happyheart

Happyheart. I'm sorry, I think the words that I used were much stronger than yours. my bad.

Your phrase was ". . . I don't appreciate the damagae he (LCM) caused by . . ." and in the ending paragraph

" . . . some believers are angry at top leadership. . ."

I am glad that you have strong feelings against something so hurtful taking place.

It should, IMO, make us angry that someone can hold a bible on the one hand, and be so abusive on the other.

Thanks for explaining Wing. I had a hard time explaining what I was trying to get at in that post. Later I thought I could have made it shorter by asking "What upsets you more about your involvement with twi? Top leaders, leaders you were directly involved with, your family, other believers or yourself?

I probably come across as pretty mild at times. It's because I am. I was angry for a long time-but I'm not anymore, for the most part. It took a while. I'm still working through why I allowed myself to be abused and used. Why I sacrificed my well being and friendships with people who cared about me to please people who did not care about me. I think it's important no matter what stage we are all at that we discuss what happened. We can help each other. We were in the same boat for various reasons. It helps me to explore that.

Have a great day everyone

Glad to hear you have some anger over this, happyheart; or least some agony.

??????? Don't know what you mean by that.

I was thinking that I don't hate LcM. I don't appreciate the damage he caused by any means. But I think the bigger problem was the people closest to him that encouraged his insane behavior. If my husband ranted and raved out of control in public, I would do something about it or hopefully our friends and family would do something. I would at the very least be embarrassed, not standing by applauding.

It seems like LcMmOg was unstable with a narcisistic personality disorder. I think the people closest to him let his behavior go unchecked because they were busy promoting their own agenda's behind the scenes. He provided an effective distraction. He wasn't the brightest crayon in the box and I think they knew that and used it to their advantage. (Seriously, didn't he clue into the fact that just about nobody in this world thinks preachers having affairs is acceptable? I know he watched the news. How dumb do you have to be?)

I just shake my head at how I believed he was the MOG and that I followed his whacky advice. But if I think about some WC leaders and what they did-I actually hold them more responsible for the viciousness that went on. Instead of being friends, they were users and abusers. They had closer access and used what they knew about good people against them.

I remember the crazy rantings from teachings, but the actions I saw leaders take were the hardest to get over. Especially some limb coords I knew-they were horrible human beings.

I know some believers who are mostly angry at top leadership and some who are mostly angry at their families.

Just wonder what the feelings are others have on this.

Hi Everyone,

A friend asked me to join this with her. It's a best selling book by Eckhart Tolle that a lot of people say is wonderful. I skimmed through my friends book today but I need to buy a copy and read it this week if I'm going to do it. The online class starts Monday 3/3/08 and goes for 10 weeks. It's an interactive web event and both Eckhart and Oprah will be taking questions. There will be a chat room and discussion groups.

Is anyone else going to do this?

Does anyone have experience with this type of internet class and/or Eckhart Tolle?

Thanks.

When we were in the upper left corner of the country, the TC's were a couple we had known for years. They now had four children. The woman looked down on my son and was always seeking an excuse to yell at him for something. One time she had baked a cheesecake for twig dessert. Her children were small, one yet in diapers. She cut each of them a tiny slice. She then gave my son, a strapping 12-year-old, an identical slice. He scarfed it down AND ASKED FOR MORE, PLEASE! She castigated him up one side and down the other for his bad manners! No one EVER asks for seconds on dessert! He needs to learn to take tiny bites and SAVOR his DESSERT instead of eating it down like a DOG! Then she started on me. I pointed out that he was not a tiny two year old, but 12. She had brothers, right? She should know how much fuel an adolescent male requires.

Another time she jumped all over me about "nervous habits." Seems her eldest had begun drumming his fingers on the table. She was sure he had learned this from my son, as he was a jumpy kind of kid. She informed she DID NOT PERMIT her children to have nervous habits and I was to forbid my child to do so, as her precious angels might learn something bad from him!

Right before my son took what was the last PFAL class in the area, she and her husband "invited" me to plant flowers in the planter at their front door. This was a big, permanent brick thing. The husband kindly provided the flowers and she called us to come over in a downpour to plant them. Son and I came over. He was freezing and asked if he could stand just inside the door. She refused, because she didn't want him around her children. She actually told him he was a bad influence and she didn't want her children picking up his bad habits and attitudes. Then she and her husband got into a fight, him screaming in her face, while she smiled sweetly up at him, right in front of the open front door.

