TrustAndObey

What does the way international do? They accuse people of being possessed and then cast out the supposed possessed person! Then they issue warnings to those still in the way international to stay away from so and so because they are possessed.

Just to reiterate for the lurking innies. Jesus cast out spirits not people! NOT ONE RECORD of him casting out people. Many, many records of him casting out the spirits though and keeping the people. Just a thought...eh?

Well said.. And I don't think I had ever thought about it that way either..

Just seems rather silly too.. How dare you let us rob you blind.. You're possessed, go, get out of here.. lol.. Just plain silly..

Oh I'm sorry you got raped, only possessed people get raped.. What do you mean you were talked into having an abortion, only a possessed person would follow our advice and then complain about it! And how dare you have real family and friends that care and not in our cult, there is definitely devil spirits at work in your life!

I'm sorry if I'm making light for those who truly were hurt.. I don't mean to offend, you certainly were not possessed. They were! You needed help, they attacked. You needed comfort, they bruised you more. You needed a true friend, and they threw you to the wolves. No, a normal person would be ashamed of such behavior.. But not TWI.. No, they call the good evil and the evil good. How dare they!

another buncha crap. my "earthly" (as opposed to celestial) family has been there for me through everything even when i gave them up for twi, etc., etc.

You betcha, I agree 200%..

Course even if you believe in evolution, we all did come from the same bloodline.. Whether Adam or the ape.. So we are all the same family, so to speak.

Course, I would never trade my immediate family for their fake one..

I guess a part 2 to this question would be, what about the dinosaurs? Were they around in the "first heaven and earth" as VP taught?

I'm not a fan of much of VP's stuff.. Wouldn't glorify Usher's dates either.. Or Bullinger, or any other.. I love to keep my mind open to possibilities.. Only so far my mind's thrown out the whole Gen 1:2 "became" without form and void.. It lacked in the evidence department. So I don't subscribe to the first heaven/earth being destroyed by Satan. If anything I'd go with possibly the first being destroyed by the flood from what 1 Peters I believe mentions (and some have speculated the flood may not have even been worldwide and the words used in scripture could denote just a smaller contained area that destroyed life in that area)

As far as dinosaurs, we do have a Dinosaur State Park right down the road here.. And they have uncovered plenty of fossilized human's footsteps alongside and even within the same footstep as a dinosaur. Does that mean they coexisted? It's a possibility, one I'm willing to entertain. Also, notice all the civilizations that talk about dragons, including the scriptures. Only it is usually translated with a different word. These huge monstrous fire breathing beings, very possibly could have been one type of dinosaur that didn't become extinct until more recently. Even Alexander the Great was said to have seen one and had a large mosaic done of him with it. Even if they are just mythical, there is usually some truth to most myths.

And the whole 6000+ years... I've read some concerning both sides of the story, there's just too little time and too much info to go over it all, but the verdict is still out for me, only I'm still learning to it being still within the time frame..

I still would like to know if the grammatical use of gender in the Aramaic bears on this at all, or is totally arbitrary (except for grammatical purposes).

While I may have studied languages and how they have evolved.. I don't think I can really answer, and honestly have never heard anything outside of conjecture on the subject.

There is definite proof to early languages(Prior to Aramaic) having much figurative purpose in the use of gender, but the more they developed and evolved, the more some of that became a lost art and meanings eroded. Just as the meanings of cunieform that led to hieroglyphs that led to the letters we have today (Which many have still survived in their same form from the beginning).. Who'd know that our 'D' represented a doorway and most words that had the letter represent attributes of it.. But ages go by, and languages have for the most part been simplified for the sake of writing/speaking. But the innate meanings they used to have are massive when they were first developed. Now, after millenniums, just too many ?? to be answered in all that. And with those civilizations gone, it's mostly conjecture.

And my days of research are pretty much over anyways... Too much looking at the leaves, that I now care to just take in the beautiful scenery around.

I've been looking at who/what the Comforter is, to the idea that there is only One Spirit. If the Spirit is an "it," that lends credence to the idea that each of us may have our own individual spirit - no, it doesn't really, but VP took advantage of that to leverage/spin the "it" interpretation into the doctrine that each of us has our own individual spirit.

Yes, it did lend a bit of credence after you buy into all the other crap and out of context scriptures. It was also the whole grouping of the "new man", "inward man", "inner spirit", etc, etc, together that helped leverage it.. Unfortunately, it all goes back to us being like God, mini/demi gods at the least..

