John M Knapp LMSW

Hi, guys,

I canceled the webinar because of lack of attendance.

We actually rescheduled it and made it a free event, taking into account much of the good feedback I received from GSC readers. But too few people registered to make for a successful event in which I hoped attendees would share experiences and ask questions of presenters.

It may be that I did not promote the event in the best way. Perhaps I offended some people. It could be that the technology is too new for potential attendees to trust. Or perhaps there are simply not enough people interested in this subject.

Any feedback from the community that might point me in the right direction would be much appreciated.

I am planning on making YouTube videos of Joe's and my presentations -- as well as Pawtucket's, if he is interested.

I also am starting a free newsletter on recovery that I am hoping people will find useful. I have about 100 subscribers so far. If you or someone you know might be interested, please contact me at jmknapp53@gmail.com.

A further note: For the most part, I'm thinking that I will not post to GSC in the future. I chose my career as a psychotherapist, after years in this field with Trancenet.net and TranceChat, to help people. My impression is that my presence at GSC stirs hurtful feelings for some people here.

The last thing I want to do is cause pain for people I hope to help!!! And I sincerely apologize to anyone whom I have offended.

Therapy is not necessary for most people who have left a cult. Many people are stronger for the experience. It's my hope that those individuals who do feel their recovery is blocked and would like to explore therapy will find a professional with whom they feel comfortable -- whether me or one of the other fine professionals in this field.

So thanks to everyone for their input! I am taking it to heart and acting on it.

J.

Hi John,

Thanks for your thoughts and explanations. I do think it would be beneficial to many on this thread if you posted a little regarding your approach, or even if you post hyperlinks to your own website where you explain your approach. It's good to get to know a little of your background, experience and work. That type of thing goes a long way to alleviate concerns.

chockfull

Hi, chockfull,

A basic overview to how I practice with cult members is at http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cults.html and http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cultdefine.html.

But the short version is that I focus on recovery rather than "cult exit counseling." By that I mean, I work with individuals who have already left their group but are still experiencing cult-related difficulties -- sometimes years or decades later. Exit counselors offer information that may influence someone to leave a toxic group. It may be that a family arranges for an "intervention" in which a current cult member is faced with information about the group they are in, with an eye toward convincing them they should leave. Or in some cases, cult members seek out an exit counselor to help them leave the toxic group gracefully.

That's not what I do.

I work with my client to explore their strengths and how to apply them to recovery. Anyone who has survived and left a toxic group must have unique strengths. Examples might be courage or independent thinking as shown by leaving. But strengths may go much deeper: compassion, idealism, openness, and many others. I have a list of strengths that former cult members demonstrate at http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cultstrengths.html.

To some degree I follow a general outline in working with former members, although there is wide variation depending on the needs of each individual.

I use a "brief therapy" model. That means we start planning for the termination of therapy from the first session. My general goal is to work with a client no more than 12 sessions -- although I have worked with some individuals much longer, depending on the nature and difficulty of the challenges facing an individual.

My general outline is to spend 3 to 4 sessions reviewing the cultic processes that were used in one's group. I do this for three reasons: first, the more you know about cultic manipulation, the less likely one will fall for it in the future. Second, if you can see the intentional manipulation of your group, you may stop blaming yourself for "falling for" your cult's influence -- which can block recovery. Most people I work with tend to blame themselves. Which brings up the third reason I educate on cultic processes: Usually in reviewing cult beliefs and practices, we discover a number of beliefs taught by the group that still linger long after leaving -- and contribute to suffering in the here and now. An example is all-or-nothing thinking that leads often to a former member experiencing crippling perfectionism: "Nothing I do is good enough, so why should I try?" (This certainly doesn't happen for everyone, but it is an example that many people report.)

In the second phase, about 4 to 6 sessions, I use "cognitive therapy" to help former members to identify beliefs that linger after leaving the group and to challenge those beliefs. I use techniques found in "Mind Over Mood" and "Feeling Good," among other books. Generally this is the phase in which former members feel the most relief.

Finally, we work on balancing one's life after leaving the cult. I find this is the most important task a former cult member faces. Our toxic groups were everything to us: They influenced every aspect of our lives, from beliefs, to diet, to choice of life partners, and so forth. Many people leaving a toxic group replace one "obsession" with another. They may become workaholics, find a new church or cause, bury themselves in intense relationships, or otherwise focus on one aspect of their lives while neglecting others. People who successfully balance their lives are much less likely to be overwhelmed by pain -- which can be a trigger for returning to your toxic group or finding another to fill the hole.

There's a lot more to say, but I hope this gives you some idea of how I work. Feel free to ask questions or raise concerns!

J.

sowwy, heard he was invited and declined

Acutally, ex, he accepted, but dropped out for reasons he never shared with me. We worked for a few weeks together, and then I stopped hearing from him. I'm not sure why.

J.

John said:

I probably wasn't clear about why I included that quote. The reason I did was because you have a “cult recovery expert” on your panel, and it seems to me that they tend to see brainwashing behind every bush (sorta like twi saw a devil spirit under every rock).

