Deciderator

Shall we forgive them all?

I say forgive to the max.

It makes for a better life.

Carrying around bitterness over a perceived wrong will eat you up from the inside.

It can be a heavy burden.

Looking for excuses to not forgive is downright pathetic.

Forgive all you can and then a little more.

That's just how I roll............

It is my understanding that copies of all copyrighted books and films are in the Library of Congress. I may be wrong, it's been a long time since I did any learning on the subject.

I can understand, but not condone someone copying a class to help them study later.

I don't much like copying CDs and don't do the file-sharing thing.

(I took PFAL near as I can guess between 1988 and 1991. One class had already started and when I showed up for it, they said I needed to be at the beginning and couldn't sit in. This one was done up as sort of an "event," I guess with decorations in the house and quite a buffet laid out during breaks)

One thing that has been in my head is something my first twig coordinator said once when we were talking about research. He said we "re - search" because everything has been worked at one time or another by somebody.

I don't know who first put "Formed and Made and Created / Body and Soul and Spirit" together, I'm just glad to know it.

Same with the Mystery.

It wouldn't surprise me to find someone had put together a "history of the mystery" before Chris Geer did, and may even have done a better job, but I sure am glad to have Geer's tapes and having it written out in Future Considerations.

Same with Bible Kinds of Faith.

There are other things I could name, but that's enough to make the point....

Nicely done, Suda. You pretty much captured what I said and my motivation.

Pointing out hot buttons, pet peeves and raw nerves is a very good way of sorting through all this.

It would be nice to see a list of all the things people said they still kept from PFAL.

Party on!

When I had a twig I wasn't micromanaged by anyone.

I had the meetings when and where I wanted, anyone who wanted to come was welcome and what was taught was up to me.

They weren't happy when I didn't tell them who was giving what in the abundant sharing, but I just ignored their grumbling and did things the way I wanted to.

Of course when I announced I was going to Gartmore it ruffled feathers.

I was welcome at another twig but I didn't go much because I was "the guy who went to Gartmore" and I didn't want to be a distraction.

Not being connected to TWI didn't make much difference other than I didn't have their branch and limb meetings to go to.

Otherwise I just kept doing what I always did with my twig.

I am pleased I didn't get caught up in the drama that still plagues others.

Thanks for your comments AnotherDan.

I see where you're coming from and I hear you. In my heart and mind there are two things to consider here. First - while it isn't for me to judge - God has given us criteria to ascertain a wolf in sheep's clothing for a reason.

Second, I can certainly forgive a person and I have forgiven him. In order to do that I must still recognize that I have things to forgive him for.

When I forgive someone of something, the memory of what it was fades pretty quickly.

When I think back on my marriage and women I have had affairs with, some of which ended in arguments that never were resolved, I just can't recall what they were.

It's not a memory problem, for most things my memory is excellent.

It's just that when there has been an issue where I was wronged and forgave the other person, I have a way of just forgetting what it was about.

At first I consciously set it aside because, jeepers, I just forgave the person, right?

After that - it just goes away and I'm glad to have my load lightened in that fashion.

Jonny's story about his father has been with me for quite some time now.

Tremendous.

I've been blessed with a couple of pm exchanges in the last few days. One Spotette has been particularly nice to me and helped me see a thing or two about this place...

Sorry, I was not around for the fog years.

I do remember, though, that in the early 1970s, some of us who were on the class crew(Stringing chairs, running the tape recorder, etc.) wanted to get together and listen to the class tapes in an unofficial setting.

We were quickly informed that the tapes were NEVER, EVER to be listened to outside of an official class setting.

Knowing what I do now about sales presentations, I understand the logic.

Outside of its showcase setting it might have been a bit more transparent.

Couldn't have anybody listening to it without the proper emotional hype, dontcha know!

I took PFAL three times and there was no hype.

We walked in, there was a little small talk and then we all sat down and they turned on the tv

Stealing is stealing no matter what is being taken.

I've always wondered if there is a copy of PFAL at the Library of Congress or wherever copies of copyrighted material is kept.

I bet it can be heard free of charge if one just knows where to go.

The wigp has been claimed to be an improved version of pfal-

and even you're admitting that-

BUT PFAL IS NEVER CITED ANYWHERE IN WIGP.

That's plagiarism.

It's not "right" when ANYONE does it.

You forgot what you posted in post #197:

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

Mr. Geer had the right to do what he did.

This is supported by the fact that none of you is able to get around, and that is if Mr. Geer "pirated" someone else's (TWI) intellectual property and even after "The Fog" lifted, NONE OF THE SO-CALLED "VICTIMS" OF THIS THEFT ARE ACTING LIKE VICTIMS!