Course, no matter what the gender is, out of TWI and in the real world it just doesn't make much difference. Just like me trying to tell my wife that it's moj głow and not moj głowa.. She just ignores me.. (I insist my head is not female! But alas, the language says it is...)

Here is a question I posed to James T:

In the gospel of John, is the "he" or "him" in the Greek in the following versus the same gender in the Aramaic. Is it an it, neutral – does it matter in the Aramaic?

Just out of curiosity Tom, would it make any difference?

You do realize in most languages besides English, every "noun/pronoun/adjective" has a "gender". Take the word "house" in Greek, typically oikos even in the scriptures.. That's masculine ("os" ending).. But it is actually used in the scriptures in the feminine form also (even in John 14).. Course a house to most people has no gender, but as in most languages, gender wasn't about your sexual organs, as it is more about it's philosophical qualities.. Even in the scriptures you have a word that by definition is a young girl, yet the word itself is in neuter form (Mat 14:11), yet it 100% describes a little girl!..

Ramona remarried. T3d B1don and last I knew he was a department coordinator.

Well, since then they have actually moved.. Last I heard from them, they moved to really nice house in Washington... And getting a good $$ from da way.. Well, it is only right since his wife is good friends with da BOT..

My sister bought me a cross necklace for Christmas one year. I wear it, and I don't believe it's a dog whistle to devil spirits.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one...

You see, you wearing that cross anywhere near someone still "in" TWI, is an automatic whistle to bring them near you to try and get you into da class.. Yes, folks.. Them debil spirits will be after you to get rid of such trinkets, and if I were you, I'd run away really fast!

Dream #2: I run away from a STS with my husband and a bunch of tomato plants in the back of his car trailing dirt behind us and giving the limb coordinator the finger as we leave. It starts snowing.

Was that the tomatoes giving the finger? That would be quite a nightmare if they were in your car too..

And especially if you happened to catch a glimpse of that snow falling on gas pumps with VP peering out the window.

My worst dream that I have time and time again, is I am once again In-rez trying to figure out how the heck I got duped into signing up AGAIN to be in the corpse for the third time, while I clearly can recall I left for many a reasons!

T&O, people are constantly let off the hook and given lesser sentences. It's called plea bargaining. And it's essential for the "justice" system (cough) to work because otherwise it would be bogged down with lengthy trials.

Is that an actual valid reason, just because we have busy judges/courts/public costs?! Yeah, we're just too busy, so you get a free ride.. Yes, I know it happens. It's how many get out of traffic tickets, and even some petty crimes. And just gives people more reason to keep on doing it!

Prison - To protect the public? Why, if a person has voluntarily reformed?

And can anyone guarantee someone has been reformed? Just cause they haven't been caught doing anything else, just cause they seem nicer. I think we all have heard of many cases were those who were "supposed" reformed only went and committed more crimes, sometimes more evil, and some the very day they were let out.

To state public rejection of certain types of behavior? In that case, there'd be no more thieves or killers or any other kind of criminal - clearly not the case.

To deter others? Clearly doesn't work; people still offend.

Just because crimes happen doesn't mean the known consequences haven't deterred the many that would have happened had there been no or less consequences. Some people will no matter what. However, if they know I have a loaded gun, they sure ain't going to break into my house here where we have a castle law. You betcha they know the consequence, and they won't risk it.

Did you ever read anything by Nicky Cruz, T&O?

I have.. I also know many who have come out of Prison changed personally. In fact, I have given a couple of ex-convicts a job. My best employee came from there, was awesome for over a year, turned to God before being paroled from reading one of Nicky's book and red hot for God when he left prison, but ended up having a fight with his girlfriend which got him back into drugs cause he couldn't handle the pressure. Had to let him go (He's back in prison now). So yes, I know people "can" change. And they "can" change back. While I have nothing against showing mercy, there are some things while forgiveness is available, I believe there still ought to be consequences. Just because Adam and Eve were forgiven, didn't mean we still don't live in this fallen world today because of it. Consequences are still part of life.

Should such a man face a murder trial that might result in his imprisonment for a very long period? What would be the point - if he has become rehabilitated?

Since when would it be "ok" to NOT hold someone accountable and have to pay the consequences or pay 'less" than what every other criminal does?

If even for one time, you allow a person off the hook for a lesser sentence, then you create a loophole. One that every psychopath in the world will seek to hide under. Yeah, sure, all I have to do after killing someone I hate, is be nice! Ok, fine. So be it.. Now I can kill anyone I want.. Do you really think that's wise?

