Deciderator

We do the works because we are well-pleasing to God, not in order to be.

When we love God as our first priority, the rest follows naturally.

That do the trick?

I never questioned WhiteDove's word- which is that he was told various things regarding

a court case. I believe he was told those things and reported accurately what he was told.

Therefore, I believe he was telling the truth-he was told these things.

Whether those things THEMSELVES are true is a different question, and has

nothing to do with WD.

He also said he had seen documents with his own two eyes, so it was not hearsay.

Second, twi had a specific agenda, and approached their case with that agenda in mind.

I see no reason to think that their court case included cg and plagiarism.

(It's so rampant in twi that they probably don't admit it's wrong to most people, including court.)

I see no reason to believe twi reported he had used materials without attribution-

which he did, and which IS plagiarism, and which IS a crime.

What was an insurmountable hurdle is the crimes they TRIED to make stick.

Therefore, if all of the above is true, I can see believing twi was unable to grab rights back

from cg,

but I find it unsupportable to claim that this proved he could not have been found guilty of

matters never brought before the court,

or any claim that it WAS brought before the court.

I'm having trouble figuring out whether you think this suit had anything to do with the rights Mr. Geer had and that TWI was trying to get back or not.

Read all about it here.

Google had quite a few listings for Archangel Cologne!

Thanks Krysilis.

Is that some kinda wacky advertising or what?

I was cracking up reading about the "Archangel Man."

Y'know, not just anybody wears this cologne.....

Me, I'm happy with my Lagerfeld and my Polo....

Suda, that was very well done.

< Deciderator stands and gives Suda a round of polite golf applause >

I guess I would have a quibble or two, but they would be too insignificant to waste time on.

Having someone else decide for me what I believe and what I think about various people and things is patently ridiculous when I have posted much to give my opinion.

It was annoying for the first couple of people to misinterpret what I said, but as the number grew it became giggle-inducing.

I posted that something important I took from PFAL was "THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD!"

That caused a lot of negative reaction, but I don't think any of them disagreed with the point.

When all this arguing is going on, the Bible remains a closed book, unless someone wants to find a verse to club someone else with.

A major reason I have refrained from the all-out attack on Mr. Wierwille, Mr. Martindale and others is not because I idolize them.

I try (with varying success) not to make personal attacks on Christians because even the worst of them are God's children and stand righteous and holy without blame in love before Him.

To say otherwise is to commit idolatry by exalting my word above that of my heavenly Father.

I believe there is a better way than holding on to grudges for decades. I know from personal experience how easy it is to get in such a rut and keep that righteous indignation going. I am well aware of the energy that takes. I also know that there comes a time to understand that in life there are things which do not get resolved, wrongs that don't get righted and holding on to all that gets to be a burden that weighs us down.

We need to trust God more to take care of those things.

It is often not until we let them go that we see how burdened we are and how confining it is because we get so used to carrying that weight around it just seems natural.

But then we forgive and suddenly life becomes lighter and with the negativity gone, we are able to spring forward with a lil boogaloo in our step and a smile that comes quicker because we know we have done the right thing.

And knowing that God wants us to forgive our enemies makes it easier to carry out His will.

At least one of the "sinners" in the original list is rather interesting.

Peter Popoff was exposed as the charlatan and fraud that he is many years ago.

Yet he returned to do the exact same scam all over again (geeze, and I thought I was gullible!).

Yes, he's now in the midst of "Popoff repentance #2.

I forgot Popoff's scam, the name rings only a faint bell.

Besides Tilton, Reverend Ike was always good for laughs.

One scam I recall from back in the day was a buncha "psychic healers" in the Philippines.

They'd do what looked like a sort of deep tissue massage but they'd do this sleight of hand and make it look as if they were actually pulling tumors right out of people's bodies!

And there would be no wound or scar where their hands had actually entered the body!

I saw it on tv and they took one of these "tumors" to be tested and it turned out to be a chicken liver.

When they confronted the witch doctors the fun really began.

And who could ever forget Flip Wilson's "Church of What's Happenin' Now"?

Doglover,

Where it is true, we are saved from "the wrath", we are not saved from tribulation.

So the God of all comfort will not comfort us in all our tribulation?