* No one is calling the po-lice or FBI

* No one who holds the rights to PFAL is crying foul

* No restraining or cease and desist orders have been issued

* No lawsuits have been launched

This does not fit with long entrenched TWI zealousy toward PFAL and other books and tapes, nor does it fit with allegations of them going after those who trouble them, nor does it fit with the enmity between Geer and TWI which should have caused them to pull out all the stops to prevent what Mr. Geer has been doing for a looooooong time now.

Nope.

Time to put this "piracy theory" out to pasture............................

Geez WW,

I don't know. I did pray for my daughter over the cell phone while she was away at sea and sick with fever about a month ago, and daggone is she didn't get healed. It was something. She said that within a half hour she was fine. It was great for her to see God's healing power.

That one reminds me of a couple of times I got healed.

Once I was feeling wretchedly ill and just couldn't make it to twig at another chap's home. I called him up to tell him I couldn't make it.

We prayed and I was feeling somewhat better right away and in about 5 or 10 minutes was feeling fit as a fiddle.

The other one was a time I went to twig and had injured my neck at work. I don't know what was wrong with it, all I know was it was hurting like the dickens when I got to twig and I had to hold my head just so to keep shooting pains at bay. I had to hold my Bible up in front of me and couldn't bend over it like I normally did.

So we had a nice meeting with songs, manifestations, a teaching, ABS and then fellowship.

I can still recal standing in the kitchen when the twig coordinator asked me if there was anything he could do for me and my hand went up automatically to my neck as I said, "Yes, you can heal uhhhhhhhh, uhhhhhhhhhh, uhhhhhhhh, well, I was going to say you could take care of my neck but it's doing just fine!" I then was quite amazed to be able to turn it every which way and did so, wildly twisting it all around, thrilled to have full range of motion, no more pain.

I learned to not, at least try not, to underestimate the power of God's Word and speaking in tongues.

Sorry.. this legal rodent can only offer a few guesses..

honestly though, I think that geer knows where enough skeletons are hidden that they just won't mess with him..

Whaya think the chances are he's got a group of trunks ckock-a-block full of Krugerrands?

The point is, we don't really know and to pretend one does is clearly an exercise in bovine byproduct.

Accusations of criminal behaviour (like "piracy") that are unsubstantiated by fact should not be made so flippantly.

Hey, doan nobody sleep on the .45 cal. derringer......................

For a "hunting" rifle, I likes my surplus M1 Garand

Should I feel bad because I feel hunky dory right now?

Yep, I had a pretty productive day and I'm feeling pretty good myself.

Some of it I credit to the lessons I learned on the Hope and then some other things I had not been taught on the subject.

Yep yep yep-yep-yep, life is pretty good where I am...

Great testimony Jonny! It really inspires me. I pray that there are many more great miracles and salvations like this in your life and those you inspire.

IMO that's what life's all about, loving Jesus and doing the works He did and greater. Lord give us more of you!

Stunning!

The sad part is there are probably some here who wisht it had never happened....

When I read through accounts from threads like A few big things I learned in PFAL.......where one elevates the man, vpw, and "his doctrine".....

What part of PFAL "elevates the man, vpw, and "his doctrine"?

Yeah......I learned some good things in pfal.

Yeah......at the time, I swallowed its whole -- hook, line and sinker. Young and naive and rebellious, I found a group that had a bigger-than-life zeal to "go and grow with God." And, I fully invested years (decades) into teaching and ministering to others in the valleys of life. Little did I realize that wierwille and his cronies were deceivers and being deceived.

Who was deceiving who?

Here you were. setting yourself out to minister others "in the valley of life" when you were not in it to serve God and His people, but because you were a joiner who wanted to be in the right club!

And now it looks as if you can't take personal; responsibility for your own false motives, naivete and elevating a man in a way that was uncalled for.

But now you're "spiritually acute," eh?

I think the money is the simpler solution. Unlike the Mcmull*n tragedy, a trial would probably cost them, say, close to a million dollars. Add to this, geer probably knows as much a rosie about the inner workings and corruption.

I don't know about this Mcmull thing.

How could a cut and dried "piracy" case cost a million dollars?

It's open-and-shut, isn't it?

They show Geer published, they show their title and ol' CG is off to making little ones out of big ones as a guest of the state.

And by taking all the proof to the state or to the FBI, why should a criminal prosecution cost them anything?

I think it boils down to two things:

1. Money. Absolute, horrible waste of time, money and effort to get no return.

How do you think it goes down knowing Mr. Geer is out there making money offa their propitty, doing whatever he pleases and in effect, representing them, yet they have no control?

As vindictive as they are at HQ?

Nope, still not fitting.

