satori001

Thanks for your reply, johniam. I found it both frank and honest.

I have never thought that VPW could do what he did, had we NOT believed he was "the" man of God, regardless of the roles we played in TWI. So of course Tex should have been no exception, as far as we could guess. And it is a guess.

In the late 70's, I did hear about the sexual society thing (not in those terms exactly) from a Family Corps woman on her interim assignment as a Twig/Area Leader (or something like that), who said she had been passed from VPW to Howard to someone else, and finally pretty much dumped. I had expressed interest in entering the Corps, and there were no other Corps around, so she confided in me somewhat.

She STILL believed in VPW-the-MOG, but her entire perspective of Christianity reminded me of a Masonic thing, with progressive levels of initiation. By the time you approached the top, the "walk" was nothing like that of the average Twig Leader. How could this be? Easy. Milk for "babes." Meat for the initiates. The "meat of the Word," according to her, was not apparent to the senses. It had to be revealed, by a "gift ministry," a "teacher" for example.

She was a very high initiate, she thought, or had been informed -- what she actually said was the equivalent of a "high priestess." Very impressive to me at the time, though I remained skeptical. She told me to "work Hebrews," with this ominous air of mystery and promise in her voice. It was "heavy" stuff.

She also "shared" with me some very explicit details about sex and sexuality, when we were alone together, but all from a "spiritual" standpoint, of course. These details concerned the spiritual dynamics underlying the sexual act between a man and woman "of God." I was all ears, but that's as far as it went. In one way or another, I knew I was over my head. Whatever her spiritual condition was, it was plain that she was otherwise a very troubled soul, and nobody to get involved with.

So why weren't you privy to this? I don't know. I think it was just a matter of who you knew, and whether or not the opportunity was there. Also, I believe males were kept in the dark more than females, for pretty obvious reasons. Females needed to be recruited. Males would only need to be restrained.

I am glad you are willing to consider what Tex has to say, and that your obvious respect for her may allow you to connect with her story.

Regards,

satori

I mean, if it's so obvious that my transparency is whatever stupid thing you said it was..IF this is so obvious, then why not ignore me?

I'm not just talking about this thread. You can't declare me possessed or M&A, that's already been done, but you could just put me on ignore.

The reason you can't is because enough of what I post must be so threatening that you feel you HAVE to address it.

But on THIS thread I've said nothing. Just asked a question. And you're all over me. WHY? What are you afraid I'm going to say? Why the desperate, uncharacteristic attacks? This is not your usual MO.

Why? I dunno. I don't know why YOU don't know. What's my usual MO though?

For some reason, I read the first post by Tex. Then I read her blog entries. Then I read what you had to say.

The rest, johniam, is history (history repeating itself). Whenever I've had the time of day, johniam, to spend on your behalf, it has been to register my usual opinion about your usual opinion about TWI's many victims' usual opinions. Their opinions are not very high, and yours is not very high, and mine, likewise, not so very high (respectively).

I'm as surprised at your surprise as you're surprised by my "desperate, uncharacteristic" (neither of which true) "attacks" (not attacks), since that has been my "MO" consistently, if not constantly, for as long as I can recall. Neither of us are as surprised, I would surmise, as Tex could be - by your surprising position on Vic's unsurprising sexual and psychological abuse of another female believer. I'll bet SHE was surprised, that first time on the lust bus.

I wish, johniam, you had a shred of compassion, an ounce of empathy, for these women, many of them still girls when they so loved God, and when Vic Wierwille, that dirty dog, so used their love.

Maybe that's why I bother. I am bothered, brother. I take that back. You're no brother of mine. Vic was neither brother nor father either. Vic was a dog. Vic was Tic. Is that why he treated women the way some dogs treat dogs? Could be.

Tic, wherever you are, no offense. It's just a figger. You were a BETTER dog than Vic was, Gunga Din.

quote: johniam, if you're going to be so evasive that it requires all this parsing to get what you're actually trying to say, why bother to say anything at all?

So you finally admit that it's you who are trying to shut ME up? You act like any accusation against TWI is absolute truth. Christians frequently comment on the writing style of the bible writers. Both TWI and non TWI.

quote: 1. "using" implies that the author employs a literary device, which implies artificiality

Hello? WORDS are literary devices. So is puntuation. Perhaps you are projecting your own dishonesty onto me.

