Gregory A. Hill

Socks, At first, it was hard work for me - I hadn't worked in a kitchen in years. I had a desk job here in Tulsa so it took a little time to adjust. There was a lot a free time as well. No, there really wasn't a strict regimen. Meals were served at regular times. There was a lot of time to do as you pleased. The rules and regs from The Way were not there. Chris was very hands off. Really, I expected to be given a whole regimen when I got there - basically I could complete my tasks in the Kitchen and do what I wanted. My wife and I use to go to the gym after dinner and dance the hours away. It was fun. When classes were run there was extra work. But there was never any overburdensome work placed on anyone as far as I could see. Again for me, there was a lot of free time. For the regular staff it seemed more like a regular 8-5 job. The doctrine that I had heard from The Way was changed dramatically. I speculate that he grew very much over the years. Still serious about God's Word though. There wasn't a bunch of bondage or anything like that. I speculate again that after the split occurred between The Way and The Way in Great Britain, Chris began to grow very much. A lot of grace and mercy was there at Gartmore House. We were more like a family. Helping each other out. Everyone seemed well taken care of. It was like nothing that I had seen at The Way.

Coolchef, No it was more like a family there. I don't think any of those women would have tolerated what you say.

Socks, thanks for your thoughful statements. I didn't know Chris in the early years. When I was at Gartmore House I didn't have any negative filters. He was in top form. He was one of the first I heard mention professional counseling as an option. I posted the part about attention getting personality disorder because as a guy who has tried to run a decent home fellowship - I used to confuse it with spiritual problems. I have even been of accused of having spiritual problems myself when really the problem was depression and mental anguish. I agree that there is a shortage of good mature Christian pastors. If you find one I think it must be a real gift. One of the reasons I have posted what I have posted is because I saw good things not bad things. I experienced healing and deliverance. No matter - some will only remember the bad. Although I am highly critical of denominations - I know that there can be very good people who attend them and work for them. Having grown up in Tulsa - I have been surrounded by the Word Faith groups and their seed money hype. I think we have to be very careful about them. The first fellowship I went to was a home fellowship run by a woman associated with ORU. It was a model I learned to enjoy. I like the home fellowship model. It works for us.

Where’s Chris Geer? If he is still doing what I saw him doing with my own eyes at Gartmore House in 1994 and 1995, he is producing some incredible “eye opening” highest quality Biblical Teachings. He’s loving God first and foremost. He’s trying to help everyone around him as much as he can. He’s not wasting time or motion. He’s working from before dawn til late at night. And those near him are reaping the benefits if they are believing God’s Word. I saw with my own eyes a man under the most extreme pressure still continue to love God, teach His Word and do the best he could to help those around him. It was one of the greatest examples of Christ-in service I have witnessed in the world today. I saw things and heard things that normally we only read about in the Bible. Not once did he raise his voice. He seemed always on the look out for ways to help those around him. Personally, he was gentle, kind, very patient and very, very helpful. He didn’t just talk either – he expended energy in motion. He and those with him worked their butts off. They carried others like me on their backs until we could start walking on our own. One thing I have learned is that no matter how much one gives and works and loves – most people seem to always under appreciate it. People always seem to want more and more and they can be very critical and even cruel to those that are doing their best to really serve the Lord Jesus Christ as God would have them to do. It’s been said before - sometimes the greatest things in our lives are never fully appreciated until they are gone missing. No matter what happened at Gartmore Hose, no matter what happens to Chris. Our Lord has a name – Jesus. Jesus Christ is our Lord. And no matter what Dr. John Judeus wants to print. To attack a minister of Jesus Christ just hurts the body of Christ. If he thinks denominations are the answer, then I’ll remind him – True Christianity never started as a denomination. It was at first labeled by the world as a cult. If I were the devil fighting against the Lord Jesus Christ – I think that one of the first things I would do is build a denomination with men in cubes and auto responder messages pre queued. I would build in it a religious hierarchy of arrogant incompetent boobs with hundreds of rules and regulations. And I would do all I could to put the traditions of men above the Word of God as it was originally given. I would make as many people as possible become dependent on these incompetent blind guides. I would build extravagant seminaries to widen the snare. I would make it almost impossible for people to ever really study the Word of God for themselves. I’d do everything possible to keep them from truly knowing Christ. And I wouldn’t just stop at one denomination either – I would build thousands of them. But I am not the devil. I am a believer in Christ hopefully learning to follow a little better as time goes on. I thank God for people like Chris Geer and those other wonderful spiritual giants that I witnessed at Gartmore House in 1994-1995. I thank God for all those who continue to fight the good fight to really help people come to know the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, there is sometimes pain and treachery. In a battle there are going to be some casualties. There are going to be some wounds that need some healing. There are going to be mistakes made. But I also look forward to our Lord’s return when things are going to really be put straight. Gregory A. Hill North Tulsa County Summer 2007

