geisha779

. . . . . .

Interesting point: In CES (I refuse to dignify their later irrelevant metamorpheses), they taught that an interpretation should take the form of prayer and praise, not exhortation and comfort, and voila! Just like that, their interpretations changed to conform to their new doctrine. What this tells me? I'm not the only one who made it up, who lied to gain the favor of the group.

Wherever I went in TWI, prophecy and interpretations were always sprinkled with plenty of thee, thou, shalt, and nay's. It was as if God had never heard our modern vernacular, and his "voice" was always with an emphasis on the King's English. Convenient though, as we were restricted to the KJV bible.

Funny how that worked out.

I understand what you are saying. It's a natural line of logic from the admission of faking it. Next, you question whether you are unique - is it REALLY available to Christians or not. Next, you tie in the false teacher input wondering whether because VP was an evil guy that whether he introduced devil spirits into our lives by his false teachings.

Yeah, that is not actually what I was thinking. I don't often think in terms of devil spirits. "Another"....meaning something other than the Holy Spirit. false, fake, not real. There isn't actually another Jesus or another gospel. There is the real and the counterfeit. Genuine vs counterfeit was more my thought.

I really do believe the biblical accounts of SIT. I do believe that Christians did SIT. I question whether we still need to and if modern tongues is the same thing. As you may have gathered, I don't think so. No devil spirits....I promise. Seeing that written I was taken aback.

So one of the underlying questions is "how much can God protect someone in a false ministry?" I'm sure everyone on this forum has had positive Christian experiences while in TWI. (Yes, I know many may question whether the experiences were genuinely Christian or not). "Can God have protected our hearts while experiencing the BS of TWI so that we could heal?" Quite obviously there is a lot of emotional damage from how TWI operates. So in that respect yes the false teachings have taken their toll. But without admitting the positive experiences as being from God's influence, how to reconcile them? Some of it goes right down to what you believe about God? Is He good always? Is He powerful enough to protect us even under false teachers influence?

I didn't. Well, let me rephrase that. I did meet Christians in TWI, I am sure of that, but, they were every bit as confused as I was and promoting the same thing. There were very few exceptions. A genuine Christian experience to me would be a full sharing of a like faith in the biblical Jesus. I never saw that.

God is always good, but my heart in TWI was not a new heart. I was unregenerate. So, in that regard, like anyone else who eventually comes to Christ.....God was with me. I had to be delivered from the carnival that was TWI. I am genuinely confused by what you mean by protecting me. I am not being obtuse, but I was in full on committed to TWI, PFAL, and VP. I really believed that theology. God didn't shield me, He has delivered me.

Agree VP was a false teacher, and TWI was/is a cult. PFAL and "word of faith" theology? I don't even know what that is. I mean Norman Vincent Peale wrote "The Power of Positive Thinking", and wrote for many mainstream Christian magazines in addition to his books. Is he based in the occult?

Do you remember VP mentioning E.W. Kenyon? He is considered the father of the Word of Faith movement. Word of Faith is similar to name and claim it....believing equals receiving....and the prosperity gospel..... along with a whole host of other things incorporated into PFAL. You should check out the Word of Faith movement. You will recognize much of it. If you follow Kenyon back you will see where it comes from. Interesting stuff.

I certainly always thought VP's "bodybuilder" analogies with SIT were a little far-fetched. I didn't buy that. I also didn't buy that it's your only "proof" of eternal life. If that's all you need then what about faith? I did appreciate that at least PFAL listed all the verses related to SIT in any conceivable fashion. That was so much more than any denominational minister ever did for me, and I asked them. However, the next step of leaping to logical conclusions I felt was interspersed in the teachings. For myself, since SIT was more naturally occurring as part of my prayer life since a teen, it was easy just to keep praying and kind of hold the BS in abeyance.

If that is what you do and you are at peace with it.....I certainly have no issues with your private prayer life. How could I? I may strongly disagree that SIT is for private prayer, but I could be wrong. Either way, I really don't think it is a defining doctrine.