You take away consequences for anyone, or make them less than the "norm", then you'll end up doing the same for those who shouldn't.

To bring it back to the primary topic of TWI.. Even if they turned the ministry around and Rosie or LCM or even if VP was still alive, and started doing charity work, yeah, sorry, I believe there must be consequences, and since one can't know another's heart always and motives can be hidden, those consequences shouldn't be lessened. Is that cold and heartless? No, I think it teaches people right from wrong. Rather than a murderers kids thinking his dad got off lightily, they realize, there are real consequences so you better think before you act.

Course, that's my opinion.. Would love to hear an opposing view and reasons though?

What God was tellin us: Over burdened poeple living on a shoe string budget on long road trips in hot weather where they can't afford to stop at a hotel and let themselves and the car cool down will have their old jalopies break down.

Nah, that would be using your brain, and anyways sounds too complicated and would take time and money to fix..

Much easier "and cheaper" to blame it on good ol' simple believing.

What I can't understand is how someone could sink as low as to name their offspring after him..

You may not want to understand the answer to that one since many could have been named not just for their spiritual pap, but it could be even their bio.....

Pssst...Hey be nice for a few weeks then go back to being an a$$!! - priceless.

I was really curious after hearing that if he really did what Rosalie asked him too.. It would have been the first few months of your first year in-rez... Just curious, did you see a difference? lol..

Cult.. Hehe.. Yeah, I don't use the term.. Only because it means different things to different people.. And my in-laws.. Well, they think my wife was in a cult because she was going to a Baptist church in her home town! In her country, any "Christian group" outside of the Roman Catholic Church is considered a cult irregardless of their doctrines/creeds.) And especially Baptists and most Protestants.. The funniest thing is that even the Jehovah Witnesses in her country are larger than most denominations we would consider "orthodox" here in America.

Ahh well, I just tell people I was with a church that I eventually found out had a bunch of corruption at the top.

Oh, one other thing,... the kinder, gentler, Rosalie Administration,.... largely meant holding off a bit on being A$$es to people. For Rosalie, this took a hermitage of a sort, But can any of you that were close to Headquarters say that there was anything done, more than it was - to simply discontinue doing some things?

All that "being nice" was a show.. I remember after I had graduated Corps, one of my Corps brothers had brought an accusation against the coordinator (B01ch@k) because he thought he went overboard in things he said. Which honestly wasn't much different than what most of us heard, but this was personal (Actually it was more personal about his Corps "woman" he ended up marrying). Anyways, so the BOD get together in a private meeting with Bo1h@wk to figure out how to simmer my Corp bro down. It was probably the first I'd heard Rosalie actually having to tell our Corp Coordinator to apologize and to "let off" on the newbies being trained (That would have been you - OldSkool) for a few months. He was told to "be personal" and "kind" and then after a few months he could return to his "usual". lol.. I just had to laugh when I heard that.. What a farce!

Oh, let's not forget "Wash My Feet in The Blood of The Wicked"

I was at the 98 advanced class when they debuted it for others besides way corps. Everyone went nuts with applause.

Yeah.. I actually got upset over that song even when I was IN.. I thought, what EGO and HATE! And everyone was cheering?!!?! Granted, I had to "renew my mind" lol, cause it is a verse in the scriptures..

There were a few songs I actually liked, and "Daddy's Arm" was one of them too JJ.. There was also this song I hadn't thought about in years. Played only once that I heard at a STS when we had a power outage at HQ from a big storm.. Mike Martin played and sang solo to "Trust In God", which basically was Proverbs 3:5ff put to music.. Never heard it again. But I kept it in mp3 form. Actually just thinking about it last night made me take out my guitar to pick out the notes and chords.. So there were some.. But that one, cause it actually talks about trusting in God.. So much talk about trusting in da verd, or your leaders.. But just simple trust in God himself.

It's always amazed me that The Way completely disgreards "love thy neighbor as thyself" in word and deed. In fact some of them take it a step further, making disparaging remarks of those not in The Way,... with pride.

If I remember correctly, and maybe it was isolated or a faulty memory (I hope not, I'm still young!).. But I recall when I first got hooked up with TWI that they said the "love thy neighbor" didn't refer to anyone except those in the "household".. That somehow the "neighbor" part was used to signify they were in the "household"... Anyone else hear that?