So you finally admit that it's you who are trying to shut ME up? You act like any accusation against TWI is absolute truth.

No johniam. I'm saying that tortured equivocation renders your position nearly impossible to discern. Drop the innuendo and just say what you mean. jeaniam might even have more respect for you.

As for accusations against TWI, I will settle for mostly true, as long as they fit the "ministry's" well-established history of behavior and the facts are internally and externally consistent.

On the other hand, you choose to see each "accusation" as if in a vacuum, a random, baseless and unfounded allegation. This is only possible if you consider everything we already KNOW to be false. If this is so, you are living in a delusion of your own making.

Christians frequently comment on the writing style of the bible writers. Both TWI and non TWI.

Of course they do, johniam, and each to their own ends. Most are endeavoring to get at the truth, although some are like yourself, endeavoring to twist the truth into something that resembles the world as they wish we would all see it, rather than as it is. Cults do that. It's what you do. Coincidence?

People DO believe lies. You must find that greatly encouraging. Otherwise, why would you bother?

Thank you for holding the mirror up in front of him satori...

What is just as sad, IMO, is that he thinks that folks don't see through his transparency...

There was a time when we wouldn't have seen through it.

quote:

Is the book like Karl Kahler's, solely about TWI as he experienced it, or more about recovery, using TWI as just the primary "villain"?

johniam, nobody would accuse you of being forthright. With evasion and equivocation you persist in defying common knowledge and experience about Wierwille the deviate, and The Way International, the cult.

Let's look at the quoted question.

First, you discount the historical component of Kahler's book, by misrepresenting it as his (isolated) "experience."

Next, you suggest Losing the Way is in one of two categories: isolated experience (like Kahler's), or a journal of recovery.

For this second category ("...or more about recovery, using TWI as just the primary 'villain?'"):

1. "using" implies that the author employs a literary device, which implies artificiality

2. "just the primary" implies the author's TWI "experience" is one of several (dysfunctional) issues from which the author was suffering -- and this in turn suggests the fault is not necessarily with TWI, but with the author

3. you reinforce, by placing "villain" in quotes, your position that the author's TWI experience is defective and isolated, therefore contrived and artificial, therefore irrelevant.

***

johniam, if you're going to be so evasive that it requires all this parsing to get what you're actually trying to say, why bother to say anything at all?

I think I know the answer to that. Your purpose is not to argue a position you can't win, but to insinuate bias, subjectivity and unreliability. This is not based on any facts, since no one has yet read the book, but upon your own compelling obsession, to keep the truth about Wierwille and TWI in the darkness. Whether you hope new people will be deceived or simply hope to justify your own misbegotten loyalty is unimportant. It's what you do.

The word "villain" is a literary/theatrical term.

I haven't given any opinions about Tex yet.

Of course you have, johniam, by the insinuation implicit in the word "villain." You as much as say so yourself by your description of the word, by which you mean "fictional."

To paraphrase Peanuts, "Of all the johniams in the world, you're the johniam-iest." I wouldn't brag about it.

She'll be surprised to find someone like you here, but Tex is far more than a match for you. If she doesn't find you a complete waste of time, I look forward to seeing her deal with you.

Don't know.

Two searches got results:

1. Eckhart

2. Tolle

The Power of Now was first published in 1999. I read it and recommended it here soon afterward, but that thread has apparently been deleted. Several others have recommended it since, the earliest in 2003 based on a quick search.

I've used "satori" since the Waydale days, and been aware of the word and its meaning since college. It was probably in something published by DT Suzuki, Thaddeus Golas, Ram Das, Werner Erhard, Robert Pirsig, Alan Watts, Eugen Herrigel or any of many others.

I can't say I ever understood any of it. I was more like a moth bouncing off the street light, again and again, attracted by light within but deflected by something both invisible and utterly impenetrable. This was more a hobby than an obsession. That is either fortunate or unfortunate. God only knows.

Here is Thaddeus in his own words:

http://www.community-newspapers.com/archiv...g-engage1.shtml

Bxxxdxxs & Axxxtxxxg

Nice looking couple.

