Biblefan Dave

A point of clarity: it's not the different conclusions that people come up with. If people don't want to believe in administrations, fine. It's a free country.

If people want to believe that every grilled cheese sandwich will eventually produce an image of Christ, I have absolutely no problem with that.

But there is a definite illogic to many of these conclusion. Many of these conclusions stem from personal attacks. First of all, there is never any indication whatsoever that Doctor Wierwille did not do the work necessry to earn a Doctorate. And there are many good schools that lack "creditation", because they simply don't have the political muscle to obtain the accreditation. Anyone could label such an institution as a "noted degree mill", especially if one's agenda is to try and discredit someone's character. Until someone can prove to me that VPW did not actually do the work to earn the doctorate, I consider him "Doctor". There are plenty of well-known "doctors" who matriculated at non-accredited schools.

Slander and character assassination do no one any good. These personal attacks by a few posters are simply their means by trying to overcompensate for feelings of inferiority by trying to tear down someone else to make themselves feel better. As far as coping skills go, absolutely of one of the worst one can pick.

An absolutely ridiculous question was asked: Well if VPW was wrong on this one doctrine, what makes you think he wasn't wrong on some other things? We have something call the Bible. We compare what someone says to the Bible. Is it completely illogical to approach the issue by assuming one erroneous doctrine negates all the rest. That is preposterous.

I guarantee you that if any of us underwent the scrutiny that's being done on VPW's life, any of us could be portrayed as horrible human beings as well. If our words were twisted, distorted, or taken completely out of context, we could be portrayed in just as negative a light.

Many people have to engage in personal attacks because they make no sense on doctrinal issues. They can't deal with things on a doctrine level, so they must engage in personal attacks. Sometimes, that's the only way they know how to react is to lash back in anger. The attitude is that people are mad at TWI, therefore everything about TWI must be wrong. Again, completely, totally, and absolutely illogical. Being mad at a bank teller for not cashing a check does not necessarily mean that the bank is an evil and heartless corporate monster.

When I was in TWI, I never heard anyone whatsoever tell me that VPW was a perfect human. In fact, in PFAL, he said he was not perfect. Yet, people are mad at VPW, a man who has been deceased for more than 19 years. They are mad at him because he was not perfect. Yes, he did teach a few erroneous doctrines. Yes, he did engage in a few sinful activities. Yes, he did not properly credit others when he used their research and writings in his research and writings. Yet, who among us is perfect? Are people mad because he turned out not to be perfect? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Who among us is without sin? Do we not want forgiveness for the times when we have gone astray? Then, why in the world would we ever allow this anger to rule our worlds to the extent that 19 years after the man died, we still feel anger and bitterness.

If you ever talked to anyone involved in 12 step programs, the people who are successful in those programs have an "attitude of gratitude". There are many people who would have never had an appreciation for God, our lord and savior Jesus Christ, and God's Word if it were not for TWI. Half-full or half-empty, your choice. Someone asked the question: Was sitting in the PFAL on my 19th birthday a good thing? Again, an absolutely ridiculous question. Of course, anything that propels us on a course toward knowing God and his son, Jesus Christ would be a good thing.

But, then, some people stil have to engage in these personal attacks to make themselves feel better. Well, in just about any group, one can find good people and one can find not so good people. A person's character shows in whether they focus on doctrinal issues or engage in personal attacks and character assassination.

I don't think the all with or without distinction was exactly a doctrinal change. Most people generally understood what VPW meant, even with the verbage was a little confusing. It was more of a clarification or cleaning up of language syntax.

I'd nominate Rodney King for President. Can't we, can't we just all get along.

I'll vote for anyone who agrees to never ever play "Beautiful Ohio".

For the most part, VPW used sound logic and sound principles in understanding the Bible. When he covered the others crucified, he used all relevant scriptures.

When he dealt with believing, not so good. If believing = receiving, then he should have dealt with every situation in which someone received something. Most of the teaching regarding believing = receiving centered around the cursing of the fig tree, which in the Advanced Class was taught as the manifestation of believing.

Now, if God tells a person to believe something, and the person believes it, it will come to pass. The cursing of the fig tree was such a situation. But, God must initiate the action but first telling the person.

Other parts of the teaching on believing = receiving was experiential (the woman who wanted red drapes and the little boy who got hit by the car) or the opinion that people die when they stopped believing.

