Biblefan Dave

There are distinct differences between tithing in Malachi and giving of abundance in Corinthians. In Malachi, it mentions one-tenth of firstfruits and one-seventh of time. In Malachi, there are no specific penalties for not giving. Malachi simply asks if anyone would rob God. The benefits in Malachi, for giving, is that God would open up the heavens and pour out a blessing such as there would not be room enough to receive. So, Malachi says that a person should give, and a person should give 10% of firstfruits. In Corinthians people are encouraged to give, without any indication or penalties or repurcussions for not giving. In Corinthians, people are encouraged to give of their abundance, not firstfruits. God loves a cheerful giver. God looks upon the heart. As a man sows, so shall he reap. So, the church epistles definite teach that giving is good, but there are no minimums or percentages. TWI taught "abundant sharing" as necessitating the giving the 10%, then mandating one to give of the money left over after the 10% is figured in. That is not abundant sharing. That would be tithing plus abundant sharing, not something God commands us to do. It is a matter of getting "to whom correct". The 10% was directed to people under the law. The encouragement to give of one's abundance is given to the church administration. Also, VPW made the statement that we as believers should do more than those under the law. The Bible never says that. In most cases, we actually are supposed to do less than what OT believers did. We have 2 commandments rather than 800 plus. We are to love God... and love our neighbors... We don't have to do all the things OT believers did. In the grace administration, we can lead people into the new birth. That is the only thing I see people doing more of (the OT believers couldn't do it at all). That VPW's statement was adding to the Word, which means we no longer have the Word regading tithing and abundant sharing.

I'd like to have TWI, CES, and CFFM all get together and collaborate on getting back to basic truths of the Word. That's what I'd like to see happen. I've talked to people in CFFM and CES and they are agreeable to such an idea. But many people such as Doug McMullan and others have talked to TWI without any success so far. I could not, in any way, shape, fashion, or form decide to become a part of TWI as it is right now. If there was an honest effort to clean up the doctrinal error and get rid of sinful practices, then I would reconsider. I don't hold any grudges, animosity, hatred, resentful, or bitterful toward people in TWI. I don't consider any TWI followers to be stupid or brainwashed. I simply think they have too many erroneous doctrines, engage in too many sinful practices, forsake spiritual matters for "physical details", have leadership who doesn't "serve", and exercise too much control over people's lives.

I nominate John Lynn as President and Chris Geer as Vice President. I like interesting combinations.

I thought Chris Geer was back in the US.

The Gospels did precede the administration of grace. But, Jesus would sometimes address things specifically dealing with the Jews and the law. Other times, Jesus was telling people about things to happen in the future. Jesus told Nicodemus about being "born again" but I don't see that occurring until the Day of Pentecost. As far as Old Testament and New Testament, that was basically how the Roman Catholics divided the canon of scripture. Thus, it was a man-made division of the books of the Bible. When God made the covenant with Abraham, wouldn't that have been a new "testament"? Then when God gave the tablets of stone to Moses bearing God's laws, God oversaw a change in the way people were supposed to obey God. The Gospels were basically books of either transition and/or preparation for the administration of grace, the "newer testament". Accept for the book of Revelation, most of the prophecies to Isreal regarding the future Isreal were in the "Old Testament". Therefore, the Old Testament set forth the Appearing Administration. So, the new was actually contained in the old. So, it is not just getting "to whom correct" but also getting "time period correct".

Alfa, You're a lost case. You are lost in this hatred of Wierwille, Martindale, and The Way. Wierwille was right on a lot of things so if I am quoting Wierwille on those matters, then I am right. For me to ever admit that Wierwille was right on things would shatter your huge ego. Forgiveness is a big key to overcoming adversity. People who had family members murdered have been more forgiving than many people have just because Martindale betrayed people's trust. Until you learn forgiveness, you'll be trapped in this endless loop of anguish and hatred. The fact that you talk about the "classic wayfarer" shows just how clouded and jaded your thinking is. I never saw any "classic wayfarers" when I was in TWI. I saw a lot of people that loved God and wanted to do His will. That's what I saw, and what most people saw. That just proves your shortsightedness. This overgeneralization of matters prevents you from knowing truth. Again, Alfa, you are the one coming up with these vague generalities. You are the one full of contempt. Why don't you just learn to forgive and seek an honest course through life.