Hammered Dulcimer

http://www.mindreadersdictionary.com/

Learn about the "liar's paradox." Learn about... dialogs, and demagogs, and dirty dogs.

For some, a cipher. For some, just another fabulous podstop on your way across the galaxy.

The first activity is to brainstorm. My brain is stuck. Need original ideas for an invention that will help industries grow and become more efficient or can help make the daily lives of Americans easier.

Then later....

what is the name ?

what is the purpse ?

what will it do ?

how will it improve your society and our world ?

draw or create an actual model of the invention....

It can also be an improvement to a current product.

--

Got any ideas please ? I need help to help my kid. He's as stuck as I am.

We must not be inventors.

If we want to come up with a great invention, we must think of a situation or circumstance around the house that has bothered us for a long time, but we've just lived with it. The longer the better, because it's hopefully had some time to "ferment" a bit.

Make it specific. It can't just be, "the hall closet is a frickin' mess." It has to be "the hall closet is painted an off-white, and there are five shelves, and it contains linens, towels, and bathroom articles like shampoo and toothpaste, and it's a frickin' mess."

Then think of something in the house we could use that would fix the problem.

Remember that an invention can be a thing, or it can be a process. Maybe there is no gadget that will fix the mess in the hall closet, but there is a simple routine we just never thought of before. Ah ha! Fold the freakin' wash cloths. There. Invented! And it's off to the patent office, and now we wait for the royalties to pour in.

Here's an example I read years ago. A typical, if tightly wound, dad was constantly annoyed that his wife and kids would squeeze the toothpaste tube from the middle. After several years of putting up with this horsesh.., he got the i.d.e.a. -- for a process, not a gadget, and it never annoyed him again. From that day forward, he just dropped the tube on the floor and squeezed it all to the top with the bottom of his foot. It took only a moment every morning and every night, and it felt kind of cool beneath his toes. It was an invention, and it was fun too!

Now let's face it, this guy was a psycho, a true sociopath, who would take a chainsaw to his whole family if they left the hall light on, or forgot to put the milk back in the fridge. After all, nobody who's normal steps on the toothpaste, and on the bathroom floor for God's sake. That's disgusting. But we can still learn a lot from the story, about inspiration.

I've seen the phrase "cognitive dissonance" used to describe exactly this sort of situation. "CD" refers to the tension generated between our ears, when we simultaneously see the way things are, and envision the way we'd like them to be. Usually misdiagnosed as schizophrenia, it's energizing melody can sometimes be heard in the familiar clacking, chirping and chipping noises of dry enamel, grinding against dry enamel, in the darkness.

Sure, maybe we expected the aliens to destroy Earth back in 1956, but they messed up, and they didn't. Embarrassing, after we "witnessed" to pretty much everybody we knew!? But, do we go on believing it's going to happen, 51 years late? Well, it could, but of course not! We either adapt our doctrine, as true believers described here did (and more recently, Mike has set that bar), or we just "step down on the toothpaste," step hard, and we move on. Take that, toothpaste. And that. And that! And THAT! (FYI - you can break the tube if you over-do it, I've heard.)

You know what bugs me? Soap goo. People I won't mention tend to return the soap to the soap dish, which is good, but leave it in a half inch of standing water, which... The next morning when I reach for the soap to wash my hands, it feels like arm-wrestling with a 3-pound garden slug.

Oh, I've tried stepping on it. Felt pretty good too, but you don't want to fall in the bathroom, more than once.

But then, I noticed that a common dish sponge, in the soap dish, works pretty well at keeping the soap above the water, and helps the water evaporate, while keeping the soap reasonably solid. You can't patent a sponge, but you could invent a soap dish that incorporates a removable sponge that's easy to clean, resistant to soap build-up...

A good invention for a school kid is not a techno-wiz/engineering fantasy, but a solid, low-tech idea that is easy to make, and useful, enough so to justify its pricetag. Hope you didn't mind the digression. By the way, the soapdish isn't a suggestion, though you're welcome to it, just an example. The toothpaste thing is already taken.

alfakat,

Look at this, would you?

http://www.thirteen.org/curious/episodes/qa-mark-davis/

Talk is cheap, advice cheaper - nevertheless alfakat, this is offered with the best of intentions. I hope you might find something useful, that you might not have already thought of.