I think that it is the other way around. People stop believing when they die. Of course, they're dead, they can't believe.

Did everyone in the Bible who received something from God believing for it? I don't think so. From out of nowhere, Jesus approaches the man with the withered hand and tells him to stretch out his hand. Where does it indicate that he was "believing for it to happen". God has the power to heal. Jesus spoke that healing into believing with the spoken Word. There is no indication of prior believing, nor having needs and wants parallel, nor knowing beforehand what was available. I would imagine the whole healing incident occurred within just a few minutes time.

Jesus ministered deliverance to those who were possessed. They could not believe. They were possessed.

Jesus ministered healing to Lazarus by raising him from the dead (dead, thus unable to believe).

The Gospels also say that people do not have things because they ask amiss, for the wrong motive or reason. If believing = receiving, then there would have been around 50,000 millionaires in TWI. Of all those believing to be rich, I would guess may 5 at most could claim millionaire status, if that many. 1/10,000th would not indicate that the law holds to be true.

God is not so cruel as to demand that we could only have something if we were absolutely, 100% convinced of something.

Dan,

I am not claiming people are acting out of bitterness or hatred just because they disagree. I happen to live in a city where there is a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center. AA and NA are very big here. I have become friends with a number of people involved in the 12-step programs. I have gone to AA & NA meetings to see what it's all about. I find the people in these groups very spiritual, very kind, very understand, yet they disagree with me on many subjects. First of all, my "Way mentality" still tells me that if I limit myself to 2 drinks at a time, I will never have to humbly tell these friends that I am one of them. Second, my personal belief is that any "higher power" other than the one true God is idolatry.

But, if we examine this situation logically, the title for this forum is "Wierwille's Wacky Dispensationalism". Plenty of Bible researchers and teachers before VPW believed in dispensations or administrations. People before Bullinger believed in them. Yet, the creator of this forum characterized VPW and though this was clearly VPW's idea. There is certainly a Biblical basis for dispensations or administrations. Adam and Eve before the original sin, Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden. Before the law was given, after the law was given. Under law, then under grace. So, attributing this doctrine to Wierwille was wrong because the OT and NT authors presented the idea. Plenty of theologicians have taught the idea. Bullinger taught the idea. So did VPW.

Why did the creator of this forum determine that it was "wacky". The creator of this forum and so others who have similarly "wacky" anti-Way mentalities reacted to the problems within TWI by deciding that everything about TWI was bad. Their decision that administrations were wrong was not based upon scriptural evidence but by how they reacted to the downfall of TWI.

In life, there are plenty of things that can anger us. I don't like standing in lines. But if I believed that anyone who made me stand in line was of the devil, my thinking would be pretty screwed up. I would be reacting to situations and personally blaming individuals who were doing the best they could do at the time.

I have heard people accuse VPW of being in it for the money. I saw some of VPW's tax returns. I think the most he made, at the time I saw the returns, was around $43,000. If I remember correctly, his salary was actually around $60,000 annually. He usually did not even collect his entire salary. And that's suppose to mean he was only in it for the money. That is people illogically and immorally attributing motives to someone to feel superior to that person or group.

I have been around plenty of people who had different viewpoints or conclusions. I moved to Maryland, my WOW year, from Oklahoma. Everyone I knew in Oklahoma, believer-wise, was a Cowboys fan. I moved to Maryland and, to my surprise, believers in Maryland actually had the audacity to root for those dreaded Redskins. They came to a different conclusion about which NFL team to root for.

It's pretty easy to spot the venom gushing out of the fangs of some of these posters. VPW did this. VPW did that. VPW was the cause of this. VPW was the cause of that. For most people who left TWI, the problems they encountered were related to their attitudes about leaving and how long they maintained those attitudes.

I mean, I was upset. Yes, at one point, I felt angry and betrayed. I was mad at Craig. Then, I was mad at John Lynn for stirring up everything. Then I was mad at Craig for having to have John stir up everything. But, I began to view the problems that happened within TWI the same as when problems happened on the WOW field. I viewed the situation as another bump in the road, and that God would see me through this situation.

