Biblefan Dave

TWI was thriving until the early 80's. Coinciding with LCM running the show, there were distinct changes in the attitude and atmosphere surrounding TWI. LCM's reign marked legalism where obedience to the organization superceded obedience to God. It was more important that the chairs were lined up perfectly than whether the teachings were properly researched. It was more important to have Corps people telling others what to do than following the spirit of God. It was more important to tell people what to do than offer true Christian counseling. It was more important to suppress hurt than to seek comfort and counsel from others. All of the aforementioned items seemed to cloud the importance of God's Word. God magnified the Word above his name, not etiquette or perfect symettry nor how many people got signed up for PFAL nor how much some abundantly shared. Yet, we did hear many great truths in teachings. Let's face it, we were encouraged to believe positively and that did help people accomplish many wonderful things. People did trust God and have tremendous fellowship with God and their fellow believers. Those are not minor things. I am sure God was thrilled by the great love those believers showed him. We can't let hurt and bitterness destroy our relationship with our heavenly Father.

On many Greasespot forums, one can see a variety of different attitudes toward TWI. Some take great pleasure in trying to show how many different things were wrong with TWI. Some are convinced that everything was wrong with it. Some are convinced they were brain-washed by this evil cult. Some still feel that TWI had many good things to offer but the leadership was all screwed up and treated people very badly. I do not relish in bashing TWI to show great intellect. I don't relish in VPW dying in or in LCM's disgraceful exit from TWI. I never felt I was brain-washed. When I left in '87, I simply felt that I could not, in all good conscience, continue to associate with an organization where the top leadership had rejected rightful reproof and chose to continue in erroroneous doctrines. I do still believe that there is clear and distinct evidence from the scriptures that Jesus Christ is not God. I do still believe that the dead are not alive now. I do still believe that the Bible does contain God's will for our lives. I do still believe that there are logical methods for ascertaining the meaning of scripture. On the other hand, the only thing that the Bible clearly tells us about the original sin is that it was disobedience to God. As for the day Christ died, I have seen logical arguments for him dying on Wednesday, Friday, and, in one argument, Thursday, even. So, I am thankful for the sacrifice Jesus made so that we could be born again, regardless of what day it was. As for whether there were 2 or 4 that died with Christ, I don't know and don't know. What I care about is the one in the middle who died for our sins. There is a clear difference between the Old Testament law of tithing of one-tenth of one's income and Corinthians which simply tells us to give as it is purposed in our hearts. Nowhere does Corinthians say that it has to be more than 1/10th. I do believe that adultery is sin, and the leaders of TWI did not. I do believe that people who witness based upon the grateful in their hearts for what God did for them, not to impress others, especially leaders who pressure followers to perform or produce to some statistical level. I am thankful for the time that I was in TWI. I developed a love for God and for the Lord Jesus Christ. I developed an understanding and an appreciation for God's Word. I am also thankful that people exposed the errors that the top leaders were propounding.

Believe me when I say that I am not suggesting anyone re-acquaint themselves with TWI just for the sake of comraderie and a sense of purpose. Maybe for some people, they have the strength of conviction to maintain the connection to God and the Lord Jesus Christ without any organizational affiliation. But for me, I need some sort of sense of belonging to help encourage me to read the Bible and keep that enthusiasm toward God and Jesus. No one has to totally buy into what any particular church teaches to fellowship with them. No one has to completely believe everything that CES or CFFM teaches either. For me, I do need INVOLVEMENT. Involvement doesn't mean mindlessly buying every doctrine hook, line, and sinker. Definitely, people should pray to God to lead them and guide them. People can ask God to show them what would be best for their lives. There is not any one best way that everyone needs to go. No organization dominates the market for truth. I just believe that some sort of involvement is better than stumbling along alone. David