--

Look up every medication they give you, and get to know about side-effects, interactions, alternatives. Get on Google Alerts (or the equivalent) for MCL, along with words like research, treatment, therapy, breakthrough, and remission. You may learn about new options long before your doctors might, even in the best hospitals.

There are new treatments coming out all the time, and Stanford is a trailblazer. You may have the opportunity to sign on to a promising study. Some of these require signing on soon after the diagnosis, so get some good advice, know what's out there, and be ready.

Keep some form of a journal, maybe a blog. Something you learn early may become significant long after it's faded from short-term memory.

Remember some of the slickest websites may be less than wholly honest about their agenda, but they may have a lot to offer anyway. Wheat from chaff.

A few websites to peruse...

http://www.mantlecelllymphoma.org/index.asp

http://www.thecancerblog.com/ ("retired")

http://www.npr.org/blogs/mycancer/

It sucks to be sick, but you can get well again. Join a support group. Get on the prayer list(s) you're "inspired" to. Educate the people who are supporting you, in whatever way they can do so, so they understand what's necessary, and why. Tell them the truth.

Look into tai chi, and learning to breathe (not Knowles). Look into the latest biofeedback software. Keep things around that make you laugh (and on the topic, look into medical marijuana).

Get well soon.

satori

No, I'm afraid it is not a joke, although I'll concede it wouldn't pass for a typical thread around here either, and the literalists will probably have a better time over on the trivia thread.

I stopped breathing sometime during the night and was pronounced dead this morning. As I probably made clear, this was not exactly unexpected, but it seems "surreal," as one of you put it. My family has been notfied, and all that seems to remain, other than my remains, is to arrange for them. While I will never know, I'd like to think someone will look into the circumstances of my care on the last day of my conscious life.

I'm 88. Had a good life, overall. Smoked for a while but quit in the 70's. Took lots of vitamins, followed Linus Pauling and others. Got lots of exercise, walking and calisthenics of one kind or another.

Okay, so I have CHF, and COPD, and kidney failure (creatinine is a couple points high). The swelling in my legs and feet comes and goes, but I've learned to live with it. In the past year I've gone from walking on my own, to needing a cane, needing a walker, and until yesterday a wheel chair. But I've learned to live with it.

Yesterday, the damnedest thing happened, though I don't exactly remember how. I was up early, before 6am. I was getting out of my wheel chair. Standing up sets that beeper off, and that lets the staff know I'm not where I'm supposed to be. Something caused me to fall backward, right on my butt, back and head. I saw stars and thought I'll be lucky if I survive this. The staff heard the beep, but didn't check it out in time. They found me there on the floor, flat on my back. Not a damn thing to break my fall. They took me back to my bed and checked me over for anything broken. Didn't need to do an x-ray.

A couple of hours later I felt fine, other than some soreness at the base of my spine where I fell. I still felt good and sang a solo for my wife, who shares the room with me while we convalesce (we have different health problems, though she recently got her pacemaker too), until we get back home.

Throughout yesterday though, I felt worse and wondered if I'd done some real damage. The staff asked me if I was alright, more often than usual, so they must have noticed. I was a little out of it, moreso than usual I guess. My memory isn't so great either. Around 5 pm I really didn't feel well. My head hurt so I asked for a couple of Tylenol, which the nice nurse got for me. I couldn't decide whether to have dinner in the room or down in the dining room, and finally decided the dining room would be better, where there were people around, and I could get help if I needed it. About a half hour later, the sick feeling just overpowered me. I began to throw up and then passed out.

They brought me back to the room and had my wife leave while they checked my pulse, which was erratic, and breathing which was shallow. They put me on oxygen, which I have in the room. About ten minutes later they realize it's not improving and they call 911. My wife holds my hand and gives me a kiss before they wheel me to the elevator and out to the parking lot on the gurney to the waiting ambulance. Seems like they take forever on the ambulance, filling out some form on a clip board, strapping me in so I don't fall off the stretcher. We must have been in the parking lot for 20 minutes.

