off from me over this will surely get their wish and never hear from me again. My God, a lot of these people cannot handle a simple diversion from the Blue Book no matter how accurate the information portrayed from the Bible against some of it is.

I can handle those that disagree with me here...no problem here. They just disagree and we move on to the next topic and talk about that. I don't mind disagreement. I mind being treated as a "heathen", that's what I mind.

Well, now every one knows how upset I am over this. Sorry if I sound over the edge.

Eagle

I hear ya Eagle, I've run into that myself.

But It's not all offshoots that act this way, at least from my experience. LMCI (Dale Sides) started out praising Wierwille in 94, but by 96 was talking about how many if not most of Wierwille's doctrines and practices were wrong. He now teaches almost everything different then Wierwille/TWI.

CES started out talking about Wierwille's wrong doctrines sexcapades etc. Which helped me break free of idolizing him. And motivated me to study on my own to see if these things were so. But maybe they have changed since my involvement, I really don't know and at this point, I really don't care.

But I was involved in two groups that did and maybe still highly esteem Wierwille, CFF and Geers group. And it's quite possible they have changed since my involvement. I don't know about the other offshoots.

I did know of some hardcore Wierwillites that were involved with CFF and Geer associated groups in years past. However, reading Catcups post makes me think CFF may have changed. At least it sounds like Catcups fellowship has grown past hanging on all of Wierwille's doctrines, and I applaud them for this. Hopefully all of CFF has stopped teaching his erroneous doctrines and idolizing him as the MOG.

I agree with you Eagle, that church is better then the offshoots, at least for me it is. But those who are still "waybrained" may benefit from some of the offshoots that will teach differently then Wierwille/TWI, yet still have a sense of familiarity to many of his doctrines. It helped me, I like to refer to it as a halfway house to "de-waybrain".

But It's sad that some Christians can get so arogant and prideful towards their group. As Rascal said it's silly. So hang in there Eagle, many of us have been and are still dealing with these type of arogant and prideful people, someday maybe they will grow up in Christ and act in a more loving manner.

Should we go back?

In 1988 just after I left, I thought I might go back if TWI ever corrected their erroneous doctrines and practices, and truly started loving God and it's followers. But I have yet to see this, and in fact since leaving, I discovered that TWI was worse then I even imagined.

As a Christian, I'm commanded to love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength,

Mark 12:30 (NIV)

'30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

It's one thing to follow a group like TWI ignorantly believing they are a godly organization teaching the truth of God's word, like I did in the past, and like I believe some of the followers do today. But If I knowingly followed such a corrupt group as TWI that teaches wrong doctrines and has hurt so many, supporting them finacially and otherwise, how is this loving to God?

Now I honestly have not found any organization, i.e. a church or offshoot that I can agree with 100%, so for me I keep independant. I do occassionally attend church, to fellowship, pray and worship God with other Christians, but I refuse to join 100% since I don't agree with all their doctrines, but at least they don't kick you out, at least the churches I've attended.

And I have supported some churches in areas such as feeding the homeless, or missionary work, but I don't soley support just one church or organization finacially or otherwise. I have also on occassion bought some some tapes or books from some of the offshoots, and have given finacially to some of them as well, but will not completely support them either. At this time, I believe this is what God wants from me.

If your only eating off the plate of one ministry or minister, then you not getting a balanced diet, spiritually speaking, IMO. And any organization, like TWI that teaches it's followers to only follow them and their doctrines is not godly.

So as far as going back to TWI, well, now that I know about TWI's wrong doctrines and practices, IMO going back and supporting TWI would not be the most loving thing I can do for God.

Here ya go Rascal;

Galatians 5:19-25 (NIV)

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

BTW, you can get the online version of the NIV Bible here;

http://www.ibs.org/niv/

Thank you jkboehme.

Just for the record, since I saw it in WW's post, whom I do read and whom I do respect, I have Mike and Allan set to be ignored, have recently added OM and am currently considering adding yet one more poster to that setting. I happen to LOVE having that option! I can't recommend it highly enough!

Why should it matter to me if someone is ignoring me? I choose to correspond with those who want to correspond with me. I certainly don't waste my time worrying about or hanging around people who don't like me - it just frustrates both of us.

I hear ya Belle, for me I find many of the posters I disagree with sometimes entertaining to read. Gems I might miss would be things like Jesus coming back teaching out of pfal, good for a laugh anyway.

If I don't want to read someone's post I just go past it, but I do sometimes skim posts to at least get the context of the conversation in the thread.

Many times when I skip a post, someone I enjoy reading has replied to that person and I end up going back to read the poster I don't enjoy reading, plus I like a balanced discussion. If we all just agreed on a topic, it would be boring, don't you think?

Even if the person is completely wrong in their point, it makes a better discussion getting others to post with more details to make the correct points, at least IMO.

So I decided not to use the ignore option. But there are some nasty posters too, that usually have no valid points and just like to call people names or make fun of or harass those that disagree with them, so I do understand why you like that option.

Bottom line was that twi was nothing more than another version of Amway with bible verses thrown in...

Let's give the devil his due...Wierwille was a slick salesman. He not only had the personality to draw people in but he also set up a pretty snazzy recruitment organization...

First it started with pfal, then the roa, then go out wow and finally, you're ready to go into the corps...

EVERYTHING that twi did was about shaking people down for their money...and like an animal that eats it's own young, twi not only recruited people into their cult but also turned them into a free workforce. Exploitation was their forte and bait and switch was their tactic.

Groucho is right!

When I was an apprentice corpse, we were always sent on witnessing assignments and were told we had to sign up at least one person for da class or we couldn't go in residence.

Well, it was getting late in the year and I hadn't signed anyone up. I really didn't want to fail, I thought desperate times called for desperate measures. I'm ashamed to admit this but I went to a bar, found a not too attractive woman and asked her to dance, then started taking her out. In case your wondering I didn't sleep with her, but she was infatuated enough with me that a few weeks later she signed up for the class.

Jimmy Doop gives us some information from this time period in his most recent publication, When the Hippies Found Jesus: Ears to Hear: A True Story of the Sixties.

Has this book been published? And if so, where can I order a copy?

BTW WW, David Anderson would be familiar with much of this timeframe, he doesn't post very often but you might try emailing him. Just a thought.

Heres some info from the archives, This covers a wide range of years, but theres some good info on the early years. I know WW has see this, but there's some newbies that may not have.

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...2268entry2268

I think in TWI, we really weren't taught the proper appreciation for Jesus's life and his accomplishments. Whenever Jesus was mentioned there was always a "yeah, but...." attached to it.

IMO, there is no "yeah, but..." and I've pretty much chucked as much of that attitude as I can. ;)

I hear ya Belle.

TWI taught us the Jesus Christ was absent. And while he may be absent physically on earth, at times, if he chooses , he is not absent spiritually.

The Bible make it clear we can and should have fellowship with Jesus Christ (I John 1:3)

Stephen prayed/talked with Jesus Christ. (Acts 7:59,60)

Jesus Christ is the head of the body, not the BOT's of TWI (Ephesians 1:20-23)

Jesus Christ is our mediator and intercedes for us with God (Hebrews 7:24 and 25; Romans 8:34)

Jesus Christ strengthens us (Philippians 4:13)

Jesus Christ gives revelation (Galatians 1:11-12)

How can we not communicate with Jesus Christ if he's doing all these things? How can he be absent?

Unfortunately when your taught about an absent Christ, who is supposed to be our Lord, people in TWI had a tendency to replace his lordship with some "leader" in TWI.