uptown1

It’s interesting to note that when I mentioned getting off the couch and doing something for God instead of just complaining about everything people went nuts. I have obviously struck a cord. Why did so many people become angry when it was suggested that a lot of you out there are doing nothing for God? Because it is true. If you were doing anything for God it would have never occurred to you to personalize my comments. You can lie to me easily enough. You can tell me this is none of my business easily enough. You can dismiss me easily enough. But it will not change what is true. I came to gs to talk to believers, but I didn’t find any.

Skyrider, You said that you were helping believers. No I don’t call that quitting. That’s the kind of thing I think we should be doing. When you guys are reading this you have to stop and think, “If the shoe fits wear it.” You’re taking care of your family, helping believers who have been hurt, running a fellowship, etc. My experience is that you’re the exception. There is a reason it says there is a lot of work, but the laborers are few – because people like you are the exception.

You hit the nail on the head Bella. Any group that teaches its people to go and make disciples of men is sure to collapse on itself. Amen.

Mr. Hammeroni, I’m trying to draw a distinction between how the world lives and how a believer lives. We have a job to do – reconciling people back to God. How each of us is involved in this process is going to be different. I just picked pastor because it represented this. The world (unbelievers) are not busy reconciling people back to God. They’re just out there living life. After twi went bust all of those people who were out there doing things like going WOW, inviting people to bible study, etc just kind of laid down and quit. In other words, they started going through life like the rest of the world does. They gave up their primary occupation of reconciling people back to God. I’m not talking about everyone here. Yes, some have continued on like the friend of mine I mentioned in a previous post, some at CES, etc. I’m not talking about these people. But in my experience, which over the years is a good little bit, most ex-wayer just quit.

I don't believe my assessment of ex-wayers is factually inaccurate. The people you mentioned are the exception to the rule and as the old saying goes, "The exception proves the rule." I could be wrong I suppose, but this is not my experience. Which of the following statement rings more true to you. 1. The majority of ex-way followers are pastors of churches (or some other similar job). 2. The majority of ex-way followers are just living their life like everyone else on earth. The answer just seems obvious to me. Excathedra, Yes, you’ve done your time – I a cult! How about you do some time for God? Ask God to pick a job for you that you would like, that agrees with your personality, etc. I bet he’ll do it.

For each person it’s going to be different. Moses spent forty years in the wilderness before things got rolling. Joseph spent quite a few years in slavery and prison before things took off. Paul spent 14 years in Arabia (I think is was Arabia). I have been moving rather slowly myself. I see two basic reasons for slow growth. One is that the individual person needs time to grow so they can handle the job. This is when all the prep works get done. I believe that’s what Joseph was doing while he ran that guys business and then later the prison. The other is that it’s not the right time. Israel spent 400 or 450 years in Egypt before it was the right time to come out. This was also a factor for Joseph. He couldn’t meet the baker and cupbearer until they were thrown into jail. He couldn’t interpret Pharaoh’s dream until he had it. There are a variety of factors and for each person depending on their particular calling, physical location, and the timing of many other events these things are all going to be different. What I’m concerned with is that a lot of people are just doing nothing. They’re just maintaining what they’ve got when they could be amping up for something. God has stuff going on everywhere, but if we refuse to get up off of the couch what can he do with us? Your job is not your job. It’s what you do to pay the bills. It’s a means to an end – not the end. Your job is to work for God – that’s your primary occupation. We should all be involved in this whether we’re in the preparatory building up phase or we’re in the active phase. God has tons of stuff you could do and that you would enjoy doing. A few months ago I started asking God to find someone for me to help – no particular reason why, I just did. One day on my way to my car I lady stopped me and asked if I could help her with her car. She just moved here and just got a job and now her car was broke down. She was a single mother of two and was barely making ends meet. I couldn’t get her car working, so instead I drove her back and forth to work for a week. I remember what she said when I, quite out of the blue offered to do this for her: “I was praying to God that he would help me.” She was praying that right when I walked out the door and our paths crossed. Later in Corinthians I read what Paul said about giving. He said that when we give it causes praise to go up to God. I’m pretty sure that when her prayer was answered by my gift she praised God. There are lots of jobs we can do.