Sudo's "seemed like a good idea at the time" I can relate to. I'm so embarrassed over all those "excellor" sessions I led, having people start with the letter "C" then fabricate the tongue language (mostly). And all the extemporaneous BS I presented similarly in that light - the "bodybuilder" analogy even though I didn't fully agree with it, the "building fluency" lines of BS. Actually it wasn't a good idea at the time - it was BS. I was just blind to it.

I am right there with you....I ran them too. You were probably far nicer about it than me. I am not proud of what or who I became in TWI. Thank goodness God is able to deliver us.

I guess picking up the pieces is never easy. That's why we need to talk to each other.

So, either you can produce someone who is adept in these languages and study a sampling of those who speak in tongues world wide or leave me to my opinion. I have read nothing that is convincing either way in this entire thread, beyond some faked it and readily admit it.

Hey, I am baking apple bread today. If I can fit it in I will try. It might have to get in line behind laundry though and I am with Raf on the burden of proof. If we wanted to get nit picky.... it really is those who make claims that have the burden to prove them, but I am truly not that invested. I have a little peace about this issue and I am glad. I don't want to be that too nit picky person and really... I applaud your willingness to consider things outside your comfort zone. Lord knows I don't like to. . . . and I respect those who do it with integrity. That means I respect your attitude and contribution to this thread and I admire your considered and cautious approach.

I thought Steve was bringing up I Cor. 13:1. And noting that the love in your heart is what's important, not the tongue.

What he said was tongues become free vocalization without love. Which is what I took exception to.....because that would mean a real known language becomes gibberish without the right attitude. I really don't think that is what Paul is saying at all. They are two different things.

Well, certainly you could say what you did and those your were involved with seem to fit the same as your experience - that SIT as practiced by TWI is BS.

However, what we did is something you can't really verify since there are thousands of people involved that spanned multiple decades. I can say that what I do when SIT does sound as though it has structure and I did not fake it. Unless one can fake it unknowingly. But then it should sound like jibberish.

I think the topic is at an impasse. It serves well to have people come out and say they faked it. I can say before God I never did. Of all the known languages, and all the people that came and went, it's an unproveable situation. To cast others in light of your own experiences isn't really cool either. Unless you can say for sure everyone faked it as well. But then that would take proof. So it is with so many things of God. Proof can be difficult to produce while faith is required.

I guess that defines my position. I trust God, I have faith. Even though I may be somewhat of a train wreck when it comes to Christianity.

But if SIT has a purpose, then it wouldn't be a language no one understood or some ancient language from the past. When you factor in its purpose, a sign for unbelievers, it has to be a recognized language or one that can be interpreted.Who says the gift of interpretation is some magical gift? I think it is more people who are there and can interpret.

Perhaps this has been covered, but I am not going through 33 pages on a search.

Acts has them speaking in people's native language on Pentecost, but does not say this happened elsewhere, though they did speak in tongues as recorded. So we can say that what they did on Pentecost was known languages of men. We don't know if what they did elsewhere when SIT was understood by those present or not. Please correct me where I am wrong as I am going from memory here.

But if I am correct, then you could only reasonably say that what we did was/is not what they did in Acts on the day of Pentecost.

Forgive me if I am being way-brained here. TWI did teach that Pentecost was unique in that those present understood and many languages were represented.

There is a good case to be made for the continuity of tongues throughout the accounts in Acts. People understood that they were exalting God in Cornelius' house, and Peter said they received the gift in the same way. If it had varied he might have mentioned that. There are a few good articles posted in the doctrinal section in the SIT reading room thread. If you dare venture down there. :)

Just as an aside.....I read about receiving another spirit concerning tongues from John Juedes....he might be a good person to ask about those verses and if they can be related to TWI and tongues.

Well, I like Steve's post because it does make a difference your attitude when praying. Cor. does say you become a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal.

And I know this may not be popular on this thread, but there is a real possibility that what you (and Raf, and others) did in TWI regarding this topic is different than what others did.