Where’s Chris Geer? Well, if it’s the man I knew a Gartmore House he’s doing all he can to love God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength. He’s doing all he can to love and help those around him. He’s getting up early every morning with God on his mind and he’s producing some of the finest work available today. But could it be better? When I look back at those wonderful times at Gartmore House I begin to realize that it was more than just Chris Geer. Chris was surrounded by some of the most committed hard working “women” believers I have ever known. They followed his example – perhaps some exceeded his example. When you’re surrounded by committed believers that really want to know God’s Word and carry out our Lord’s instruction, you know what’s going to happen – God will help their teacher produce what’s needed. When I think back, I would call those women “spiritual giants” even though some were less than 5’ tall. They loved God so much they had no problem telling 6’5” big men where to get off. They’d walk right up to a big arrogant incompetent boob and reprove them with God’s Word and God’s Love. They were full of courage. No wonder there was so much deliverance going on. No wonder we were seeing so much. These spiritual giants had names: Barbara, Helga, Renate, Cathy, Maria, Maura, Helen, Wendy, Nicky, Vickie, and perhaps others. They got me straightened out pretty quick. These wonderful women loved God and loved others. They put the work in buddy. They made Gartmore House rock and roll on God’s Word. They made up the rank and file of the Lord’s Army at Gartmore House. They got things done right day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year. They handled that pressure bay. I’ll shoot straight. Most men could never handle the physical and spiritual pressure that these kick foot soldiers did – Gartmore house would have been just a building without them. Thank you - you women. Thanks for helping me. After coming back to the states and taking WIGP class at different locales. I noticed the lack of female soldiers. For some reason it seems that when a woman gets married, they’re almost treated as second-class citizens. But in reality, I see many of these wives are harder working and sharper than their husbands. Why is it that so many men will not drop the ego and just admit it? I’ve read Ephesians and Timothy – I know what it says – but as far as I’m concerned half the body Christ is put down at marriage and I don’t think that we fully understand those scriptures. Some of these class presenters are knuckleheads. Frankly, some of the women would do a better job. The finest presenter of WIGP that I’ve met was a man named Mi*e N*vak. When I took classes that he presented they were just great. To me the difference between he and others was that he did not interject his personality or ego during the presentation. He did not embellish nor try to add his own twist to the class. He didn’t ask stupid questions at the end of the sessions. You got that Johnny T? MN just presented the material and enjoyed doing it. It was fun. Why not just cut the crap and roll the tape? I heard that MN stopped presenting and I’m not sure why? I suspect that a couple of arrogant incompetent boobs and an attention getting personality disorder were the cause? I also heard one presenter once say “that he really wasn’t interested in learning anything new.” You know what’s going to happen to a man or woman who is no longer interested in learning anything new? THEY ARE NOT GOING TO LEARN ANYTHING NEW. Get a grip man. Seems to me that a good presenter should be highly interested in growing and learning more about God, His Word and the Things of God. But, I’ve seen other things as well. B*ian H*an*y is the finest teacher of God’s Word that I have seen since our return to the States. He teaches hot Bible. There’s one problem. Others don’t recognize it. I have seen him teach from the scriptures, accurately from the scriptures and then others stop him and say stupid stuff like “hey that’s not the way Chris. Hey man Chris isn’t the Pope! He’s still learning. Isn’t he? Some of those study guides are going to change I can almost guarantee it. You’ve got to teach what God wants you to teach no matter what anybody else says. Sometimes the words you speak will be different than the KJV or even the Study Guide and guess what we checked Br*an’s so called mistake – IT WAS RIGHT ON from the critical Greek texts and Papyri. Where’s Chris Geer? If he’s doing what I saw at Gartmore House well I’ve told you what he’s doing. But he did lose a lot of those wonderful woman - those spiritual giants. Or did he? Gregory A. Hill North Tulsa County Summer 2007

