satori001

So the WC site's not heavily regulated? What's "heavily regulated" mean then, if you can't say anything that might be provocative? How 1984 can you get? Compared with Richeson's homage site to Victor and Way Corps coven, Greasespot is pretty much laissez-faire and perfect. Ye who were without Hope, she went that-away (adios back-atcha sweetheart, and give Vic's portrait a big kiss for us). Know ye that The Way Corps delusion lives on at a website near you (but you can't join it! - and don't wonder why, peons, they know what they are about, and they don't want to hear about it from you).

You know? You found out? You are good. Okay. Yes I have. Yes indeedy. The freedom is refreshing, but hard to share, not like a forum.

John I for one really love flattery. About waist deep should be good, don't go overboard. Thanks man.

We're talking about these forums, dear.

It would be moot. If someone were to ask if GS had outlived its usefulness, should a "yes" or "no" be sufficient, or would you think some qualifying argument was in order? And, once again, the edit thing is about the autonomy of the participants. It's a little more than being able to correct your spelling. Can't stress that enough, apparently.

I think the "greater good" is far better served by maximum individual autonomy over his or her written "content." It's hard to imagine how the unraveling of a thread, as you describe it, is more important than that. How often would such a thing as blanket deletions happen? Count the times it happened at Greasespot. Did Greasespot somehow go on? A community can self-police, and the best of them do. The individual who abuses the feature would soon be dismissed from the dialogue.

Thanks so much George. What a saint you are.

You're on the money, Abbie, on all points above. And I rarely even read the threads any more, much less post, for the reasons you've given. I made this thread an exception because it seemed like the first open to discussing issues years in the making. I know others have attempted it, but the invitation really must have come from Pawtucket. And so it has, after lo these many seasons. By the way, Abigail. If someone had saved your My Story posts, and if he were to put them back up on Greasespot, how would you feel, now that you have your new perspective? Would that be alright with you, or not? Do you still feel some justifiable relief that you got while the getting was good? Did those early choices here reflect your vulnerability to The Way, and would effectively rubbing your face in a mistake have helped you find your better, wiser self? Or would you have just left? -- Whoever said I felt GS has outlived its usefulness only because of the edit thing has misunderstood my meaning. It exemplifies the attitude underlying that specific decision, and random but consistent day to day decisions, including the attitude and behavior of certain moderators in certain situations (some of whom may be friends, but who knows?), and the general permissiveness toward posts like Garth's taunt-filled garbage while forbidding the well-deserved, satisfaction of a slap-down he so richly and often deserves... and so on.

For the record WW, I have never called Pawtucket or anyone else regarding Greasespot at 3am, or at any time. If I've ever emailed Pawtucket, and I don't remember, I could count the times on one hand. Somebody on this thread, probably Shellon, mentioned 3am calls, and I imagined that someone desperate enough to remove or change their post might resort to that. And yes, much of my editing is cosmetic, but since I enjoy the process of writing, I take advantage of the opportunity to edit when it's there, to improve, clarify, distill... If I were a better writer, maybe I would get it right the first time, like everyone else here does. -- Abigail, As for the grow up and get over it mantra we love to chant here, that doesn't work for everyone affected by TWI. Some of us once joined the cult because it seemed like a great way to cut through the BS to a much improved spiritual life. But others joined because life had already dealt them very badly. Those people found out that TWI was a fraud and they were no better off than the very bad situation that brought them in the first place, seeking real help. Some of them are here. And what do they hear? "Grow up." "Get over it." As if TWI were the worst of their troubles, and not a metaphor for their own lives. If we think just for a moment, it's easy to realize these individuals may bear the crosses of a lifetime's worth of abuse, neglect, or pain. TWI is just the most recent chapter. And now Greasespot, for them, might become the icing on the cake, to satisfy somebody's sense of what? Propriety? Decency and order? Right. Nice. Yeah, we should all grow up. -- I mentioned earlier that the hypothetical poster might over-estimate the intelligence and sensitivity of respondents here. Garth's lack of concern or comprehension is an excellent case in point. Thank you Garth. Other than crapping up a perfectly good thread with his irrepressible and inane posing, and with huge, irrelevant posts, he doesn't really bother me. And now we can "ignore" whoever we want. I do make use of that now, and it's great! But Garth often leads the charge for a whole tribe of his kind of poster, and those other hypothetical posters will be (have been, no doubt) drowned out or shouted down, again and again. I dunno. I guess he likes telling himself that he stood up to me. Well done, Garth. Well done. Have a banana. Go find Tarzan.

