Biblefan Dave

I left without really much of a splash, at all. But I was in John Lynn's limb. There was a big limb meeting/yell fest that went on, which pretty much solidified my decision to leave. People (Corps grads) were yelling at and accusing JAL of all sorts of things. Most of the things said made no sense whatsoever. John simply told people why he had confronted the Trustees, where he thought they were wrong, and told people that he had received no response from the Trustees. Howard Allen was there. It was there after the meeting that Howard Allen told John that he was fired. I told to few other believers after that and talked about what I felt was the right thing to do. I felt that I could not, in all good conscience, continue to affiliate myself with TWI. It was kind of interesting in that a married couple across the street from us decided to stay in TWI. I still waved and said hello to them, but they ignored me. Oh, well, to each, his own. 2 years after I left, I temporarily went to a WOW fellowship. Yet, by that time, I was actually finding things in TWI harder to relate to. The WOW's and the people in their fellowship would be excited to hear someone teach. I was not at all interested in who was doing the teaching but what they were teaching. I had already written a lengthy letter to LCM reiterating a lot of the things John and the others had already said to him. While I was attending the WOW twig, the limb leader came by. The limb leader was Michael Harte, who I roomed with for 3 months at Emporia, five years earlier. Michael Harte asked if I was 100% committed to TWI. At that point, I was about 2% committed, if that much. I responded by asking Michael if TWI would be 100% committed to teaching people truth, not Way traditions, and if they would treat people correctly. Michael did not respond to that other than telling me I was not allowed to attend the twig anymore. In my mind, I had already left, so it wasn't a big deal.

I lived in Arlington, 81-82, right after my DC WOW year. I have lived in Maryland most of the time, but am originally from Oklahoma and may be moving back there within the next year.

RE: PERFECT LOVE. If perfect love casts out fear, then perfect love and fear can co-exist. But the perfect love would cast out the fear. For the casting out to work, both perfect love and fear would have to be present, at least temporarily. It doesn't say that perfect love replaces fear, but it casts it out. RE: LAW OF BELIEVING. For believing to be a law, it would have to work every time. Yet, in PFAL, there were conditions put on believing. In order to receive something from God, a person must believe without any doubt whatsoever. Thus, believing would not be a law but without doubt may be considered a law. Yet, Jesus told people they have not, because they ask amiss, or ask for the wrong reasons. Thus believing must be without doubt and for Godly purposes. Yet, other times in the Word, God simply provides for people, whether they believed for something to have or not. Thus, receiving can occur without believing. There are many records where people weren't expecting something to happen but it did anyway. Did Job really expect to get back everything he had lost, regarding family and possessions? He had just endured a long period of nearly-fatal illness, poverty, grief, and heartache. Did he believeto get everything. There is no indication that he did. Thus, believing does not necessarily equate to or automatically appropriate receiving. In order for believing to be a law, there would have to be a direct correlation between believing and receiving and there is not. Our believing is in God. We don't have to believe for red drapes. We simply trust God. The connection between believing and receiving is God, who is the provider. So, in other words, there is no law of believing, and believing does not necessarily equal receiving. If there is a LAW, it would be that God is always faithful to his promises. A law of faith might be a better description of it.

When I took the PFAL class, I heard VPW say that he was not perfect, and that not everything he said was God-breathed. Based upon that, I fully expected that there would be times when the research staff re-checked some teachings and would find problems with the teachings. I fully expected that leaders would be correcting some previous teachings. Now, to be completely honest, I can't recall a time when that was done, but I still expected it to happen, and certainly would not have been surprised by such an announcement. When VPW taught from Ephesian 6, he never mentioned the pieces of armor actually being athletic gear. LCM came up with that idea. Yet, LCM was a former college football player, thus, it was an agenda-based assumption rather than true biblical research that led to such a teaching. LCM never fully explained how he came to such a conclusion. All he ever said was that they held the ancient Olympics, and that the Greeks had once been in control of that section of the world when Jesus and the Apostles lived. So, in that instance, the teaching was changed from truth to error. They kinda went backwards on that one.