Prophets of Doom ---- good name for a band

That banner ad for Archangel Cologne - it's a goof, right?

Right?

The more we forgive, the lighter our burden becomes.

When I have been slow to forgive, in order to do so I had to expend energy keeping that anger going and once I forgave the person, that energy could be used more positively.

Like I keep saying,

I never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world

If there's an anonymous source, that's one thing- but in that case, there's acknowledgement

that there IS a source.

Any further explanation I'd defer to our poster who makes his living in writing,

since he knows all about this subject.

Woodward doesn't have ANY footnotes and reading his books one clearly sees reference to other material.

He is not alone in this, either.

I spend a lot of time researching terrorism and espionage and spend a pretty good amount of time going through footnotes and I could buy us both Rolls Roces if I had a nickel for every time I looked for a quotation that wasn't cited in the footnotes.

And some authors have a way of muddying the waters by doing a sort of footnotes dillio referring generally to sources that were used on a page of text when it is clear they are not giving every source.

I agree with you that plagiarism is a big deal.

Besides, I think this discussion has gone far afield from what he meant in the

first place.

Clearly a court decided what was brought before them was legal.

(I'm still presuming something WAS brought before them.)

We have no proof that what you're suggesting was approved was ever discussed,

let alone subject to a court ruling.

More likely, twi wanted the rights entirely 100% theirs again, and anything else

was either glossed over or never discussed.

(Then again, that's my best guess as well.)

Yeah, we don't have evidence of a court case, but just for argument's sake we can take, who was it, WhiteDove? at his word.

And I think it can be therefore accurately stated that Mr. Geer did nothing illegal, contrary to Mr. Juedes' assertion.

The fact that TWI never apparently issued a restraining order or a cease and desist order or had Mr. Geer charged with any number of crimes may indicate the strength of their case. Given their litigious reputation and the state of affairs between them and Mr. Geer, this would seem reasonable to expect.

The first thing a prosecutor must determine is whether a crime took place.

Apparently that was an insurmopuntable hurdle.

And with TWI bringing the case, they would have had plenty of time to get their case together and look for the most advantageous venue.

I imagine it is also fair to say the court did not bring to the table the biases you, I, Mr. Juedes and the rest of us here have.

Mr. Juedes' article needs a new title as well as some revision.

I have not had Mr. Geer's WIGP class, but I have seen the results of two major research projects on the verses regarding the usage of pnuema hagion and pistis. I think it is fair to assume that the new work done in those efforts would be reflected in the class.

Oh, and on the tapes and in the written presentation in Future Considerations, mention was made of Mr. Wierwille and how this new research reflects growth in the field, which Mr. Wierwille expected.

Except I did see some documents and I also talked with two people who were there as eyewitnesses.

Apparently a court of law saw some documents, too.

Unlike here, both sides presented their arguments and the issue was settled, legally.

Wordwolf, go into any bookstore and you will find books in the non-fiction section where the author does not cite sources.

Bob Woodward is an example of a guy who has no footnotes in his books.

Where another work is quoted from, I like to see footnotes, too.

Rather than try to put my position into your own words, just leave them as I wrote them and you'll get a better sense of my opinion, rather than a reinterpretation of it.

I'll be glad to amplify or explain anything I have said.

Mr. Juedes made a charge of "piracy," - a crime.

The issue was apparently settled in court, where both sides presented their cases. TWI lost, showing Mr. Jeudes' charge of a crime to be rejected in a court where issues of criminality are settled.

It's easy to sling around charges on the internet where talk is cheap but quite another to make actual criminal complaints and follow through in the court system.

Clearly a court has decided that what Mr. Geer is doing is legal.

My further point about TWI not acting like a victim otherwise still stands.

I just remembered that at least for the last class I took there was someone from the Limb there standing by the VCR like one-a the Pope's Swiss Guards.

It's only a matter of time before Snoop Dog or P-Diddy or someone samples PFAL and then it's game on!

I was definitely released learning that we don't go to heaven right when we die. From the age of 12 I had contimplated suicide because why should we all be living down here in misery when we could be in heaven -- and then why did other's get to enjoy it longer? Thessalonians taught in the class made perfect sense to me -- as well as spiritual issues. I am happy I know what I know.

Nice point, outfield.