There is never an adequate response to Garth, except that old, reliable, tried and true, vicious "personal attack." One reason GS has long since "moonwalked the mahi mahi," is because such "attacks" are no longer tolerated, despite being sorely, desperately needed, as Garth has so ably demonstrated just now. Consider yourself deeply insulted Garth. Slice, dice. Slice, dice. You know the routine.

Oh stop. Have you never written something that looked right and a day later thought of a better word, or example, or whatever? Well I do. All the time. I've never deleted a post because I was covering up for anything. I've only ever changed a post to make the statement stronger or clearer. But please remind me, who have I ever backed down from Abigail? (Boring me to death doesn't count.) When would I ever "cover my..." whatever? Greasespot was never that much fun unless there was a good argument going, all comers welcome, and when the wet-nurses started moderating the "Tics" forum, I was done. Thanks for the lecture, by the way. Cut and paste job? Sounds well-rehearsed. There's another side to this. I can "imagine" that some people who have deleted posts (when it was still possible, beyond the current time limit) were probably horrified by the ugliness of what they read in response to something deeply personal and regrettably confessional, and I sympathize with them, not for myself. Or maybe they revealed something confidential or hurtful in a weak or candid emotional moment and they wanted to limit the damage. In all cases, it's quite likely they over-estimated the intelligence and sensitivity of the respondents at Greasespot with an ill-advised post. It is cruel, in that circumstance, to prevent the person from modifying or deleting their words. And it disgusts me that they might have to go crawling to some anonymous moderator to request the official favor of editing or removing their own words, and possibly be turned down by some lightweight rule enforcer, who is without a legitimate clue to what's going on with that person, and may well have a personal axe to grind behind their anonymous pseudonym. Feels so much like how The Way handled people, arbitrary and distant. So the first "mod's" denial means what, another appeal, and another, and ultimately a 3am call to Pawtucket perhaps to beg? It's degrading. It's demeaning. It's humiliating. And how some of the nastier ones here seem to live for this @#$. GS is their little soap opera, and the human lives on display their afternoon's entertainment. Their only purpose was so they might sit back and enjoy the show, watching the so-called policy torment the poster while they could lift their dirty hands and say "not me, I'm over here... just, um, taking it all in." It's all hypothetical, of course. It's probably a great policy after all. By the way, dealing with trolls are something else entirely, and moderators are more than equipped to deal with them already. I do "get over" the truly small stuff, Abigail. But so often here, the devil is in the details. There is more to this than you appear to have time to consider. Doesn't matter. Nothing will change, will it?

Mostly, I just don't do GS much any more. (Only partly because of the edit thing.) -- "Get over it?" There's a peculiar choice of words.