Where’s Chris Geer? Well if it’s still the same Chris Geer I knew, he’s doing everything he can to love God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength. He’s doing everything he can to love and help people. That’s the Chris Geer I saw at Gartmore House in 1994 and 1995. “What makes us think we’re so qualified to counsel people?” Remember, I told you that was the question posed by Chris in the lunchroom at Gartmore House in 1995? To me, that was some incredible delivering stuff. He then went on to speak of how extensive training and knowledge was required and how much time might be required and so forth… That was something I never had heard back in the states. I had never heard someone from the previous ministry say that. And although Chris didn’t say it – to me it meant that at times it was right on to get these people to a real certified professional counselor or psychiatrist or whatever was required to get them some real help. You see, there are people that have personality disorders that really cause them problems their whole lives unless they get them fixed. These people can cause problems for everyone around them as well. They can literally destroy a church. The problem can just be a flesh problem. Most of the times it is not a spiritual problem, it is a personality disorder of the flesh. You start trying to cast out a devil spirit that’s not even in them then and you’re just going to make the situation worse. These people need real professional help. I guarantee you some arrogant incompetent redneck boob from OKC isn’t going to get the job done. It’s going to take a real pro to get those issues resolved. For reference, I thought I would include a link to a website I found regarding these personality disorders. Read it and you will see what I mean. I’ve seen people that had these personality disorders – I confused it with spirit – and guess what, I did not help the situation. Things got worse. I’m serious look at it. It may really open your eyes. Here’s the linkèhttp://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htm Now I thought I would consider John Judas recommendations to return to a real denomination as a solution to help ourselves and other folks. I may not like his Crap Crap article but maybe he still had some really good advice. Heck why not. So I opened up them phone book. Man there must thousands of churches in Tulsa County I can go to. So I thought I would take the wife down to the latest greatest Pentecostal Holiness church down on 11th street. But then I remembered, I’d been there before – They all speak in tongues out loud at the same time without any interpretation, That’s right they roll around in the floors and aisles’ they’re singing and dancing in the “spirit” and people are getting slain in the spirit right and left all in the name of Jesus. They’re fallin’ all over the place. So I thought, I think we’d be better off going to a different denom. Hey why not go to the oldest one known. Yea, that’s the ticket. You know the one where you confess your sins to the man in the cube. And then the man in the cube says in auto responder type fashion – bless you son thy sins be forgive go in peace. You know the one where you learn to say the same prayer 50 times to a dead person. On third thought, I think my wife and I will just have a simple fellowship at home and study and teach from the Bible ourselves. You know, really ask our Lord what he wants us to do. And try to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbors as ourself. Perhaps we’ll sing “Jesus is all the world to me” and pray and love each other without all that other CRAP CRAP. God’s best to you, Gregory A. Hill North Tulsa County Summer 2007

Well thanks to you all for the clarification and heads up. I mean it. I think that my concurring with white dove may have hit a sore spot. Here's my personal review of the PFAL Piracy Article. I don't expect to make too many friends here by publishing it. PFAL, WIGP, John Juedes and Crap Crap? Headline - PFAL Piracy. Go to the dictionary – look up the word piracy – there’s no piracy involved here. Attention getting headline – that’s it. But it gets people to read doesn’t it? You spin it anyway you like. “Geer hasn't circulated Wierwille's class since TWI cut all ties with him, probably because TWI controls the PFAL tapes.” Circulated? What does that mean? Perhaps just another well-chosen word? I sat through the Advance Class on Power for Abundant Living at Gartmore House in the summer of 1995 – long after the cut that he mentions. “Instead, Geer licenses other ex-Wayers to use his recorded Walking in God's Power …” How does JJ know? Does he have a copy of Chris’ list? I personally know of many Ex-wayers that applied for licenses agreements and did not obtain them. License agreements can be applied for by any legal entity. “The class is spread over 10 or 11 sessions of about two hours each.” All of the sessions that I attended were below 2 hours – most all were about 1 hour or less. OK minor point but it makes me wonder if JJ even took WIGP? “… the context, used before, to whom its addressed, similar or identical, the law of believing, administrations, three days and three nights, Jesus Christ is not God, the mystery, renewed mind speaking in tongues, inhaling holy spirit, and so forth.” The topic Jesus Christ is not God – is nowhere in the class. You were dead wrong on that one JJ. I’ve already discussed that Paul’s the thorn in the flesh was different. By the Way - I think very different. “G*er uses all the same "examples" Wierwille used of how no one in the world understands the word except for him-- such as Paul's thorn in the flesh, today in paradise, and four crucified.” Dead wrong on that one again JJ. Nowhere in the class is it promoted that no one in the world understands the word except for him. Nowhere! “It's obvious that G*er took all Wierwille's teachings at face value and didn't assess them thoroughly. For instance, he just repeats Wierwille's erroneous definitions of lambano and dechomai, even though they are shallow, false and contradict Biblical usage.” JJ you're wrong again, the definition for lambano was definitely changed. This article begins to smell after a while. “Jesus Christ-- A Minor Topic” Wrong again JJ. The Lord Jesus Christ’s life, death, resurrection, accomplishments and Christ being our Lord is a Major Topic in WIGP. Christ being the Head of The Church is clearly emphasized. Enough is enough already. I could have added much more to this review. Seems to me that JJ has an agenda of his own to push. This article is full of error. That’s probably a more than polite way to say it. Frankly, after reading this stuff by JJ, I couldn’t trust anything JJ has written. It was enough info for me to conclude that JJ should have done a bit more work work before he published his crap crap. I wish God's very best love to you all even JJ. Gregory A. Hill North Tulsa County Summer 2007 PS: I don't make any apologies for Chris. I have heard stories and I know the pain as well. I don't agree with everthing he has taught nor all the decisions he made. I am sure many people have been hurt. But he has clearly written that he has tried to get people to know about Christ - not about Chris. Having suffered the excommunication, I had to go to Christ. The end result is I became a better and stronger human being. Seems his action may have produced the desired result. For me being around Chris was wonderful, but being around Christ is much, much better. That stinky Chris, maybe one of these days I'll go up there to Maine and give him a real spanking. PPS: By the way, for some of you fellas. I have decided to go ahead and keep my WIGP textbooks. Your request for me to post the differences between PFAL and WIGP helped spark a renewed interest. My conclusion: WIGP may be the finest introductory course in how to study the Bible and learn about God, His Word, Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ available on the face of the planet today - no matter who produced it.