The idea that the dead immediately go to heaven is indeed an argument for suicide.

Since I learned that no one gets to heaven until Christ comes back, I have seen a few news articles where a child killed another and rationalized it as saying it was ok because the other child was going to heaven where they'd be happier.

Since I got the Hope anchored in my heart, I have been blessed by the benefits it brings to life.

Having the Hope brings joy on different levels and helps us stand steadfast on God's Word.

AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I for one won't argue against that one, mainly because I can see it from Scripture.

Forgiveness may be DIFFICULT, but that does not make forgiveness WRONG.

====

Having established that (in your mind and mine, at any rate),

there was a SECOND issue, besides "simple" forgiveness.

What's your current thinking on the OTHER issue raised?

Allowing those who have sinned as much as you or I back in office?

I think that must be done on a case-by-case basis, exceppt for Tilton - he's so entertaining he should be allowed anything.

To allow someone back in power who has messed up massively would probably take revelation.

To take a popular punching bag here Craig Martindale.

I won't go into my own differences with the man, but even after what he's done I think it is possible for him to be a blessing to God's people. How and in what capacity are between him and God.

Here, what seems to be forgotten is justice must be tempered with mercy. Otherwise it is not justice.

The more we forgive, the better we become.

Forgiveness, like love, should not be doled out stingily and we should not seek any opportunity or excuse to not forgive.

Well I've certainly run into my fair share of dishonesty here.

I swear, when I posted in the PFAL thread I never seened so much lying since I got stuck on a plane full of Bush impersonators!

I get your point about an organization and we all know leaders must be of good character.

What we also need is justice when determining when someone has erred.

Do you remember the McMartin Pre-School case?

How about the Dyuke rape case?

For me I have seen too much tearing peopole down and it looks to me as if thosde who are so caught up in what has taken place with TWI that they have little time and effort to give to truly bless people. They go on rants that leave them so sour that it carries over into other things.

I dealt with a lot of this stuff back in the 1900s!

I have no need to go over it again and again for decades, which appears to be the career path that some here are on.

So you're saying they're going to claim they had a case of the vapors?

Good point WhiteDove - why would they try to get something back if they never gave it away in the first place?

So far we have several GSpotters who have posted they believe Mr. Geer had the rights toi the material - and apparently still does.

I'm still waiting to hear why the vicitms haven't acted like victims.

And why does Mr. Jeudes want Mr. Geer to assign credit to PFAL when he knows that credit lies elsewhere?

Skyrider, I never cared about pyramids and organization diagrams or who's up, who's down, who's in or who's out.

I don't care who the country coordinators are, why they left or any of that. I don't care who can drop the most names, who worked at HQ or who has an autographed picture of one of the bigshots.

All I care about is getting the Word.

All that other stuff just gets in the way and doesn't bless me.

oh yeah, you're god now ?

He does have an invisible avatar..................................................................no, wait, so do I!

Since NY State went with Gartmore when the 1989 split came down, you would have fit right

in locally here. I went to Gartmore, too.

My twig coordinator gave me and some others material Mr. Geer taught, the History of the Mystery was one, but we also fellowshipped with the Limb of D.C. He didn't push people either way, he just taught the Word the best he could and gave us what he believed would bless us the most.

He got nailed for copying the material and was blackballed. When I went to Gartmore, right after I got there Mr. Geer picked me up hitchiking and I told him I had with me some stuff I understood I was not supposed to have and wanted to give it back. I told him I had made no copies and that it blessed me much. I told him he could send me packing for it, but I insisted he make things right with my twig coordinator and he did. He also told me to keep the material.

My twig coordinator did not tell us about the whole Gartmore split or when he gave us things like what I mentioned above.

None of us cared what the source was.

And not only did this twig coordinator not mention it, but I had made several trips to Paris and the believers there didn't, either.

We didn't talk about what the brass was doing.

We were too busy talking about God's Word.

We've had threads on that long ago, but feel free to start a new one on the subject- we're probably overdue.

No need.

We're in one now.

Check the thread title - no, here, I'll cut and paste it for you:

A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL, Do you still believe them?

Nice one from Oparah.

It's easy to forgive those who have not really hurt you.

It's rather challenging to forgive those who have hurt you much.