2. The POSSIBILITY (in my OPINION) of blackmail here. They don't want the hornet's nest stirred up, any more than it is already. Look what ONE CASE did to their "prestige" and reputation in WayDale days.

So they have no prestige to lose?

Blackmail?

Whoooo-wheeeee! the unsubstantiated allegations of crimes are starting to add up here. How about burglary? Bigamy? Murder?

When they went after Rob*rege, they had an ax to grind. As long as he represented himself, he was a rather easy target.

They would rather go after easy, "weak" targets.. like Rob*rege, McM*llen. That way, they can at least have an illusion of "prevailing".

Nope, it doesn't add up unless we invent crimes and go into these contortions of first he's "itty bitty" and then he's got the intimidating presence of Man Mountain Jack....

No, I think you were right the first time in post #203

Actually, if I remeber correctly, geer incorporated der vey of Great Britain, and the organization over the pond had publishing rights to vic's "works".

Not geer, in the united states in maine somewhere.

You just got a tad off on whether he had U.S. rights, because look what he's done!

and look who agrees:

Wordwolf, post #197:

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

If Geer was ever pressed with the charge of piracy, I imagine all he would need do is counter with the claim that the majority of material in his class was actually derived from Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" which is safely in the public domain.

Any supposed, unique contributions by Wierwille may be extremely minor by comparison. So few as to arguably fall within the perimeters of "fair use".

Rascal, post #196:

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

Maybe the local DA doesn't have the heart, or time and resources to prosecute a guy for imitating Napoleon..

that's the other thing. Even when loy's "preclivities" were revealed.. why no grand jury investigation, no criminal prosecution? He DID perform criminal acts.

Wasn't there a lawsuit with lawyers and stuff?

Didn't he have to step down - hell get kicked out?

In other words, face consequences?

Why no consequences to Mr. Geer's alleged piracy?

Given TWIs legal bills, how much could it cost to send a cease and desist order?

Nope, given their zealous protection of other intellectual property, this isn't making sense.

They don't have the time, the staff, the money, the stamina, to pursue every teeny weenie moglet in their jurisdiction, who treats the employees as a personal harem..

I occasionally take a vacation in Maine (going in September) and I have noticed some pretty hard corps folks when it comes to traditional American values and anyone abusing employees in a harem would get the whole town in the streets with torches, pitchforks and my favorite, cudgels. Crime seems low, so it's not like prosecutors are too busy.

Nope, still not fitting.

And since we're talking interstate commerce, couldn't the FBI be brought in?

Nope, this is not going together at all.

Only real "trial" these jackasses will ever get will be public castigation on the internet..

it may be second best, but better than nothing I guess..

That's not a "real" trial or anything close.

They had better in the old Soviet Union.

Nope.

The simplest solution appears to be the one you, rascal and wordwolf have all posted, and that is that Mr. Geer has had the rights all along and so has done nothing wrong.

The "piracy" charge is clearly bogus.

ALL FOUR OF US AGREE!

I dunno. Probably same reason that not everybody who exceeds seventy five miles per hour on the highway gets a ticket. Technically, they are liable to "prosecution" if caught.

Hasn't Mr. Geer been caught?

It would seem a little thing during one of those meetings with the legal team that they could file an injunction, a stop-and-desist order - somthing that would fit with what we know about TWI protecting copywrighted material.

Nope, it doesn't fit.

The first question in the good old usa, unless somebody has enough money to burn, and a big enough ax to grind, is, "how much money does the guy have?"

"Little itty bitty teenie weenie" was more than just a jab at the guy- I don't think he or his organization have the resources to make such a claim worth pursuing. He represents rather small potatos.

Maybe..

maybe secretly those who run der vey actually LIKE him. He WAS instrumental in getting loy over the deep end..

or maybe he "has" something on them, and they'd rather let him milk a little out of ole vic's work, rather than open his mouth..

maybe they have some kind of agreement..

who knows..

Thjose are good guesses I suppose, but not really the way a victim responds, is it?

Especially when the victim is supposedly cash tight and they see a chap making money offa their intellectual propitty?

If we use Occam's razor, isn't the more likely explanation that Mr. Geer has rights to the property and what he is doing is legal?

Rascal, you can exclude me from your "us".

Me too.

The way things went down, I just kept on a-truckin.'

I had a great twig coordinator, what can I say?

Rascal, I wish you had been in my twig.

And later when I went to Paris, I wish you could have hung out with believers I know there who also did much to help me stay focused on the Word and not politics or accusations or all the other trauma. A couple of times I tried to talk about it and they just hijacked the discussion to the Word, and usually something unrelated to what was going on.

