What The Hey

I've been on this chat board for a number of years and still see and often end up reading posts by the same hurting people who have also been posting here for a number of years. What I've learned is hurting people usually only end up hurting themselves and they also end up hurting others who are easily offended. They are still speaking out of hurt but they haven't dealt with their hurt honestly. Someone starts talking critically of someone, but if you were truly spiritual you would step in and say, "I see you have this brother or sister in Christ on your heart. We need to pray for them. You lead the prayer."

That doesn't work here because that would shut a lot of people up pretty quick. Of course one can always do it in a self-righteous, 'holier-than-thou' way or one can do it out of love. Doing it out of love would probably convict someone though, but it's still your choice on how to do it. The reason a lot of people are still dealing with hurt is because they haven't learned to recognize the source and answered it. They haven't learned yet how to speak back to offences and recognized it for what it is or learned how to take the 'life support' off of it.

To have and lead a life of victory one has to know how to deal with an offence whenever it comes toward them, but many have never learned the lesson on how to deal with offences so they continue to nuture those offences instead of rooting them out. The bible says bitterness when it takes root will defile you. (Hebrews 12:15) Other things got planted on the inside and they watered and nurtured those things, and some people are still dealing with those things many, many, many years later. Why? Because they watered and "nurtured" those offences. They not only sprouted, but they now have become really BIG ISSUES to deal with - especially when it effects your emotions and your decisions. When people get mad or angry they say things and make a lot of wrong decisions they never would have made if those offences had not gotten on the inside and grown.

A lot of people think they are "speaking out of reality" but in truth they are only "speaking out of their own emotions". Emotions are never a good source of reality, especially when people keep bringing up offences that have continued to bother them for years on end. They are not only deceiving themselves, but they are also deceiving and misleading you and others as well. The problem being that most Christians don't know anything about how to deal with the voices of offence that come to them. As the bible says, there are many voices in the world - but one has to learn to recognize those different voices.

One would think and believe God Himself must lead by offence by the topics of choice here and by the way some post and respond to other people's posts. They obviously think it's God who is leading them. Now years later you're still offended by something that happened to you many years, and you still think it's the true God who is leading you but He's not. Get a clue. Get over the offence first, and then see what God says. I am sure not too many people understand what I'm talking about because they've spent too much time listening to all the other voices that come to them and are still having problems dealing with those voices.

Sometimes I have to say these things because some people don't even realize what they are doing. Things got planted on the inside of them and then others come along and they keep on watering it and nurturing it and then they start growing. Once they start growing they are going to start bearing fruit - good or bad. The reason some people are still dealing with "bad things" is largely because they haven't taken the life support off of it. The best thing of course is not let those things take root whenever offences come. In other words, don't deny that it's there.

Here's a thought. Recognize the hurting person is only hurting themselves - they are speaking out of hurt. Sometimes hurting people even hurt people. We've all done it at some point and time. But one has to learn to recognize the source and how to properly answer it by not returning evil for evil. Rather you learn to return good by first recognizing how God has been good to you, and then you return good for evil. You don't let it get in, you deal with it immediately. If it gets in and stays in, it will get a root just like Hebrews 12:15 says and then it will start to grow. Once something gets a root, it's much harder to get out. The larger the root is, the harder it is to pull the thing out. If a sapling starts to sprout up in your yard where you don't want a tree, the best time to pull it out is when it is still a sapling, not when it's a giant redwood. If you let it get that big then you're not going to be able to pull that thing out - not by yourself. You may have to get the chainsaw and then it still isn't completely out! It will start popping little shoots up off the stump you left behind. When it takes up a whole lot of ground on the inside of you, then you really have something very difficult to deal with - something you might not be able to deal with very easily. So you don't give it any time. You respond immediately, and you respond in love. The reason many people are still mad and can't forgive other people is largely because they didn't respond to the offence immediately. But most of us, well, we just let the thing grow. Remember your emotions and even theirs is not a good source for reality in this time of offence. Emotions will only deceive and mislead you. Get pass the offence first and then see what God is saying to you. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

Here's a second thought. None of us would be posting on GSC except for the fact we all stem from the same "Way Tree" and we all have some real deep roots to deal with because of that - roots that are both good and bad. James 3:14 says, "But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth." In other words, don't deny that it's there. Don't say, "I'm not offended." Yea, I notice your sliding back now. I had your attention and you were sitting in the front row and now your sliding further back to the second. Don't look at me in that tone of voice. I've been sharing the truth with others for a long time. I know how it works. I've got eyes and I see exactly where people are going with this. It happens every time. People initially get close, but once they get offended by someone or by something that someone did they back off. Then you don't see them at all. "What happend to so-and-so?" I'll tell you what happened. They got offended. Then they say, "Everything's all right." No. Everythings not alright. If your not offended then we shouldn't be seeing the fruit of offence. But that's all most people ever see.