I took my son and we left, without planting the rest of the flowers. Once they settled their differences, he called me and apologized and she actually drove over to our apartment to get me to come plant the rest of the flowers. I wish I could say those flowers were soon growing where the sun can't find them, but I cratered before the combined force of their will and their conviction of their own perfection and planted them, but I left my kid at home.

It is absolutely amazing to me when I look back on my TWI years and think that I tolerated any of this madness. If someone even twitched at my grandson, let alone said such hateful things to him, she would be wearing cheesecake from head to toe, plus a few bruises. Live and learn, I guess.

PS: The cheesecake wasn't even all that great. My father-in-law can bake a cheesecake to die for. Put them side-by-side on a table, and hers would slink away in shame.

Oh, and he makes sure the grandson gets extra helpings! (my kind of great-grandpa)!

WG

It's amazing that they couldn't see what wonderful friends they had in front of them. Really, for as bad as it was for you-they are the real loosers. They could have relaxed and had some wonderful believers as friends. I bet she was influenced by all the wrong doctrine on child rearing and suspicious since believers were not encouraged to adopt.

I'm glad you have a grandson. It's awesome being a grandma, isn't it? God bless you Watered garden.

Since son was 8 when we got him, it's hard for me to determine what is TWI-influenced and what is a result of his 6 1/2 years in foster care, which were pretty awful. He still has major issues with trust and honesty that could have resulted from either situation, or both.

The important thing is that he knows I love him and I know he loves me. And, as Peter wrote, love covers a multitude of sins.

WG

I can see where that would be difficult to determine at times. Or if some of it was just every day kid stuff that most people go through. Issue's can sure get clouded when inept busy bodies interfere with a family. But you're right, love covers all of that and the sin of leaders who abused the trust of faithful believers and their children.

Seems like your son knew the Nazi Way Corps were nuts. Probably smarter than most adults running the show at the time. Good for him.

This is something I wonder about quite often. I'll never know how our son would have turned out without TWI's influence on our lives...both good and bad. Our daughter was born post-twi (thank God almighty...there's more to that story, but another time...).

On the plus side, our son seems to have a "nose" for finding good-hearted friends. I find it funny that in his group of friends there are at least two who had charismatic religious backgrounds, but no longer attend their churches. He has visited many different churches but hasn't found a good fit...seems to have inherited a distrust of organized religion, and I don't necessarily believe that's a bad thing.

Most of the folks in our pre-corps twigs were good, decent people who were nothing but kind to our family. Even in the family corps, he had mostly good experiences...in part because he was only 4 to 6 years old at the time, and also thanks to Linda-something who was on staff in children's fellowship during our stay. She took a liking to our son and watched over him as much as she could.

What I wonder about most is his being raised so frugally. When we left twi, so soon after being in-resident corps, we had no money. No money, no degrees, had never held very good jobs (how could we when we had to take off work so much because of this class and that seminar and whatever event HQ dreamed up?).

Crap...when we moved back to Texas, that first year or two we qualified for him to get free lunches. Don't get me wrong, he was clean and dressed nice and had decent toys (I was a good garage sale shopper and his paternal grandparents helped out financially for awhile), but it was a struggle. I know lots of people have struggled much harder...but the simple fact is that had we not bought into the whole "Word Over the World-snow on the gaspumps-you're corps, dam nit" shineola, we could have provided him with more opportunity. By the time T-Bone and I were able to advance in our careers, he was pretty much grown.

OK, the thing is that he's not very ambitious, and that's fine if it's because that's just him. I can't help but wonder if somewhere in his mind he doesn't think he deserves it, because of the frugality of his early years. He's a college graduate and works, but just enough to get by and travel. That doesn't sound too bad, actually, because he's doing what he wants to do. I just wonder how much of it is because of our dumb-a$$ mistakes.

Hey, at least he's not wasting his time in a cult, so I know...I should quit my beetchin'.

Sorry for the long rambling post...slow morning at work.

I thought this was a very good post. I have wondered the same things, because even though we are doing OK now, financially we are years and years behind our peers. I worry about the opportunities my kids may have missed also. Thanks for sharing, well put.

twi teaches hatred within families.

They don't say it directly, usually, but it is practiced.

Nor do they understand what a family is.

Makes me wonder if LCM's kids mark and avoid him, if he is getting a taste of his own medicine. They were so harsh against families-as if twi were going to take care of us in our old age.

You might check out the *child abuse in twi* thread. It was started by a kid who grew up in twi. There were a lot of contribution from now adult kids, and their parents.

Thanks Rascal.

P.S.