Oh, Bella, I almost forgot. You asked me what I do with all the knowledge I acquire. Well, that’s simple. I try to educate people like you, sweetheart. But in your case it’s more like a forced feeding. Yes, I’m clever too!

Tonto, Let me try to clarify a bit. I'm not saying they're not pleasing to God. Nor do I think that you have to have a following or that you will have one if you are active. But I honestly don't see anyone really on fire for anything. I have a friend who took it upon himself to study the creation/evolution controversy. He has no background in any related fields, but you wouldn't know that if you talked to him because of the huge time and money investment he made to learn every detail of his subject. He created a presentation so he could present this information to others and has done just that. No one asked him to do any of this. He doesn't get paid for it. He just thought it up and did it. This is not the first thing like this he has done. He also travels around to different churches and does their praise and worship music for them. In order to pull this off he has to meet with a band and practice regularly. (That’s another big time investment.) Again, no one asked him to do this. No one pays him for it. He just though it up and did it. Do you know how many ex-way people I've come across that have done anything like this - none. Unless you want to count the guys from CES. I'm sure there are a few others out there, but the key word here is "few."

Bella, I don’t think you’re going to find anything that doesn’t need fixing or at least some regular repairs. And it may be that some people do need to walk away because that is truly what’s best for them. I have spent the first part of my life moving around the country and most places I ended up I went to a fellowship – Wisconsin Rapids, Madison WI, Rock Island ILL, a couple in the Dallas area, CA, VA, etc. Some of the believer’s I know have friends in places I haven’t been to. When we talk they report the same things I’ve seen. I’ve had a chance to see my fare share and it’s exactly like I described – most of them really aren’t doing all that much.

As far as the psychology and momentous stuff goes something came to me. Who trained Paul? Paul was brought up as a Pharisee, but as soon as he started working for God he denounced all of this as “dung.” It was the training and guidance he received from Christ that enabled his ministry. Who taught Peter? I think that was Christ too. Moses was trained in all the knowledge of the Egyptians, but it doesn’t seem that he ever uses it for much. I don’t think it was the Egyptians that gave him the Law. Didn’t that come from God? CES was clearly looking in the wrong direction – they were looking to men. My guess is that this is a holdover mentality from twi days.

I’d guess that it’s going to be pretty hard for John to let go of those prophecies. He destroyed his marriage with them and hurt Elizabeth in the process I imagine. That’s a lot to own up to, so I’m not surprised he’s taking his time. I’m also not opposed to change in the leadership of CES. If guys like John can’t move it forward (whatever that means) then they need to step aside so others can take over. It’s important to know when to stand up and lead, but it’s just as important to know when to hand over the reigns. There’s a very interesting book titled The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. In it he discusses the nature of mass movements – the kind of stuff they all have in common. He noted that when a movement is in its infancy it requires a dynamic personality to lead it – someone who’s willing to take risks, etc. Once the movement has grown and become a growing concern this type of leadership actually becomes detrimental to the group. He needs to be replaced with someone who is more easygoing and cautious. I point this out as an example of different kinds of leadership being necessary at different points in a group’s lifespan. I’m not trying to make any direct comparison. Put a leader into a situation and he will fail, but put that same leader into a different situation and he will succeed. The point is that maybe the guys who are there are not right for the job. I would like to see CES take stock of their current situation to see exactly where they are at and where they want to go. Then decide who are the best people to get them there. If that means someone has to step aside and take on a different role then they should do so graciously because they want to do what’s best. That’s the nature of being on a team – self-sacrifice. You sacrifice yourself for the good of the team. (I’m not talking about the twi idea of self-sacrifice here.)