What is the fruit of offence? Seperation is one. So don't deny it. Another thing is, recognize the damage it is doing. Acknowledge the Word of God because the Word of God tells you it is doing damage. It seperates people, it shuts down your faith in God and His Word, it effects your emotions and so forth. We've all been over that. Recognize the Word of God because it is affecting you whether you think it is or not. Recognize that you are in a spiritual prison. In other words, you must recognize that Satan is trapping you whenever you hold on to offences. He' binding you up, but even many Christians don't recognize just how bound up they are. They think, "Well, I'll just uh.." but then they start seething on the inside thinking they aren't retaliating and that it's not effecting them, but they are just getting bound up.

Sometimes the devil does things slow - just like a frog that won't jump out of the water when it gradually gets hot. If you take a frog and throw it into hot water it will immediately jump out. But put him in water he likes and gradually increase the temperture, he'll stay put and get cooked right there not realizing he is getting cooked alive. That is the way the devil works. He just gradually gets things into some people. More and more he gets things into people. Their hurting. Then someone comes along and then hurts them again. Then someone else does it again and then they are all burned up and burned out with life.

I'll just close with this verse for you to think on further - something we should all strive for. Acts 24:16

And herein do I exercise myself, to have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man.

The PFAL Song

PFAL has something just for you.

It teaches you keys to unlock those doors

and how to walk right through.

And if you want to have a powerful life

and one that's more than abundant too,

Than PFAL is the class for you!

(70's flashback)

Rick Josey is merely presenting the same old message being preached in many chuches across America and on TV: Give your life to Jesus and he will prosper you: $$$, health, relationships, etc. It's a widely popular message in Americanized Christianity today because who wouldn't love to worship a God that is only out to bless you and make you prosperous? These false preachers never present the otherside of the coin - that is, that the true God is also out to test you - AND HE WILL! The true God tests his true worshippers to prove their love for Him. The story of Job is a prime example of that testing. When Job's life got hard and tough, where was Job's love for God?

TWI taught all the difficulty and trouble Job experienced was brought on him by the devil or that the devil is always bad and that God is always good. The reason TWI fell short doctrinally here is because many people in TWI believed (many still do) that any difficulty I or you experience in life has to be due to and is brought upon us by the devil. Any difficulty or trouble you are having is because YOU don't have enough believing (or you aren't applying enough biblical principles - tithing, etc) to ward off the devil - therefore you have a "HOLE" in that "Hedge of God's Protection" yada, yada, yada. These 'spiritual counselors' in TWI in reality became no better than Job's miserable comforters. The reason they must have a "spritual answer" for everything is to make themselves look "spiritual" in their eyes as well as the eyes of everybody else.

Maybe the real reason bad things happen to us is simply because, well, this isn't heaven yet - and all the "believing you put forth and the Godly principles you apply" isn't going to change that fact one iota. Heaven was made for comfort, the earth was made for testing - and the real reason for all the problems and difficulty we experience now is simply because this isn't heaven yet. Any other thoughts?

ususally it ends up being not an enlightenening but rather mind numbing experience.

I believe that all depends on if you are searching the Word of God to clear up an apparent contridiction, or if you are looking to contribute to one.

Every usage of the word "the" might be a bit "challenging".. kinda like trying to get to know every Smith in a Manhattan directory..

But really. "What difference does it make?"

The difference might depend on whether or not if it makes the Word of God contradict itself or not. When dealing with 'The' Holy Spirit or 'the' holy spirit it certainly does. (According to VPW the article 'the' does not appear in the early manuscripts or in the critical Greek texts, and therefore it is an interpretation rather than a translation. See page 3, Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, paragraph 2.)

I heard vic work over dechomai and lambano in an old SNS.. I was amazing how one can twist reality and scripture itself to fit some kind of mathmatically exact meaning to a given greek word..

I am not sure 'what it is' you're specifically addressing here. My notes say: dechomai = to receive subjectively. Lambano= to receive into manifestation. I can receive (dechomai) a tool, but that doesn't necessarily mean or imply I have received (lambano) the results from using that tool.

reminds me of Bertrund Russel. He found a contradiction in mathmatics set theory if not reality itself.. and trying to fix it took him something like a few hundred pages of proofs (don't quote me on the exact number) before he even came to the conclusion that one plus one equals two..

Did he come up with: 2 malifactors + 2 robbers = 4 crucified with Jesus Christ?

That is still simple addition - even to me, and I don't claim to have studied the mathematical theorums of Bertrund Russel either.

It's hard to not "demonize the enemy" when they merely do it to themselves..

Anton Lavey did a pretty good job of it..

I think he got what he wanted. Painted the place so "unclean" that self-righteous hucksters and the like wouldn't even think of knocking on the door for a donation.. even if he sent them a donation.. one look on the check, and they'd send it back..