It has been 20 years since I left TWI. When I left, I knew that I couldn't continue my affiliation with TWI, in all good conscience, because of the many wrongs that the BOT were doing. Yet, I took an objective attitude toward doctrines. I did not dismiss everything I learned in TWI as being wrong. There are some things which I simply don't know. I don't know what the original sin was. I don't know and don't really care whether Jesus died on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. The important thing is the deed, the sacrifice, not the particular day. Yes, I still don't believe in the Trinity. I still believe that the dead are not alive now. The biggest void in leaving TWI was that loss of comraderie and the sense of purpose. I, too, have not found that sense of purpose or comraderie in any of the churches I have attended. I do think some connection with other Christians is still important. So, I suggest, if you have to, to "fake it til you make it" to have some connection. That will help keep some the enthusiasm to read the Bible and keep that spiritual fervor toward God. David

Hey, Edee Sure, I remember you very well. I took PFAL in January of '75 when you were there. I am now in Maryland. I heard that you were now in Georgia. David B.

What ever happened to Joe Fair, Ralph Graham, and Paul Cuocco? I didn't personally know the guys, but I had spoken with Ralph Graham a few times. Just curious.

I have found that generally the simplest solution is the best solution to life's problems and questions. Simple tends to be black and white. Yet, the Bible is a very complex (not necessarily complicated, but complex) book. If it's origins are truly of God (and I believe that they are), it's impossible for the human mind to completely grasp that of an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God. Thus, sometimes that simplest solution to some Biblical questions is to admit that we don't know and God will show us the answer if we need to know. We also live in a world full of complicated people. People have all kinds of different religions, beliefs, opinions, habits, preferences, obsessions, addictions, backgrounds, environmental factors, family situations, etc. 2 people of roughly the same age can grow up in the same neighborhood, yet 1 can became a minister and the other can become a serial killer. 1 Muslim from the same mosque can became a radical terrorist while the other simply goes about living the best possible life that he/she can. God is not the one who complicated our lives, people do, and we do it to ourselves. It would have been simpler in TWI to simply set forth a principle. If we are to get "to whom addressed" correct, then how could tithing possibly apply to the Church Administration? If we are not to add a word to the Word, change, or delete words in the Word, how can we get 15% as a minimum standard for giving? Are there exceptions to many rules? Yes, there are. When Jesus spoke to the Jews, does that mean that only Jews can heed and apply what was heard? No, we can always learn from sound principles whether they are directly addressed to us or simply heard as told to someone else. The simplest approach to life is usually the best. The freer we are from hate, guilt, bitterness, shame, unworthiness, and other negative feelings and emotions, the clearer we will be to focus to how we can do God's will. Yet, we cannot be afraid of negative emotions. If a loved one dies, we can feel free to grieve. If our relationship are troubled, we can certainly deal with those feelings and emotions rather than try to bury them in denial. I have no bitterness toward TWI or VPW. I am doing my best to exercise forgiveness toward LCM. I do not want bad things to happen to LCM, Rosalie, Donna Martindale, or anyone else. Though the idea might repulse some, have people ever given the thought of praying for some of these people? If there is ever anyone who needs a lot of prayer, LCM and Donna Martindale certainly need prayer. Rosalie Rivenbark needs prayer. Heck, we all do.

I firmly believe that devil spirits do exist and that people do get possessed. I also firmly believe that many in TWI were overly quick to judge and condemn and accuse their fellow TWI members of being possessed just because certain actions or words did not correspond to what that particular member viewed as correct words or deeds. So, if one didn't want to be accused to being possessed, one tolled that the straight and narrow path. Don't contradict any TWI teachings or offer any insight not blessed by the research staff of the BOT. David

A true Godly ministry would be "ordained" by or instituted by God, or in the current time of the Church of the Body of Christ, by Jesus Christ. Yet, men maintain, or attempt to maintain, that ministry. While the maintance is good, then involvement is good. If the maintaince turns bad, then a cessation of involvement is good. When LCM and the BOT rejected reproof, hey, time to move on.

Could it be that the fire itself is a destructive force but results in a purification? The fire itself doesn't cause purification but results in purification. A forest fire destroys trees and other living things, but it clears away dead matter and criplled and diseased living things so that other things have room to grow. In the matter of the devil, the fire destroys him but purifies the cosmos with the devil's removal.