OK, here's one example of what I considered different. WordWollf asked for one example. There are many. But remember WordWolf asked for one. 2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. In PFAL - we were taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was - "People". In WIGP - we were taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was - "A Messenger of Satan." You have to draw your own conclusions here. A messenger can be translated as angel. So we have People vs. an Angel of Satan. Chris doesn't come out and say it. But it's quite different. I also know that Dr. KC Fred Price has taught the same thing later, he saw it as well. Satan had assigned one of his angels to buffet Paul. Evidently Paul was causing such havoc - he needed special attention - So Satan assigned specifically to him one of his angels. Quite different. For centuries people have wrestled with a thorn in the flesh and what it meant. It became quite clear what it meant in WIGP. As far as the other stuff about Chris - I don't even know what years he was the coach driver. Heck, I was probably hangin' with the ORU crowd back then. Still just a teen in school. Heck I may have been still in grade school. I know that people can grow and change over time. And Chris was cool when I was around him. Now I thought I could come and just post my thoughts here. I didn't know I would be grilled and cross examined. You guys are tough. Now can I come and post or not? Is this a free forum where people can just post what they think or not? You tell me ok? If it is not a place where I can freely post I will not come back. OK? Peace.

Sometimes I can be too hard on people. WordWolf - Just look at the headline of JJ article. PFAL Piracy - gets attention, that's it. Dirt sales. No Piracy involved whatsoever. But what an attention getting headline. First, in order to show examples, I would need to show comparisons of sectons of PFAL and WIGP side by side - bad news - violation of copyright. Second, it would require more working of these materials, sorry to me it's not a worthy endeavor. Been there - done that. We're moving forward. However, we will probably be putting our WIGP foundational class books up for sale on EBAY pretty soon - one has presenter #1 one's personal stamp and signature. Wow - maybe we'll get into the big money then? Cha Ching! Doubt it. Perhaps then we can up sell the Intermediate class books as well. Cha Ching! Doubt it. Anyway if you get them - perhaps you can do the work yourself. How's that for a proposition WordWolf? You do the work dude! Doesn't that make you excited? My personal experiences with Chris were in 1994-1997. I didn't know much about him before or after that except via GWTs and the newletters. But when I was there - I saw a wonderful example. I worked as volunteer staff for several months in 1995 and I never once heard him raise his voice. And the teachings and services were incredible. He was personally very, very patient and kind and helpful. Something I will never forget. Those other things you speak of - well I have only heard them second hand via anonymous posters. I never implied that anyone was lying. Seems to me you are overly suspicious and perhaps too critical. A brilliant analytical mind has one great weakness - being too critical. I heard Chris say once that for some people the more they knew the less loving they become. And I have no motive for lying. I have put my real name on what I have written. Your third question doesn't make sense. There was no "corps" programs training at Gartmore House from 1994-1995. No one to address except those near. He was very hands off. Teach people the Word and let them make their own decisions. Chris' behavior was exemplary during that time. Finally, I have also been an object of the wrath of Chris. But that would open a whole new can of worms. Suffice it to say that in 1997, my wife were made officially persona non grata. Excommunication. Removed from the list! The treachery, the accusations, the allegations and treatment by others that followed was most cruel. I heard one of my favorite teachers once say that the two cruelest things he knew of were politics and religion. I have yet to decide which one it was. Still, that doesn't invalidate what I saw with my own eyes and what I heard with my own ears during those wonderful years at Gartmore House in 1994-1995. Gregory A. Hill North Tulsa County Summer 2007