When I get to the hospital ER they checked my vital signs. Heart rate and blood pressure are acceptable. I'm still on oxygen. They do a cat scan and it shows a massive hematoma on the left side. My brain is pushed to the right, so that the cat-scan shows a line that should indicate the center of the brain is bent right-ward in a bow shape. My pupils do not respond to the little flashlight, and my hand does not respond to a pin prick. My legs give a little kick every ten or twenty seconds. Somebody tells somebody I am "unresponsive."

I'm on a lot of medications because of the heart condition, etc. One of them is Coumadin, which is a blood thinner, which makes life easier for my heart. When I fell and whacked my head, it caused a little hemorrhage, and it didn't stop bleeding the way it normally would because of the Coumadin. Because of my age, my brain has decreased in size so there is enough room in there to accommodate a sub-dural hematoma for several hours. Not forever though. For me, about 12 hours until the lights went out.

So here I am, in a coma, and they don't expect me to survive the weekend. They've got me on oxygen and an IV (saline, glucose and a proton blocker for my stomach), but that's all. They've been told not to resuscitate, since I'd be a vegetable anyway, and miserable if I regained consciousness. I really wanted to live another few years at least, and I had plans to enjoy my grandkids, a lot more than I have up to now.

I have to accept this, I understand that. They told me not to get out of the wheel chair, but I forgot. If I feel like I can walk, I don't remember that I'm not supposed to. I remembered afterward, and on the way down too. I have to wonder though. If I'm 88, and the doctor who prescribed the Coumadin examines me after a hard fall but doesn't order any follow-up tests, like a cat-scan at the very least, who's really brain-dead? Him or me?

That's a joke, since I definitely am, but is the doc a close second? Or does an 88-year old guy with a bad heart take a back seat to a golfing weekend in Costa Rica on the Friday before Labor Day weekend? If I'd fallen at the hospital, it's policy to put me under observation and do the scan. The nursing facility may have a policy too. I dunno. I'll have to leave it up to others to find out.

Here's a good one:

http://www.dancarlin.com/

Good night, Mick.

Hey Satori, haven't seen you around for awhile, how the heck are ya?

Rick

As well as can be expected Rick. Thanks for asking.

I've discovered, nearly by accident, that the Earth is not round, but curved. To see flat, or not to see flat, that is the question.

Suppose we'd all followed Jerry instead of Vic? We'd have put those harmonies to much better use, that's probably a fact.

Download and install iTunes, register with the usual junk (probably requires a credit card), and go to the iTunes Store, you will find a link for iTunes U.

At first glance I thought it was course-ware on how to buy from iTunes.

Not so. Instead it's a portal to various, free, online educational resources from schools with pedigrees like MIT and Duke.

You don't have to use iTunes, but it makes it easier, and they will probably assemble a growing number of "free" courses as it catches on.

Obviously this requires bandwidth, because the downloads are pretty big. If you don't have the equipment capable of doing this, you might try a local library. Otherwise, just figure you couldn't go to MIT before, and you still can't. Net gain = net loss.

Here is a direct link to the MIT site: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/index.htm

The courses seem to be both very informative, and very accessible. If you have an iPod, you can take the lectures with you. If you don't have one, you should consider it. It will liberate your music collection, and your brain, from the limitations of the CD player and commercial radio. Again, obviously you'll need the right equipment. iPod and iTunes are Apple products but compatible with PCs.

I've started the MIT course called Introduction to Psychology. It's old material for me, but a great survey of the field today, and a good refresher course. It's a live class, recorded in the classroom. The first session begins with the usual admin stuff getting cleared out of the way, but you can skip ahead about 15 minutes.

It's not for everybody, but some of you have been starving your brains since you left college (or joined TWI) and others always knew they were too smart for the room but never had a chance to go on to college, or grad school for that matter.

Some of you will be thrilled to know there is a theological seminary course list included. Some of you could take a course together and organize a discussion around it, rather than recycling the same old arguments and opinions ad nauseum.

Try it out. Again, the iPod goes anywhere. It's over-priced and still worth the money. I have the 30G version that plays video, but the courses are mostly audio so you can use cheaper models. The classes can be saved to mp3 so other players will work too. Don't ask me how to do it. It's an iTunes option.

http://www.magicsoapbox.com/doc/

Did you read the label?