I left TWI but I did not leave truth behind. I did not let anger cloud my heart to the truth. I took Dale Sides' classes. I went to a charismatic church. I went to CES fellowships. I went to fellowships that became a part of CFFM. I ran the gamut of different options. When another ex-Wayer and I went to the charismatic church, we would offer positive things to one another about the church. I liked their care groups (home meetings). I liked their worship time when the band was playing and everyone was waving their hands in the air. I felt TWI was way too rigid in their appreciation of our savior, Jesus Christ. I took the class offered by the church. In 1990, I was very open to new things. The harder I tried to find flaws in the doctrines of Jesus Christ is not God and Are the Dead Alive Now, the harder it was to dismiss those doctrines. Then when the church found out about our Way involvment, they were endlessly trying to convince us that we had to believe in the "deity of Jesus Christ". Time to see ya later.

Later, I went to a Baptist Church for about 1 year. I listened to whatever was taught by the Baptist minister, Rev. Terry Crowley. I would compare it to what I read in the Bible. Some was right and some was wrong. But I didn't go creating a forum so that I could vent my rage against the man just because he wasn't perfect. I just got bored with the Baptist Church. I told you already that part of my reaction to the worship time at the charismatic church was a belief that TWI was too rigid in the way they worshipped God. So, one could see how I would think the Baptist Church boring.

I tried 3 different churches. I tried the gamut of ex-Way groups. I do feel a closeness both to CES and to CFFM. I know there are a few differences doctrinally, but I don't think there is that much difference spiritually. I believe people in both groups have their heads on straight, love God, and endeavor, to the best of their abilities, to serve God.

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Originally posted by def59:

Originally posted by Biblefan Dave:

I think some of these posters here are so wrapped up in their hatred of the TWI, it's impossible for them to understand truth.

_Does this mean TWI is Truth?_

Where is the heck do you come up with that stretch? Did I say TWI is truth? No, I did not. TWI leaders and others in TWI did teach a lot of truth. There were also some erroneous doctrines taught. But if your agenda is anti-Way, anti-Wierwille, or anti-Martindale, you will not be able to see what TWI people taught that was true. Where did you get that crazy idea that TWI equals truth. TWI is a legal entity. TWI does not in and of itself, but only but its members do. Def, you can go to some of the craziest leaps in logic known to mankind.

Hatred, bitterness, resentments, and animosity do no one any good. They cloud your judgment.

_So how's yours?_ I am thankful for my time in TWI. I am thankful for my time out of TWI. I harbor no animosity whatsoever toward VPW, LCM, R(whatever her middle initial is)R, Harve Platig, Yves (whatever he name is, I never knew him anyway) or anyone else who was in TWI leadership. Your words reek of hatred. But, that's your problem.

When I left TWI, the Word did not leave me. I for one am extremely thankful for the 12 years I spent in TWI. When I was 18 years, I told God that things had to get better or I would kill myself on my 19th birthday. On my 19th birthday, I was sitting in the 2nd week of the PFAL.

_And this was a good thing?_ Duh, of course, it was a good thing. There were many people who got involved in TWI that were delivered from drug addictions. Many people overcome child abuse, childhood abandonment, diseases, bad and/or abusive relationships, mental problems, etc. Do you think God delivered people from affllictions is a bad thing?

I am very thankful for the Word that was taught me by Dr. Wierwille and other TWI leaders.

_What word and which leaders?_ What word? What planet are you from? The Word of God. From your words, it certainly sounds like the Word of God is a very foreign concept to you. Leaders such as LCM (yeah, even him), Ralph Dubofsky, John and Pat Lynn, Bob Carden, Michael Rood, Phil and Teri Dean, Doug Lambert, John Guthrie, Duke Clarke, Dean and Wanda Rhoades, Michael Cahill, Susan Palange, Paul Kern, Wayne and Cindy Schneider, Sue Washington, Carol Gellner, Randy Anderson, Earl Burton, Walter Cummins, and many others. Maybe you should try finding some decent leadership, but whoever you are following (yourself!!!) isn't doing a very good job of leading you.

When I left, I re-examined many of the things I was taught. Did you get that, I re-examined. Some of you are so anti-Way you may never understand or believe truth again. I re-examined doctrines, whereas so of you go out of your way, to the farthest extremes possible, to try and find fault with everything taught in TWI.

_Could it be that others have re-examined TWI doctrine and came up with a different conclusion? Whose judgement is clouded?_ Re-examining is taking an honest and objective approach. You are obviously on anti-Way agenda, therefore your conclusions are obviously swayed to fit your hostile agenda.