We haven't addressed that on this thread yet.

To me that is logically more reasonable of an explanation than trying to convince me that I was praying to God and somehow by mistake "another spirit" answered my prayer. Or that I was praying to God and when receiving something instead it was just me making it up on my own for whatever reason. That logic sounds like something atheists would come up with.

If you want to believe what you are doing is different. Believe it. It is obviously somehow important to your faith....so I don't mind what you do. It is not a make or break doctrine in my estimation.

I wasn't trying to convince you that you were praying to God and somehow by mistake "another spirit" answered your prayer. I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. I said I wasn't completely convinced myself. Now, not being completely convinced myself, am I going to try and convince you? Context....why is that so difficult a concept? Is that what Paul was saying when he spoke of another spirit....they were praying to God and another spirit mistakenly intervened? No.

When you look at those verses in light of their context, it is not such a far fetched concept..... as Paul is speaking in the context of false teachers who infiltrated the church and were preaching another Jesus, another gospel, and people were easily and willingly receiving another spirit. As mentioned earlier.....false teachers teach false doctrine. No? They preach another Jesus and they preach another gospel. One that enslaves.

You yourself have called VP a false teacher. It was a cult not a nice Christian organization. PFAL is based in word of faith theology which has its roots in the occult. VP used exploiting and subtle persuasion techniques to convince us, sometimes against our better judgement. All that SIT we were doing.....was it self edifying and building up our inner man....a real phenomenon from God and proof of eternal life? Or was it a way to get us to shut off our critical thinking skills and zone out?

Believe whatever you like. You have my permission to SIT. Don't need it? No? Than why does it bother you so much that I don't believe it is real?

Actually, I like Sudo's answer the best. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

E - eye drops out of head ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Yeah, we get it....he was not a good guy....but really? We have to mock his cancer and eye? Rejoicing in someone else suffering, no matter how bad they were, makes me queasy.

My "knowing" would have inflated me like a Macy's Thanksgiving Day balloon if I thought I could cram the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all things that in them are, the Father of Jesus Christ, the Raiser from the dead, into a stuffy little box I had made.

Love,

Steve

Well Steve, knowing God has just the opposite effect...it does not inflate us....it humbles us. That is what keeps us grounded from flights of fancy and random musings about the Almighty. There is a difference between caging God in and believing every voice we hear could be from God because we can't cage Him in.

Jesus came to declare God....to make Him known.

Can you name one immutable truth about God? Can you name two? I bet you can. I bet if we really thought about it we could name many. Is that boxing God in? He doesn't change does He? Immutability is what sets Him apart....isn't it? If He changed He wouldn't be God. He doesn't need to change He is perfect.

If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing as he needs to know it. If he loves God, then he is known by God.

Love,

Steve

But, the people who know their God shall be strong and do exploits.

Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

That I may know him and the power of his resurrection........

This is fun! I have a hundred more!

Steve, I love you, I really do and I am sure you have a really great point, but I am not sure what it is. Don't you think that in order to love God, we must know Him?

With God all things are possible....that is in the context of what? Salvation? Yes? Does that mean God will do anything? No. There are certain things we should know about God, so that we don't get tricked. Just because all things are possible with God....should we assume God will do something opposed to His Holy nature....that he ever could? No. Even the verse you posted is in the context of discerning!

So while I agree that it is foolish to cage God in.... it is wise to know the Lord our God so that we can love and worship Him as we should. :)

Please carry on, I am sure you have a point to make and I don't want to be too rude. . . .

I have come to think of myself as a free-range baptist. I believe in baptism. I don't believe in cages.

If somebody says he knows what God can or cannot do, or what God will or will not do, or who is or who is not "going to Hell", then it tells me that person is in a cage.

People unwittingly get into cages when they try to put God in a cage. It doesn't work that way. People who try to put God in a cage wind up putting themselves in cages, instead.