Honestly.. wear a red suit and horns in public, or was it a black suit..

"Honestly, sit there and think for once in your life.."

We should have taken the grifter up on the challenge..

"Self-demonization" has always been a martyr's tool. Underhanded, perhaps, but it does get some people's sympathy.

Like some guy crucifying HIMSELF on the witness stand as some kind of "expert"..

it wasn't the government.. the prosecutor.. the judge.. he really did it to himself.

If he was what he really claimed to be, his "profession" would still be intact.. maybe be out of public favor, but he'd still be practicing real engineering.

Martyrdom may be noble.. for the right cause and such..

but why sacrifice something that you do NOT have for the "cause".. it's ludicrous..

"I'll sacrifice my fortune for the cause."

in my case, right now it's about $153.98.

I wouldn't compare this to the poor widow woman.. she hardly had media and people sounding horns as her "greatness" threw in the few mites..

I don't recall Fred Leuchter demonized himself, but there are certainly plenty of people who want to "shut him up" - just like they want to shut up: Ernst Zundel, Dr. Fredrick Toben, Paul Rassiner, Dr. Robert Faurisson, Thies Christophersen, Wilhelm Stäglich, Joseph Burg, Professor Arthur Butz, Haviv Schieber, Francois Duprat, Ditlieb Felderer, Professor Austin App, Jim Keegstra, Frank Walus, Emil Lachout, well the list goes on and on ....

And all these people are demonizing or crucifying themselves because they believe a lie? (or is it because they have rejected one?)

BTW... Stalin committed his worst crimes well before Hitler's major atrocities got under way.

We have forgotten that Germany alone did not spark the Second World War. Germany and the U.S.S.R. jointly invaded Poland in 1939; Stalin then attacked Finland. Two years later, Britain and the U.S.S.R. invaded neutral Iran. History indeed remains the propaganda of the victors.

If we keep hectoring Germany and Japan to admit guilt for events of the 1940s, is it not time the United States, Britain and Canada admit their own culpability in allying themselves to Stalin, a monster who killed over four times the number of Hitler's victims?

The reason we have demonized the enemy is so our own allying with Stalin who killed: "four times the number of Hitler's victims' comes off looking holier-than-thou'. To the majority of us US citizens I believe, yes, indeed it does. But what must it appear like to the rest of the world?

Hi, Mike~

I saw the cartoon, and it seemed to say, in so many "words",

""C'mon back to pfal!", assuming that that WAS the God-breathed Word. The ensuing discussions were an attempt to refute that (faulty, IMO) premise.

~Cinder

It seems to me the subject of debate today is whether or not "Coming back to PFAL" = "Coming back to the 'God-breathed' Word." Many PFAL grads were introduced to the keys for rightly dividing of the Word of God in PFAL. But that is where many PFAL grads stop - at the introduction. PFAL provided only a few examples and a few illustrations of how those keys to biblical interpretation worked, but it did not go into the greater depth or into greater detail on the working of those keys. I came to realize this at a 'Weekend in the Word' event shortly after I took the PFAL class in 1976.

Those 'Weekend in the Word' functions took place (if my memory is correct) sometime in the late 1970's (around 1976-79 if I recall). I believe this to be correct because these weekend functions took place shortly after TWI came out with the first publication of JCING which was published in 1975. TWI was starting to take a lot of heat from the religious community, as a number of theological publications by the "religious community" were attempting to discredit TWI and VPW's interpretation of many Greek words (i.e. pros meaning = together with, yet distinctly independant of) to defend "orthodox Trinitarian" doctrine.

Those "Weekend in the Word" functions were essentially my first introduction to individual biblical word studies. Sorry to disappoint a lot of the VPW critics here, but VPW didn't pull out a Webster's dictionary at the Weekend in the Word event (like many bible critics do to define their terms - or some other dictionary other than Noah Webster's) to support his own novel interpretations of the Greek and ancient biblical languages. Nope. Again, VPW demonstrated to us PFAL grads exactly HOW the Word of God - the Scriptures intreprets itself - by using the bible's OWN WORDS! You don't need a Webster's dictionary written by Noah Webster (or any other modern dictionary for that matter) to discover the truths taught in the Word of God. It will however, take a lot of your time. To see how one single word is used accurately throughout the scriptures can take hours of time.

But today we don't have the time for doing any of that. Some people apparently have enough time to: "refute all that". If that is all you're into - then you will have a very hard time convincing me you know the meaning of the Greek words for heteros and allos, (just like many Greek words you think you know the meaning of) when you really don't care if there were 2 or 4 "others" crucified with Jesus Christ. If you're someone who thinks the only cross that mattered was the one Jesus was on (and that is all that matters to you - the cross Jesus was on) then you certainly don't care about the "others" (whether you think it should be the Greek word heteros or allos that ought to be used) that were crucified with Christ!