Clearly this isn't true since Jesus himself clarifies who thy "neighbor" referred to when he shared the story of the Good Samaritan... Yeah, those lowly Samaritans who you hate.. Those who believe differently.. Go figure. Your neighbors!

Sometimes I just stop and wonder how I was so blind!! DOH!

God is also light . . . so love=spirit=light

Ahh, but God is invisible.. So Love=Spirit=Light=Invisible Light, Invisible Spirit, and Invisible Love...

That was TWI training 102.

Yup , the COMMAND voice................

No praise and worship there.....................

I actually tried to go through these CD's to find just ONE that wasn't about US or that sang praise to HIM...........

LOL.. After leaving I didn't go through the CDs but instead through the blue book, since they were the ones we sang, looking for the same thing.. I was amazed at how extreme few there were of the "regular" songs that were actually to God.. Like you said, the whole relationship, removed.. Instead it was with the book, da verd! da verd! and nuttin but da verd! yeah, no thanks, I'll take my loving heavenly Father over that and you can keep yer verd!

To me the scriptures describe them aptly as self deluded as you say.

I guess to speak about the topic rationally there are couple approaches:

1) Scripturally

2) Psychologically

From a phsychological standpoint, if you study the behavior of predators, like serial killers, there is usually a progression involved, where the first evil acts performed there is evidence of a conscience and moral struggle, but later acts are without this. That perspective may apply also.

I think you have a great point there.. Probably more true than I understand myself, not being that "up" on psychology and all.. But certainly realizing myself, it came to that, when I was asked to do things my conscience said no.. Some I caved in cause I thought I was right, but ultimately I finally listened and I left..

That was an EPIC FAIL. First big shot at being "in charge". What a mess. That's hilarious though that Hope, AR was a recurring breakdown spot. I thought we'd never get out of that place.

An EPIC FAIL?! hahaha.. No, we got there alive! You might have been pi$$ed at me for driving all 20+ hours and not allowing someone else but we did make it alive! lol..

Course I was starting to wonder myself if we'd make it there.. Glad you guys had someone who knew more about cars than me.. A water pump was not on my list of repair abilities.. Even today! But yeah, every year was something there. Same city or right outside it. Another year it was a broken thermostat and plugged radiator, and another year it actually happened to my vehicle and the steering column broke. Luckily for that last one, it happened right AFTER my alternator started a fire so I pulled off only to have the steering column break after coming to a stop. Yeah, but was it God that saved us from going 70 and having the steering column break and possibly causing deaths? According to "el leaders" it was not.. It was all my bad believing to have a bad alternator and steering column! At least I was able to fix both myself fairly quickly.

Chockfull,

I don't disagree, she lies in sin. That the adversary is able to work through her. That her life is full of deceit and evil fruit. I don't think any of that is in question.. I think we all agree on this 100%. lol. They must be blind to not believe that.

But to me, the topic is more a question of where is their thinking. Do they really recognize their actions, what they are doing.. We all agree what they do is evil. What they continue to do is deceptive and the work that is anti God and Christ.. But do they realize that.. And that, I don't know.. definitely self deluded..

Gen-2,

Yup, she's a compassionless soul either way... Very sad.. She could do so much to help others, yet she won't.. Those in TWI could all be living joyously, yet they are weighted down with laws from the BOD only they don't recognize them as such. And she won't let them free, but rather does everything in her power to bind them up.. Compassionless to the very core.

I seem to remember that wierwille thought displaying pictures of Jesus....was idolatry.

IIRC......he explained that no one knows what Jesus looked like and to replicate him in a picture would be a man-made image. And that, would be idolatry.

And we know what Timothy looked like? Or was the Timothy statue done later?

I'm thinking you have another problem.. You are now +10.. Thus, because of your popularity, you have now become excommunicated out of the cult of zero.. We welcome your return when you lose 10 friends..

Course, now that I'm thinking about it.. I do remember those trips to the Rock were always an addventure. Shortfuse probably remembers my first trip to the Rock more than I seeing it was with his WOW family. I was a teenager and wouldn't let anyone drive my car, so I drove the whole way (from Texas to Ohio) and took naps while we stopped for lunch/supper. But I was so half asleep the whole time. lol.. Surprised I made it in one piece. And of course one of the cars in our caravan had a water pump go out in the usual breakdown spot of Hope, Arkansas. Birthplace of Clinton! It seemed 3 years in a row cars in the caravan I was with going to the Rock always broke down there. Maybe God was telling us something! ;)