Some of you clearly will never understand administrations but you are determined to prove it wrong, even though it is right.

_This is your opinion. VPW used a new word to describe dispensationalist theology._ That is truth, like it or not. Just because you choose not to belief truth in no way affects what truth is. Your unbelief affects you. Call it a car, a jalopy, auto, automobile, or sedan, it's still a car. Administration or dispensation, same difference. Again, many people before TWI taught about dispensations or adminstrations. Your focus on VPW teaching it clearly shows your anti-VPW mentality, which affects your judgment.

There is no hope for you knowing truth when your whole agenda is trying to put down Dr. Wierwille, when he isn't alive to defend himself.

_We have his words, by what other means do we have to judge him?_ If you judge only by words, that is one thing. If you try to twist or distort his words or take them out of context, you are making an error in judgment. And no one can presume the motives of another, unless that other person tells one of those motives. To assume motives is to lead to fallacious and undeserved judgment.

Even the ridiculous name for this forum shows immediately how some people are approaching this subject. And in case you didn't know it, there were many people before VPW who taught about administrations, including Bullinger. So, those of you propounding this anti-Way, anti-Wierwille have chosen probably the most idiotic, egotistical, self-centered, non-rewarding agenda possible.

_Again your mind appears made up and still you offer no supporting documentation, show who is egotistical and self-centered here anyway? _ When someone is so set to disprove something, that person lauds their own self as the savior that everyone else is supposed to follow. Your anti-Way, anti-Wierwille, anti-LCM, anti-reality mentality serves no valid function other than to feed your own ego.

As far as Way materials. I actually don't own any Way literature or other materials. As far as Way doctrines are concerned. Jesus Christ is not God was what TWI taught. And they were absolutely 100% right about. The stupid trinity doctrine is a paganistic pile of crap, with no biblical basis whatsoever.

_Some on GSC agree with you, others (like myself) do not. But what are you basing your conclusions on, TWI? VPW? Have you gone to trinitarian sources for understanding? Like Bullinger perhaps? I went to Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, MD for 2 years. I even took their class (do I hear gasping now). I went to their Sunday church services. I went to their care groups (groups that met in people's home). Awhile after my involvement in that church, I even went to a Baptist Church for awhile. I have gone to plenty of outside sources. The truth (something you obviously don't seem to comprehend) of the matter is that of all of the major mainstream Christian doctrines, the Trinity is least valid, least scriptural, least provable of all of them. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. God as a "person", never mentioned. Jesus as "God the Son", never mentioned. "Co-equal" and "co-eterenal", never mentioned. Orthodox Jews still believe pretty much what Jews have always believed, and Jews don't believe in any triune godhead. One of the most commonly used verses by Trinitarians to prove that Jesus is God is Jn 10:10, I and my Father are one. Three Gods in one, that verse should have read I and my Father are two-thirds. Or the poor Holy Spirit (who is supposed to be coequal) is yelling at Jesus because he forget all about him. The Trinity is bunk, period. Never can be proven.

As far as Way doctrine, I do not believe believing = receiving, I believe believing influences receiving. And God knows my needs so I don't have to have my needs and wants parallel. God can give me things before I know they are available.

The Cry of Triumph was not a cry of triumph but taken from Psalms 22 where the psalmist, David, was examining the course of events that he had experienced. There was a feeling of being forsaken by David. Later, David, in Psalm 23, tells of how great things had become. Jesus, on the cross, reminded people that things may seems bad now, but they will get better later on.

_So if VPW was wrong on believing and this point, how can you be so sure he was right on other things? _ Again, we can see blatant evidence of your lapses in logic. One compares what a Bible teacher says to what's in the Bible. The Bible clearly shows Jesus Christ is not God. Dr. Wierwille neglected verses in the Bible regarding receiving things from God, such as the verses that says that we have not because we ask amiss (for wrong motives or purposes). In that case, it is not whether there is doubt present, but what the motives of the heart are. If we go to the Word, not traditions, but to the Word, we can logically and rational examine which things Wierwille taught were true, and which weren't. By the way, why do you attribute everything to VPW? Bullinger taught about the straight poles versus crosses. Bullinger taught about the others crucified. Stiles taught about the giver and the gift. Why are you mad as hell toward Bullinger? Why are you mad as hell toward Stiles? I'll tell you why? Because you weren't personally involved or attached to those men. That personal involvement and the perceived betrayal has sparked that bitterness that resonates within your life. If you were objectively concerned about what doctrines you think were wrong, then logically you should direct your anger at Bullinger who taught about administrations or dispensations before VPW.