What brought all of this on? Because the question apparently is, does coming back to the God-breathed Word also = coming back to PFAL? I realize people here have a very hard problem with this idea, because to them "coming back to PFAL" also implies a TON of negative things. To many here it means reading (or re-reading) a book written by VPW to perhaps even rejoining TWI, to just about anything and a combination of things inbetween. As George Lucas said while he was directing Star Wars III, "We can't go back. There is no back, there is only forward." So what does "coming back to PFAL" or "coming back to the God-breathed Word" really imply to you if there is no back or going back?

...

In each of the situations you listed, your impression is mistaken.

Perhaps it is you who are mistaken my friend - about a great many things.

Someone's pretending vpw didn't do the evil deeds they did, and pretending the Bible didn't condemn actions he did.

Someone else is pretending they are holier-than-thou while pretending the Bible actually supports their arrogant, self-righteous, religous attitutude.

(But I don't believe they are pretending - they're just being hypocrites.)

Once again, WTH's posts have lost connection with the thread they're on.

vpw DID horrific acts. Period.

But your sins are holier than VPW's - or perhaps someone else you don't like in TWI?

(Or maybe we're supposed to be convinced you are the sinless one?)

He is to be blamed for the horrific acts he did.

By the same measure you can be blamed for the sins and horrific acts YOU'VE done .

(But since WW's sins are holier-than-thou that apparently excuses all of his sins and all his "horrific acts". Yeah, right.)

Why do we bring it up?

Because the: 'whoever the "we are" who keep bringing it up' are either denying (or are ignorant) of the work and accomplishments of Jesus Christ.

Because claiming he did not, and made-up virtuous acts are attributed to him, and used for propaganda purposes.

This is easy, since vpw himself did this for more than a decade.

This is actually WW denying (or being ignorant of) the work Jesus Christ accomplished to remit sins, as one has to deny the accomplished work of Jesus Christ to still lay the blame for VPW's sins on him - just as I would have to deny the works of Jesus Christ to still lay the blame for your sins and your "horrific acts" on you! If we can still blame VPW's for all of his sins, by the same measure we can still blame you for all of yours. This is merely someone either denying (or being ignorant) of the accomplished work of Jesus Christ.

As I stated earlier, this is purposely making VPW the so someone can appear to everyone else like: and using the bible to do it.

I frankly don't give a c**p about "someone's" interpretation of the bible - especially when their interpretation is USED to make themselves appear holy and righteous at the expense of condeming someone else. THAT IS WHAT PROPAGANDA IS ABOUT! It is also the reason I could care less about any of the remarks WW made after this.

...

WW

Since others DID see him teach this, you have 2 choices.

A) Accept that he did this, at least SOME of the time.

B) Call all the eyewitnesses liars, cover your ears, and insist that you know THE Truth

on vpw no matter what anyone else saw or heard from him.

WTH has selected Option B. Which is his choice.

Why is it that Christian extremists always present only two alternatives when a third and a right alternative exists - which of course, I presented here. WW apparently has a problem with that third and right alternative - the one dealing with "false witnesses". (But then, "false witnesses" are not at GSC according to WW. Yeah, right!)

Christian extremists are also guilty of: "Demonizing the Enemy" - and presenting only two alternatives when a third and right alternative exists helps them accomplish that. I already addressed "Demonizing the Enemy" to Rascal in the "Get Over It" thread - post# 38, so I won't go over it again in this one.

The words are pretty clear and concise. I am sorry that contradicts what you personally wish to believe.

Believe me, I understand that Galatians 5 has to be ignored entirely, in order for vpw to have any credibility or his doctrine to be reliable. How convenient in order to dismiss the evil that he did in his life time

I am sorry, but it states clearly and simply ....the people who do what wierwille did are of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God pure and simple. People who are of the spirit behave in an entirely different manner...

Jesus said that fruit of the spirit was how we would recognise one another.

Wierwille fails the test.

Sounds more like someone is purposely making VPW the so they can appear to everyone else like: and using the bible to do it.

But you're not the only one doing it. I recognize it for what it is.

What is it - really?

This is: "Demonizing the Enemy". Evil needs a face. We make up horrific acts for which we blame our "enemy" and use them for propaganda purposes. We did it with Japan and Spain in previous wars. Emotionally-laden propaganda techniques are dangerous and incredibly destructive. They do not serve humanity, promote peace and understanding between people. They serve and promote politics. Vicious depictions have always been used to whip up support for both political and religious causes. You can not fight a war and get others to fight your war without demonizing your enemy first.

WTH tends to oversimplify anything he doesn't like. For example, one person's eyewitness testimony is one thing, but when dozens of people step forward, and a consistent picture is presented from all their testimony,that's entirely another.

The only problem is, the consistent picture being presented is a distorted one.

That's why GOD'S WORD mentions the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses to establish things, but WTH's not convinced with dozens if he dislikes their testimony.