Love,

Steve

We should at the least know what His character and nature is so when we are told something opposed to it.....we can recognize it. That comes in handy btw, when approached by cults looking to recruit new members. Call me caged, but I do think God's attributes and nature are shared so that we may know Him. I wonder why He bothered to tell us about salvation and hell if it is not to know?

Oddly enough, I am caged enough to know God holds me responsible for what I believe and say.

Needless to say I have not forgiven TWI because they never asked, nor offered any condolences to make things right. Hell will freeze over first. They are accountable to a lot of people for their evils and one day they will answer.

I always wonder why it is we have to repent to be forgiven from God, but admonished to "one up" Him in forgiveness when it comes to TWI. Why did Jesus say, if your brother repents forgive Him, yet, some people promote forgiveness without repentance? Repentance is a good thing! My favorite is the one that makes forgiveness for our own benefit. There is biblical concept you don't hear everyday.....Self-serving forgiveness.

I suspect much of it breaks along the lines of what we consider TWI. Is it an anti-christian cult founded by a false teacher who instilled in people a false sense of salvation, or a Christian group that strayed, but still has the "truth"?

Sorry, I really don't mean to take it off topic too much and frankly, those forgiveness threads get on my nerves.

it makes me sad to read about spewing gibberish - no offense intended at all

it's just because i believe differently and it's close to my heart

thanks

Spewing gibberish is close to your heart?

Ex, I am not what is close to your heart.....but, my SIT in TWI was not the tongues spoken of in scripture. It was exactly what I said....gibberish. Not perfect prayer, not praise...... not real. Why that should make you sad is mystery to me. My experience is just that....mine. It doesn't mean that God is any less great. It simply means I don't speak in tongues and when I pretended it was real in TWI it wasn't.

Gibberish doesn't become a real known language if I change my attitude. Real tongues do not become gibberish if I just love more. That is not what Paul is saying.

Actually, I am not completely convinced that what we did in TWI was not related to receiving, what the Apostle Paul calls "another spirit" in 2 Corinthians. If that is the case, I bet that makes God pretty sad.

I couldn't agree more. I learned more about that particular Bible verse than I ever did while in TWI. WOw!! Thanks Pete!

You are right...that IS really good and I too learned something. I don't even feel bad about missing church now! :)

Raf posted a really interesting article in the SIT reading room thread and I thought it was well worth posting a link here. The author also has a book entitled Fanning the Flames: Probing the issues in Acts. At least I believe it is the same person. I ordered the book either way, it looks like an interesting read. Of course, much of his article reiterates things I think are evident in these scriptures, :) but it was nice to see someone else draw similar parallels.

http://markmoore.org...s/tongues.shtml

Basham gives a classic Pentecostal definition: "Speaking in tongues is a form of prayer in which the Christian yields himself to the Holy Spirit and receives from the Spirit a supernatural language with which to praise God." This definition assumes two things. First, the primary form of tongues is prayer. Second, tongues constitute a divine, rather than a human language. Basham is right on if we're looking at the dominant contemporary exercise of tongues. However, laid next to the Scriptures, both of these assumptions are suspect.

.........................................................

. . . It is common to read testimonies of tongue-speakers who laud the personal benefits of the gift. It is extolled as a wonderful experience that enhances one's devotion to God. These statements stand on 1 Corinthians 14:4, "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." MacDonald says, "'Glossolalia' is the one gift given primarily for the benefit of the individual."Again, Basham says, "The primary purpose of it is for us in one's own devotional life."The problem is this: 1 Corinthians 14:4 is not advocating the private use of tongues; rather, Paul is criticizing their use. Turning gifts inward is unhelpful to the body; that is Paul's point. In fact, in light of 1 Corinthians 14:1a, Paul might even argue that uninterpreted tongues are unloving. The purpose of all spiritual gifts is to build up the body (1 Cor 12:7ff; 14:1-8). We are not suggesting that ministry is not deeply satisfying. We are arguing that being deeply satisfied through ministering to oneself is misguided.