A better question might be, does Greasespot "work?" Abigail's post might help. If Pawtucket wants a clear answer to his question, he should just print it out, and frame it. It's the only one that matters. It exemplifies Greasespot as a platform for an ex-TWI participant to realize growth, true independence, and self-sufficiency. Did Greasespot transform Abigail's life? No, not at all. Abigail did that. She learned what she needed to know about a bad choice (TWI). In discussions with others here, she found new interests and discovered hidden talents. She then made her own choices. She worked, and she worked hard, and achieved her own success. Greasespot was only a passive environment, Pawtucket was the facilitator, nothing more. But that made all the difference, right? It was enough. It should be enough. It MUST be enough. That's all there is, folks. Any further expectation is your personal delusion, projected upon Greasespot. To make any more of Greasespot then what it is, a provocative discussion board, and controversial information source, is to make much less of it. By some of the testimonials here, it's become a dysfunctional fantasy replacing that of The Way International, and -some of you- making Pawtucket into some kind of improvised Moses. (Remember, Moses didn't like being Moses at times either, for familiar reasons.) If you want information about Wierwille's cult, come to Greasespot. If you want to socialize with others who share TWI's experience, come to Greasespot. If you want your life to change, come to Greasespot, but realize you still must look within, make your own choices, and act. That's the only way it will happen. Some people will never be content until they're truly miserable. Maybe that's you. Sorry but Greasespot won't save you. Either choose to grow up, OR, if you're really committed to your fantasy, go back to TWI. (Professional help is a healthier third option, by the way.) If you do go back to Way World, it's probably like going back to sleep, but for the rest of your life. Sweet dreams, send my regards to Rosalie, but you will never be satisfied here.

pond, it does not take a great thinker to just pull back. Do A, B, and C line up for an audience with Popetucket and receive his blessing? He needs to tell them he's not what they imagined. Have A talk to B, and tell C to see a professional. Are they angry about what somebody said to them? Tell them to use the "ignore" feature. Ya know, people do get "attacked" in the Middle East. Not here. I've never seen a bigger pack of babies as some of the folks around here: "I've been attacked by..." The nicest, most compassionate, benevolent, healing, beautiful thing Pawtucket can do for his flock is to stop taking their calls. He can tell them why. He can say "I'm not your freakin' mother, okay!?" And then remind them that he has no more of God or Truth than they have, and he can't live their lives for them. These sheep need to grow the flock up, and the shepherd must turn them over to the true Shepherd, once and for all. How did I do, pondy?

Thanks JesseJoe. I guess with some posts being edited by everyone but their authors, and other posts disappearing altogether, I'm not sure which of mine you're referring to. I guess the mod(s) want to prove Oakspear's point about editing, and they're doing a great job, because I'm totally lost. As Modgellan reminds us, this thread is about whether Greasespot has become a pointless waste of time... or not. Thanks Modgellan, and thanks (if it was you) for only deleting the one of my posts so far. Which rule did it violate, by the way? They take a lot of time to write, and I think arbitrarily deleting posts devalues Greasespot, and therefore Pawtucket's heart and soul investment, considerably, but you probably don't agree, whoever you are. In any case, thanks much, because it helps answer the question at hand. -- The real question is why is Greasespot such a bear to manage? I think I've answered that question already, but here it is again, sort of... Managing Greasespot has -bottom line- become about pleasing those personalities who want to control it. Yes folks, sorry to say, there are still a few manipulative, controlling people out there. Do they love Greasespot? Do termites love wood? They nag, they flatter, they cajole, the wheedle and coax, they call at 3am, they email relentlessly. It's what they do, and who they are. They can't help it. If you can't shoot them, what else can be done? Ignore them. Put them on hold and go have a beer. In other words, Greasespot is not the TRUE unbearable weight here. I'd venture to guess, it's a VERY, VERY small minority who insist that Pawtucket cater to their needs. And, for whatever reason, which only he knows, he complies. And Greasespot takes the blame. It's a shame, but a burden like that would kill an elephant. I suspect that some of Pawtucket's best friends, and greatest allies, are also in truth, some of his greatest liabilities, emotionally and psychologically speaking. It's hard to avoid something like that when virtually everyone here is a refugee from Dr. Fruitcake's little cult. But if it's true, it's something he can't really tell them, so the burden is that much heavier.