Vickles, I lived in MN '76-'77, 1 of the Harvesters, and there wasn't much snow that year because most of the time it was too cold to snow, down to -35 degrees at times. Schools were closed in Litchfield, not because of the weather, but because heating costs were getting so high. So, here I am now in Maryland. We got dumped on by snow last Thursday and again this past Monday. It doesn't get 35 below in Maryland but it can be very, very cold here at times. I swear I will never move any farther north than where I am now. David

A few notes about things said in this forum. The Athletes of the Spirit Production. I saw the production. I politely clapped along with everyone else. When asked what I thought, I politely said it was good. Yet, inside I felt numb. Yeah, most of the production was good. Yet, I really felt numb. It didn't seem to have that certainly quality that most Way events had. Later, after I left in '87, John Lynn and John Schoenheit pointed out that the production portrayed Craig Martindale as the hero, not God and Jesus Christ. Jesus is the one who defeats the devil, not LCM. OMG, I couldn't believe I was so ignorant of that simple fact, Jesus Christ must be the star of every show, not the MOGFOT. When I was in the DC, our BC told us that when PFAL classes were run, it was "best" that people sitting in on the class again should be there for the very beginning of the class so as to not distract the new students. When I went to Denver, the BC thought that even if a person had to work later so as to not be able to attend the whole class session, it was "best" the a person be able to hear any part of the class they could. So, 2 different BC's, both Corps grads, had 2 different ideas of what was "best". 1 of them focused solely on the new students and 1 of them focused on everyone that wanted to attend the class. "Reproof" from the Word is solely dealing with the Word, and people's right believing of it. Reproof was never supposed to extend to every little detail. And if people were more concerned about physical details than they were spiritual details, the spiritual details suffered. That's the biggest area that caused problems for LCM, the Corps, and thus, everyone that was supposed to follow LCM and other Corps grads. Most reproof was not reproof but abjunct criticism for not following a particular leader's idea of how something should be done. If reproof was solely based upon the Word and from the Word and dealing with the Word, most people who received neverending criticism would not feel as hurt as they have felt. Take care, David

Lookout, Thanks, I know Fred and Roger, both. Dave

I knew Karin from Peoria, IL when she was a Minnesota Harvester. I currently know a wonderful guy whose son married a Workman from Peoria, IL. I actually met this guy's daughter-in-law (also, a Workman), but she didn't recall a relative named Karin. I do believe she spelled it with an i instead of e.

I knew Paul Giles from Oklahoma. He was in Oklahoma City in '75. I went Summer Outreach in Oklahoma that year in Enid, OK and Paul was our family coordinator. I was with Kevin Kelso, Charles (from Oxnard, CA), and Paul. Paul was a crazy guy. He would wait til I got home from work, and as soon as I entered the door, he would start doing wrestling holds on me. At the time I didn't smoke, and he was always intentionally blowing smoke in my face. I showed him, I started smoking too. David

Neither one, Funster.

Lookout, I went to school in Stillwater from 73-76, 78-79. I was in Tulsa in 78, 80. I knew quite a few from Oklahoma and some from Norman and Lawton.

Leadership should be something people are called to, not something people aspire to. There were way too many people in the Corps. There were way too many people who aspired to be in the Corps. Thus, when people aspired to be Corps, they tried to imitate other Corps they knew. Other Corps they knew were running around reproving people, so the aspiring ones did also. The other Corps they knew were busy teaching or directing or reproving. These aspiring Corps did not see examples of ministering and counseling. With every new Corps year coming around this situation mushroomed. Does a failure to find good examples of counseling and ministering make people that wanted to be Corps bad people? Not necessarily. But, it didn't make them good leaders. Leaders: God told Moses that he would lead the Hebrews out of Egypt, while Moses didn't want to do it. God picked Moses to be a leader. Jeremiah complained a few times about the various bad circumstances he ended up in while doing what God told him to do. I am sure that wasn't what Jeremiah aspired to. After Judas Iscariot killed himself, the others cast lots to decide his replacement. There was no politicing or campaigning by people to be the replacement. People generally recognize and decide who is qualified to be a leader by their abilities, commitment, determination, and energy. Jesus did not choose the Apostles Paul simply because of his charming good looks and dynamic personality. Paul was dedicated to the lord's work. Thus, Corps people not all bad, Corps program all screwed up.

