oenophile

good for you Robin... did he respond?

Not yet, Tom.

Dan Shaughnessy a sports writer for the Boston Globe referred to Carolina Hurricanes fans as "Goobers" during the series. In a video shot in front of an empty Boston rink after the stunning Bruin loss in overtime, Shaughnessy agains refers to Caniacs as the "fandom of Goobers."

I immediately e-mailed Shaughnessy what I thought would be the fitting headline for his next day column.

'Canes Win, Goobers Celebrate

Shaughnessy Sulks, Sucks

wimminz almost always will go for the guy in the band. i'm just happy my screen name doesn't yield itself easily to athletic supporter.

Happy belated ones from me Mstar.

I went into a bar with this little man sitting on my shoulder. The bartender trying his best to play it cool doesn't say anything. I order my pint but when I reach for it the little man runs down my shoulder and knocks my beer over. So I order another one. The same thing happens. The little man runs down and swats it over. Again, I order another one. By this time the bartender is shaking his head and inquires, "Ok, it's your money but isn't that little guy going to just knock it over? "Yeah, youre probably right.", I moan. "How'd he get up there?", he asks.

"Well you see, I was walking down the beach last week and I spied this shiny metal thing sticking out of the sand." So I dug it up and brushed it off and *POOF* a genie appears. "Three wishes?", I ask. "Yup." says the genie."

Ok, the first thing I ask for is a million dollars? The bank calls me immediately on my cell phone telling me that they don't understand it but a million just popped in my account out of nowhere. So, I look at the genie and demand, "A gorgeous woman to be my wife. *POOF* she appears out of nowhere. Now thinking to myself, "What could possibly complete the picture, I'm rich and going to be married to a real hottie. Giving no second thought, "A 12 inch pr*#k, my dear Genie!" *POOF*

"That's how this little guy got on my shoulder.", I say tearfully.

Only a 9 Socks?

OK, Socksness, see what you went and did. By participating in this thread, you made the following ad appear at the bottom of the page: "Womens Support Socks." That phrase leaves a lot to be desired, grammatically speaking, but yeah, I'd say we womens support Socks...or we at least like him a lot.

Back on topic:

Oeno, I know you already apologized to Socks for the tone of the following post, but because I find myself nodding in agreement with pretty much everything he said, I want to respond to what you said, without reacting to the tone of it.

QUOTE (oenophile @ May 12 2009, 11:02 PM) To anyone who thinks that TWI didn't manipulate people to be their lackies, please remember denial is not a river in Egypt.

IMO, to accuse anyone who expresses that they had any kind of positive experience in twi of being in denial is very similar to demanding proof of anyone who describes a negative experience in twi. We experienced what we experienced, saw what we saw, learned what we learned, put up with what we put up with, ad infinitum. So unless someone is slobbering all over a VPW statuette (I still can't believe they made those things!) and refusing to recognize that anything bad ever happened in twi, I don't think denial is a fair assessment of someone else's views.

Manipulation exists everywhere. Flip on the tube and someone is manipulating you to buy this or that. However, the manipulation that happened in TWI flowed from the notion that it implanted in its adherents that it was the only place that one could expect to be in true fellowship with God. Inside you had divine protection, outside as someone mentioned earlier...oblivion. I do not think I need to cite examples. Instead, I will refer anyone interested to the My Story forum here where one can read oneself. I will stand by my statement if anyone doesn't think that happened in TWI, then that person is in woeful denial.

Do you not remember the group pressure to take the next class, go to the big area function, skip studying for the big exam you had the next day to go to the branch meeting?

Yes, I do, but I didn't care. I took classes if and when I wanted to take them, and for the most part I wanted to because I enjoyed them (with the exception of repeating them). I went to functions when I wanted to go and when I didn't, I didn't. I usually wanted to go to fellowships, but when I didn't want to go, I didn't go.