Hey Oakspear, Area 51 and grassy knoll? Wasn't "sarcasm" banned here, or do you apply that only to others, and selectively? Look I'd be happy to name the names. You know as well as I do, I would then be accused of a "personal attack." The thread would soon fail, as so many others have. That is what this community has come to. Agree, don't agree, I don't really care. As for your "stir the pot" comment, you're right, it could happen. Posters who "abused" the right to edit would soon earn that reputation and their rep would follow them, as it should. That changes nothing. Waydale permitted it, and Waydale succeeded in ways that still challenge Greasespot. -- Garth, you're never less than consistent.

Hey JesseJoe (Shelly), nice to see you're still out there and well. -- I think GreaseSpot "jumped the shark" back in '02 when it was decided posters could no longer edit their posts after the first hour, thereby greatly diminishing the individual poster's editorial control over his or her posts. As with Happy Days, the shark-jumping did not bring down the show for years to come. (Happy Days ran strong for 6 more years, despite that scene written to be the show's posthumous suicide note, according to Mr. Winkler. The fans didn't notice. What's that tell ya?) WayDale was the wild west, with a strong sheriff, but paradoxically, plenty of freedom, because it had the rebel/outlaw spirit of its founder Paul Allen, who was first and foremost determined to (lawfully) extort his just revenge by holding the searing (devastatingly humiliating) iron of truth to the heart of Wierwille's dishonorable and dirty legacy. Allen would not be trifled with. It is a joy to imagine how those pompous ministry @sses must have felt at the thought of WayDale's presence, freely accessible (available, receivable, and what-to-do-able) to anyone able to search AltaVista, InfoSeek, excite, Yahoo, Lycos or DogPile, maybe even Google beta. Those Way Ministry "leaders" were people who would blanch at the sight of a gum wrapper floating in the Fountain of Living Wayfers (beneath which a tentacled Victopus occupies something like Davy Jones' locker, feeding on carp and occasionally one of Rosalie's diseased cats), and suddenly those people, those frauds, those predators whose success depended upon the "secrecy of their moves," were laid bare and exposed before the world, by a cloud of witnesses, on this new devil called "WayDale," in this emerging hell called the World Wide Web. (Imagine how they must love that phrase.) WayDale had a jack and brought it down nicely on Martindale's riz'n and expanded forehead. But I think the reincarnated Greasespot wasn't entirely happy, with WayDale or with itself. This is because new personalities began to express themselves, to "help." Year by year the refinements imposed at the insistence of nit-pickers and "miserable comforters" (an obsequious, manipulative and duplicitous posse of pretenders comes to mind, but they came in abundance) that settled like layers of sediment over the heart and soul of the ex-Way rebellion. Those people would not have gotten far with ex-TWI because his motivation was personal and passionate. But they saw opportunity in Pawtucket's limitations, and his good nature. Neither did those people ever intend to improve Greasespot's reach and power. They wanted rather to control or suppress its individual voices, thereby its spontaneous and living, collective voice - to manage it into submission, so nothing too unpleasant or unsettling to their Way-brained, gum-wrapper fixations would be permitted. Greasespot had to look presentable in the new, polite society they meant to impose. And impose they did. They appear to have succeeded for some time now. -- Post Script - Since Greasespot has outlived it's original usefulness (and the shark has seen better days, too), but found miraculous, new life as a kind of assisted living facility, with lots of supersight and overvision, I think socks' idea is stellar.

There is no such thing as un-lovable, really. How could there be? There is only love-not-remembered. The struggle is with ourselves, not with love. We can always just stop and remember, Roy.

Matilda, happy birthday. Sorry, but I'm not the one with MY birthday so close to the holidays... "Timing?" -- Even though I spiritually accept your triple-dog dare in the spirit in which it was dared, due to the holidays (see above) I must send this rare gift/leg lamp in my stead. It's a classic and a collector's item, so even if you have several others, you'll want more. I know, I know, say no more. It comes in this big crate, which I knew would come in handy. Just a tip, always save original packing materials! My whole family hopes your whole family will really enjoy this, but most of all the birthday girl, because technically it is yours, not theirs.

You know who you are.