Wrong. Paul stated 2 or 3 witnesses were needed to establish "that proof of Christ speaking in me" (2 Corinthians 13:3) which has nothing to do with what WW is trying very hard to establish - but can't do it. (AT LEAST, NOT WITH ME!)

Paul wasn't telling people everything is established by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses - which apparently WW is telling people and also believes is possible. For example: Many people testified saying Christ would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days. There were certainly more than 2 or 3 of them, so what about their [ahem] "testimony" against Jesus Christ? Was their "eyewitness testimony" as credible as what WW wants people to believe eyewitness testimony is?

That is why God's Word speaks more loudly against false witnesses - and there certainly are more than 2 or 3 false witnesses out there. Those people would be more apt to hold their tounge if they truly believed God's Word - as they are going to have to give an account for every idle word spoken in the day of judgement. (Matthew 12:36,37)

WTH also tends to have a problem with people whom he disagrees.

No. I just have a problem with false witnesses.

....

Since others DID see him teach this, you have 2 choices.

A) Accept that he did this, at least SOME of the time.

B) Call all the eyewitnesses liars, cover your ears, and insist that you know THE Truth

on vpw no matter what anyone else saw or heard from him.

It's your choice.[/b]

WW tends to overlook the third alternative - which is, many times "eyewitness accounts and testimonies" just don't jive with the facts.

He also tends to have a problem with people who recognize that as well.

I wonder why some people question the way the church spends money more than the way the government spends money. A church spends 20K for a toilet while the governent spend $3000 for a coffee pot and $500 for a hammer - and the government thinks a church's spending is "out of line?"

Hmmmm.... Where are the kippers?

I dedicate this video to all those TV Evangelists out there who believe their God's man (or woman) and have somehow been called by God.

They build their TV ministries off of people's hard earned $$$, but most people never bother to ask the very last question shown in the clip:

I gotta say this: If Joyce Meyer has led one soul to Christ, if she has helped one person to live the life Jesus intended, if she is setting people free from bondage, if she is teaching them to claim their rights as children of the Most High God, then God bless her!

She can have all the Cadillacs, nice hotels, employees, 18 wheelers, manicures and facelifts (or whatever she has) she wants.

Maybe it would be wise to stop looking at what she has and listen to what she says!

WG

The only problem is, there has to be a whole lot of "ifs" for her to account for to justify having all those Cadillacs, nice hotel rooms, etc.

Well, that's Americanized Christianity for you. It just goes to show and to prove to people exactly what it consists of.

I wouldn't put the numbers QUITE so high, but I'd say most of the people and intentions were good.

The thing is, if his sole intention was to discover truth, his approach would have been different. According to Uncle Harry, vpw was never seen as a kid to be devout. According to the locals, his personality was completely irreverent and disrespectful. He went to school to study-HOMILETICS, not Bible languages, or anything for DISCOVERING TRUTH. He remained deficient in understanding what he could- how much time did he put into working what was translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example? It was available for almost his entire career...

He himself chafed when he had to answer to ANYONE, and his response (per "Born Again to Serve") to supposedly hearing from God was that "everyone would listen to me". Doesn't sound very devout to me... When he got ahold of something useful for Bible students, he slapped his name on it pretty quickly, and made a point of doing so as completely as possible. When he took BG Leonard's class, he QUICKLY ran it, with his own name and saying it was HIS OWN class, 3 months after he retook it. He told Leonard he was teaching Leonard's class, and told the students it was HIS OWN class. vpw intended to plagiarize that from the beginning. As for the White Book, it was the textbook for "the class"- and it was Stiles' book with vpw's name on it.

I don't think they "became areas of disobedience"-that makes it sound like he was doing fine and these came in afterwards- he PLANNED to plagiarize from the moment he took Leonard's class and got Stiles' book. (We examined this in "the way:living in wonderland".) As for adultery, it seems he made elaborate plans to facilitate that, and made occasion for it whenever and wherever he could. Why else would he tell anyone God was ok with ORGIES? Why else would he display pornographic materials (like his dirty pen) to young people? Why else would he find it acceptable to show them dirty movies involving sex acts with animals? Did all that make him evil?

That's not for me to judge. ...

Oh really? You could have fooled me.

WW's still playing the: Judgement Game - the same ol' tune from the same ol' record ...

I hate to burst your bubble pal, but we've heard that tired out song a long time ago and certainly long before WW came along singing the tune.

.

Sounds serious.

Odd how Hans Hertel didn't treat it as serious.

Not true. For over a decade Dr. Hans Hertel has been fighting for the right to let the world know what he has discovered. Of course there is a reason [a legal one] behind that fight. (For details, see the non-bolded blue comment outside of this quote below.)

=======

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m081...32/ai_n13664949

Here's how to separate microwave fact from fiction.

It all started with Hans Hertel.