Linda, I consider you a dear friend even though we have never met face to face. Hopefully, soon we will. I respect you for your smarts and, at least from my perspective, your strong independent streak. I would suspect someone like yourself wouldn't feel the pressure and the gnawing guilt that a lot of us "weaker vessels" felt.

So why did I react the way I did to twi's pressures and demands, and why did others react differently? I think maybe it's largely because of who we were going in. I think those of us who got into twi on our own (as opposed to being raised in it...that might be a whole 'nother story) were pretty much who we were going to be by the time we got there, and we responded accordingly. Exactly.

Do you not remember the pressure that you felt under at the ROA to put your life on hold and go WOW which means, by the way, you don't get to see your family during the holidays, go to your mom's graduation when she received her Master's degree with cum laude honors or go to your brothers wedding?

I saw all the "rah, rah, go WOW hooplah," but I didn't feel pressured by it. I figured it was my life and I knew what was best for my child and me. I never went WOW until my interim year in the Corps, but that was different. I knew going in I'd be assigned somewhere that year, so for me it wasn't a matter of pressure but part of a commitment I'd made and wanted to keep.

I went WOW when I thought it was right for me and I made the decision privately and alone without the needling . No real regrets there. However, there were other times that I was told that I made a gross spiritual error by not participating in this or that.

Do you not remember the cold looks (or perhaps that hot encounter you had with some pea brained leader) you got if you decided that the "next thing" wasn't right for you?

This is another factor in the whole "comparing twi experiences" thing. A lot depended on who your "leaders" were. For the most part, when I was your basic twig goer and twig leader (ahem, coordinator), I had loving, wonderful people as leadership. There were a couple of pea brains mixed in there, but I didn't give them much thought except to mentally note that they were immature or arrogant or whatever. I have to say, though, I encountered people like that throughout my life, everywhere I went, so I wasn't too surprised to run into them in twi.

So, the expression "tripped out" has no meaning to you. Please forgive my indulging in a rhetorical question like that but it goes to highlight the validation subtlties that existed to enforce conformity.

Since this thread is about soul, don't you remember being taught that is not your own anyway? Don't you know you were bought with a price and now you owe it to Der Vey because Der Vey taught you Der Wort. (Actually, now I have come to like wort since I started homebrewing.) Give me an effin break! You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult.

Funny how different our perspectives are. To me "you are not your own, you are bought with a price," didn't say to me I couldn't be my own self. It simply meant to me, as a Christian, my proper response to the sacrifice God made for me was to take care of myself, to value myself, and to value others, as well. I still feel that way today.

As for looking back with "rose-colored glasses," I don't. I do remember the good times as good and the bad times as bad, just as I view any period in my life. I will not discard everything I learned or experienced in twi just because others feel that none of it was of value, any more than I will ignore the horrible things that happened to some people in twi just because others would like to pretend they never happened.

I agree. I think you clearly see your experiences for what they were. By the way, I believe that this finally your year to celebrate with LeBron and the Cavs.

I've always allowed for that, since Day 2, Oeno. That's assumed. And it forms the basis for my post.

GS gets a lot of "agree to disagree" going on. That's practical. But I don't think it answers the "real" questions and the topic of this thread actually addresses them IMO. :)

:blink:

What are the "real questions" of this thread in your opinion?

I only speak for myself. That's all I do. There are others that I would offer an educated opinion on and be very close based on what I know. But other than that, it's me O Lord. So when you say "rose colored" myopia, there's only one way to apply that - to me. I don't know about the rest of you weirdos.

I am not sure what you are alluding to here. Please note that I apologized for the "rose colored glasses" and shrill intonation of my earlier post publicly. I don't do grovel. By the way, thank you if you are including me in the wierdos. I take pride in being a wierdo. After all, wierdo mutants are the leading edge of evolution in every species.

My observations on the rest of this stuff lead me to certain conclusions, and I'm pret-ty sure I'm correct. Correct about what? No doubts at all? But where the rubber meets the road is in how each person is able to work it all out for themselves and more forward. So it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong or if anyone else agrees or disagrees - agreement isn't the issue, understanding and application is. True that.