Why is there a "heart" icon to the left of the thread title on the main "About The Way" page? Wassup wit dat? Jes curious....

I tend to click on the heart icon whenever I post. I like hearts. I may have inadvertantly put one in the wrong place.

Jonny, I think I may have met you. Were you the Rev. with a really funny sense of humour?

Ruined my relationship with my adopted son, and probably any relationship he might have had with God. WG

Hi Watered Garden. I have found your previous posts very insightful. But do you mean that your relationship with him is ruined now? I thought from a previous post, all was forgiven between you. I hope that's the case. You seem like such a wonderful parent to me, and he a wonderful son.

I like that your son fought against them while you were in the family corps. I think he did you all a favor by acting out. It sounds like he could see through all the bs that was going on.

He is a treasure that you found. Those leaders in the family Corps were so inept to deal with a child that they tried to cover up their stupidity by telling you to get rid of him. What a bunch of cowards and idiots. I'm glad you adopted him and stuck by him.

Do you ever wish you could tell those morons off?

God bless you WG.

As I read the opening replies to this thread, I am wondering ... Were there any fully functional healthy families in the Way? I can't think of any.

I think the Qualtieri family had it all together. I still think of things I learned from them. But from a post from Peter's daughter-he was treated terribly on his death bed. He didn't deserve that.

I'm wondering what you all think about how your involvement in twi affected your kids. Are some of your kids still with twi? Is your relationship strained with them if they are? Were they mad at you about your involvement and have things healed between you? Or do they pretty much not care? If you were a kid raised in twi, are you angry with your parents for it or did you understand their intentions?

I hope it's not too personal a question to ask. I'm just wondering about the potential long term impact on the kids.

What about Har ry Dean Sta nton as Don?

Colonel Sanders as Uncle Harry?

LOL-that would be perfect.

But seriously-does anyone besides me think that Kelsey Grammar (Frasier) looks like Loy?

why is it when people discuss the history of the cult twi and it's leader's personalities, attitudes, and works, they are labeled as bitter and unforgiving? just because I talk about something negative, and even if I'm still angry about it, doesn't mean I'm bitter.

Actually, it depends who the listener is. Some people are able to have a conversation with someone about the twi and not label them bitter. These kind of people have been helpful to me. Like if we discuss what happened at Pearl Harbor, doesn't mean I am bitter against the Japanese. It's just discussing history.

Sometimes I wonder if it's a residual affect from all of the years of leaders accusing us of not "renewing our minds" or "being negative" whenever we tried to have an honest conversation about something.

I'm not bitter, but I am fascinated with why we all said and did such stupid things and thought we were being Godly. It's therapeutic to talk over the "history" of twi.

Indeed.

Every now and then I'm overcome by the lunacy of it all. Just what was it we were trying to do in WayWorld anyway? What the hell were we trying to accomplish? What was so important that we had to drop everything and run off to tend to that instead of our own lives? I really don't know.

Instead of getting a REAL education, or building a career, a family life, a connection to friends, family and community we spent our time basically amongst strangers and doing NOTHING of any significance. Yet we thought it was so important, so overarching, so crucial. And in reality we were just memorizing an arcane, often bizarre mythology and promoting the product and success of an amoral conman.

"Yeah, rube, come to Mississippi and stack my firewood for me, you subserviant worm. And I'll teach you the tremendous truths that only I can impart."

To which I can only say "F#$% you, junior"

(Sorry, I thought I'd worked out most of my leftover bile from WayWorld, but now and then another little bit still boils to the surface)

Well put George.

i know. i should have thought of that. no limb leader would waste god's time by sitting around watching tv.

ps. does anyone else in the world string things to line then up ? where did that idea come from ? just curious

I knew a limb coord and his wife who watched a ton of TV. Law and Order, the X-files, and Friends were their favourite. (There were many more in addition to these that they watched) But they really were into the Young and the Restless. The husband once told me that watching this soap together made them closer. He even said he admired the character of Ryan McNeil and had learned things about being a man from him. I'm not kidding.

Yet they were the first to rage on about how others spent their time. I didn't have the time they did to watch TV. But they'd give me an earful about wisely stewerding my time if I wanted to visit with my family on a holiday.

They were both full time paid staff, and they often required us to come over to clean their house and babysit. (For free of course) I worked full time, and ran a twig and attended all those twi meetings but they wanted me to have an "opportunity to give."

The idea for stringing chairs is a symptom of OCD.