Certainly a different perspective than the one we adopted in TWI concerning the benefit and purpose of tongues. The problem I see with the way we viewed tongues as something for private use and self edification is of course the obvious....it is a self-centered theology. But, even greater, is that we missed a particularly poignant admonition to strive for and seek out the building up of the body. Ironically, this is where our edification truly does come into play. VP had no problem pounding that theme home in other areas where it served his purpose. A lifetime commitment and service to his ministry springs to mind.

I shudder to think of the beauty and God glorifying and faith building meaning missed in the other verses VP used to prop up his thoughts on SIT. These are some of the things that make me queasy when I revisit Way theology.

I'm actually in the middle of reading this one, and don't know where it's going.

This writer tries to tackle tongues from a historical, Biblical and linguistic perspective.

Who wants to lay a bet that he quotes Samarin?

http://markmoore.org...s/tongues.shtml

Thanks for posting this...read the whole thing and then ordered the book, Fanning the Flame: Probing the Issues in Acts

http://www.amazon.co...

I am excited to read it and if any one else is interested I would be happy to pass my copy along when I am done!

I think this page contains very good summaries of many participants' positions, and it's good to have this discussion without any rancor. Since engaging Raf's position, I've come to consider that genuine speaking by the Spirit of God is allowing the mouth to speak uncensored out of the abundance of God's love in our hearts.

This definition does not put SIT in the place of priority, but rather prophesy, as per I Corinthians 14. I think I Corinthians 13:1 indicates that if our attitudes of heart do not allow the flow of the love of God, then all our speaking in tongues becomes exactly what Raf calls free vocalization, senseless noise.

If there's ONE thing that TWI did NOT do, it was to train us how to build an attitude of heart that would allow the love of God to flow. The thinking of each and every one of you has influenced my thinking, by the mercy and the grace of God!

Love,

Steve

I don't think an attitude adjustment is going to make that gibberish I was spewing turn into a real language. I don't think my attitude made a real language turn into gibberish either. Free vocalization is not tongues in need of more love to blossom.

It was gibberish from the get-go.

Calm down, geisha. Switch to decaff.

Decaf is about as useful as non alcoholic beer. Decaf is a baaad word. :)

In 1 Corinthians 12:28 Paul states that God has appointed teachers in the church. Teachers, are to have sound speech, rejoice in truth, have sound doctrine and are to teach with faith in and love for Jesus Christ. Teachers, are held more accountable before the Lord.

Jesus, does not place teachers in the church, abandon them, and later go around and whisper in people's ears that they can't be trusted. Do you see how that personal revelation contradicts scripture and paints Jesus in a bad light? Not to mention, that personal revelation goes against the Lord's nature, character, and His ability to head His church.

We have some amazing teachers and scholars in the church right now.....here for our benefit. They serve God at His pleasure. We are still to be discerning, no doubt there are plenty of false teachers as well, but we do have genuine God given teachers. I am just being discerning.

And yes, I do get a bit passionate when I hear the Lord portrayed as someone other than He is. . . . when I hear of another Jesus who is capable of all kinds of nefarious things.

YIKES is right if in the hands of TWI. But it is an interesting 'ponder' what would be today if the world had his actual writings or signature!

Maybe not just in the hands of TWI...it would be a challenge for many Christians not to exalt such writings. Chondra Pierce does this funny piece on going to Israel and driving the tour guide crazy by asking him every 5 minutes if Jesus may have stood in the same place she was standing.

If you like comedy you should check her out on you-tube. Who knew you could make a living as a Christian comedian? :)

My inner man is quite shriveled.

Really though. It never made any sense to say on one hand that the inner man was perfect spirit, and that everyone received the same measure. Then turn around and say you need to build it up, (like spiritual weight lifting) by speaking in tongues.

And all those poor Christians who never took PFAL or "learned" to SIT. I guess we really were super special athletes of the spirit, as God appears to have left the rest to shrivel and wither. Phew....lucky we had VP.

Or

There is another meaning to being built up in the inner man that has nothing to do with how much we SIT to "edify ourselves" and we missed the greatness and depth of God's mercy in those verses because we did have VP to tell us what they "really" meant.