The Swiss food chemist and seven fellow vegetarians confined themselves to a hotel for two months in the late 1980s. There, they consumed milk and vegetables prepared in the microwave oven and in other ways. Hertel emerged with an astonishing pronouncement. Eating microwaved milk and vegetables caused changes in the men's blood that "appear to indicate the initial stage of a pathological process such as occurs at the start of a cancerous condition."

Hertel didn't actually find that microwaved food caused cancer. And his "study," which no researchers have tried to reproduce, was never peer-reviewed of published in a scientific journal.

While some of Hertels findings remain to be replicated, other recent research in Britain and the U.S. has unearthed other possible hazards. In 1990 at the University of Leeds, two scientists in the Department of Medical Microbiology studied the uneven heating that can be caused by microwave ovens. They found that the salt content in a specified portion of mashed potatoes influenced its inside temperature - the greater the salt content, the lower the temperature. The authors concluded that "the poor penetration of microwaves into the test food with high ionic concentrations may result from the induction of electrical / ionic flow in the surface of the food. This would also explain why commercial food heated in microwaves boils on the surface but is cool on the inside" (Nature, 1990; 344:496).

"Without knowing more about how he conducted his study, what he measured, how he measured it, and what he found, it's impossible to even begin to evaluate his findings," says Barry Swanson, a food scientist at Washington State University in Pullman.

Mr. Swanson simply may not be aware of these facts: Dr. Hertel, a food scientist who worked for several years for one of the international Swiss food companies, joined forces with Professor Bernard Blanc of the Federal Institute of Technology to conduct an extensive research programme on the effects of microwaved food on humans. Although the programme was turned down by the Swiss National Fund, the two scientists decided to fund a smaller research programme themselves.

They selected eight people from the Macrobiotic Institute at Kientel in Switzerland all of whom, including Hertel himself, adherents to strict macrobiotic diets to minimise the presence of confounding elements affecting blood measures. Except for Hertel who was 64 at the time, all were aged between 20 and 40. As Hertel told "What Doctors don't tell you":

We all lived in the same hotel for eight weeks and there was no smoking, no alcohol and no sex. At intervals of two to five days, the volunteers received one of eight possible food sources on an empty stomach: raw milk from a biofarm; the same milk conventionally cooked; the same raw milk cooked in a microwave oven; pasteurised milk from conventional sources; raw vegetables from organic farm; the same vegetables cooked conventionally; the same vegetables frozen and defrosted in a microwave; and the same vegetables cooked in a microwave. Blood samples were taken from each volunteer immediately before eating, then at specified intervals after eating the above preparations.

Significant changes were observed in the blood of those who had consumed microwave food, which included a reduction in all haemoglobin and cholesterol values, both the high-density lipoproteins ('good' cholesterol) and low density lipoproteins ('bad' cholesterol) (Nexus, 1995; April-May: 25-7).

Hertel has dropped out of public view. So has William Kopp, described only as a "U.S. researcher," who wrote an article in 1996 claiming that Cold War research in the Soviet Union had proven the dangers of microwave ovens.

"People who ingested microwaved foods showed a statistically higher incidence of stomach and intestinal cancers, plus a general degeneration of peripheral cellular tissues and a gradual breakdown of the function of the digestive and excretory systems," Kopp wrote.

The Soviet research was never published and the institute where it was conducted, in what is now the Republic of Belarus, no longer exists. (The former Soviet Union may have banned microwave ovens for a short period, but no countries ban them today.) Kopp himself reportedly changed his name and vanished, believing that the appliance industry was out to persecute him.

It was not until the 1970's that the first reports started appearing casting doubt on the safety of food cooked in a microwave. Histological studies with microwaved broccoli and carrots revealed that the molecular structures of nutrients were deformed to the point of destroying cell walls whereas, in conventional cooking, the cell structures remain intact (Journal of Food Science, 1975; 40:1025-9). BTW - Microwave ovens were banned in Russia in 1976; the ban was lifted after Perestroika.

While Hertel and Kopp are no longer around, their unsubstantiated charges are all over the Internet.

Only WW could make an unsubstantiated claim like this. The truth of the matter is, Dr. Hertel's discoveries are being corroborated by evidence cropping up here and there all over the world.

"The prolonged eating of microwaved foods causes cancerous cells to increase in human blood," says "10 Reasons to Throw Out your Microwave Oven," an article by Joseph Mercola, an Illinois alternative-medicine physician who operates what he says is the "#1 Natural Health Site" on the Internet (www.mercola.com).

Foods cooked in microwave ovens are "a recipe for cancer," adds medical journalist Simon Best on his Electromagnetic Hazard and Therapy Web site (www.em-hazard-therapy.com)."

======

Same article:

"If you microwave your food, "you're zapping away nutrients and risking your health," charges physician Joseph Mercola, who recommends that consumers get rid of their microwave ovens and eat at least a third of their food raw.