We also had to be up and "in the word" by 7:00 AM. My Wow brother (also the family coord) would occasionally throw open my bedroom door (a room I shared with my WOW sister) to make sure we were really awake. If we had fallen asleep, he would yell at us about our commitment. One morning he threw the door open to catch us and my WOW sister happened to be naked. He was mortified and never tried to catch us again. What a bonehead.

I remember something funny that happened. When I was a WOW- I think we had to witness forty hours a week. (But I don't remember how many hours for sure.) My WOW family coord. had us write down how many hours we had accumulated. One week I was two hours short. It was about 9:00 pm on the last night of the week and he was angry I would be two hours short. He told me we needed to go out so I could keep my commitment.

But the problem was, I wasn't felling well and I was exhausted. I didn't think I could stay awake. I tried to tell him this but he told me to renew my mind. So we went out door to door. One man, a jehovah witness let us in. He was very nice to us. We were sitting in his living room talking to him when I fell asleep on his couch. My WOW brother kept shaking me awake. But I would just fall back asleep.

So this man just finally put a blanket on me while he and my WOW brother debated things about God. It was 11:45 when my WOW brother drug me home. He actually thought this guy the jehovah witness was the wierd one. I thought we were wierd for going over there so late and for me falling asleep on the couch of a perfect stranger. But my WOW brother said that what was important was that I had kept my commitment. (I slept through most of it.)

We saw this man again, and he wasn't interested in comming to our twig. What a shock. LOL

I've been thinking about something concerning this so*ers* website. I hope it's not just another turf war. Like the relatives of VPW thinking they should have the rights to the 5 corpse pricipals. If the thing is born of spite or entitlement issues then it will be just another ego fest. Maybe the kid is trying to honor his Grandfather, who knows?

Some of my experiences with twi leadership remind me of a kid in the middle of two immature parents divorcing. Listening to leaders boo hoo about each other and resenting people who don't follow them. I just know I don't have it in me to be involved in that kind of drama anymore.

Too much time was spent playing follow the leader.

And if giving someone the benefit of the doubt makes me seem like I am "promoting it",

Unless I'm mistaken, you were the one who brought this info to GS...and you're so intent on defending something you don't know about and dismissing people who didn't like what they saw on that website. That's what makes it seem like you're promoting it. I think people based what they thought about the website by looking at the web site. If he wants people to think more of it, then he'll need to explain more.

I thought the web site was wierd, you must think it's not wierd because you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt. "if you're not willing to be outside of your comfort zone..." implies immaturity and arrogance. What is this kid really offering? Seems like he is too full of self importance to explain himself, wants people to come bidding after him.

"Pssst! Happy Heart, if someone "goes there", it will be a self made decision just like the ones we all made when we were with The Way. An American Right, ya know...."

Well, that is open to debate and another thread. :P

Okay then Oakspear, fair enough. And so, maybe it seems unfair for people to allow their minds to "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game", when they don't know anything about young VPWs motives, Greek word not even used. .

Sure I can agree that it would be helpful, but not necessarily mandatory. No doubt, if you think about it, folks willing to be a part of this program probably are already affiliated with the young man running the program. At another site, he said that he had done a fellow laborers program with CFF, and no doubt the majority of participants will come from that body of believers, hence the lack of a necessity for a list of credentials. And by the way (no pun intended), I will now "paste" that which I just read at the SOWERS website:

For details or admissions information please contact

Victor Wierwille at victorpaul38@aol.com

And so, no doubt MORE INFORMATION can be found there. However, one could e-mail and simply ask instead of speculate, ya know?

And so folks, I can see this one heating up, and I have said my piece on it already. Peace be unto you, and may young Wierwille keep his heart pure before the Lord. If not, I'll leave it to God...

Oh, and here is JP and his sons from that other site. Oops, looks like I failed to post the pic. Anybody else want to try? Looks alot like 'ol VP don't he? And the boys are fine and handsome! Hope it all works out...

http://api.ning.com/files/wnl-w6U7nP*anbZe...&crop=1%3A1

So Mr. Lingo,

Are you going to sign up for SO*ERs? I understand what your saying that we shouldn't assume the guy has a bad heart-he may very well have good intentions. But on the other hand, you don't really know much about it yourself. Maybe you don't realise this but you kind of sound like you're promoting it. Do you want to take on that kind of responsibility? What if you do inadvertantly encourage someone before you understand it yourself?

Okay then Oakspear, fair enough. And so, maybe it seems unfair for people to allow their minds to "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game", when they don't know anything about young VPWs motives, Greek word not even used. .