If Charlie Manson had a grandchild (and who knows?) maybe Chucky Jr.-the-Third would also be starting his own little club by now. Wonderful! How far, the apples from the tree? Get in on the ground floor folks. There's still time to be an old-timer someday, hailed as one of the few who stood with VPW The Sequel, from the beginning, to be propped up in the amen corner and drooling on your "Emeritus" badge, trying to remember your name and which meeting it is. Woo hoo. You'll have earned the Crown of Licentiousness for sure, or is it the Crown of Lechery? maybe the Crown of Hypocrisy, and even the Crown of Skulduggery, if you're really helpful. When you die, you might get even planted under one of the smaller, honorary fountains. (Let's hope nobody pees in it.) If it's in Mississippi swamp land, your carcass might get to be re-planted every time there's a big rain. What fun! How to apply? You can start by donating a potty and a plumber to S.E.W.E.R.S. (See Help Wanted). Remember, there's only one first flush.

Charisma comes from the word charis meaning "gift." 1 : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader) 2 : a special magnetic charm or appeal <the charisma of a popular actor> Charade comes from the French word charrado which means to chatter 1: a word represented in riddling verse or by picture, tableau, or dramatic action 2 (plural): a game in which some of the players try to guess a word or phrase from the actions of another player who may not speak 3: an empty or deceptive act or pretense <his concern was a charade> Placing the words together, we get "charismatic charade," the spectacle of which quickly gels and then calcifies into the emotional sheet-rock (not bedrock, but plenty of sheet) upon which the society to promote and preserve a paltry, emotional fraud that passes for religion rises in its own glory. We see the action, not of a God, or of a Son of God, but of an impotent, whether by incapacity or indecision, cartoon character, whose power and love are so discriminating and fickle, the girl nearly dies again and again. I do not see her pray, maybe she does. I see her thrown down, and that's where he rushes in to save the day. First he lets them beat him up, and when he gets tired of that, he tosses them off like they were made of straw. And they are - straw men. False enemies, revealed not by God, or by any real Jesus, but by the servants of a tumescent cult that lives and breathes and passes the hat in His name. It's my unscientifically deduced belief that anyone with an authentic spiritual relationship, with an authentic Jesus, would be offended by this garbage, that preys on our sentimentality at best, and our broken hearts at its calculated worst, priming our minds for the vast, blind crusade that wanders the world in search of the God that embodies THEIR concept of who He ought to be. The Way International wasn't so different than so many others. Modern religion is nothing but charismatic chatter, without the charis, and without the answers. So what am I trying to say? Like the man from Jubbalpore, "I don't believe in your Jesus." Though I don't count myself one, I think there are no truer words that might be spoken by every "true" Christian.

He takes no prisoners, does he? Far be it from me to bash anyone's 2000-odd year old cult, but he makes some strong points on the side of not believing something just because you were raised that way, or because someone takes the time (how loving!) to persuade you into joining them. And he makes it look easy. Christopher Hitchens is a breath of fresh air. Always listen critically. He's looking for equals, not converts.

Christopher Hitchens -- on the blessings of faith. Hitchens

Not really. http://fora.tv/ Just some good internet TV to get through the writers' strike. Liberals will be especially pleased. They will enjoy the psychoanalysis of Walker, Texas Wanger. (W). Whether it's based on any facts should be irrelevant to this occasion, as always. Conservatives will despise Justin Frank, as it should be, whatever they think of Bush. I won't be discussing it (here). For conservatives, there is Christopher Hitchens, maybe a few others. Hitchens is that atheist who wrote God Is Not Great, so maybe there's nothing at all for you right-wing fundamentalists. There's always Michelle Malkin's blog. "To a man with only a hammer, every problem is a nail." Really? Only someone who doesn't know one end of a hammer from the other would say something that dumb. Believe it or not, they are out there, and they are thankful for their God-given intelligence. Talk about faith without works... Okay, what else? "Be fruitful and multiply." That should do it.