John L and the others in the 2/26/87 letter said nothing to indicate they thought that they ought to be the ones running TWI. The letter detailed their efforts to get the Trustees to get their act together. They wanted to Trustees to do what was right. John L already had a position of leadership at the time, as the DC Limb leader. Later, while heading up CES, John L stepped down as the head of CES while going through a rough time with a relationship. There are simply no facts to support a supposition that John L, Ralph D or the others were trying to take over. If we engage in rumors and speculation, aren't we committing the same acts that caused us to leave TWI anyway. I don't know about anyone else, but when I was in TWI, I expected leadership to find errors in some of their teachings. In PFAL, VPW said that not everything he said was God-breathed. So, I expected an "oops, we found out it really means this" correction to some of the teachings. I fully expected it. I did have questions about the tithe/abundant sharing things. I had questions about whether or not members of the body of Christ were actually supposed to do more than OT believers did. I did sometimes ask questions. The usual response was to read one of LCM's Way Magazine articles on abundant sharing. That led to more questions such as 15%, where did that come from. I find a difference between asking leaders questions, and pointing out an error in doctrine, practice, or decision. Way Corps were not often humble enough to apologize for their actions, insisting their actions were intended to help someone, regardless of how much it hurt someone.

TWI is a corporate entity, TWI never did anything to anyone. People in TWI did. TWI never taught me anything, nor ever told me to do anything, people in TWI did. Let me rephrase, some people did, not everyone. The problem in TWI was that a few men and women started corrupting the ideas and ideals of others. Physical details become more important than spiritual details. Obedience became more important than love. Dynamic teaching became more important than accurate teaching. When TWI as an organization started to fall apart in '87, I viewed it the same way I did as when bad things happened to me on the WOW field. I viewed it as just another bump in the road. I just thought that I would deal with the circumstances as best as I could. I hever thought this bump would be in the road for the next 18 years. Being the eternal optimist, I actually held hope for many years that somehow, some way, people in TWI would get their act together and bring things back to the Word. VPW had his faults and he made his mistakes. Adultery and plagarism are wrong, period. Yet, I saw a lot of healing and deliverance when I started with TWI in the mid-70's. If VPW was such a bad person, I don't think that would have happened. I harbor no resentments or bitterness about VPW. I know the law of believing is wrong and that the tithe is no longer applicable (calling it abundant sharing didn't change what was actually being enforced or mandated). No one is perfect, not even VPW. VPW didn't have the corner on true, but that's OK. I think LCM started with all the best intentions. But, what's the saying, sincerity is no guarantee for truth. LCM is still my brother in Christ. For all of his sinful adulterous affairs, his numerous erroneous teachings, his inept managerial skills, his inept pastoral skills, and his emotional and verbal abuse of God's people, he is still a brother in Christ. I am not anti-LCM, I am anti-error. I am not anti-TWI, I am anti-error. Yet, I know no man is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. That's no excuse for sin and error, but it's God's view of human nature. That's why God that that love covers a multitude of sins. I did not see the same healing and deliverance under LCM's charge that I did when VPW was there. That's not idolization, it's just what I observed. I harbor no bitterness or resentment toward LCM. I do feel sorrow for everyone that was hurt by LCM. Some people are still extremely bitter about what happened with TWI. LCM didn't betray me, he betrayed God. He failed to uphold the responsibilities of ministering to God's people. He failed miserably. Yet, he is still my brother in Christ. So, I can forgive him for any hurt that I felt in the past.

It seems that some people get caught in who said what. It isn't who said something, it is does that which they said agree with the Word. I left TWI in '87. I wouldn't say that I went back to TWI in '89, but I did go to a WOW family's fellowship that year for a few months. The people in that fellowship were all giddy to hear a particular speaker teach. I was of the attitude that the speaker wasn't important, but that which was being spoken was. I could not share in their excitement. We cannot rationally dismiss something automatically that VPW said, nor automatically accept it, either. The same holds true for LCM, yes, even him. It isn't who said it, it is what is being said. VPW did a very thorough job of outlining the 4 crucified. He laid out the scriptures in relation to time and place. He showed how the soldiers how to the first one crucified with Christ, and then came to the second one, before getting to Jesus. The 4 crucified makes a lot more sense than the traditional idea. When it came to tithing, VPW did not do such a good job. The tithe is mentioned in Malachi. That is Old Testament, in the Law Administration. The tithe was one tenth of one's firstfruits and one seventh of one's time. No special penalty was given for one's failure to tithe, other than the penalty for disobeying the law. Corinthians, in the administration of grace, mentions no percentages whatsoever. Corinthians also indicates that people are to give of their abundance. Abundance is a lot different than firstfruits. No penalty or punishment is outlined for the failure to give. Law-10% firstfruits, Grace-abundance. No penalties, only benefits in grace administration. In Corinthians, a person gives as the purpose in their hearts to give. God loves a cheerful giver. It's not obligation, it's a desire to give, in this administration. Now what about VPW's statement that we in this administration should do more than those under the law. Where in the Bible did it ever say that we under grace should do more than those under law? No where. There were over 800 OT laws, yet Jesus summed up all the law in 2 commandments, to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind, and strength; and to love one's neighbor as oneself. From over 800 to only 2 sounds to me like God intended for us to do a lot less than those under the law. VPW added to the Word but saying that we should do more. LCM took that unbiblical statement and turned it into a law that people must absolutely give out of obligation, a minimum of 15% of total income, not just firstfruits, but total income. LCM added a penalty not mentioned in the Bible, of God not spitting in our direction. VPW taught 4 crucified correctly. We can verify it from the Word if we have an open heart to the Word. Yet, he completely screwed up the tithing/abundant sharing topic. He did exactly what he told us in PFAL not to do as far as adding words to the Word, omitting words from, or changing words in the Word. So, the teacher doesn't matter, the teaching matters. Hey, if Ken Copeland, Jimmy Swaggart, Billy Graham, Kenneth Hagin, or Charles Colson teaches something and it agrees with the Word, then the teaching is good. People tend to be swayed by the charisma of the teacher, rather than paying attention to what is being said. David

I don't know about this topic. I am not sure it's "best". So, just go read the Word, renew your minds, give til it feels good, SIT much, speak the Word, find your apartment with the red drapes, and get your priorities right. David

Naw, THey [baptists} just say they are all going to hell. You have to come to Anchorage and see the Easter Pagent put on by one of the local Baptist churches. The final scene shows the second coming of Jesus Christ all the baptists are saved while RC priests and nuns pled ineffectually as they are denied heaven. I think almost any group can be considered a cult. But in the Bible, it's always the bad guys calling the good guys heretics, or accusing Paul of being the ringleader of a sect, or branding Jesus as a heretic. There are lots of the anti-cult people that consider Amway and Alcoholics Anonymous as cults. Anytime you can find extremely committed people, it must be a cult. Yet, I live in a city where they have a Drug and Alcohol Rehab center. I have met lots of people involved in various 12 step programs. Yes, there are people in AA, NA, CDA, etc that are very committed, but these people have changed their lives because of the programs they are involved in. I can't fault something that brings good to people's lives. David Specters of TWI

I think we should clarify things a little bit. Yes VPW used the words "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ". Did he mean that Christ was absent? I don't think so. When he taught 4 crucified, the day Christ died, the mystery, etc. VPW taught a lot about Jesus Christ. In fact, I personally think it was brilliant the way he taught people about Jesus Christ without preaching at people. Yet, the absent Christ! I certainly don't think VPW thought Christ was absent, only that he was not physically present on earth. Our physical relation to God and Jesus Christ was this Bible which we could touch, hold, and read. I do believe that most TWI members (yes, I said members) believed very, very strongly in Jesus Christ during the 60's and 70's. In the early '80's, knowledge became preeminent over one's relationship with their lord and savior. For some reason, people started to literalize the mentioning of the absent Christ as meaning knowledge of the Word is the priority. I personally never believed that, but it seems some did. Part of it was the whole us-vs-them thing against the churches. The churches talked about Jesus a lot, and VPW and LCM didn't want TWI to be like the churches, so people tried to be Christian, yet not act like, look like, or sound like the churchers. In trying to be un-like the churches, many TWI members went too far in the opposite direction. I was a reaction to circumstances rather than a belief in the truth.

If there was anything that irked me about TWI, it was the inability to discuss things with leaders. VPW questioned his leadership in the Reformed Church. TWI upheld Martin Luther as a great man of God in the past, and Luther's fame came from questioning his leadership. Moses questioned God when God was trying to get Moses to help the Hebrews gets out of Egypt. Yet TWI seemed to have this commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Question Leadership". John L, John S, Robert B, Ralph D and others got fired for questioning leadership when that leadership was wrong. LCM pulled that 15% figure out of his head (could have been some other body part). LCM pulled that idea that God would not even spit in a person's direction unless they gave the magical, mysterious amount of no less than 15% of their total income. Corinthians says abundance without a percentage, LCM said 15% of total income. Somebody's got to be a liar.

As far as being born of God or born of the devil. There is most certainly a devil. There is most certainly devil spirits. The Gospels, Acts, and Romans talk about people being born again of God, spirit created within. It is a literal spiritual being for someone who existed only as body and soul. It is not a figure of speech, it is a literal creation of spirit within. That is becoming a child or son of God. That parallels to Jesus being God's firstborn son. So, logically, when the Word talks about being a child of darkness, what indication is there that it is not just as literal as becoming a son of God. God would have to indicate in his Word why there being a son of God would be literally true, and becoming a child of the devil would be figurive. But he never does. A person of body and soul is missing a piece or part of his total makeup. The completing piece is spirit, whether it is from God or the devil.