Sure I can agree that it would be helpful, but not necessarily mandatory. No doubt, if you think about it, folks willing to be a part of this program probably are already affiliated with the young man running the program. At another site, he said that he had done a fellow laborers program with CFF, and no doubt the majority of participants will come from that body of believers, hence the lack of a necessity for a list of credentials. And by the way (no pun intended), I will now "paste" that which I just read at the SOWERS website:

For details or admissions information please contact

Victor Wierwille at victorpaul38@aol.com

And so, no doubt MORE INFORMATION can be found there. However, one could e-mail and simply ask instead of speculate, ya know?

And so folks, I can see this one heating up, and I have said my piece on it already. Peace be unto you, and may young Wierwille keep his heart pure before the Lord. If not, I'll leave it to God...

Oh, and here is JP and his sons from that other site. Oops, looks like I failed to post the pic. Anybody else want to try? Looks alot like 'ol VP don't he? And the boys are fine and handsome! Hope it all works out...

http://api.ning.com/files/wnl-w6U7nP*anbZe...&crop=1%3A1

So Mr. Lingo,

Are you going to sign up for SO*ERs? I understand what your saying that we shouldn't assume the guy has a bad heart-he may very well have good intentions. But on the other hand, you don't really know much about it yourself. Maybe you don't realise this but you kind of sound like you're promoting it. Do you want to take on that kind of responsibility? What if you do inadvertantly encourage someone before you understand it yourself?

But if the guy has a pure heart, then his stated goals are simply fine. As long as he is honest before God and truly desires to help, what's the big deal?

And come on, what if you were running some sort of seminar and someone got out of whack and needed to get gone, then you have to ask then to leave. Simple. So you set up the standard ahead of time. Just like in a bar or restaurant where the little plaque on the wall says "we have the right to refuse service to anyone".

Man, this is awesome seeing you all getting worked up over this.

Not worked up at all. Just thought it was icky.

i

Why thank you "cathedra". But I do dismiss people who allude to some "fact" that The Way was anything like Jim Jones's suicidal cult. I know that your life is miserable because of your involvement with The Way, because you have stated it over and again, and, I wish you Godspeed and deliverance. But you must admit that we Ex-Wayfers have, by enlarge, fared far better than those 900 people who died at "Jonestown", ya know what I mean? At least we are still living and breathing, ya know? Count yer blessings girl, and breath a sigh of relief. Peace be unto you Excie...

Hi Jonny Lingo,

I agree with you that we fared a lot better than the people who died at Jonestown and I'm thankful.

But I do remember thinking at one point when I was so conflicted that it would be a relief if they wanted us to drink the kool aid because then it would give me a reason to leave without shame and guilt and convince others to leave too. I know that sounds really wierd, but whenever a tragedy happened to people after they left twi-that's what they attributed it to. That leaving the twi was the reason calamity occured. It was very manipulating.

I watched the History channel last week and there was a documentary "Jonestown-Paradise Lost." They interviewed a lot of people including the son of Jim Jones. Like I said, I agree with you that we fared better than them. But I did recognise something. Jim Jones did remind me of Craig to some extent. Jim Jones thought everyone needed to go down with him. Craig thought anyone who didn't "stand" with him deserved the worse life had to offer. They both had incredible ego's and they didn't seem to care that satifying their ego's came at the expense of others.

Just some thoughts.

Many of the earlier corps men came from backgrounds that involved college football and athletics.

It didn't take long before an athletic, virile persona became the image that men should seek to duplicate.

Hmmmm.----I think I'm beginning to see where my downfall was.

It was a problem for women too. I was never succesful in the athletic world. So all of those teachings where using athletics as a point of reference didn't work for me. I couldn't relate to that. It didn't inspire believing images of victory for me because I'd never had any and didn't understand sports all that well. Variety is good. I get a lot out of some TV evangelists that talk about personal every day things I can relate to or have experienced. Things need to be mixed up if it's going to work for everyone.

Speaking from the B string......

This whole conversation kinda reminds me of selling PLAF witnessing.

LOL. It was like we were all unpaid amway reps.

We left voluntarily but it was probably just a matter of days before we were kicked out. I'd made the 'mistake' several years earlier of telling my spouse I wanted out, he'd gone for help to the HFC, and it was all down hill from there with leadership.

I learned the hard way that going to leadership for help was a disaster. They just ended up using whatever it was against you. Some help that was. I remember Craig saying "Why would you pay someone $200. an hour to care about you?" (Referring to therapists)

I guess it's better to pay 18 % of your income to have people b--tch slap you when you admit your not happy. :huh: