Biblefan Dave

What most people did was basicaly throw the baby out with the bath water. TWI did not brainwash people. TWI did not attempt to indoctrinate people to any greater degree than any denomination. TWI was not out for money. And I saw copies of VPW's tax returns. If there was rampant sex going on, I must have certainly been in the wrong section of tents at the ROA or maybe I had to be in an RV to be considered upper crust enough. TWI did not make wild promises about the world ending at predicted times. During the time I was involved with TWI, when I did encounter people who were staunchly devoted to their denomination or church or group, they insisted that the only reason TWI was considered a "cult" was because TWI taught that Jesus was not God. 4 crucified with Christ didn't matter to them. Which day Christ was crucified didn't matter to them. The Trinity was the all-important "cornerstone" of Christianity. Again, a careful examination of scriptures will never substantiate Jesus being God, but their only objection about TWI was the denial of Trinity. I also deny that salt water flows in the Colorado River. I also deny that sheep thrive around coal mines, even though the neighboring state of West Virginia seems to have both. TWI was right in many things they did teach. Some of the true things they taught caused me to be outraged that the denominational churches had deceived me. TWI did teach logical, reasonable, and good principles for ascertain truths from the Bible. In fact, they did such a good job of teaching those principles that some of the doctrines started to be called into question. Giving is a principle in the Bible. I don't see where tithing is a term that applies to our day and time. You can call it tithing, giving, abundant sharing, offering, or anything else you prefer. There is no percentage given to those in our day and time, so when LCM mandated 15% as a minimum, he was contrary to God's Word. He was informed about that and refused to changed. John Schoenheit showed where VPW and LCM were engaging in sinful sexual practices. Do sinful sexual practices connote an evil cult leader? If so, Jimmy Swaggart would be an evil cult leader. Honestly, I could care less about how many were crucified with Christ, my focus is on the 1 in the middle. Which day, Wednesday or Friday, that he died, doesn't make one bit of difference to me other than that he did die as the perfect sacrifice for my sins. I believe there was a verse in the Bible that told us not to get caught up in days or seasons, something to that affect. The principles to understanding the Bible were and still are very sound principles. We can look back at TWI doctrines and see whether they were right or wrong. We can also look at Baptist and Catholic and Presbyterian doctrines to see whether they were right or wrong. Does the Bible actually mention what the original sin was other than disobedience to God. Was it eating an apple as tradition holds? I don't know. The Bible doesn't tell me. Was it some sort of illicit sexual practice? I don't know because the Bible doesn't say so. I am perfectly fine not knowing something. Do I need to spend hours and hours researching secular writings that might imply some sort of forbidden sex act? No. It is better to understand some than attempt to know everything. Were there so many administrations or dispensations as Bullinger and VPW stated? All I know is that things changed after Adam disobeyed God. Things changed after God made the covenant between He and Abraham. Things changed after God gave Moses the tables with the Laws of God upon them. Things changed after the Day of Pentecost. Does it matter if I call it the Patriarchal Administration? No, because the Bible gives so clear and concrete title to that period of time. The title isn't important. What's important is God's relation to man and we can see that in the men (I don't referring to any singular "man of God") of God that lived during that time. I was not brainwashed or indoctrinated. In fact, as soon as John Lynn put out that 2/27/87 letter combined with the meeting where Howard Allen came to fire him, I knew it was time to leave. Most of the TWI members (and yes, I called people involved in TWI members because they chose of their own free will to align themselves as I did prior to that period in early 1987) left. They actually started leaving even before them. People started leaving right after the Passing of the Patriarch was disclosed. Many more left in those next couple of years. By the end of 1989, it had to have a thought in those who remained in TWI that something must be up. It seemed like those who remained should have done some more investigation. The mass exodus had to have put doubt in people's minds. Maybe VPW and LCM did talk far more about evil spirits than they actually saw. When I was there at the meeting where John Lynn was fired, it was like the Devil had flipped the switch. I saw Corps and other members getting up and yelling the most bizarre accusations against John Lynn. It was like the evil spirits were swarming the room, and people I had previously trusted went completely bonkers. That was plenty of motivation to search for the exits. I am sure many people were not privy to show overt displays. But, the Word spread about the problems in TWI. I was calling up people I knew and telling them about problems in TWI. Now, I have never been privy to any leadership meetings in any other church or denomination, so I can only speak to what I saw in that meeting. But the term "cult" never crossed my mind. My focus went to the most logical and rational means to continue to follow God, to continue to seek truth, yet to be around people who recognized the wrongful doctrines that TWI was teaching at that time and to make sure that the sinful practices TWI leaders were engaging did not carry forth into whatever direction I took. Again, there were never thoughts about TWI being a cult, because I knew the denominations did not even make attempts to seek truth but instead relied upon traditions. Fortunately, John Lynn remained in the area for awhile and was very forthcoming about any of the wrongful practices he had firsthand evidence to. These weren't the exaggerated horror stories people hear on GSC like to expound, but actual firsthand situations. The RC Church is not immune to bizarre sexual practices. There is no mandate in the Bible for a leader in the church to be celibate, but the RC imposes this wrongful doctrine upon its leaders. So, what happens? You have several priests accused of sexual abuse of minors, mostly of a homosexual nature. You want to talk about horror stories!!! Yet, we don't accuse RC of being a cult, because numbers and money brings about power and power determines who is accepted into the mainstream and the mainstream dictates who and what is a cult. If you reacted to what you perceived were the horror stories from TWI, why don't you react with the same disgust toward RC. What about twisted doctrines? The RC Church has a doctrine that male masturbation is equivalent to mass murder. Where is that substantiated in the Bible? Nowhere. Where do people in the RC Church focus on for church doctrine? Whatever the pope says goes. Focusing on a man of God like that, isn't that what made TWI bad. People did have reverence for VPW. People have even more revence for the pope. How many times did VPW get the red carpet treatment? Whatever charge you levy against TWI, a case can be made against the major and many or the minor denominations. Jimmy Swaggart got into trouble. Jim Bakker got into trouble. Jim Bakker was raking in millions of dollars, and I guess half of that was needed for Tammy Faye's makeup. Okay, bad joke, and not in good taste. I searched many groups and churches before I got involved with TWI. The Jesus Freaks really freaked me out. Way too weird. The Baptists were too judgmental wasting their time protesting outside of the theater where The Last Tango in Paris was showing. The RC's, you go out and do whatever you want, go to confession, then go out and do it all over again. That didn't seem right at all. Yet, all of these Catholics in the dormitory were the party animals getting drunk every weekend and nailing the babes. The Mormons. Wait a minute. I went to bible study at church and when I memorized the books of the Bible, the Book of Mornon wasn't one of them. Jehovah's Witnesses, too stiff in the way they acted. I had gone through the gamut. I was all set to check out Transcendental Meditation when I saw a flyer advertising a meeting that the College WOW's were having on campus. That's where I met people that could answer my questions about God. They let me read the PFAL book before I took the class. That's where the hunger for truth was stoked. That''s where I learned how to understand the Bible. That's where I also learned to tell when people weren't teaching truth, and that's why I later left. So, if you choose for your life to decide TWI was a cult and that you needed years and years to recover from "involvement in a cult", that is your choice. But, TWI stoked that fire within me to seek truth, as it did for many individuals. Thus, it is wrongful to haphazardly fling about this labeling of what is a cult and what isn't because if people suffer from this perception of having been brainwashed or controlled or having their money stolen from them, their suffering is not due to facts but due to misperception. If you allow an ounce of forgiveness toward those that caused you pain, take the good things from TWI, and forget the bad things about TWI, and focus on a true relationship with God and his son, Jesus Christ, all of this "recovery" ceases to be necessary. No group is perfect. There are bad Republicans and good Republicans. There are good Democrats and bad Democrats. If you like the Cleveland Browns but dislike the Pittsburgh Steelers, that doesn't mean that every single player for the Steelers is a despicable human being. You can find good people in Toastmasters and bad people in Toastmasters. If you ever have the chance to attend an AA meeting, you ought to. People discuss the horrors in their lives because of alcohol, how it destroyed jobs and families. Than these individuals came to AA and now address every day sober as a wonderful day. And you can see it in their eyes and the way they carry themselves. They become happy, well-adjusted individuals. Not all of them, but some of them. Jail and divorce and poverty can certainly be factors for hatred, bitterness, and resentment. Many of these people faced far worse times than having someone demand they go door-to-door witnessing. God has a way where there is no way. I don't believe is this whole believing equals receiving business, but a positive focus in life certainly gets one farther than a negative focus. When interviewing for jobs, one of the cardinals sins in the interview process is to tell the prospect employer how bad things were at the previous employer. And it certainly helps to go into a job interview with a positive attitude than to start off the interview telling the interviewer that you know he or she is not going to give you the job anyway. I am not on this Norman Vincent Peale campaign, but just saying that love, forgiveness, and a positive focus goes a long way toward establishing a good foundation for the future. David

Anyone who used their brains when they were in TWI knows that a cult is simply a group that the mainstream deems is not part of the mainstream. Yet, if we tells ourselves that all "cults" are bad and that we were part of a "cult", then we associate our involvement with TWI as being all bad. Cults are all brainwashers therefore we were brainwashed. Cults are all manipulating, therefore we were manipulated. Cults are only out for money therefore TWI was only out for money. You've summed up your problem right there. If you convince yourself that you were involved in this evil cult, then you therefore will take all of these steps to unbrainwash yourself, even though you were never brainwashed by TWI. You complicate your life by attribute actions and attitude that simply were not there, at least not there until LCM took over. All cults are only after your money. If LCM was the evil monster people say he was, why wasn't he out to get rich. By driving people away from TWI, he showed he had little managerial ability but in no way did he show he way out to get rich. In having to sell Emporia and Rome City just to pay bills, he clearly showed he wasn't out for money, otherwise he would have looked for ways to expand membership, not drive people away. Again, there was never any brainwashing going on in TWI. There were attempts to dictate lifestyle, yes, I certainly agree. VPW started out in a very honest and sincere manner of telling people how to live according to the Bible. With the rapid growth of TWI, and with the rapid growth in the number of Way Corps, then we had a lot more people thinking their role was to go around reproving others. Bad, yes, cultic, no. Many churches do the same thing. Brainwashing is a completely different matter. If you keep telling yourself that you were brainwashed, yeah, you will continue to have difficulties. You will lash out in hatred and bitterness and levy false accusations against people from TWI. No one in TWI was perfect. The only perfect man involved with TWI was Jesus Christ. Did leaders from TWI making false accusations against TWI members? Yes, they most certainly did. So, does that make it right for people here on GSC to do it against VPW or LCM or anyone in TWI? But, it's a free country and people, within limits, can say whatever they want to say, right or wrong.

Being considered a cult just means a group is not considered mainstream by the mainstream. Yet, being mainstream is in no way meaning something is good. The Roman Catholic Church was certainly mainstream, yet they engaged in the practice of selling indulgences. The RC Church exterminated (or you can say murdered) people who did not convert to Catholicism. That in no way made the RC Church right, even though they were mainstream. They kept themselves mainstream by eliminating many who did not adopt mainstream ideas. Thus, the cult label is completely irrelevant. Cult does not mean good or bad because it is an inflammatory, judgmental label that has no basis in truth. When I was first introduced to TWI, I was enraged about how the denominational churches that deceived me regarding doctrines they taught. Comparing TWI to RC, far more truth taught by TWI than RC. Episcopalians almost as bad as RC. Assemblies of God not far behind. Comparing doctrinal errors, just about all denominations far outrank TWI in the number of false doctrines taught. Thus, it all comes back to the emotional reaction to have been involved in TWI, then finding out that it wasn't as perfect as we thought. Most people did not have an appreciation for God and the Bible until they got involved with TWI. Thus, there were good things about TWI. Our emotional reactions and coping mechanisms do not negate that fact. It would be helpful is there was a more logical approach to TWI than what I have seen here at GSC. Most people seem to be here to vent hatred and bitterness and that is exactly how the Devil wanted us to react. David

Craig Martindale, Don Wierwille, and Howard Allen certainly screwed everything up. Then John Lynn and John Schoenheit and Robert Belt and Sue Pierce and others had the nerve to show us wrong doctrines and practices from TWI. LCM and the BOT could have acted toward the reproof they received by humbly admitting the errors of their ways and by taking a back seat to the research team to get teaching accurate again. That didn't happen. Yes, I certainly get mad thinking about how LCM could have saved TWI and kept things going the way they were supposed to go. TWI was supposed to be commited to teaching the truth. LCM and the BOT broke their commitment to God by not doing so. LCM was supposed to obey God and keep God's Word in his heart. He do not do so. LCM acted out of pride and lust. So, what happened? TWI fell apart. Those few that remained were subjected to unconscienable guilt and false accusations and had to change their allegiance from God to an organization. Did that make TWI a cult? Well, plenty of denominations abandoned truth for man's traditions. Is TWI any worse than the Roman Catholic church and its pagan-filled teachings and writings? There is no logical way TWI could be considered worse. Yet, TWI was supposed to do for us what the RC Church couldn't do, and that was to give us the truth. It was personal. Now, being that it was personal. We were betrayed. We were cut off from our friends. We were uncertain and had to go back and re-examine our beliefs. Does that make TWI a cult? Our personal emotions and reactions don't dictate what's a cult. In all logical reasoning, the most cultic organization would be the most paganistic Christian organization and that would be the RC Church. So, is TWI a cult? Does that mean it's good? No, of course not. Do some people need to label TWI a cult as a coping mechanism to deal with the betrayal and losing of contact with friends and with having to re-examine beliefs? Some people do. Everyone reacts to circumstances differently. Now, what TWI did offer us was a hunger in our hearts for God's Word. There is nothing that needs to curb that hunger. We have people of avenues to pursue that. STTF and CFFM and Liberating Ministries for Christ and Sangat Bains and other groups have resources we can use to feed that hunger. We don't need the judgmental name-calling and cult-labeling. We need God's truth. There is no one organization that holds the cornerstone on that. David

We can make almost anything a cult if that is our agenda. Some people consider Amway and Shaklee a cult. In Christendom, the "mainstream" deemed what was "mainstream" and deemed what was not mainstream as being a cult. Yes, after LCM took over as president, things went drastically downhill. Then, after John Lynn, John Schoenheit, et al confronted LCM and the BOT, many people left. That's when the re-examination of beliefs and practices occurred. Many TWI members, including myself, expected the research team to correct some errors in previous teachings. After all, we were supposed to all be in search of the truth. I would not have thought anything of it if corrections had been made along the way. But, John Lynn and the others recommended a departure from TWI and began to disclose many ungodly practices that had been occurring under the watch of LCM and the BOT. It was after this re-examination of beliefs and practices began by those who had left that people developed bad feelings toward TWI. People, in general, react to circumstances in many different ways. After divorces, some divorcees remain friendly with their exes. Some of them act in a detached manner. Some harbor bitterness and anger. Some teenagers feel rejection in junior high school or high school but manage to tough it out. Some focus their rejection toward talents or other interests. Some react with bitterness and anger, even to the point that we've had incident such as that which happened at Columbine High School in Colorado. Former TWI members reacted in a variety of different circumstances. Some deemed TWI a cult and searched for all the various things they could point to that could be characterized as cultic in nature. For those people, in their minds, they needed to dismiss everything about TWI and considering it to be a cult was the way to do so. Others continued following God's Word in Christian Educational Services and Christian Family Fellowship Ministries and the other groups of ex-TWI members. These groups had the luxury of looking at the flaws of TWI and make the appropriate changes. Some simply swore off having anything to do with the Bible or Christianity, in general. Some, wavered between distrust of anything associated with TWI and trying to maintain some connection with ex members. Essentially, if you are determined to consider something a cult, you can find reasons to do so. The problem lies in our minds when we can't forgive. The problem lies in our minds when we harbor bitterness and hatred. The problem lies in our minds when we judge others unfairly because we have personal issues with something. Don't get me wrong. I do not trust the current version of TWI one iota to teach truth. Of course, I don't trust the Catholic Church, the Assemblies of God Church, the Episcopalians, the Mormons, or the Jehovah's Witnesses to teach me the truth either. Yet, I don't have any personal issues with those other groups. The only thing that prevents people from considering Catholicism as cultic is the sheer numbers. Power in numbers gets them into the mainstream. Without the numbers, without the money, without the guilt put upon members of the Catholic Church about leaving, they would be considered as much or more of a cult than any other group. And for those of us who were around in the 70's, people were deprogrammed after converting to Catholicism. And I will never place any man other than Jesus Christ above me in my relationship with God. I will not bow to the pope or to a "man of God" or a cardinal or a deacon or a Saint between me and my God. David

I'm in Columbia, Maryland. But I haven't been in contact with any current or ex-TWI members for awhile. David

Now, I don't want anyone to get the idea that I think TWI is a good organization. There are way too many things that are bad about TWI. TWI was supposed to be about searching the Bible for truth. Well, LCM and other other BOT members weren't interested in hearing the truth when confronted with it back in '86 and '87. Leaders went completely against seeking truth and went out establishing organizational doctrine which was hypocritical to how TWI leaders viewed the denominational churches. I could go on and on ad nauseum regarding the mistakes made. False accusations were levied against members. Leaders broke up families and marriages. And on and on. What I am saying is the so-called "mainstream" Christians labeled TWI a cult solely based upon the teaching that Jesus Christ was not God. I have spoken with a number of priests, ministers, and other church members who have said so. TWI was not considered a cult because LCM ordered 15% giving. TWI was not considered a cult because of its members used the same lingo or acronyms. TWI was not considered a cult because of systematic seminars. "Mainstream" Christians deemed TWI was not "mainstream" because TWI did teaching the Trinity. What constituted "mainstream"? It was sheer numbers. The majority determined who was part of the the majority and then labeled minority how they chose to label them. The power to label lied with the majority who had the numbers in their favor. The Roman Catholic Church teaches far more error than TWI ever taught and has done far more personal harm than TWI ever did, but they have the numbers to power their way into the "mainstream". One can find plenty of Biblical errors in all of the denominations. Could we find betrayal from the mainstream? Certainly so. As a matter of fact, the first time I read PFAL, I was irate with the Christian denominations for having deceived me. What I am saying about cults is that the cult word getting thrown about without real regard to what the organization is all about. I am absolutely, 100% sure that there are people in TWI that love God and love God's Son and love God's Word. I admit that I really don't know what TWI is teaching now and what motivates their members to stay committed to it. I am also sure that there are people in the Catholic Church that love God. The same holds true for other denominational churches. When I went into TWI, I was not "recruited". I went in because I had checked out other organizations and found them lacking in what I wanted. I was not brainwashed. Instead, I relished the truths that I learned while I was there. Yet, in learning how to understand the Bible, I was also able to understand what erroneous teachings I was hearing. There was no mind control. There was no demand to sound like someone else. I never worshipped VPM or LCM. I respected them before I found out their transgressions. I decided when it was time to leave. There was no mind control keeping me from leaving. There were no threats made against me. I left when I felt that I could not, in good conscience, continue to fellowship with the organization until corrections were made. Those corrections were never made, as far as I understand. Yet, I don't hate or loathe the leaders of TWI. They were feeble human beings who made sinful mistakes. I have made mistakes in my life. I don't think about fellow Christian is beyond forgiveness.

Some of the definitions of a cult have to do with the group all saying the same things, all talking the same way, and all acting the same way. America must be a cult. This silly Valspeak began in California in the early 1980's. The gross overuse of the word "like" as an unnecessary filler word is now used by almost everyone forty and younger. Again with the Valspeak, words are incorrectly ordered in the sentences of almost all people forty and younger. Emphasis is put on the wrong parts of words, and it's widespread. This crazy and silly sounding way of speaking has spread across the entire nation and hardly anyone can step back and look at it objectively. The entire nation is acting like a cult, all acting and speaking the same way. It's like we are in Stepford Nation. Fads or trends spread the same way. Almost 80 percent of people in the DC/Baltimore area wear flip flops or sandals or other open-toed footwear away from work and many are wearing open-toed footwear to work. Except for dressier footwear for women, I was almost unheard of to wear such casual footwear to a job 10 years ago. This is a national fad that is practically everywhere, most especially in any urban area. People, nationally, just go through their typical routines without thinking about why they do what they do. They mindlessly mimic those around them. If other people wear open-toed shoes, they do it too. If they hear someone speaking in this unusual way, they do it too. They just mindlessly follow the traditional routines they see around them. If they were raised Catholic, they remain Catholic because it requires no real objective thinking to analyze whether Catholicism is right or wrong. The same holds true for other denominations. Yes, our entire nation seems to be brainwashed to follow the path of least resistance and just do what everyone else is doing. The Cult of America says stay Catholic no matter how unbiblical this denomination is. The Cult of America says to use the word "like" after the pronouns such as I, he, she, or they. The Cult of America says to add the word "so" before the word amazing even though amazing is already a word to add emphasis, therefore being redundant in speech. How do we break free from cults? We think for ourselves. We act and think without bitterness or hatred. We hold God as our priority, not any religion, church, or denomination. We take the good things from our time in the cult, examine how we can use them in our current timeframe free our any organizational ties or binds. We hold on to good memories. We set our sights on the glory that God has in store for us, a glory that is not tied to any particular organization or special group or special man.

I was in Tulsa when Bob Hanna was there. He was a really great guy. Candace Drane was Corps there as part of a WOW family. As a matter of fact, even though I was just living in Tulsa for the summer, Bob arranged for me to live with that WOW family. I was back in school that fall, and Dave Duris and his WOW family came to Tulsa. Dave and Scott Kennedy were there. Dave B

I guess I got out at the right time before most of the BS started. I got out right after the John Lynn letter was circulated. In fact, John Lynn was my LC at the time. When I went to a Limb Meeting, after the letter was distributed, with Howard Allen there, there were a lot of Corps that were jumping up and down screaming complete and utter nonsense. It was, as if, the letter had launched a spiritual awakening with some going toward the good and others going toward the bad. I never knew Mark Wallace. But I did know Corps that seemed to have completely gone bonkers after the letters was out. It seems to me that those Corps who started demanding loyalty to the organization instead of to God had lost all sense. It was if everything they had learned from the Bible on how to become a better person was wiped from their brains and they reverted back to their pre-TWI personalities. Regardless of what people think about PFAL, VPW did stress that the Word should take priority over everything else, including the organization. Apparently, LCM, Don Wierwille, and Howard Allen missed that part. They also missed the part about being able to receive reproof as they completely ignored Godly reproof that was pointed out by John, Ralph Dubofsky, Robert Belt and others. The organization was never was supposed to be more important than the Word. It sounds to me that Mark Wallace went to the Dark Side in a Galaxy Far Far Away from what the whole purpose of TWI was supposed to be about, getting to the truth of God's Word. That Corps who decided to remain with TWI after so many people left continued to sway to the dark side of things being outraged by people's contempt for the organization. It minds me of my childhood. If my sisters found out that I did not like a music group or a television show that they liked, they responded by deciding they didn't like a group or show that I liked. They reacted by thinking that if someone didn't like their group that they could dislike that person, ignoring the whole crux of the matter, and that was people, namely LCM and the BOT, not acting in a Godly manner. Their attitude was that if I left their group, that made me a bad person, and they didn't care what happened to bad people. Thus, when Art Poling left, Naomi Poling death represented what happened to a bad person. They couldn't grasp that they, the BOT, where the problem, not the people that left. So, whatever people may think about John Lynn and the other authors and/or composed of that 1987 letter, they did bring alot of things to light spiritually that opened many people's eyes to what was really going on with the BOT or BOD whatever they called themselves back then.

I guess I left TWI at the right time, in '87 when the vast majority left. No, I was never subjected to personal attacks. That still doesn't justify personal attacks. And you people launch personal attacks back at TWI, that still doesn't mean it is right and doesn't make it right. The Bible clearly talks about forgiving one another. The Bible clearly indicates that we are to comfort one another and speak truth with one another. If you were subjected to personal attacks, I am truly and sincerely sorry that happened to you. It still doesn't make it right. Society in general, whether we are dealing with fundamentalist Christianity or your average Joe Bow, doesn't hold personal attacks as being right. If we fire back personal attacks just because we suffered unkind things while in TWI, we are just as back or worse, because we know better. David

I am not the super-spiritual Bible-thumper I once was when I was in TWI. I have had no consistent ties to CES or CFFM. So, how did I get over the anger against TWI? After all, my whole life and mentally was taken away when I left TWI. I dabbled in a couple of churches but that did not satisfy me, I still felt the void. I joined a science fiction fan club and was able to hang around with a great and interesting group of people. That filled a lot of the void. Now, getting back to the subject at hand. When people were in TWI, yeah, hurtful things happened. LCM called people queers when they weren't. LCM did the M&A thing causing friendships to end or be put on hold. Some women were pressured into having sex with VPW, LCM, and some other leaders. Was it rape? I don't know, I wasn't there. If the women agreed to it at the time and considered it some kind of honor to serve the MOG, and then later considered it rape after they left TWI, well, I do have a problem with considering it rape years after the fact. But, that's just my opinion. I wish I could wave the magic wand and erase all of the times women were pressured or talked into having sex with any of the TWI leaders. Yes, it was certainly a bad thing. Now, if you really, really, think about it, most of the hurtful acts were being yelled at and the sense of betrayal. People get yelled at all the time by parents, children, significant others, bosses, policemen, other drivers, etc. Getting yelled at is no reason to harbor bitterness and resentment. Yeah, it might make you angry at the time, but so what, life goes on. Betrayal. That's a big thing. We somehow thought that we as being part of TWI had all the answers, all the truth, and that there was nothing taught that wasn't true to God's Word. We thought we had the corner on truth. We thought we were head and shoulders in Christendom above all the Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, Pentecostals, and every other denomination. How dare the leaders of TWI convince us we have all the truth? We thought the TWI leaders couldn't possibly interpret the Bible incorrectly and teach us anything that wasn't true. We thought that all TWI leaders walked by revelation 100% of the time and that every single action by a TWI leader was inspired or directed by God. Then what happened. John Lynn and Ralph Dubofsky and John Schoenheit and others confronted the BOT and then started telling as many TWI people as possible some of the things the BOT was doing. Then, many people took a step back and started objectively ascertaining what was happening and it wasn't what we being led to believe. Yes, we were BETRAYED!!!! Some of those things we thought weren't like we thought. We were BETRAYED!!!! How can we ever forgive those leaders? We were BETRAYED!!!! Well, who is bigger, God or the people that betrayed us? I choose God. Betrayal takes many forms. I have known people that were married and one spouse cheated on the other. That person was betrayed and that person went through a nasty divorce. Yet, those people who were never part of TWI learned to forgive their exes. Are we as ex-Wayers incapable of overcoming betrayal while people who were never in TWI can do it. I knew a person who as a kid felt tremendously betrayed and lied to when they put Imperial margarine on their bread and the crown didn't appear on his. That same person opened a bag of Gravy Train and felt betrayed that the little horses and wagon didn't run through the kitchen. The first time I saw one of those scam emails telling me that I had won several million dollars, I felt betrayed and lied to. TWI did not corner the market on betrayal either. People do get over their betrayals. Some people just can't get over the betrayal and the lies. Were our lives so bad when we were in TWI? We believed that God would do anything for us? We believed that God loved us. We believed that we were around people that loved us with God's love. Yeah, we endured some undeserved "reproofs". Yeah, we endured the pressures to get people in PFAL and to get them to go WOW. Yeah, our lives back then were actually pretty good. What changed when we left? Our routine was disrupted and we had to change the structure of our days. We may have had to go back to regular jobs. The thing that occupied our time and energy was no longer there. How would we ever put our lives back together? Well, if we really think about it, our lives didn't change that much, just our thinking. About 8 years ago, I was living in Maryland in a city where there was a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center. I would go to a Denny's Restaurant and I started meeting a lot of people that were involved in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. I hear their stories. One guy robbed a store to get money for drugs, went to prison for 12 years, got involved in AA, and now is a Methodist minister. That guy overcame drug and alcohol addictions. He got over the horrible time of beng incarcerated. Now, he is happy as can be. There are many other stories like that where people overcome terrible situations and now live happy, joyous lives. Please do not presume that life in TWI was anywhere near as bad. Yet, these people overcame their problems. Is it not possible that we can trust God just as much to get over the bitterness and hatred? Now, granted, their replaced their old way of doing things with a new way of life. Many of the ex-TWI sulkers and whiners have done nothing to replace their previous TWI lives with anything they find meaningful and joyful.