I'm not offering my own conclusions here, there's no whole enchilada for everyone on GS or the world of ex-Wayfer weirdness forthcoming from me. I fully believe that the same conclusions will however reveal and render themselves in each person and it has nothing to do with what specifically "happened" to each person and their own experience. Which conclusions are you talking about?

Cheese, enchiladas - I'm hungry now. Enjoy.

Someone asked about the origins of the word hades. In Homer's Odyssey, Hades is the brother of Zeus and god of the underworld or realm of the dead. In later Greek writings hades refers to his kingdom.

I think Greek has clarified his position, Garth. Confession is good for the soul.

I wouldn't consider it a celebration of death, or even that of one individual as such..

maybe a time of change, which many were unprepared for..

I remember a friend saying something like he couldn't die.. renewed mind and all..

I wonder how my friend feels now..

When I leave this existence.. I hope they have a party..

Not that I'd give them a good reason for it..

If we have a party at your shedding of your mortal coil. (Don't you just love that Billy Shakespeare euphemism.) We would not be celebrating your death but rather your life. Please continue to give us plenty of reasons to do so.

When I was in the Way and all of the years I worked there for them and with the people I knew, I was pretty much the same. My personal introduction to the bible was through many of the people who, with me, later joined up with the Way, PFAL, and all of that. I'll die with a stake in my heart before I sell those people and the years of loving life we shared, short. That ain't gonna happen.

I was in the program because I was asked to go into it and I wanted to be there so I went, and stayed. Over the years - then as now - I did things at the direction of others but I never did anything I felt was wrong or harmful because I was forced to.

Socks,

Like you, I also knew good, loving and decent people while in the Way. Yet, these good people were only a part of my total Way experience. I also encountered people who were their antithesis. Yet, as with the good people, they were only a part of my total Way experience. I suppose that my questions to you are, were the good people and the good things you learned representative of your total Way experience and, if so, will you allow that some, indeed most, had a different experience than you?

Perhaps soup offers the appropriate metaphor to emphasize my point. Let's say there are things that I really like in the soup such as corn, carrots, potatoes and peas. However, there is one thing in the soup that has a flavor and aroma so repugnant and pervasive, say limberger for instance, that it spoils my enjoyment of the corn, carrots and potatoes and peas. For me and for most here I suspect the intimidation, the intense pressure to conform, the wedges driven between us and our families, the mickey mouse rules, the "let it be all Way all the time" expectations placed on us, the believer - unbeliever dichotomy together make a really ripe limberger.

*I chose limberger because I couldn't think of much that I don't like that is usually found in soup. Feel free make your own rancid substitution.

Peace.

An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman enter a bar and each order a pint. Upon being served a fly lands in each gentleman's beer. The Englishman turns up his nose and requests another pint from the bartender. The Irishman looks at the fly in his glass and simply picks it out and tosses it over his shoulder and continues to enjoy his beer. The Scotsman picks the fly out his beer, holds it over the glass and demands, "OK, spit it out you little bastard."

Has anybody ever considered that date for a wienie roast or gs get together?

Weenie roast sounds good. Prefer another day though. Rather not celebrate anyone's death. Even someone like Mr. Wierwille.

"You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult."

If you're referring to my references, Oeno, that's not what I'm doing. You can however give me an effin' break if you are and we can definitely discuss it directly and further, here.

Socks,

I am sure you are a great guy and I know you are a good musician. Forgive my momentary indulgence in hyperbole as well as the rather shrill intonation of my post. Charge that to the rather rare foul mood I found myself in last night after a long, hard day rather to any negative personal feelings that you might imagine that I harbor toward you. Please understand that there are none.

Nonetheless, some of your posts were on my mind as I was cranking out my frustrations. I will be more than happy to discuss them here, openly and in a civilized manner.

Peace.