Which one could it possibly be?

Steve,

I really thought God's grace and mercy had allowed you to finally finally be around Christians to see and to come to a simple knowledge of Jesus Christ. To share fully in a Christians common faith. I believed that was where your journey was leading you.

I stand corrected.

Didn't realize God rewarded us for being in a Christ denying cult. Silly me....I spent all that time repenting!

Just curious though....if the Lord taught you not to trust ANY man's interpretation of scripture....why would He call you to write one for others to trust? If every other interpretation is not to be trusted, yet your job from the Lord is to interpret for others....you must have a special calling indeed! You must be the ONLY one to ever write about Acts that the Lord deems trustworthy! Is this the same Jesus who blinded you, led you into a pit, and who placed you under a curse?

Thanks....you have made my point about restraint being a good thing.

I have two dear friends who graduated from Dallas theological....I will be sure to pass on the info about their inferior education due to dogmatic restraints. Although, there is another way to consider restraint....it can be a good thing, as it prevents us from veering to the controversial and spectacular and may keep us focused on the gospel.

I will risk it with ESV.

http://esvstudybible.org/

ESV study bible.....this is an excellent bible and when you buy it you get access to their website which is a wonderful study aid. This is a very trustworthy bible which was a collaboration effort of 95 well known and respected bible scholars and teachers.

Created by an outstanding team of 95 evangelical Christian scholars and teachers, the ESV Study Bible presents completely new study notes, maps, illustrations, charts, timelines, articles, and introductions. Altogether the ESV Study Bible comprises 2 million words of Bible text, insightful explanation, teaching, and reference material—equivalent to a 20-volume Bible resource library all contained in one volume.

The First Epistle to the Corinthians, CK Barrett.

I have this book and have found it very helpful in answering some of the question that have come up in the SIT thread.

You mean to tell me that reading the context of the letter to the Corinthians is fruitless without dissecting every verse? How do we mere mortals manage? You can't trust any translation of the bible enough to simply read it for context? I don't buy that for a second. In TWI we studied, parsed, and argued over words and microscopic details incessantly....look how far that got us.

There are probably only a handful of scholars who could truly claim to understand scripture and context if it is based purely on a knowledge of Greek semantics. What happens when someone more knowledgeable than you Steve, comes along and blows your translation out of the water? What are you left with then?

Good Lord, I was simply speaking of a reading of context and maybe some other places where Paul speaks of the Holy Spirit. We could have a field day with the Greek in Ephesians 2:8-10, but, any born again Christian can explain what it means......without Greek. Then again, someone could study it in the Greek for months and still be clueless.

In the end, we are left with three choices....we can believe it, we can deny it, or we can twist it. We don't need Greek for that, but a knowledge of Greek is not going to prevent that either.

To add to what Raf said....or to glom onto it really....I am not calling anyone a liar other than VP. I was fully persuaded myself, so, I don't have any higher ground to stand on....I participated in free vocalization for years, I led others into it, and I sold it with the rest.

And yes, there are things VP taught that were correct, like salvation by grace alone. What happened? Grace was perverted and Jesus was dismissed. It wasn't just the initiated that were troubled by grace as an occasion to sin, those things trickled right down. Something having elements of truth....is not truth. Yes, all really good lies....have an element of credibility.

There are Christians who teach sound doctrine, but it is very difficult to know who to trust or even to actually trust a teacher again. I was willing to give Benny Hinn the benefit of the doubt when I left TWI and started searching again, because I didn't know how to discern doctrine. He spoke my language as a charismatic. It never really occurred to me my perspective was the problem.

I think to unravel this picture we have to really challenge many things VP taught us, examine them, and consider another way to look at the same thing. It can be really difficult. I really don't believe we do it alone. God is with us in our search and there are Christians never caught up in TWI who understand Way theology and are willing to help.

And btw.... if someone wants to speak, pray, sing, or rap in tongues....by all means do it. You don't need my or any permission or approval.