I haven't been associated with TWI since March of 1987. I don't like the plagarism and adultery that occured. I don't like all of the "mark and avoid" stuff that went on. I am homophobic, I guess, to be perfectly honest about it, but I certainly think that there were way too many false accusations levied against people accusing of being homosexual when they weren't. I left TWI because I could no longer, in all good conscience, continue to support the leadership of TWI at that time or in any time since. That being said, I have learned something outside of TWI and that was that if I don't have something good to say about someone, then don't say anything. There was something said in TWI that wasn't originated in TWI that if I point 1 figure in someone's direction, I point 3 back at myself. There is always that matter of if I want to find something wrong with something, I will find something wrong. I cannot ascertain someone's motives. I can't say VPW deliberately did this or that. There were things he taught that completely contradicted the principles for understanding the Bible that he taught. Were his motives evil? Only if I decide in my mind that they were, but just because I perceive it to be doesn't make it so. Why would I spent my mental energy trying to find all the things wrong. I believe that way he taught "abundant sharing" was wrong, and that he added to the Word by proclaiming that we as Christians have to do more than OT tithing. I believe that it doesn't matter whether there were 2 or 4 crucified with Christ, my focus is on the 1 in the middle. I don't care what the original sin was, only that it was disobedience to God. I believe that it is not merely "believing" but that it is faith "IN GOD", the trust IN GOD, not the mere act of "believing". But, I try not to twist and read into things, because if I am convinced there is something wrong, then I will interpret his actions as being wrong, whether they were or not. Again, this thread is about personal attacks. VPW was not evil, but plagarism and adultery are sins. Did LCM start out as a typical believer just like you and me? Did he endeavor to serve God to the best of his ability when he came into TWI and went into the WC? Was he endeavoring to lead people to God when he was LC or Oklahoma or WC director? There is nothing to indicate he was any less of a Christian than you or me. It seemed to me that a change happened when he became the Prez. There is a verse in the Bible that says that the pride comes before the fall. It is fairly obvious that LCM's pride got in the way and that is way he thought he could treat people the way he did. Does that make him not a Christian? No, it doesn't. Was I mad and angry and upset and outraged by his actions? Yes, I was. Yes, I still have the capacity to forgive. The Apostle Paul was once a very evil person who commanded the murder of Christians, yet he became a Christian and served Christ to the best of his ability. There is no one beyond God's ability to forgive. Yes, LCM hurt people. But, I am not so arrogant to assume that my hurt is so big and so bad that it is bigger than God. God can heal us from the hurt LCM caused if we only let him. Personal attacks are evident of our own egotistical and prideful attitude that we are somehow bigger than God. God is bigger and VPW and LCM. God is bigger than our hurt. Again, let's condemn the sin, not the sinner. David

Let me slip back into my King James mode for a moment. Jeff, why dost thou blowest thine things wayest out of proportion. Okay, the KJV mode is over. Yes, biblically, a leader is held to a higher standard than your average Joe Blow Believer. That being said, there is nothing in the Bible that says that a leader will be denied life in the hereafter because of sins he committed. There is nothing in the Bible that says a leader who commits sins can't be forgiven. No, it is not frightening. As long as I endeavor to live as godly a life as possible, where does the frightening part come in. It happened a long time ago. VPW died what, 22 years ago. Yeah, he was a leader and made mistakes. So what? God can forgive people for their mistakes. God can help us whatever harm was done by a leader. Griping and whining and b****ing about it does nothing to resolve the problem, turning to God does. As of LCM, yeah he harmed a lot of people. But, it's over with. We aren't part of TWI now and neither is he. He was gone 7 years ago and that was many years after a lot of left, anyway. Whatever he did, stop griping and moaning and whining and B****ing about it and turn to God to help you through with it. No, it is not frightening at all. Believe it or not, God is bigger than VPW or LCM or Rosalie or Harve. The real problem for most people had nothing to do with VPW or LCM. The real problem for most people is that their lives revolved around TWI and everything associated with TWI, good or bad. People woke up and started reading the Word. People got home from work and started preparing a teaching for that night's fellowship. People were preparing to go or already on the WOW field and actively witnessing to other people. In short, their whole hearts and minds and souls revolved around TWI. After leaving TWI, there was a terrible void. People who looked forward to doing things for the ministry were then left wondering how they would fill their time. That left their minds open to hindsight to get upset and outraged and that rage was then directed to VPW and LCM and others. It wasn't what they did that caused the hurt, it was the routines, the schedules, the time, and everything that was wrapped up in being part of TWI that was no longer there. Many of us were saying "What do I do now?". I wasn't what VPW and LCM and others did while we were in TWI, it's what we lost being out of TWI. People's lives were completely turned upside down by not being involved in something, not having something to focus their energy on, not having their trusted friends around, etc. People who felt this void then searched for someone to blame for what was taken away. Then their minds started searching for everything they could think of that was wrong or that they could perceive as being wrong. If something would have happened in the normal course of life by someone outside of TWI, our minds made it 100 times worse than someone in TWI did. Again, our minds blew the hurtful things done to us way out of proportion. Again, the void in our lives caused us to rationalize our anger, not the hurtful things done, because most of did not perceive them as hurtful when they actually happened. Most often than not, when we were in TWI and hurtful things happened, we were more confused than hurt and we couldn't turn to anyone else with our problems without being told to "renew our minds". Again, we must view things in proportion to their actual size. Just because the tire goes flat doesn't mean that the car is a piece of junk. If our significant other says something we don't like, we don't have to search through the files of our mind to retrieve every moment in the past where our SO did something we didn't like. Life must go on.