As for the Lay of Abundance and Power, I never took the class. Adultery is wrong, always has been wrong, and always will be wrong. Adultery is sin, period, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

_Well, duh!_

As for the "absent Christ", my Christ has never been absent from my life.

Yes, I believe in devil spirits. I believe spirits affect homosexuals. I believe spirits affect adulterers. I believe that LCM would have been too influenced y his own spirits to spot the spirits affecting anyone else. We are supposed to hate the sin, not the sinner. LCM acted with hatred toward gays, therefore that hatred resonated toward anyone he merely suspected was gay.

10% tithing applied to the law administration, not the church. Giving of abundance applies to the church.

_Chapter and verse please! Have you ever heard of the book of Malachi, it's in the OT. Read Malachi, then read II Corinthians chapters 8 and 9.

VPW did a great job when he showed 4 crucified with Christ.

_But VPW stole this from Bullinger!_ There again, you are showing your anti-Way, anti-VPW mentality. Bullinger did not teach the PFAL classes that we took. I said VPW "showed" us that. VPW laid out all of the relevant scriptures to positively show that there were 2 different categories of wrongdoers, and that the timing and sequence of events would have required two on either side for it to make sense. Your hatred and anger also shows when you used the word "stole". Reciting a truth from God's Word is not stealing. Your anti-TWI is obviously clouding your judgment. Yes, he failed to proper credit Bullinger.

I absolutely believe that 4 others were crucified with him. What were they crucified on, stakes or crosses? I don't know. They used both items during that time period. The Bible uses the word "cross". A cross would have to be sawed or shaped would be take more preparation but make it lighter than a round pole or stake. A round pole is less work but harder to carry. If one merely intends to kill someone, less preparation would seem to be more likely. If one wants to make a spectacle of it, then a cross would be more likely. In otherwords, I don't know, and I really don't think it makes any difference if I do know.

_Go check a history book, the cross was a common symbol and execution tool._ If you had actually read what I said, I said that both straight poles and crosses were used. The Romans used both. That doesn't exclude the straight pole from being used at Jesus' crucification. I don't think anyone can honestly declare it either way, pole or cross. The instrument of death isn't the important issue, what Jesus accomplished through his crucificion and resurrection was. As far as I'm concerned, it really doesn't make one bit of difference, cross or pole.

What day was Jesus crucified on? I don't know. I have seen credible arguments made for both Wednesday and Friday. I actually think the argument for Thursday made more sense than Wednesday or Friday. So, I don't know what day he was crucified, and knowing the particular day won't affect or influence my life whatsoever.

That's enough for now.

_Thanks, we can hardly wait._

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Some people can be somewhat humorous with sarcasm, unfortunately, you are one of them. Don't give up your day job.

More on Way doctrine:

If speaking in tongues is speaking to God, wouldn't the interpretation be addressed to God also, not God speaking to man. That would be prophecy, thus what people that was interpretation was not but instead it was prophecy.

Too much focus on physical details leads to too little focus on spiritual matters.

The more abundant life is the new birth, not material possessions or wealth.

There is a difference between wealth and prosperity. III Jn 3 is God's desire for people, not necessarily a promise. God wants us to be prosperous and in good health, as our soul prospers. Hey, if we focus too much on hatred, our soul will not prosper.

Do you know what this topic was going to be called beforehand?

I think some of these posters here are so wrapped up in their hatred of the TWI, it's impossible for them to understand truth.

Hatred, bitterness, resentments, and animosity do no one any good. They cloud your judgment.

When I left TWI, the Word did not leave me. I for one am extremely thankful for the 12 years I spent in TWI. When I was 18 years, I told God that things had to get better or I would kill myself on my 19th birthday. On my 19th birthday, I was sitting in the 2nd week of the PFAL.

I am very thankful for the Word that was taught me by Dr. Wierwille and other TWI leaders.

