Biblefan Dave

I'll vote for anyone who agrees to never ever play "Beautiful Ohio".

For the most part, VPW used sound logic and sound principles in understanding the Bible. When he covered the others crucified, he used all relevant scriptures. When he dealt with believing, not so good. If believing = receiving, then he should have dealt with every situation in which someone received something. Most of the teaching regarding believing = receiving centered around the cursing of the fig tree, which in the Advanced Class was taught as the manifestation of believing. Now, if God tells a person to believe something, and the person believes it, it will come to pass. The cursing of the fig tree was such a situation. But, God must initiate the action but first telling the person. Other parts of the teaching on believing = receiving was experiential (the woman who wanted red drapes and the little boy who got hit by the car) or the opinion that people die when they stopped believing. I think that it is the other way around. People stop believing when they die. Of course, they're dead, they can't believe. Did everyone in the Bible who received something from God believing for it? I don't think so. From out of nowhere, Jesus approaches the man with the withered hand and tells him to stretch out his hand. Where does it indicate that he was "believing for it to happen". God has the power to heal. Jesus spoke that healing into believing with the spoken Word. There is no indication of prior believing, nor having needs and wants parallel, nor knowing beforehand what was available. I would imagine the whole healing incident occurred within just a few minutes time. Jesus ministered deliverance to those who were possessed. They could not believe. They were possessed. Jesus ministered healing to Lazarus by raising him from the dead (dead, thus unable to believe). The Gospels also say that people do not have things because they ask amiss, for the wrong motive or reason. If believing = receiving, then there would have been around 50,000 millionaires in TWI. Of all those believing to be rich, I would guess may 5 at most could claim millionaire status, if that many. 1/10,000th would not indicate that the law holds to be true. God is not so cruel as to demand that we could only have something if we were absolutely, 100% convinced of something.

Dan, I am not claiming people are acting out of bitterness or hatred just because they disagree. I happen to live in a city where there is a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center. AA and NA are very big here. I have become friends with a number of people involved in the 12-step programs. I have gone to AA & NA meetings to see what it's all about. I find the people in these groups very spiritual, very kind, very understand, yet they disagree with me on many subjects. First of all, my "Way mentality" still tells me that if I limit myself to 2 drinks at a time, I will never have to humbly tell these friends that I am one of them. Second, my personal belief is that any "higher power" other than the one true God is idolatry. But, if we examine this situation logically, the title for this forum is "Wierwille's Wacky Dispensationalism". Plenty of Bible researchers and teachers before VPW believed in dispensations or administrations. People before Bullinger believed in them. Yet, the creator of this forum characterized VPW and though this was clearly VPW's idea. There is certainly a Biblical basis for dispensations or administrations. Adam and Eve before the original sin, Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden. Before the law was given, after the law was given. Under law, then under grace. So, attributing this doctrine to Wierwille was wrong because the OT and NT authors presented the idea. Plenty of theologicians have taught the idea. Bullinger taught the idea. So did VPW. Why did the creator of this forum determine that it was "wacky". The creator of this forum and so others who have similarly "wacky" anti-Way mentalities reacted to the problems within TWI by deciding that everything about TWI was bad. Their decision that administrations were wrong was not based upon scriptural evidence but by how they reacted to the downfall of TWI. In life, there are plenty of things that can anger us. I don't like standing in lines. But if I believed that anyone who made me stand in line was of the devil, my thinking would be pretty screwed up. I would be reacting to situations and personally blaming individuals who were doing the best they could do at the time. I have heard people accuse VPW of being in it for the money. I saw some of VPW's tax returns. I think the most he made, at the time I saw the returns, was around $43,000. If I remember correctly, his salary was actually around $60,000 annually. He usually did not even collect his entire salary. And that's suppose to mean he was only in it for the money. That is people illogically and immorally attributing motives to someone to feel superior to that person or group. I have been around plenty of people who had different viewpoints or conclusions. I moved to Maryland, my WOW year, from Oklahoma. Everyone I knew in Oklahoma, believer-wise, was a Cowboys fan. I moved to Maryland and, to my surprise, believers in Maryland actually had the audacity to root for those dreaded Redskins. They came to a different conclusion about which NFL team to root for. It's pretty easy to spot the venom gushing out of the fangs of some of these posters. VPW did this. VPW did that. VPW was the cause of this. VPW was the cause of that. For most people who left TWI, the problems they encountered were related to their attitudes about leaving and how long they maintained those attitudes. I mean, I was upset. Yes, at one point, I felt angry and betrayed. I was mad at Craig. Then, I was mad at John Lynn for stirring up everything. Then I was mad at Craig for having to have John stir up everything. But, I began to view the problems that happened within TWI the same as when problems happened on the WOW field. I viewed the situation as another bump in the road, and that God would see me through this situation. I left TWI but I did not leave truth behind. I did not let anger cloud my heart to the truth. I took Dale Sides' classes. I went to a charismatic church. I went to CES fellowships. I went to fellowships that became a part of CFFM. I ran the gamut of different options. When another ex-Wayer and I went to the charismatic church, we would offer positive things to one another about the church. I liked their care groups (home meetings). I liked their worship time when the band was playing and everyone was waving their hands in the air. I felt TWI was way too rigid in their appreciation of our savior, Jesus Christ. I took the class offered by the church. In 1990, I was very open to new things. The harder I tried to find flaws in the doctrines of Jesus Christ is not God and Are the Dead Alive Now, the harder it was to dismiss those doctrines. Then when the church found out about our Way involvment, they were endlessly trying to convince us that we had to believe in the "deity of Jesus Christ". Time to see ya later. Later, I went to a Baptist Church for about 1 year. I listened to whatever was taught by the Baptist minister, Rev. Terry Crowley. I would compare it to what I read in the Bible. Some was right and some was wrong. But I didn't go creating a forum so that I could vent my rage against the man just because he wasn't perfect. I just got bored with the Baptist Church. I told you already that part of my reaction to the worship time at the charismatic church was a belief that TWI was too rigid in the way they worshipped God. So, one could see how I would think the Baptist Church boring. I tried 3 different churches. I tried the gamut of ex-Way groups. I do feel a closeness both to CES and to CFFM. I know there are a few differences doctrinally, but I don't think there is that much difference spiritually. I believe people in both groups have their heads on straight, love God, and endeavor, to the best of their abilities, to serve God.