I didn't say that adherents of Islam (or any other belief system differing from mine) are misguided. I said that adherents of Islam that strap a bomb to their waste and blow up themselves (including as many *infidels*) or fly hijacked airliners into tall buildings are misguided.

Big difference, no?

No, actually not such a big difference. Mr. Pmosh simply asked you do you not believe that Muslims are human. You responded by the following:

Is that really what you got from what I said, or are you trying to get a rise? Of course they're humans, and yes, I see them as such. Misguided, of course, but humans nonetheless. You agree, don't you, that they are misguided?

You made no distinction between Muslims and terrorists at that time.

Jeff, you should have reminded your sociopath that he is getting much more from you than what he is paying you, which was most likely nothing.

"Every form of refuge has its price."

The Eagles

To anyone who thinks that TWI didn't manipulate people to be their lackies, please remember denial is not a river in Egypt.

Do you not remember the group pressure to take the next class, go to the big area function, skip studying for the big exam you had the next day to go to the branch meeting? Do you not remember the pressure that you felt under at the ROA to put your life on hold and go WOW which means, by the way, you don't get to see your family during the holidays, go to your mom's graduation when she received her Master's degree with cum laude honors or go to your brothers wedding? Do you not remember the cold looks (or perhaps that hot encounter you had with some pea brained leader) you got if you decided that the "next thing" wasn't right for you?

Since this thread is about soul, don't you remember being taught that is not your own anyway? Don't you know you were bought with a price and now you owe it to Der Vey because Der Vey taught you Der Wort. (Actually, now I have come to like wort since I started homebrewing.) Give me an effin break! You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult.

Do you not remember how we were to hold in high and holy esteem a man that later we learned to be a drunken, lecherous plagarist as the Man of God For Our Day and Time? Did I learn some useful things in PFAL? Yes I did but I paid to take the damn thing didn't I? And for that I owed them my life? Give me an effin break. By the way, I also learned some crap too.

Do you not remember being told over and over that there are no grey areas only black and white when it comes to Der Wort? Ofcourse, the implication is you are either with us all the way or you might as well be working for the debbil. That is how all cults operate and many of us saw it happening to us but for some reason we just couldn't say the Emperor has no clothes until it became obvious the Emperor not only had no royal vestiments but he was also butt naked.

TWI is, was and will always be a godamned cult and did/does what all cults do which is to love bomb, indoctrinate, use group pressure to force conformity and redirect the will.

Give me an effin break!

The Authentic Self

Where do you find self? Is it to be found in the body? At this very moment there are millions of cells dying in your body which are being replaced by new ones. The body you inhabited a year ago is not the body you inhabit now. Yet "you" go on.

Do you find self (soul) in your breath? Breathing is merely an exchange of gases. You take in oxygen and release CO2. Is soul to be found in the oxygen you take in or the CO2 you release?

Is soul to be found in the mind? Is soul to be found somewhere in the millions of synapses in the brain or is it the electrical current that flows through the brain and out to various nerve endings in the body and back? Is soul found in the provisional blackboard of your mind where you record your experiences?

Or is soul something larger than ourselves? Is soul every life on the planet, every atom of cosmic matter in the universe, every physical law of which we individually are merely a cell?

Could soul be no soul? Could mind be no mind? Could it be that when we extinguish the notion of our separate souls, we finally wake up to life?

If you're Christian. In my case, I'm effin for NULL.

Like you need an excuse to be effin?

I remember her from my ECU days. She was a good friend. I remember that she always had an infectious bubbly personality that was sure lift your mood even when you were in the most dismal of moods. She was also very smart. I think she graduated with a damn near perfect G.P.A., a rarity amongst us wayfers at ECU. From reading her obit, I am happy to see that she lived her life to the hilt. I would have expected no less of her. I can hardly believe she is gone. I was thinking of her not so long ago. It is hard to take this in.

Thank you excath for sharing this.

We better to get busy effin for Jesus!!!

Happy Mother's day to all the moms.

And to all you mothers as well.