Dan, just what in the heck are you talking about. Everyone has the right to express their opinion here in these forums, as long as they obey the rules that are set forth. But if you put your opinions out there for everyone to read, yes, people are going to make sure judgments. That's life. You say something, people hear, and they make certain judgments about what you said. Didn't you ever have a wife or girlfriend or close friend question something you said. Of course, you don't have to get my approval to post something in these forums. Where in the world did you get the crazy idea that I had to approve of it. Talk about not being real. But, if you say something ridiculous here, don't be surprised if people find it ridiculous. It is fairly obvious to perceive whining and bitterness and resentment in people's words. Judging? Yes, of course, we go through life everyday judging things. I judge the green light to be a signal to go through the intersection. I judge the car in the next lane with the turn signal on to be trying to get into my lane. I judge my coworker being upset with the way his computer is running to be a signal to go troubleshoot his computer. You are judged by your coworkers and bosses. You are judged by the cop on the side of the road pointing the radar at you. You are judged by the phone company whether you pay your bill on time. Don't be so arrogant that no one should judge you. Again, get real, it's life, like it or not. The topic is about personal attacks. It is wrong to engage in personal attacks. I never learned in TWI that personal attacks were right. I didn't learn in the Baptist Church that personal attacks are okay. Everyday, in the political races that are going on we hear about mudslinging and dirty politics. Personal attacks are wrong no matter who they are directed against.

What you call anger 20 years after the fact is not anger. I feel anger when the mailman doesn't come at his/her usual time. Yet, I don't feel anger for days and days after the mailman screwed up my schedule. I feel anger when someone tailgates me or cuts me off in traffic but I don't mull it over and stew over it for months and years after the incident occured. No, what you call anger is not anger. It is bitterness and resentment and hatred. Anger passes. But hatred lingers. Don't call it anger, call it what is it, hatred. I don't dismiss at all the hurt caused by TWI leadership. I had problems with the Limb Coordinator during my WOW Year in Iowa. He accused me of things that I did not do. My family coordinator passed along a "sin list" to him, and there was nothing I could do to show him, the Limb Coordinator, that the the family coordinator was making up a lot of crap about me. Yes, it happened. Was I angry and upset at the time? Gosh, yes! Do I hate the family coordinator and limb coordinator? No, of course not. It happened 30 years ago! I forgave them a long time ago. I pray for them. I suppose, that when you were in TWI, that you never did anything unkind to anyone else, that you were Mr. Perfect. Being a member of the human race with our faults and frailties, I am sure that everyone did things to others that they regretted, later. I know that I did. Do other people that we did things to have the godly right to let that linger and build into bitterness and resentment and hatred. No, God commands us to forgive one another. Those that experience anger can forgive. People that hate cannot. There is a difference. During times in the past, I know that I built things that others did to me way out of proportion to the offence actually done. I would imagine all of these evil intentions and motives for why they did such horrific things to me. Then, I would examine my own heart and mind. Were those offences actually so bad? No, they weren't. I forgive and went on living my life. I have better things to occupy my mind than to focus on the wrongs done to me. I will never find peace and serenity and tranquility if I harbor animosity and resentment and bitterness and hatred. I will always be the victim if I allow my mind to fester over past wrongs. I cannot do that. As for VPW and LCM, like it or not, they were and are Christians. Magnifying offences way out of proprotion does not make them not Christians. As I said, even non-Christian have the capacity to forgive and often do. Thus, we as Christians should certainly be able to forgive. I did not say forget. But, we can forgive. I cannot be so arrogant as to assume just because these men did things to me that that makes them not be Christians. So, like it or not they were and are our brothers in Christ. We should not focus on the men but judge their deeds only. They did not deeds to deny them a seat in the life hereafter, but they willed be judged according to their deeds done on earth. Hate the sin, not the sinner. In the Bible, it says that we are to forgive people. That was taught in TWI. That is taught by the Baptists, Presbyterians, Assembly of God, Episcopalians, etc., etc., etc.. Just because something was taught in TWI doesn't make the opposite true. There were truths taught in TWI. Forgiveness was one of those things. For gosh sakes, many people that don't believe in God are able to forgive others. Do you think that having been in TWI gives you some special dispensation to hate people, and that it is supposed to be alright with God to do so? David

There are a lot of personal attacks that take place here. Some people bear such resentment and hatred toward TWI that all they can do is attack and lash out and name call and condemn. Their reactions to the problems within TWI cause them to do bad things in kind. Yet, they are blind to what they are doing because they have adopted an egotistical attitude that everyone else must think exactly like they do. Like it or not, people in TWI were Christians, our brothers and sisters in Christ. Like it or not, VPW and LCM were Christians, our brothers in Christ. Yeah, they did some bad things, so let the stone throwing commence. Oh, yeah, we've all done bad things. I was in TWI for over 12 years. Yeah, there's a lot of memories tied to TWI. Yeah, I was angry, angry at LCM and the BOT. Yeah, I was disappointed at plagarism and adultery being carried on by people in charge. I don't hate anyone from TWI. I don't hate LCM. You want to know something, I actually pray for the man. I pray for the Wierwille family. I pray for Rosalie Rivenbark. I pray for Harve Platig. I pray for John Lynn. I pray for Chris Geer. I pray for John Schoenheit. They are all my brothers and sisters in Christ. Whether I disagree with what they do or say or teach, they are still members of the body of Christ (and I don't care if you think my words are too similar to the way TWI used them). If I harbor anger and resentment and hatred, then I would be no better than those I condemn. So, personal attacks are ungodly and to use TWI terminology, contrary to the Word. I don't care if you don't like TWI terminology, carrying around bitterness and resentments are contrary to God's Word. It is better to say the doctrine was wrong than to accuse someone of deliberately teaching error, because you can't know a person's thoughts unless he/she tells you. It is better to disagree with an opinion than to attack the intelligence or pedigree of the one offering an opinion. We are all grownups here, I presume. We can logically, sanely, and intelligently analyze what someone says without resorting to name calling and belittling that person. David

I don't know if terminology or lingo if specific to a cult. Lots of companies have their own lingo for different forms or different departments. Amway has their own lingo. Star Trek fans have their own lingo. Rush Limbaugh fans have their own lingo. Getting more to the point of believing versus faith. First of all, if both words believing and faith come from the same Greek word pistis, then why should it always be translated believing. Secondly, believing what God tells you to do and then carrying out those details is the only situation where believing yields expected and intended results. Simply believing for a million dollars will only lead to frustration and unfulfilled expectations. And if believing equals receiving, there would have been a lot more millionaires in TWI than there was or is. Thirdly, God is our Father. Our Heavenly Father often gives us good things whether we deserve them or not or whether we believe for them or not. Being blessed is not tied to believing for any specific thing(s) to happen. Fourthly, faith connotes a strong connection to God, whereas believing can be anything for which there is no doubt such as believing that the earth is oval and rotates around the sun. Faith is connected with God but believing is just our mental state. Don't get me wrong, I think Christians who do believe that good things will happen to them is a good thing. But, faith in God helps us more. David

I think 99.9% of the people in TWI were good. I think 95% of people's intentions were good. I think VPW had all of the best intentions when he set out to discover the truth of God's Word. Yet, plagarism and adultery became areas of disobedience. He took some of his teachings to be equivalent to God's Word and never bothered checking to see if they were actually accurate. Did that make him EVIL? No, I don't believe so. I think LCM came into TWI with all the best intentions and I believe he served God to the best of his ability until he became the Prez and pride overtook him. It wasn't so much the acts of adultery that led him to his disobedience toward God, but pride. Pride led him into a narcisstic mentally that caused him to inflict pain and suffering on many, many believers. The Way Corps became the way all and be all for many TWI believers. Many people erroneously thought that being a Way Corp made them a better believer. Thus, way too many people joined the Corps. Then, way too many people tried to imitate LCM by dominating and domineering others. For most of the Corps, it wasn't their fault, it was simply the direction they were being pulled into. Did most of the people in TWI attempt to obey God and do his will? Yes. Did most of the people in TWI love God and love others with God's love? Yes. Were there a few that didn't? Well, you find a few rotten apples in every bunch. David

In regard to the death of Jesus Christ, my agenda is not to prove TWI right or wrong. BUT, the emphasis regarding how many were crucified with Christ should have been focused on the one in the middle, regardless of how many others were there. I personally believe that Bullinger and VPW were right on how many were there, but the focus still should have been on the man in the middle, Jesus Christ. Did Jesus die on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. Tradition says Friday. TWI says Wednesday. I also saw a credible argument for Thursday. So, on this point, I don't know and don't care what day it was. The important thing to remember is that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whoever believes in the lord Jesus Christ might have everlasting life. So the day of the week has no bearing on our spiritual lives. Did Peter deny Jesus 6 times or 3 times? Does it really make a difference. Peter denied him and thus needed forgiveness for his transgression. 3 times or 6 times makes no difference whatsoever in our spiritual lives. Yet, it can give an indication that no matter how solid we believe our connection is with God, there may be times when situations get the best of us. Yet, God forgives his children for the acts of disobedience. Some people go overboard in trying to prove TWI wrong. Some people in TWI went overboard to prove the exactness of God's Word. Let all things be done in moderation. David

Oops, I missed the anniversary. Completely forgot. Well, I did nothing for the anniversary. I think I watched college football that day and hoped all the Ohio teams would lose. If I remember right, the bible advised us not to get caught up in rituals, so why would the anniversary be such a big deal anyway. David

Would I go back just because a different leader is in charge? No. Would I go back if TWI formally issued apologies to all of the Christian believers that were harmed by actions of the TWI BOT members? No. I won't happen, but even if it did, it would only be the 1st step toward reforming TWI. Would I go back if TWI made conciliatory efforts toward John Lynn, John Schoenheit, Vince Finnegan, Bo Reahard, etc. to get all the parties together to work toward biblical truths rather than standardized TWI doctrine? No. Again, it will never happen, and even if it did, I don't see TWI BOT members and these other former clergy being able to work out differences in an effort to seek truth rather than propound different doctrines. So the things that I would require TWI to do to consider coming back will never happen. Why consider coming back when it is obvious that the egos involved will never lead to reforming TWI the way it should be reformed. David

I know that LCM and the BOT did a lot of hurtful and harmful things to believers. I know that some Way Corps stepped way over the bounds going reproof-crazy to show how "spiritual" they were. Yes, there were women taken advantage of by leaders. But I also know that bad things have happened to people who had no connection with TWI and bad things still happen to those people. Yet, people in general have different reactions to similar events or circumstances. That is the question we must ask ourselves. Are we blowing what happened to us way out of proportion and harboring bitterness when others simply take the bad with the good and move on? Are we continuing to wallow in pity or are we thankful for the good that has happened to us? As an example, there were many different reactions from New Orleans residents after Hurricane Katrina. Some people vowed that no hurricane was going to chase them away. Others thought it would be too risky to stay there and moved away. Some New Orleans residents took the catastrophe in stride whereas others suffered bouts of depression and fear. I don't want to minimize the hurt caused by TWI leaders but simply to encourage people to put things in proper perspective.

It seems as though this thread was supposed to put a positive spin on what people did learn in PFAL and other teachings from TWI. I might have put things on a negative tone when I mentioned some of the bad things LCM did. And there is no denying that he did treat people in a very unbiblical manner. But I did learn who Jesus Christ was. I did see healing take place. I did begin to understand the Bible. I did develop a close relationship with God and Jesus Christ. Certainly it would be nice if someone could wave the magic wand (no, I don't believe in sorcery or witchcraft) and erase all the bad memories and hurtful acts. But that isn't going to happen. It is up to each individual to come to terms with whatever bad feelings or hurt that TWI leaders caused. Still, many good things did happen to me while I was in TWI. I feel that I left before things got really bad. So I don't have personal knowledge of what LCM and the other BOT did later on. I feel it is important for me to remember the good things that happened when I was in TWI. There were many good people in TWI who loved God and wanted to serve him to the best of their abilities. David