It's like loving.

It's easy to love your friends and family, but not so easy when it is someone who annoys or hurts you.

We become better people the more we love and the more we forgive.

And why wait for someone to apologize?

Just forgive-em ahead of time and watch life get lighter and it become easier to love the person who offended you....

Actually, you're adamant in ignoring SOME of what I posted,

and are quoting PART of what I posted to draw an incorrect conclusion.

Are you taking that part back?

Or do you believe Mr. Geer had the rights to the material?

"You know, there's been a LOT posted about plagiarism on this messageboard,

including many links to messageboards by people in the legal profession or literary professions

where their abilities to determine what is legal use and what is NOT legal use is critical to

their financial survival.

I know, you arrived recently, and have not seen these threads recently.

I shall take that into account, and help you out."

I'm looking forward to the part about it being illegal to publish what is rightfully yours to publish.

"As someone just posted on another thread, twi actually DID sue over this, quite a bit. They just didn't WIN.

They kept this information under wraps, and didn't tell people. Standard polict for twi."

Yeah, I saw that after my post went up.

More evidence that Mr. Geer has been within his rights all along.

"Furthermore, you seem to have this bad habit of skipping every single time I've explained

why suing-in this circumstance- doesn't work, even thought the crime of plagiarism has

been committed."

Alleged.

"I have already posted the following- which you seem to have missed completely, on this thread:

"When it comes to "why didn't they sue when he made it again under a new name", I'm not a copyright lawyer, and

would guess that there is a murky ground there where his granted rights might grant him the rights to use the material.

Thus, there was no point suing someone when they weren't going to win. "

Because he was not breaking the law all along.

Your guess is the same as mine, that Mr. Geer has a right to do what he has been doing. That's at least twice now you have said so.

"At twi, it's currently all about the money. Follow the money.""

TWI sees money going to Mr. Geer that, according to you is rightfully theirs.

Suddenly TWI is no longer all about the money, eh?

""Why wasn't cg sued? He held part of the copyright, so it was a crime, but the injured party can't sue him for

damages, since HE held the legal rights, so LEGALLY, he was the injured party.

That means that what he did was MORALLY wrong, and LEGALLY wrong, but no one could sue on behalf of

society under current laws-they'd have to sue on behalf of the ones with the LEGAL rights,

which he cleverly held."

Fancy that - suing someone for doing something legal after claiming that publishing material you have the rights to is MORALLY and LEGALLY wrong.

"However, lawsuits aren't cheap. They cost money, lots of money. Apparently, nobody

with a lot of money cares enough to direct a lawsuit against cg for his actual breaking

of the law- which is a felony when practiced at that level."

"There's where your supposition lies- that piracy/breaking the law REQUIRES "making money with the intellectual property

of twi." "

Why not call the po-lice or FBI?

If they have title to the property then let them have him busted for theft of intellectual property, fraud, racketeering, interstate transportation of stolen goods, etc.

Then upon conviction in this open-and-shut case ask the court for damages.

"Actually, it's time to put this obsessing over the word "piracy" out to pasture."

"Piracy" is the charge made by Mr. Jeudes.

You can look it up - it's right there in the title of his article.

"First of all, the word I would use-and DO use- is PLAGIARISM, since that's a legal term and we can

all see (whether we WISH to see) that vpw AND cg plagiarized.

Second of all, the usage of "piracy" is legitimate.

As I already posted....

"Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary.

"piracy:2 the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception,

especially in infringement of a copyright." "

You don't seem to be aware that "piracy" is also a legal term.

For future reference, instead of going to Webster's for a legal definition, the accepted source for legal definitions is Blacks Law Dictionary. Then you won't make embarrassing statements like:

" According to my collegiate dictionary (which is acceptable up through college, which is why it's a COLLEGIATE

dictionary and is only exceeded by an UNABRIDGED dictionary), the term "piracy" IS CORRECT in this usage. "

Although yes, "piracy" may be used thusly.

"Again, however, I don't see the reason for this obsession with ONE WORD Juedes used. "

Because it is not "piracy" if you use material you have the authority to use.

You and several others have said Mr. Geer has the rights to publish what he has published.

Still waiting for an explanation of why the victims aren't acting like victims....