I didn’t mean to imply or assume that you’re one of the “mind control” proponents. It appears, however, that your third panelist is.

I hope you don't think we're trying to give you a hard time. I was concerned so I felt the need to say so. I'm sure you understand that many of us spent too many years keeping quiet when we had questions and doubts. Maybe that's why we so readily voice them today. :)

I hope people get a lot out of your Webinar if they choose to participate. I also hope you'll keep a leash on that "cult recovery expert."

Hey, Linda,

You're not being hard! I believe if you have a concern, it's courageous of you to voice it. Most people don't take the time. And it educates me as well as giving me an opportunity to explain.

And, most important, I think being cautious is an important part of recovery. Most of us just don't want to get involved in another high-demand or cultic situation. Using our experiences in our cult, which usually leads to caution about new "causes," is really turning a bad thing into a good thing.

So, anyway, thanks for voicing your concerns!

J.

brainfixed, what you said here:

...really made me smile. That's terrific.

Waysider:

I have thought about it. I'm quite sure an ex-Scientologist could help an exwayfer and vice versa; the method of helping is what I question. I don't think the "mind control" explanation for everything that ever happened to anyone in a controlling religious group or a non-mainstream church or Amway or anything else is a valid one. I think indoctrination is a more accurate description than mind control. How people choose to "un-indocrinate" themselves and how far is a personal choice.

IMO, to blame mind control for the choices we made prevents us from ever honestly examining our own role in some of the paths we took and keeps us from looking at why we made those decisions.

Edited to add: I don't mean to say that every bad thing that happened to anyone in twi was because of their own decisions. Not at all. But learning where our vulnerabilties are/were (our own individual frailties...not some cookie-cutter image of a "cult victim") can go a long way in preventing us from being taken advantage of or made to feel like pond scum ever again.

Hi, Linda Z,

I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems as if you are assuming things about how I practice and what I believe. I do not use the "mind control model" in my work. Nor do I have a cookie-cutter approach to recovery. Every person I work with finds their own route to recovery. That in itself is an important recovery process. It would be a mistake to replace one system with another, no matter how well intentioned.

If I can help by saying more about my views on "mind control" or whatever, I'd be happy to discuss this.

J.

Paw, you probably won't like what I'm about to say, but I feel the need to say it. I think your intentions are good and probably John's are, too. But I'm a little concerned about this Webinar thing.

I get the impression that people who have talked on here about the benefits they've received from therapy participated in one-on-one therapy. I believe that for those who need help regaining their confidence and/or their bearings, that can be a good way to go.

What concerns me about an "anti-cult" Webinar, with no face-to-face contact, involving a group as large as 85 people, is two things: First, some people probably need intensive, individualized therapy with a good psychologist or psychiatrist. Second, anything short of that could quite easily feed a vulnerable person's tendency to simply exhange one brand of indoctrination for another, one set of authority figures for another.

It's Pawtucket's site, and he can allow what he wants to allow. If he wants GSC to be one of several ex-cult groups used to advertise the services of a therapist and a "cult recovery specialtist," that's his choice and his privilege. Frankly, I don't know why a trained, licensed therapist has to drum up business that way, instead of the usual advertising, referrals, and word-of-mouth. Maybe it's because it's more of a cause than a business venture. The fact that one of the presenters is a "cult recovery specialist" tells me it's a cause, a crusade. I was wary of those before twi, and now I'm even more wary.

$25 isn't much money, and I have no beef with anyone offsetting the costs of putting on a Webinar and making a few bucks. All I know is that when the companies I deal with put on Webinars, it's for one purpose and one purpose only: to drum up business; or in this case, maybe to drum up more adherents to the cause.

And to those participating in this Webinar, please remember that just as something wasn't true just because a twi hot shot said it, nothing is true just because any other "expert" says it, either. If this thing appeals to you, then get whatever benefit you can out of it, but don't forget to buckle on those thinking (for yourself) caps. :)

Hi, Linda,

There are a variety of therapy modalities, including individual, group, and family therapy. Different people find different modalities useful. There are advantages to each.

This seminar will not be therapy. It's more informative and exploratory. We panelists will each present our information and experience and take questions and input from the attendees. It's much like going to a seminar on substance abuse. You wouldn't expect to receive therapy going to a conference or seminar. This is similar. The only real difference is the use of the Internet for our presentation. I believe that this is valuable because so many people who seek help in cult recovery do not have someone with experience within driving distance. And in these economic times, the idea of creating a conference that people must travel to seems like a nonstarter.

Critical thinking is an important part of cult recovery. Both in my private practice and in the upcoming web seminar, I will take pains to say that you are the experts about you. It is possible in hearing a variety of techniques that have worked for others you may find things that you'd like to try in your life as well. It's not the case that we will be pushing a one-size-fits-all program. In fact, it's probably good for you to know that we 3 panelists each have different approaches to our work. It could be attendees will learn the most from us disagreeing! Discussion is always good!

As to "drumming up business," my clients usually come from areas in which there is no local counselor available with experience in cults. A fair number of my clients are referred by others, but some people simply have no idea where to turn if they seek help. It is hard to reach these people.