"Actually, microwaving retains more nutrients than other forms of cooking, if you don't use a lot of water and don't overcook the food," says food scientist Barry Swanson.

This could well be true. But food usually ends up being overcooked when one uses a microwave oven to do the cooking. I know because I've done it many times myself.

"For some reason, people think heat breaks down vitamins, but most vitamins are really very stable to heat. Nutrients are mostly lost into the water, and there's no reason to add water to vegetables or anything else that already contains a lot of water."

Too much water was apparently the problem in a 2003 study in which European researchers reported that microwaving broccoli in a bowl of water destroyed nearly all of several flavonoids, while steaming had only a mild effect on them. (2) (Flavonoids are plant compounds that may help protect against heart disease and cancer, though the evidence is scanty.)

That research isn't relevant to household microwaving, says Swanson. "Basically, the researchers added far too much water and microwaved the living daylights out of the broccoli."

Even the convential overcooking of raw vegetables can destroy enzymes in the food which is vital to health. Whether or not other vitamins and nutrients are destroyed by microwave cooking is an entirely different matter.

...

Microwave ovens heat the food from the inside out. Microwave ovens use a device called a magnetron tube which causes an electron beam to oscillate at very high frequencies, producing microwave (MW) radiation. Microwaves are beamed from the magnetron into the oven compartment, where they heat the food from the inside out - unlike conventional ovens, which do the reverse. Heating the food from the inside first is what gives rise to cold spots in the food - hence the need to rotate the dish constantly.

A Swiss food scientist, Dr. Hans-Urich Hertel made some worrying discoveries about microwave ovens. Nevertheless, for more than a decade he has been fighting for the right to let the world know what he has found. The point that he has been desperately trying to make public is vital to consumer interests: Any food eaten that has been cooked or defrosted in a microwave oven can cause changes in the blood indicative of a developing pathological process that is also found in cancer. Nevertheless, for all this time, Hertel has been effectively gagged by the manufacturers of micro-wave ovens who have effectively used trade laws and the Swiss court to muzzle him - even to threaten him with personal ruin.

In March 1993, the Canton of Bern Commercial Court, following a complaint filed by the Swiss Association of Dealers for Electro-apparatuses for Households and Industry, prohibited Dr. Hertel from publicly declaring or writing that microwave ovens were dangerous to health. Flouting the order could incur a fine up to SF5000 or even land him up to a year in prison. The Swiss Federal Court in Lausanne confirmed the verdict in 1994. The court based its verdict on the Swiss Law Against Unfair Competition, which prohibits "discriminating, untrue, misleading and unnecessarily harming statements against a supplier or his products" (Journal of Natural Sciences, 1998; 1:2-7) - a law that solely considers the inhibition of trade per se and not malicious intent. That law effectively muzzles the Swiss press as well, as any statements which could be viewed as critical of microwave ovens could easily lead to litigation.

The view of the Swiss on Dr. Hertel's findings are not shared by the rest of Europe. In August 1998, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the gag order issued by the Swiss courts against Dr. Hertel was contrary to the right of freedom of expression. The European Court also ordered Switzerland to pay a compensation of SF40,000. Despite his victory, which is two years old, Dr. Hertel is still waiting for the Swiss courts to reverse their earlier decision and lift a SF8000 fine against him. In the meantime, his explosive discoveries are being corroborated by evidence cropping up here and there all over the world. (Source: Microwave Ovens, A recipe for Cancer.)

Even after I learned all this, do you think I am going to throw out my microwave oven because of it? (Maybe if I were still in TWI and fearful of all those cancerous: "microwave devil spirits!")

Better to focus on the evidence at hand than to ignore and pretend that it just doesn't exist because it might prove detrimental to ones pet theories :)

Thats called living in DENIAL!

Frankly (and truthfully) speaking, we haven't seen a whole lot of evidence presented, but we all certainly have heard a whole lot of other people's stow-ries.

Man oh man, those ***damn space aliens are everywhere committing all those evil deeds!

People change because of what they learn due to hard and factual evidence being presented to them - not other people's stories presented to them.

Anybody can make up and tell you any kind of stow-ry!

Some people call it revisionism, others will call it denial.

(The Holocaust issue being a good example here. Some is based on hard and factual evidence. The rest is based on other people's stow-ries.)

After the hard and factual evidence is presented (and little to none is ever presented at GSC) it's those who refuse to change who are living in denial.

BUT --- it's going to take more than other people's tales (could be their "tails") and stow-ries to change us!

One of the major complaints about microwave cooking is that microwave cooked food "changes" the nutrients in the food, and because of this, many changes take place in the blood of those who also consume microwaved food. It is said that these are not healthy changes, and these changes can cause a rapid deterioration in the human system. A study was conducted to determine the effects on microwaved nutrients and their effect on the blood and physiology of humans by Hans Hertel, a food scientist who worked with major Swiss food companies along with Tom Valentine, who published the results in Search for Health back in the spring of 1992.