Alfa, Again, operating under an agenda to disapprove way theology is not a logical approach. Anyone can twist or distort or misquote or take things out of context. The objective should be a quest for truth, not to disapprove way theology. In an obsessive effort to disapprove, you fall into the trap of deciding to no longer believe things that are true. From a Christian point of view, not from a Way point of view, an anti-Way point of view, or solely from a denominational point of view, forgiveness is a big key to Christian living. Yes, VPW did things I did not like. I did not like the plagarism. I did not like the sexual coercion. He neglected a lot of scriptures regarding the so-called "law of believing". In teaching about getting "to whom correct", there were distinct differences between tithing under the law in Malachi, dictating one-tenth and the verses in Corinthians to the church simply encouraging people to give of their abudance. Yet, VPW applied tithing to the church, contradicting this very own teaching. I wish he had paid more attention to the scriptures in that area. Yet, I hold no bad thoughts whatsoever about VPW. LCM did a lot of bad things to people. Adultery, unscriptural authoritarian rules and regulations, lacking pastoral skills, lacking research skills, poor financial management, being quick to judge, and on and on. But, you know what, LCM is still a brother in Christ. LCM will be a part of the gathering together, like it or not. Why not just forgive and bury this hatred and animosity? Who said one had to be a psychiatrist to recognize anger? Anger still all over the place, and no one needs a license to recognize its existence. Bad logic used there. What's the difference between law and grace. Law is a set of rules which have a punishment if not following. Admittance to paradise was conditional under the law to the adherence to the law. Under the "administration of grace" (notice the actual words used in the Bible), salvation is given immediately upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our lord and savior. Under grace, the acceptance of Christ as our lord is the only condition that one must meet. Rewards in paradise, under the grace administration, are determined by obedience to God's Word, not admittance. Ok, stop me if I am going too fast for you. There was a time before the law was given. WOW, what a fascinating concept. I am not breaking a law if I fail to stop at an intersection that has no stop sign. If someone puts up a stop sign, and then I fail to stop, I have broken a law. Conditions changed. I guess it's just that "way theology" that makes me decide to stop after they put up that stop sign, because I have the common sense to recognize that there was a reason things changed. Abraham had to obey God but he didn't have to tithe one-tenth of his firstfruits. He wasn't under the law. God can't determine obedience unless there is something to obey. Thus, the law was given. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. Thus, the law ended. Thus, a change in the conditions or rules. If they take the stop sign away, there is no longer a legal penalty for failure to stop. At one point, no law. Then later there was law. WOW, a difference. No law, then law. Then Christ fulfilled the law. So again, no law. Another difference. Under law, salvation by obedience to the law. Under grace, salvation by obedience to Romans 10:9,10. Another difference. Christ upon vs. Christ in. Another difference. Stoning as punishment for adultery vs. he who is without sin, cast the first stone. Another difference. You see, if you unclutter your mind from this resentment and get rid of that "anti-way theology", you can simply ascertain what the Bible says. It's not that difficult.

I went to the Star Trek Experience about 4 or 5 years ago, the same year that it first started. It was great then, but I know that they've added more to the exhibits.

Alfa, The first mistake a lot of ex-Wayers make is to hold so much animosity and resentment that they go out of their way to try and find poke holes in all of the Way's doctrines and practices. Just because TWI taught something does not in any way make it completely right or completely wrong. It is obvious by the term "way theology" that you still harbor a lot of hatred, bitterness, resentment, and animosity toward TWI. TWI is a legal entity composed of people. Within any organization, one can find good people and not so good people. TWI never did anything to me or against me. It was only certain people who did things. I left TWI in '87, over 18 years ago. I do not have "way theology" nor do I have "anti-way theology". If you can't see the difference between the law and the grace administration, you really don't understand the Bible at all. TWI teachers did teach a lot of correct doctrines. If one goes out of his or her way to try and find fault with what was true, then one ends up in error, but can let their anger and bitterness justify their error. Maybe, you are the one that really needs to open your mind. Obsessively being anti-Way will not lead one to truth. The Word of God is our source of truth. It is not TWI, nor mainstream denominationalism. You really need to deal with the anger issues that you have.

There were, most certainly, distinct differences in the rules that applied to Adam & Eve when they were in the garden of Eden then after they got kicked out. There were definite differences in the rules that applied to Moses than to Abraham. There were a great deal of differences in the rules or conditions that apply to the administration of grace than those who lived under the law. Call them what you will, whether you call them administrations or dispensations or eras or eggnog graphites, the rules and conditions still changed from one time period to another. As far as the 4 Gospels. The Gospels are a horse of a different color. Sometimes, Jesus is directing his comments directly to those of Jewish heritage and deal strictly with the law. Other times, he is hinting to people about the things to come, when the rules and conditions will change. No, I do not believe that everything in the gospels only applied to the law administration. Whenever Jesus was talking about future conditions or rules, it can directly apply to people in the administration of grace. Jesus marked the transition from the law to grace administrations or eggnog graphites (if you prefer).

I spoke with Avis (Jaenssen) Halbert in Colorado, one of the Minnesota Harvesters, mentioned the possibility of having a reunion of Minnesota Harvesters out in the Denver area sometime soon, maybe around April or May of 2005. If you know of anyone who was a Minnesota Harvester, please have them come here to this forum or email biblefandave@yahoo.com.

The last I heard, Craig was living in the Toledo, OH area working for UPS and as a personal fitness trainer. I was disclosed awhile back that TWI actually owns a house in Toledo, but it was confirmed that Craig was not living that TWI's house. I believe Donna is still living at HQ. I believe that she and Rosalie are very close (but that's all I can say about it as anything else would be sheer runor).

Thanks, Radar, That's 3 down, 3 to go.

I dabbled a bit in the 15th Corps. My WOW year in DC in '80, our family coordinator was Susan Palange of 10th Corps. She is now in the Atlanta area. She actually left TWI in '85, before the mass exodus began. She is a very nice woman, spoke to her on the phone a few months ago to catch up a little bit on old times. To be honest, I don't really remember who was in what corps.

I was in CO from Dec '84 til Feb '86. I was in Arvada with Mike Cahill, Scott Powell, Ron Johnson, and Sal Palomino. Anyone know where Susan Kuhn went to? I think she might have moved back to Washington state.

I am looking for anyone who was in Oklahoma between 1974 and 1980.

Vickles, Never got a chance to go fishing. There was a lake on the edge of town. There were a lot of fish houses out on the lake during the winter, but I never got a chance to go ice-fishing or any other fishing. I was in the Minnesota Harvester program, so my roommate and I were busy with other things.

I am interested in locating some of the College WOW's that were assigned to Oklahoma State University from '74-'75. I am looking for Kevin Kelso, Judy Womack, Vic Terry, and Yvonne Terry.

I lived with Paul Giles in a summer outreach program in Enid, OK in 1975. I knew he was planning to go into the Corps at the time. I believe his brother, David Giles, in listed in the Cortright Fellowships list of believers in Texas.

For the most part, VPW got this right. It does mention an administration of grace, in the Church Epistles. When there is a sharp or dramatic change in conditions or regulations, there would be a different administration. When Adam sinned and Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden, the rules that had been previously established by God no longer applied. When God made the covenant with Abraham, again the rules changed. When God gave the tablets to Moses, the rules changed extensively. After Moses gave the laws to Moses, the laws were in effect until Christ fulfilled the law. With the fulfillment of the law, an administration of grace was ushered in with very different rules or conditions. People in the administration of grace can be born again, whereas people under the law were only adopted by God. People had the spirit upon them, conditionally, dependent upon their obedience. Disobedience to God does not cause one in the grace administration to lose salvation, whereas the spirit could depart from someone under the law, i.e. King Saul. We as former members of TWI are in this precarious situation. We discovered that TWI had made errors, and had refused to correct them. Some people were upset about the error, and became angry, bitter, and resentful. They rejected everything they were taught. They developed an agenda to try and disprove everything VPW and LCM and other leaders taught. They were adamant about trying to show how wrong TWI teachings and teachers were. Thus, the agenda caused people to reject things that were true because the intent and goal was to prove them wrong. This overcompensation or overreaction caused people to err in the wrong direction. We have the tools and principles to understand God's Word. We just need to use those principles in a logical manner, yet let the spirit of God in Christ inside of us help us understand God and his Word, and let us establish a very heartful loving relationship with a very non-absent Christ.

I would say that I still look at rows of chairs to see if they are perfectly aligned, then I picture some Corps guy/girl yelling at someone because they weren't. If I am late for something, I still feel a bit guilty about it. I still address my prayers to "My Heavenly Father". I still rise when someone important enters the room.

Vickles, I lived in metropolitan (just a little over 5000 people) Litchfield, about 70 miles west of the twin cities.

18 years out of TWI, I still believe that God's Word is the standard for truth. I also believe that God's Word showed that TWI was wrong regarding such things as the law of believing, tithing applying to the church, the so-called cry of triumph, the Word taking the place of the "absent Christ", being able to pray to and talk to Jesus, the definition of righteousness, and communion wee wrong. I also know that God looks upon the heart. No denomination, ministry, church, fellowship, or other Christian organization has the corner on truth. There are lots of Christians who may be wrong in doctrine, but very much right about their relationship with Jesus Christ. There are people in charismatics churches that may believe that Jesus Christ is God (a definite wrong doctrine) but also have a very strong relationship with Jesus. There are even Roman Catholics that have a very powerful relationship with Jesus, even as screwed up as their doctrine is. If God looks up the heart, who am I to question. A friend and I went to a charismatic church for a couple of years, and I thought the people were absolutely great. At least until a few of them found out that my friend and I had been in TWI. After all, there seemed to be endless debates at the trinity until I finally stopped attending. But, by and large, the people were tremendous believers. I live in the same city where there is a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center. I have met numerous people in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. Some people may yell blasphemy, but I think some of the most Godly people I have met are some people involved in AA and NA.

I spent 3 months in the 15th Corps. I was in Michael Harte's branch. Denice Eaves, Wendy Belge, Kerry Popp, and Sarah Wilkinson were a part of our Corps branch. I remember Doug and Kristin Hamilton who came to DC area after the Corps. Ann Rice (not the author) was there. My partner going to LEAD was Mary Jo Fernandez.