I posted this somewhere else, but it applies here. One thing that is commonly seen with people who leave a cult is that they turn right around and join another cult. I think this is where you get momentous and the pp stuff from. They were doing what a lot of ex-cult people do. I agree, there is a long way to go, but I have a long way to go too. If you put my life under a microscope all of you wouldn’t find it very hard to tear me apart. But I don’t quit. I keep going and as time goes by I’m noticing something – I’m making progress. I’m hoping this situation can serve as a catalyst to wake them up and get them moving. Most people who left twi aren’t doing much. They have their fellowships or go to a church now – that sort of thing. Maybe get involved in some community activities or something. These guys tried to do something for others. Yes, they messed up a lot (momentous and pp). What I saw as one of the best aspects of CES was that served as a clearinghouse for information that’s hard to find or even know about elsewhere like all of the material on the trinity. The youth camp was a good idea. And having classes on how to do research for young people was a good idea. No one taught me much. I’ve just kind of picked up piecemeal. I didn’t know about the Bible Works software before CES. I still haven’t found any that’s better. Etc. Yes some of it sucks. So what are you going to do? Throw it all away or try and fix it? Sometimes I suck too. I’m glad God didn’t throw me away.

Richnchrispy, I’m getting a pp for you right now…..yes here it comes…..a word from the Lord….. I perceive that you live in…..wait it’s coming to me now…..Houston! More is coming……I see you playing guitar…..maybe some other instruments. Yes, yes……you own a …..business of some sort……a book store! There’s still more……..your wife works in a healing profession……midwife maybe. It’s still coming……..God wants you to send me a large sum of cash. Very very large and right away. Hope you enjoyed this as much as I did;)

Linda z, Research is desperately needed all the time and it should never stop – ever. Every time you read your bible you’re doing research. Yes, it’s true, 5 million word studies won’t put love into practice. That’s the difference between doctrine and practice. First you learn the doctrine, and then you go out and practice it. Where do you learn that doctrine from? From the Bible (mainly). That’s what those word studies are for. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because twi f-up doesn’t mean you quit doing research. It’s not all or nothing. There is a balance. I like to study a lot, so I naturally like research oriented material. Devotionals don’t really do it for me, but a copy of Figures of Speech Used in the Bible is like gold. Instead of seeing everything that is wrong with CES try seeing something that is right with them. Thus far I haven’t heard one person say one good thing about them.

I’m not comparing CES to David or Paul. I’m pointing out that no one can fall so low that they are beyond God’s reach. People can surprise you. They can turn around when everyone else has written them off. Paul made it a point in Corinthians to say that God routinely chooses those of little account by the world’s standards. You don’t have to be a “David” or a “Paul.” You just have to be willing to try and follow God. Yes, people may have said the exact same thing about VP and LCM. Then they should have used their common sense (holy spirit would not have been needed for these two) and walked away when they saw that both were getting worse not better. I’m not saying you should give allegiance to CES. I’m saying that you shouldn’t count them out yet. People do turn around. If they don’t, then walk. The point is not to need the group or let them run your life. Nowhere have indicated this. Look at some of my recent posts about cults. I think you still have some left over “I just got burned by twi” left in you. (I’m not saying that to be mean – it’s how you come off to me.) If you let another group run your life then learn your lesson and quit doing that. JAL should have told KA to take a hike when she got involved in his marriage. He made a mistake. If you go to CES or anywhere else it’s your responsibility to make sure you do what God says. I already go to a lot of other research sources. Some of them are great. There is a CES fellowship in my area – I don’t go there because I don’t like the atmosphere. I use them for what I think they’re worth – good research like One God and One Lord. I don’t go to any of their classes or seminars. I’m about to start a Bible study at a local church. If CES gets their sh$# straight I think they have something to offer. Some of which is hard to find in other places – like the stuff on the trinity.

Doojabel, I think you missed my point all together. Twi would have done something like equate themselves with Israel – God’s chosen people out of all nations on earth. My point was simply that a group or organization can receive God’s favor. They are not automatically excluded just by virtue of the fact they are a group. Do you have a personal ax to grind with CES? I’m not being argumentative, it’s a real question.

Rich, If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that CES really lost it on the people side of things. This is no doubt due to their twi training. As my uncle always says, "It's hard to ignore your training." An easy way out of this would be for CES to stay focused on the research side of things. Keep producing material like One God and One Lord and back off of the fellowship areas. This would allow them to stick with their strong points.