Evan, I didn't say that my focus was solely on doctrines. My point is that a cult is simply a group that is either too small or has too little political influence to demand acceptance. Catholicism is radically different than the totally of Baptist Congregations, yet one doesn't often hear Baptists referring to Catholicism as a cult, nor vice versa. Yet, their doctrines are vastly different. The Assemblies of God doctrines are quite a bit different than Presbyterians. Catholicism is accepted, right or wrong. Baptists are accepted, right or wrong. Assemblies of God are accepted, right or wrong. Presbyterians are accepted, right or wrong. What makes them right or wrong? All of them talk about Jesus, don't they? If all that matter was a focus on Jesus, then wouldn't it be one happy,wonderful, world! How do we determine what's right or wrong with these groups? Group affiliation isn't the issue, it's what they teach. In other words, DOCTRINE! The Word says that the truth shall set us free, not group affiliation. If we believe truth, it doesn't matter whether people accept our group or not, but our relationship is with God and his son, Jesus Christ. There are plenty of people that focus on Jesus, yet blow up abortion clinics. There are plenty of people that focus on Jesus, yet deliberate twist others words to fit a preset agenda. There are plenty of people that focus on Jesus, yet engage in unbiblical condemnation of others. The Word makes known Christ. If God didn't think his Word was important, he would not have repeatedly stressed in his Word how important it was. What made TWI wrong was wrong doctrine and sinful practices, someone one can also find in any denomination. Group affiliation has no relevance, God's truth does.

In my post-TWI days, I went to a charismatic church in 1990-92. The church had their regular Sunday am service, but they also had "Caregroups" where people in the Singles group met weekly in people's homes. These caregroups were usually around 10 to 20 people. The groups reminded me a lot of Twig fellowships, or whatever TWI calls them now. On a different note, I boarded the subway this past May. A couple of stops later, an Oriental gentleman gets on the train, stands in the middle of the train, opens up a Bible, and starts to sing "In the Garden" which brought back a lot of TWI memories. I've been in different groups where we had to put out chairs, but we never used a string to perfectly align them.

I would just like to know where all of this making out was taking place, because I never got a chance to participate when I was in TWI. Either I wasn't BELIEVING enough, I didn't follow my FIRST THOUGHT, but I seemed to have missed out on the Waylays.

Jesus Christ is the head of the body of Christ, so headquarters would be located at the right hand of God. Do not pass Highway 29, do not pass Wierwille Road, go directly to the right hand of God. Later

I was one of the Minnesota Harvesters in '76. I can't say I miss Minnesota. Too cold, too Lutheran, just too much.

There are actually many things that TWI taught that I still believe How many still believe the following: 1: There were "four" others crucified with Christ. Yes 2: Peter denied Jesus "Six" times. Yes 3: The devil can really "get people born again" of him (seed of the serpent). Yes 4. That Christians, with holy spirit within, can get possessed and taken over by devil spirits, including taking over the holy spirit within. Yes I haven't been involved with TWI for 17 years now. As bad as TWI has been, especially under the inept leadership of LCM, I still don't consider TWI a cult. First of all, I don't focus on group, but rather doctrines. Are the Moonies a cult? Don't know, don't care. Are the Hare Krishnas a cult? Don't know, don't care. I am more concerned about ferreting the truth about different doctrines rather than dismissing or condemning an entire group or organization. There are still people on TWI that love God and hunger for God's truths. I am reasonable certain there are people in the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas that love God and hunger to know God better. The cult label was used in the Bible by the bad guys trying to discredit the good guys. Group labels don't concern me, truth does. Thus, I never considered TWI a cult, thus had no motivation to completely renounce everything they taught. Love ya, Dave

I don't know if you would call it a flashback. But, I live in Maryland, near Washington, DC. I got on the DC subway, Metro, one day headed toward downtown DC. A few stops after I got on, an Oriental gentleman got around the train car. I opened up his Bible and began to sing "In The Garden". That brought back all kinds of memories from my Way days. I actually wanted to talk with him, but he got off at the next station after he had finished singing. In days past, I would not have even considered talking to him, but I would have presumed him to be denominational person full of error. I have gone to different functions where women or other important people walked in, and no one stood up. I always try to stand up when greeting or shaking hands with someone, regardless of who they are. But that's just me.