More on Way doctrine: If speaking in tongues is speaking to God, wouldn't the interpretation be addressed to God also, not God speaking to man. That would be prophecy, thus what people that was interpretation was not but instead it was prophecy. Too much focus on physical details leads to too little focus on spiritual matters. The more abundant life is the new birth, not material possessions or wealth. There is a difference between wealth and prosperity. III Jn 3 is God's desire for people, not necessarily a promise. God wants us to be prosperous and in good health, as our soul prospers. Hey, if we focus too much on hatred, our soul will not prosper.

Do you know what this topic was going to be called beforehand?

I think some of these posters here are so wrapped up in their hatred of the TWI, it's impossible for them to understand truth. Hatred, bitterness, resentments, and animosity do no one any good. They cloud your judgment. When I left TWI, the Word did not leave me. I for one am extremely thankful for the 12 years I spent in TWI. When I was 18 years, I told God that things had to get better or I would kill myself on my 19th birthday. On my 19th birthday, I was sitting in the 2nd week of the PFAL. I am very thankful for the Word that was taught me by Dr. Wierwille and other TWI leaders. When I left, I re-examined many of the things I was taught. Did you get that, I re-examined. Some of you are so anti-Way you may never understand or believe truth again. I re-examined doctrines, whereas so of you go out of your way, to the farthest extremes possible, to try and find fault with everything taught in TWI. Some of you clearly will never understand administrations but you are determined to prove it wrong, even though it is right. There is no hope for you knowing truth when your whole agenda is trying to put down Dr. Wierwille, when he isn't alive to defend himself. Even the ridiculous name for this forum shows immediately how some people are approaching this subject. And in case you didn't know it, there were many people before VPW who taught about administrations, including Bullinger. So, those of you propounding this anti-Way, anti-Wierwille have chosen probably the most idiotic, egotistical, self-centered, non-rewarding agenda possible. As far as Way materials. I actually don't own any Way literature or other materials. As far as Way doctrines are concerned. Jesus Christ is not God was what TWI taught. And they were absolutely 100% right about. The stupid trinity doctrine is a paganistic pile of crap, with no biblical basis whatsoever. As far as Way doctrine, I do not believe believing = receiving, I believe believing influences receiving. And God knows my needs so I don't have to have my needs and wants parallel. God can give me things before I know they are available. The Cry of Triumph was not a cry of triumph but taken from Psalms 22 where the psalmist, David, was examining the course of events that he had experienced. There was a feeling of being forsaken by David. Later, David, in Psalm 23, tells of how great things had become. Jesus, on the cross, reminded people that things may seems bad now, but they will get better later on. As for the Lay of Abundance and Power, I never took the class. Adultery is wrong, always has been wrong, and always will be wrong. Adultery is sin, period, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. As the the "absent Christ", my Christ has never been absent from my life. Yes, I believe in devil spirits. I believe spirits affect homosexuals. I believe spirits affect adulterers. I believe that LCM would have been too influenced y his own spirits to spot the spirits affecting anyone else. We are supposed to hate the sin, not the sinner. LCM acted with hatred toward gays, therefore that hatred resonated toward anyone he merely suspected was gay. 10% tithing applied to the law administration, not the church. Giving of abundance applies to the church. VPW did a great job when he showed 4 crucified with Christ. I absolutely believe that 4 others were crucified with him. What were they crucified on, stakes or crosses? I don't know. They used both items during that time period. The Bible uses the word "cross". A cross would have to be sawed or shaped would be take more preparation but make it lighter than a round pole or stake. A round pole is less work but harder to carry. If one merely intends to kill someone, less preparation would seem to be more likely. If one wants to make a spectacle of it, then a cross would be more likely. In otherwords, I don't know, and I really don't think it makes any difference if I do know. What day was Jesus crucified on? I don't know. I have seen credible arguments made for both Wednesday and Friday. I actually think the argument for Thursday made more sense than Wednesday or Friday. So, I don't know what day he was crucified, and knowing the particular day won't affect or influence my life whatsoever. That's enough for now.

Hey Ron, Yeah, I am still around. Been in MD ever since leaving CO. But, I plan to move back to my home state of OK next year around Apri or May. Hope everything is going well with you.

On the other hand, believing positively does influence (notice I said influence, not guarantee automatically) positive things to happen. If one feels confident when going to a job interview, and feels he/she is qualified for that job, the person is far more likely to get the job than if one has a negative attitude about getting the job. A positive atttitude toward a waiter or waitress will normally get you better service than sniping and complaining to the server. Doctors, scientists, and psychiatrists firmly believe that stress, worry, and anxiety can affect a person's physical health negatively, as well as one's mental health. So, what we believe can affect or influence or setup circumstances in either a positive or negative way.

Actually, we could nominate anyone who would refuse to ever play "Beautiful Ohio" again, especially not at 7:00 am.

Here's another interesting combination: Dan Rather - President Jayson Blair - Vice President Kenneth Lay - Secretary/Treasurer. Dan Rather can keep us updated on news about TWI, Jayson can come up with the actual stories, and Kenneth Lay can manage the money.

Dale Sides was an ordained clergy in TWI. He was a former limb coordinator, but I forget exactly where he was, I think, mayble Wyoming. I left and started his own group called Liberating Ministries for Christ. He believes that Jesus is God, but not part of any triune godhead. I took one of his classes a long time ago when his group and CES were temporarily collaborating. He has a class called Exercising Spiritual Authority which was a pretty decent class. But he has come up with some really "out there" ideas about the Bible. I think his website is www.lmci.org. BTW, CES decided that their doctrines were too far apart and parted company a number of years ago.

I wouldn't really consider it a revision in doctrine, but there were some clarifications. I heard the all without distinction was changed to all with distinction versus all without exception. I am sure there were other clarifications, but that's the only one I can recall at the time. There were times in the Advanced Class where VPW or others would teach a few verses from the Bible, then indicate that they were working on a topic, and to hold that subject in abeyance until further research was done on the subject. In otherwords, they would bring up a potential future topic for teaching that was still being researched. But, no, honesty, I don't recall any times where the top leaders of TWI actually said they were wrong. John Lynn and the others did show why some of the doctrines were wrong, but top leadership never had the honesty and integrity to correct those errors.

My sisters live in Bartlesville, OK where Craig is from. My mother is also in hospice care there. I have been to Bartlesville the past 2 years for Xmas, since my mother was no longer living in a home of her own. I plan to be there this Xmas as well. Of course, I don't plan on looking up any of the Martindales while I'm there.