Here's another thought. It states in the Bible that Adam committed the offence against God. God told Adam not to eat of the tree. Now, can people state the sum or gist of a subject without including every single word pertaining to the subject. Was the problem that Eve forgot to use the word "freely" when she responded to the serpent? Did she not accurately relate the gist of the only restriction that God had given to Adam? Did her omission of the word "freely" cause of the problem or what it simply that Eve was deceived? In otherwords, did it really matter that Eve didn't say freely? I don't think so. I believe that we can be right to summarize biblical issues without going to the nth degree to do so, and that Eve's failure to include the word freely had absolutely no effect on the situation.

Let's see. If it wasn't for John Lynn, Ralph Dubofsky, Robert Belt, and Sue Pierce (forgive me if I left anyone out), most of us would probably still be doling out our 15%, still be making yearly treks to Ohio, still be speaking kind things about LCM, still be pushing the law of believing, still be happy not being able to own property (unless we could afford it outright), and still be happy paying more attention to physical details. Yeah, we'd probably still be all one big happy spiritual family. But, John Lynn and the others had to come along and screw everything up by pointing out that adultery was wrong, especially for anyone in Christian leadership. John and the others had to burst our bubble by pointing out that the law of believing had never been passed. We could have been happy with error had John Lynn and the others not messed everything all up. Now some have more truth but wallow in feelings of betrayal and anger. Some have developed a kinder, gentler version of TWI with more truth, better treatment of God's children, and far less pressure to perform one's ministry duties. If it weren't for JAL and others, many of us would still get force fed LCM's overzealous form of Christianity. I knew JAL when I was in the Corps. I knew JAL when he was DC Limb Coordinator. I knew him after he got fired. JAL had his faults just like we all do, yet he made every effort to take the good about TWI and replace the bad with much better things. Now, JAL is a truly honest, humble person who tries to do his best to help people spiritually. When he had problems in a relationship, he relinguished his position as president of CES. That shows his heart and humility. If JAL was rejected by TWI (which he was in '87), then he should be accepted by those whom he helped by shedding the light on what was happening in the inner workings of TWI.

I am not a parent nor a teacher. But, I did skip a grade. Actually, my mother was a school teacher. She interrupted her teaching career to have my brother, myself, and my twin sisters. After my sistes turned 2, and I was 5, my mother resumed teaching school. I grew up in rural Oklahoma. My mother took my 2 sisters to another woman who cared for them during the day, as my father had to take care of the farm/ranch. I would accompany my mother to the school. I was a small country school with all 8 grades in one large classroom. I would sit in school and often do schoolroom, even though I was not enrolled in school. I attended school on and off that year. After that school year ended, the school was closed due to rural consolidation and merged with another school. My mother got a job teaching school at that school. My mother asked the superintendant if I could go immediately into the 2nd grade, at age 6. The superintendant said that if I did well in the 2nd grade, I could start out in the 2nd grade. I never skipped any other grades. But, I did graduate high school and enroll in college when I was 17. So, I am one of the few people in the country who can make the dubious claim of never having passed the 1st grade. I also started doing schoolwork at home when I was only 4. Then enabled me to be advanced for my age and allowed me to compete and win numerous academic contests, including regional spelling championships.

There is also a theology called Binitarians who believe that the Father is God and the Son is God, and that they both comprise the Holy Spirit, as God is Spirit. I certainly don't believe that but there are some who do.

Never mind, figured it out. I have not read JCING in many years. To the best of my knowledge, there were numerous references and citations given in the book.

I think that the most beligerent Way bashers have accused VPW of plagarizing every known writer on earth. But who is JCING?

Bill was my WOW in Marshalltown, IA in '77-'78. I went back to Iowa to be at their wedding the winter after that. I wonder where they are now.