God brought the nation of Israel around - restored them to good standing as a nation when they had gone after idols. This of course could only happen by restoring individuals or getting rid of the bad ones and putting someone on the throne who didn't need restoring. In Israel's history God has restored/replaced a leader and then had that leader go through Israel removing the false god's and their priests, thus turning the people back to God. In a hierarchical structure everything ultimately comes from the top down. CES may have a lot of problems, but if the leadership can be restored/replaced that person(s) can then begin cleaning house so-to-speak. When Israel turned away from God it usually took a catastrophic situation like being enslaved to foreigners to wake them back up and get them reoriented toward God. The CES crises may serve this function.

It’s defiantly a possibility. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what actually happens. I’ve known some people that no matter what happens they never seem to learn their lesson. Just look at twi today – they still don’t get it.

Belle, I did sign up for the bible study. It starts next month and I'm hoping it will be a little deeper than what I've experienced so far. And I've already found another church to check out. Since I've never actually gone to church before it seemed like a good idea to check several just to see what's out there. I have a very limited experience with church at this point, so we'll see. I’ll keep you posted.

1broken1 You mentioned "CES, CI, AG." What are CI and AG? I agree with the diversity of the body. I don't think of CES as the only "real" thing going. I'm interested in any good stuff I can find anywhere and I think a lot of other people are too. What I liked about CES was the research they produced and the material that came from it (The Romans tapes, Journey Through the Old Testament, One God and One Lord, etc). I'm having a hard time finding a lot of good stuff like this out there. Like I said before, I'm finding milk but not a lot of meat. I think the body is better with CES than without as far as this stuff goes. And that is why I want CES to survive and get better. I see the latest development as a step forward. I think the pp abuse will stop and this incident will serve as a wake up call for many other areas in CES that look like they need attention such as the Christian Psychology push. I also think CES will probably take a real hard look at the baggage they brought in because of their twi background. This incident has nearly destroyed CES (and it may still do so). I can’t imagine that it will not wake them from their slumber. As far as certain people being drawn to CES because it looked like a place where people like them could call home…well, I have some reservations there. I think the ex-wayfer culture has largely stagnated. This is a guess on my part and I could be totally wrong about that. The WOW people you mentioned were only willing to take these kinds of risks for God when they believed there was an organization standing behind them. Now that the glory days of twi are long gone these same people (not all of them of course) are no longer taking on these types of challenges. It seems to me that much of the zeal is gone. We were lead to believe in a man and an organization – that is where we put our faith – not in God or Christ. That was supposed to be the big lesson we all learned from the twi experience. With that lesson learned and our faith put where it belongs – in God and Christ – people should be revved up to go and really do something for God this time. But what I see are a lot of people either reliving the twi glory days like a bunch of has-beens (I didn’t mean for that to sound so harsh) or they seem content to b%ch and complain about the twi ad nauseam.

David had another man's wife and then murdered him - he turned around. Paul traveled around murdering God's people - he turned around. Etc, etc, etc. Now that MG and crazy KA have been removed from leading CES it is possible that things could improve. CES did have some good stuff. JAL's Romans tapes were pretty good. A Journey Through the Old Testament was a good teaching. One God and One Lord is an excellent book. I don't see it as all bad. The pp stuff got out of hand with KA. But I think she's been silenced now. Do any of you hold out any hope for things?

I was glad CES didn't try to keep it light. I recently started going to church in my local area and that's one of the problems I noticed right away - they were feeding the people milk and no meat. The milk of the word will keep you alive, but it won't help you grow strong. If CES could manage to turn a corner and get rid of all the cult influence they still wouldn't become very large. The One God and One Lord book alone would keep them on the black list of Christianity. I would like to see CES survive this and get better. Part of me thinks that could be possible. Does anyone else here see any hope for them?

Bella, Here is John Shroyer’s web site. http://cffm.org/doc/research.shtml Are you sure that's not Mark? It looks a lot like him. Look at the picture of Mark on the GS home page and compare the two. I couldn't tell the difference.

When you hold your mouse over the word "teaching" the pic in the center of the page should change - that's when you'll see MG.