I just wanted to respond to some of the posts here on this topic and perhaps tell a real story. First, I concur with White Dove that certain statements written by JJ are in fact erroneous. Having sit through PFAL and WIGP numerous times, one will find that there are many differences. Perhaps PFAL and WIGP are similar in structure, but there are many differences. After reading the article that White Dove refers to years ago, I really couldn’t trust much of what JJ has written about anything. That’s what happens if you publish erroneous material. You lose credibility. Second, I have heard from others that Chris and Barbara live in Maine. I do know his home address and know he’s probably got a great view overlooking Lake Sebago. Good for him and Barbara – they deserve the best. If Chris is doing what I personally witnessed him doing at Gartmore House in 1994 and 1995, then you can be assured that he’s doing everything he knows to do to love God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength. He’s doing all he can to help others by performing the genuine labor of love that is required. No wasted time or motion. I have never seen another “man” work so hard in my life. I suspect that he was and still may be greatly underappreciated. Now he may not like me saying this because he has made it clear that he wants people to know Christ – not Chris. Chris, your welcome to kick my butt anytime. I miss you and the way you taught God’s Word. Furthermore, I have never met a teacher of God’s Word come close to the manner and content of what Chris taught at Gartmore House. It was some of the most profound, healing and delivering stuff I have ever heard or witnessed or experienced. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t burp occasionally though. He is human after all. But what an example. What a thing to have witnessed first hand. Finally, Coolchef – I am sorry that you D. A. interfered. DA tried to interfere with my marriage to a staff member at Gartmore before we were married. It occurred while eating lunch in the dining area at Gartmore House in the summer 1995. To me, he was out of line. Just one stupid comment after another and it began to grate on me. (Now there’s a real story behind the story that I have never shared with anyone but that isn’t the point. If DA would have approached the situation differently well then …) And perhaps he’s grown more in that category. I hope so. But anyway, the conversation deteriorated until DA finally popped the real question to my fiancé and me. “Do you want me to give you marriage counseling?” Now this ticked me off. My fiancé responded with - “Well – we’re not married yet.” Who was DA to offer us counseling? I didn’t know him and my wife didn’t know him that well either. Even though DA said they went “Way Way Back,” it was just plain puffed up arrogant BS. I think the conversation must have become a little loud because Chris Geer, who was sitting a few tables away, then stood up and asked the question for everyone to hear. What makes us think we’re qualified to counsel people? The room went silent. Chris then went on to explain many things that are involved with counseling. But still the question rang in my ears. What makes us think we are so qualified to counsel others? DA didn’t bother us anymore after that and I am sure perhaps he learned something. Now if he had approached the situation differently … I certainly didn’t understand the ramifications though. I repeated the story without naming DA to a married couple after our return to Oklahoma and was responded to with much treachery later on. I had no idea that that particular couple was being counseled by a certain what I would call, “arrogant incompetent boob” that Ste*e Arm*trong had “ordained“ to be in spiritual charge of the state Oklahoma after he left OK. Another one of them stated that he wanted me to start sending my fellowship’s ABS from Tulsa to him shortly after he was “ordained.” I didn’t appreciate the request! WHY was someone in OKC/Norman asking me for all of our ABS? He wasn’t feeding us. My good food was coming from elsewhere. I suspect that multiple 15 page grievous letters and numerous grievous telephone calls were made behind the scenes to Chris Geer after my conversation with this certain married couple. DA and SA and certain others turn out to be part of what I would call a network of “Way Way Back” types. I am not politically astute and it didn’t really matter to me how far you go “Way Way Back .” I have learned much since leaving Gartmore House in 1995 and my wife and I are still happily married. But I don’t allow the incompetent boobs in our home anymore and the treachery has ceased. We don’t visit their "sickening fellowships" anymore either. You could go to one feeling great - and then leave feeling ill. A bunch of junk. Thanks a lot Steve. So, I am sorry Coolchef for what happened – perhaps DA has become a better at counseling now? Finally, as far as Chris Geer goes, if I died tonight I have seen with my own eyes healing and deliverance from God via his magnificent example, teachings and service. If I died tonight, I have seen with my own eyes what God can do if people will listen and do what God wants them to do. If I died tonight, I have personally seen a man that walked like the men we read about “in the Bible.” I could write much more but ..... God’s best to you all. Gregory A. Hill North Tulsa County Summer 2007