When I left, I re-examined many of the things I was taught. Did you get that, I re-examined. Some of you are so anti-Way you may never understand or believe truth again. I re-examined doctrines, whereas so of you go out of your way, to the farthest extremes possible, to try and find fault with everything taught in TWI.

Some of you clearly will never understand administrations but you are determined to prove it wrong, even though it is right. There is no hope for you knowing truth when your whole agenda is trying to put down Dr. Wierwille, when he isn't alive to defend himself. Even the ridiculous name for this forum shows immediately how some people are approaching this subject. And in case you didn't know it, there were many people before VPW who taught about administrations, including Bullinger. So, those of you propounding this anti-Way, anti-Wierwille have chosen probably the most idiotic, egotistical, self-centered, non-rewarding agenda possible.

As far as Way materials. I actually don't own any Way literature or other materials. As far as Way doctrines are concerned. Jesus Christ is not God was what TWI taught. And they were absolutely 100% right about. The stupid trinity doctrine is a paganistic pile of crap, with no biblical basis whatsoever.

As far as Way doctrine, I do not believe believing = receiving, I believe believing influences receiving. And God knows my needs so I don't have to have my needs and wants parallel. God can give me things before I know they are available.

The Cry of Triumph was not a cry of triumph but taken from Psalms 22 where the psalmist, David, was examining the course of events that he had experienced. There was a feeling of being forsaken by David. Later, David, in Psalm 23, tells of how great things had become. Jesus, on the cross, reminded people that things may seems bad now, but they will get better later on.

As for the Lay of Abundance and Power, I never took the class. Adultery is wrong, always has been wrong, and always will be wrong. Adultery is sin, period, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

As the the "absent Christ", my Christ has never been absent from my life.

Yes, I believe in devil spirits. I believe spirits affect homosexuals. I believe spirits affect adulterers. I believe that LCM would have been too influenced y his own spirits to spot the spirits affecting anyone else. We are supposed to hate the sin, not the sinner. LCM acted with hatred toward gays, therefore that hatred resonated toward anyone he merely suspected was gay.

10% tithing applied to the law administration, not the church. Giving of abundance applies to the church.

VPW did a great job when he showed 4 crucified with Christ. I absolutely believe that 4 others were crucified with him. What were they crucified on, stakes or crosses? I don't know. They used both items during that time period. The Bible uses the word "cross". A cross would have to be sawed or shaped would be take more preparation but make it lighter than a round pole or stake. A round pole is less work but harder to carry. If one merely intends to kill someone, less preparation would seem to be more likely. If one wants to make a spectacle of it, then a cross would be more likely. In otherwords, I don't know, and I really don't think it makes any difference if I do know.

What day was Jesus crucified on? I don't know. I have seen credible arguments made for both Wednesday and Friday. I actually think the argument for Thursday made more sense than Wednesday or Friday. So, I don't know what day he was crucified, and knowing the particular day won't affect or influence my life whatsoever.

That's enough for now.

Hey Ron,

Yeah, I am still around. Been in MD ever since leaving CO. But, I plan to move back to my home state of OK next year around Apri or May.

Hope everything is going well with you.

On the other hand, believing positively does influence (notice I said influence, not guarantee automatically) positive things to happen. If one feels confident when going to a job interview, and feels he/she is qualified for that job, the person is far more likely to get the job than if one has a negative attitude about getting the job.

A positive atttitude toward a waiter or waitress will normally get you better service than sniping and complaining to the server.

Doctors, scientists, and psychiatrists firmly believe that stress, worry, and anxiety can affect a person's physical health negatively, as well as one's mental health.

So, what we believe can affect or influence or setup circumstances in either a positive or negative way.

Actually, we could nominate anyone who would refuse to ever play "Beautiful Ohio" again, especially not at 7:00 am.

Here's another interesting combination:

Dan Rather - President

Jayson Blair - Vice President

Kenneth Lay - Secretary/Treasurer.

Dan Rather can keep us updated on news about TWI, Jayson can come up with the actual stories, and Kenneth Lay can manage the money.

Dale Sides was an ordained clergy in TWI. He was a former limb coordinator, but I forget exactly where he was, I think, mayble Wyoming.

I left and started his own group called Liberating Ministries for Christ. He believes that Jesus is God, but not part of any triune godhead. I took one of his classes a long time ago when his group and CES were temporarily collaborating. He has a class called Exercising Spiritual Authority which was a pretty decent class. But he has come up with some really "out there" ideas about the Bible. I think his website is www.lmci.org.