Blood samples were taken from participants at defined intervals after they ate a number of milk and vegetable preparations that were cooked in a microwave oven. Significant changes were found in the blood of the volunteers who consumed the food prepared in a microwave. Also in 1991 there was a lawsuit brought up in Oklahoma where a woman, Norma Levitt who was having hip surgery ended up being killed by a blood transfusion after a nurse warmed the blood in a microwave. Blood for transfusions is normally warmed, but not in microwave ovens.

Many people today assume heating up food is all there is to microwaves, and therfore it really doesn't matter what technology or the mode of heating one chooses to do that. But in the case with the warmed blood by the microwave oven, there could be more to heating with microwaves than what we've been led to believe. The majority of people today I believe think that only the "health nuts" are concerned with the value and quality of nutrition, and it is they who have discerned that there is a widespread problem with microwaved food.

Why I left Christianity

Genuine Christianity is like the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

...

hummm, let see what else it says about the innermost thoughts...............

Matthew 5:28

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

...

The very next verse says: (Matthew 5.29)

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

The next thing people will probably be saying is, "Guess that 'plains Wierwille's glass eye!"

Interesting. One can critize them, slander them, defame them in writing (on the Internet and in newsprint) - accuse them of doing all sorts of evil deeds and TWI turns a deaf ear, ignores what you say and won't take any action against you. However you start up your own ministry and call it: The Way (or something suggesting your ministry is The Way) and their lawyers will be on you in a New York Minute!

I guess that tells you where their real priorities lie.

.....

Apparently the diesel fumes were popular:

Diesel fumes are...umm... GAS. It doesn't have to be cyanide gas.

The "diesel gas" story has also been debunked - and with a lot more ease then the Zyklon gas stories I might add. Many Holocaust claims have been abandoned, the diesel gas story being one of many. For example: At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed Jews at Dachau, Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned more than 20 years ago.

No serious historian now supports the once supposedly proven story of "extermination camps" in the territory of the old German Reich. Even famed "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal has acknowledged that "there were no extermination camps on German soil." (Books and Bookmen, London, April 1975, p. 5, and in Stars and Stripes (Europe), Jan. 24, 1993, p. 14.)

The results published in the Leuchter Report are the important thing. Categorically, none of the facilities examined at Auschwitz, Birkenau or Lublin (Majdanek) could have supported, or in fact did support, multiple executions utilizing hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide or any other allegedly or factually lethal gas. Based upon very generous maximum usage rates for all the alleged gas chambers, totalling 1,693 persons per week, and assuming these facilities could support gas executions, it would have required sixty-eight (68) years to execute the alleged number of six million persons.

This must mean the Third Reich was in existence for some seventy-five (75) years. Promoting these facilities as being capable of effecting mass, multiple or even singular executions is both ludicrous and insulting to every individual on this planet. Further, those who do promote this mistruth are negligent and irresponsible for not investigating these facilities earlier and ascertaining the truth before indoctrinating the world with what may have become the greatest propaganda ploy in history.

That's what the history major amateur "engineer" should have said too..

.....

Oh so we're still trying to discredit Fred A. Luechter's degree? I wonder why you haven't bothered to bring up and mention (and likewise discredit) Simon Wiesenthal's (ahem) engineering degree? In his 1948 interrogation, Wiesenthal declared that "between 1939 and 1941" he was a "Soviet chief engineer working in Lvov and Odessa." (Interrogation of S. Wiesenthal, May 27, 1948, pp. 1-2).

Consistent with that, he stated in his 1949 declaration that from December 1939 to April 1940 he worked as an architect in the Black Sea port of Odessa. But according to his autobiography, he spent the period between mid-September 1939 and June 1941 in Soviet-ruled Lvov, where he: worked "as a mechanic in a factory that produced bedsprings." (The Murderers Among Us, p. 27.)

Wiesenthal's reputation as a moral authority is undeserved. The man whom The Washington Post has called the "Holocaust's Avenging Angel" (Quoted in: M. Weber, "'Nazi Hunter' Caught Lying," The Spotlight (Washington, DC), Oct. 26, 1981, p. 9.) has a little known but well-documented record of reckless disregard for truth.

He (Simon Wiesenthal) has lied about his own wartime experiences, misrepresented his postwar "Nazi-hunting" achievements, and has spread vile falsehoods about alleged German atrocities.

But let's not bring up and discuss or discredit the "engineering degree" of this "Holocaust Angel" - Simon Wiesenthal. We would rater discuss (parrott the Holocaust Promotion Lobby) in an attempt to discredit the engineering degree of Fred A. Leuchter whose findings have been verified over and over by numerous engineers with impeccable degrees. Unfortuantely, the same can't be said for Simon Wiesenthal in regard to his "engineering degree".