With Oklahoma Univ. again finishing in the top 4 NCAA teams in the country, and Oklahoma State also finishing in the top 25 team, Oklahoma is clearly a hotbed of football. Oklahoma has some of the most avid high school football fans in the country. Last year, OU, OSU, and Tulsa all played in bowl games with OU playing for the national championship. OU is again playing for the national championship this year. OSU played themselves into the Final Four this year. Eddie Sutton is a longtime respected college basketball coach having coached at Arkansas and Kentucky. OSU is one of the top collegiate wrestling teams year after year. Jenks in one of the top 10 high school teams in the country this year.

I have already no problems with the Red Sox winning a World Series every 86 years.

I thought it was basketball, not basketbrawl.

Silver and Gold from the Rudolph cartoon. All of the music from the Charlie Brown Christmas special. The Chipmunks Christmas song. All of the songs from How the Grinch Stole Christmas.

Does anyone know Karin Workman from Peoria? She was one of the Minnesota Harvesters in '76-'77. A friend of mine is actually trying to get a Minnesota Harvester reunion together.

I never heard VPW say that the OT was to be completely ignored. Some of the very first verses used in PFAL were from the OT. There are many parts of the OT that don't apply specifically to us in the administration of grace. Jesus fulfilled the law, so we don't have to obey the law. Yet, there are still other sections of scripture that convey the same level of obedience as the OT laws. We are still not supposed to murder. We are still not supposed to steal. We are still not supposed to take advantage of a neighbor's spouse. But we don't refrain from killing, stealing, and covet's another's spouse because we are under the law. We do it because it is specified in NT scriptures as well. We in the grace administration are not ordered to avoid eating any fruit from any trees in the garden of Eden. Eden is no longer available. So, where one calls it an administration, dispensation, era, eon, epoch, or anything else, that does not apply to us. God dealt differently with Adam and Eve after they were expelled from Eden than before. So, administration, or dispensation, or whatever you want to call it. The rules or conditions or circumstances did drastically and dramatically change. In our modern English refer to the length of time that a particular president is in office as an administration. We don't refer to the Lincoln Dispensation or the Coolidge Dispensation. It was the Truman or Eisenhower Administration. Now, the Gospels. Tricky territory there. Some things apply to the church, some things don't. Some things we can learn from the Gospels, other things applied strictly to that particular time period and those particular people. There is no Christ Administration because they were still under the law. Yet, Jesus fulfilled the law while he was present on earth. So when exactly did the church administration begin and the law administration end? Was it on the Day of Pentecost? Was it after Jesus arose? Was it the moment he died? If the new birth is tantamount to the grace administration, then it would have begun at Pentecost.

CES would be agreeable under the right circumstances. No authoritarian structure. No adultery. No law of believing nonsense. CES temporarily joined forces with Dale Sides group. CES temporarily joined forces with a church in Florida, I believe. CES has shown themselves to open to a number of different groups. Obviously, CES would never agree with simply merge with TWI with TWI as it is currently.

They picked a woman so they wouldn't have to deal with any more sexual coerciion or sexual harassment lawsuits. I don't think Donna Martindale would sue her.

As far as believing=receiving: receiving would be the response to God giving. God is a loving God and would never be so cruel and to say to a follower "Just believe, no, there's still some doubt, here it is, you know you want it" The believing=receiving idea is like teasing a dog by holding the piece of meat higher than the dog can reach it. That is not the way God works. Numerous times, God simply gave his followers things. In all honesty, if believing did equal receiving, there would have been around 50,000 millionaires in TWI. The source of the giving is God. The cause of the receiving is God, not our mental capacities or abilities.

JT, How about Dale Sides for sec/treas. The combinations would be even more interesting.

I heard the POP in '86. I simply expected the Trustees and other leaders to work everything out and get things back on the right track. I wasn't until '87, after receiving the 2/26/87 letter that John Lynn circulated that I started to question my involvement. Then I went to a limb meeting where there was a lot of shouting being done by Way Corps directed toward John Lynn. Most of the shouting made no sense whatsoever. I was under the impression that the problems in TWI were a result of the Trustees actions and policies, not John Lynn's and the others who prepared that letter. The limb meeting was what prompted me to leave TWI. John Lynn happened to be the DC limb leader that year. After POP, I had a skeptical attitude toward Martindale. The limb meeting was the last straw. If the Trustees did not want to assure the accuracy of their teachings and if they did not want to abstain from sinful practicies and if they did not to treat my fellow believers properly, then I could not in all good conscience continue to associate with TWI.