BTW, CES decided that their doctrines were too far apart and parted company a number of years ago.

I wouldn't really consider it a revision in doctrine, but there were some clarifications.

I heard the all without distinction was changed to all with distinction versus all without exception.

I am sure there were other clarifications, but that's the only one I can recall at the time.

There were times in the Advanced Class where VPW or others would teach a few verses from the Bible, then indicate that they were working on a topic, and to hold that subject in abeyance until further research was done on the subject.

In otherwords, they would bring up a potential future topic for teaching that was still being researched.

But, no, honesty, I don't recall any times where the top leaders of TWI actually said they were wrong. John Lynn and the others did show why some of the doctrines were wrong, but top leadership never had the honesty and integrity to correct those errors.

My sisters live in Bartlesville, OK where Craig is from. My mother is also in hospice care there. I have been to Bartlesville the past 2 years for Xmas, since my mother was no longer living in a home of her own. I plan to be there this Xmas as well. Of course, I don't plan on looking up any of the Martindales while I'm there.

With Oklahoma Univ. again finishing in the top 4 NCAA teams in the country, and Oklahoma State also finishing in the top 25 team, Oklahoma is clearly a hotbed of football.

Oklahoma has some of the most avid high school football fans in the country.

Last year, OU, OSU, and Tulsa all played in bowl games with OU playing for the national championship. OU is again playing for the national championship this year.

OSU played themselves into the Final Four this year. Eddie Sutton is a longtime respected college basketball coach having coached at Arkansas and Kentucky.

OSU is one of the top collegiate wrestling teams year after year.

Jenks in one of the top 10 high school teams in the country this year.

I have already no problems with the Red Sox winning a World Series every 86 years.

I thought it was basketball, not basketbrawl.

Silver and Gold from the Rudolph cartoon.

All of the music from the Charlie Brown Christmas special.

The Chipmunks Christmas song.

All of the songs from How the Grinch Stole Christmas.

Does anyone know Karin Workman from Peoria? She was one of the Minnesota Harvesters in '76-'77.

A friend of mine is actually trying to get a Minnesota Harvester reunion together.

I never heard VPW say that the OT was to be completely ignored. Some of the very first verses used in PFAL were from the OT.

There are many parts of the OT that don't apply specifically to us in the administration of grace. Jesus fulfilled the law, so we don't have to obey the law. Yet, there are still other sections of scripture that convey the same level of obedience as the OT laws. We are still not supposed to murder. We are still not supposed to steal. We are still not supposed to take advantage of a neighbor's spouse. But we don't refrain from killing, stealing, and covet's another's spouse because we are under the law. We do it because it is specified in NT scriptures as well.

We in the grace administration are not ordered to avoid eating any fruit from any trees in the garden of Eden. Eden is no longer available. So, where one calls it an administration, dispensation, era, eon, epoch, or anything else, that does not apply to us.

God dealt differently with Adam and Eve after they were expelled from Eden than before. So, administration, or dispensation, or whatever you want to call it. The rules or conditions or circumstances did drastically and dramatically change.

In our modern English refer to the length of time that a particular president is in office as an administration. We don't refer to the Lincoln Dispensation or the Coolidge Dispensation. It was the Truman or Eisenhower Administration.

Now, the Gospels. Tricky territory there. Some things apply to the church, some things don't. Some things we can learn from the Gospels, other things applied strictly to that particular time period and those particular people. There is no Christ Administration because they were still under the law. Yet, Jesus fulfilled the law while he was present on earth.

So when exactly did the church administration begin and the law administration end? Was it on the Day of Pentecost? Was it after Jesus arose? Was it the moment he died?

If the new birth is tantamount to the grace administration, then it would have begun at Pentecost.

CES would be agreeable under the right circumstances. No authoritarian structure. No adultery. No law of believing nonsense.

CES temporarily joined forces with Dale Sides group. CES temporarily joined forces with a church in Florida, I believe.

CES has shown themselves to open to a number of different groups. Obviously, CES would never agree with simply merge with TWI with TWI as it is currently.

They picked a woman so they wouldn't have to deal with any more sexual coerciion or sexual harassment lawsuits. I don't think Donna Martindale would sue her.