`Cid...forgivness...doesn`t negate our clear biblical instructions concerning a man who does what vp did.

So who do we forgive?

And who do we love?

Did I learn anything from pfal??? Well cid to be honest..the things I learned in pfal, though they seemed innocuos and harmless on the surface...invariably were the basis for a springboard into the false teachings that so harmed us.

The scriptures that I was taught invariably became the foundation for the bars of my prison...the ammunition for the weapon held to my head to enforce somebody elses will.

So the mystery, justification, sonship, all spiritual blessings put you in prison?

Or was it your approach to those who taught you this stuff?

Do you think if you had been on the periphery the way I was it may have been different?

Actually, if I remeber correctly, geer incorporated der vey of Great Britain, and the organization over the pond had publishing rights to vic's "works".

Not geer, in the united states in maine somewhere.

I also seem to remember that whatever incorporation he was head of was dissolved..

far as I know, at the present moment, he doesn't have rights to anything..

So why no lawsuit?

Why no injunctions, no 'cease and desist' orders, especially given the sensitivity to how classes were presented and all? Not even an attempt to have the man charged, much less convicted in a court of law, which is how we do things in the U.S.

Not one "crime victim" is responding in the way such "crime victims" typically respond, are they?

It's not making sense.

There must be a way to sensibly put together the known facts including the lack of legal action, the victim's non-response and come up with a reasonable explanation.

Maybe some namecalling would help.

Perhaps you could make a face.

Yeah, that's it. make a face so no one sees you avoiding my point.

`cid...that isn`t what I said at all...I didn`t say vpw was God.

I DID say that it was difficult to see God given credit for a man who created such wholesale destruction in peoples lives.....shrug..

Well the way it was put it sure looked all jumbled up together to me and getting things all out of whack as to God being responsible for what VP did and all.

What you are asking us to do cid .....is in complete oposition from what scriptures tell us.

Really?

Tell me whose trespasses we should forgive.

And be honest, did you learn nothing from PFAL?

Me, I'd never even heard of the mystery till I got to a twig, much less my righteousness, justifiucation, redemption, etc.

No one had ever pointed out that eternal life was indeed eternal, or that I had the proof when I SIT, or that I have all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies.

Did you know all that stuff before you ever heard of TWI?

If you say you did, I'll take your word for it.

__________________________________________________________________

Jonny - YIKES WHAT A STORY!

You know, you really need to work on your ingratitude. It's just not up to snuff by some people's standards.

Well...ok...I will try to put this in perspective....When someone says... praise GOD for vic wierwille...or praise GOD for pfal....and you are one of the ones that he destroyed...or you watched a sister or brother lose their life because of what he did personally or eronious doctrine that he taught.....It seems like God is being assigned blame for what happened to you...there are huge trust issues....where was God for me? why did THIS person deserve to be delivered...and others of us have our lives unalterably damaged????

There's the problem.

Presuming God was VP or VP was God.

The Catholics have the same dillio going with the Pope and the Mormons with their prophet.

We know from God's Word that He is always there for us when someone is being hurt, when someone is lying, when an accurate knowledge of His Word is genuinely sought.

God is no respector of persons (after years of churches, I never heard that till I got to twig).

It's one thing to make a mistake in putting too much trust in someone, we've all done it.

It's another to fail to come up out of that misery but to dwell in it so.

And another thing to not just dwell in it, but to refuse to acknowledge what you know to be true - there were things about the Bible you learned from VP Wierwille that were true.

To make it a cut and dried black or white thing - he's either Satan or God is wrong.

VP Wierwille was a man who did good and bad in his life.

When speaking of him and discussing his entire life, all aspects should be discussed. When we are discussing PFAL, then let's talk about PFAL. Same with Living Victoriously or Jesus Christ Is Not God for example.

It's like in a political discussion about economics in the 1990s and the discussion is centering around unemployment dropping and the budget getting balanced and then out of the blue some ricky chimes in that Clinton got a beejay.

I mean, really.

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

So there was no crime of "piracy" committed, right?

The gentleman is accusing Chris Geer of "piracy" - stealing - for which we have laws and a system for dealing with such crimes.

It's not stealing or "piracy" if the person gives you something freely or you have rights to it. If what you said is the case, there was no crime of "piracy."

Given the situation between Mr. Geer and TWI, it is reasonable that if Mr. Geer was making money with the intellectual property of TWI then TWI would sue or at least issue a cease-and-desist order.

A court could not only award money the classes have made, but additional damages as well if there's a case.

They have not and I have seen no reasonable explanation why.

This puts a great big torpeda in Mr. Jeudes boat, in my view.

As for the rest, it is not up to me to coin phrases or expressions for someone elses posts.