I have no interest in forcing any form of counseling or education down anyone's throat. Some people are interested in this kind of work, many are not. Everyone has to find their own answers. But being exposed to a variety of viewpoints can really speed that process for some people.

Seminars like this are certainly not rare on a variety of issues. They are not intended to be therapy. But many find value in them. To my knowledge, this is the first web seminar on this particular topic, but I believe there is a future in using web technology in reaching a wider audience -- one that cannot afford to travel to a traditional, hotel-based conference.

I don't know if I answered everything you raised, Linda Z, but if you have additional questions or concerns, I'll try to answer them.

J.

Maybe I was too nice.

I did a little Googling after I made my earlier post.

Here are some links to articles about "cult recovery specialist" Joe Szhimhart.

http://info_3.tripod.com/cultaware_unzipped/cases2.html

http://www.cesnur.org/2001/CAN/appendix_A.htm

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34495.html

The quote below is from the third article, about the surge in "cult experts" coming forward after the Heaven's Gate suicides (my emphasis added):

"Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman, authors of Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change, were interviewed by everyone from Reuters to *Rivera*, despite the fact that, by their own admission, they had no idea what this Heaven's Gate group was. Their expertise lay not in knowledge about this cult, but in their theory of how cultic "mind control" works. This theory, a variation on the long-discredited notion that cult members are incapable of free choice, did not add much to anyone's understanding of the tragedy."

Bingo! One-size-fits-all solutions. Fool me once....

Hi, Linda Z,

Thanks for doing the research and raising your concerns.

The reason we have 3 panelists for the web seminar, and not 1, is because there are many approaches to cult recovery. In my mind, there are strengths and weaknesses to all the approaches.

As to Conway and Siegelman, they are not involved in the seminar. Nor is their thinking reflected in the presentation.

For myself, I have never subscribed to the idea that cult members are incapable of free choice. For that matter, I do not subscribe to the idea of cult "brainwashing" -- although many in my field do.

It would be a mistake to assume that everyone who works in this field has the same viewpoints. As best I can, I reveal my philosophy, methods, charges, and more at my web site.

It is true that this is a cause for me. But that is certainly not unusual in the psychotherapeutic field. Most counselors you will work with will have been touched by mental illness in their circle of family and friends. Similarly, most substance abuse counselors are themselves in recovery, and many rape or DV counselors have personal experience as well.

Just as when I founded Trancechat, trancenet.net, and No Way Out, my focus is on helping others who have been traumatized as I have been. It's my attempt to turn a very bad thing into a good thing. It is still true that much of my work is available for free on my web sites or via informal counseling over the phone or in email.

But I turned "pro" so that I could devote even more time to helping others. Not to proselytize them into adopting a new cause. I've been working in this field for pushing 15 years and have never had "followers" or started an organization. I imagine if I had thought that was appropriate, I could have started an organization a number of times. But I, too, am concerned that vulnerable people could easily be sucked into another "save the world" movement. Fearing the negative impact of that on the people I work with, I chose not to go down that route. I think I've made the right choice.

I don't know if I answered your concerns. But if you have more thoughts or questions, I'd be happy to try and answer them.

J.

Thank you, John.

As you'll have read, there is no small suspicion among ex-Way people. We got sucked (suckered?) into a class that didn't cost much, and have ended up with all sorts of problems.

Doojable makes the point about "one more wonder class."

I believe you do want to try and help people; you know what cult indoctrination can do!

Certainly if there are (reasonable) expenses in putting something on, there should be recoupment of the expenses. But - advertising? (posts at GSC don't cost.)

I also appreciate that preparation takes time and that takes away from earning capacity. Paw, I know, manages this site in his spare (spare? ha!) time and if that were worked out at an hourly rate would probably be about half a cent a week and who could begrudge a little income there?

As a professional, I charge for my professional advice.

As a Christian, as a friend, as a listening ear, as a person showing compassion - I find I put my hand in my pocket, not my hand in the other person's pocket.

And somewhere in between is "mate's rates." Which is still a professional thing.

Hi, Twinky,

Thanks for voicing your concerns.

The advertising costs I mention are not for GSC. I am paying for Google search ads, as well as Yahoo. GSC was the only forum I posted my notice because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought it would prove of interest to some people here. I didn't foresee the reaction it might cause, as I had posted here in the past to generally positive responses.

The last thing in the world I want to do is cause pain for anyone here. I'm in this profession, which does not pay well, because of my own heart's passion. I was a member in my own cult for 23 years. I worked as an unpaid lay counselor for many years. (Some here may remember Trancechat, trancenet.net, and specifically, No Way Out.)

A large part of my work remains free. I have megabytes of self-help information at my web site, and I still do informal counseling for many, many emailers. Even in this endeavor, I have set aside 15% of the possible seats for scholarships for people who simply cannot afford even $25.

I understand caution or even suspicion. I've been there! It is in many ways a sign of health, after the kind of involvement most of us experienced in our respective groups.

As best I can, I am trying to answer people's concerns here without feeding into more suspicion. I'm finding it a pretty difficult tightrope to walk!

By the way, it was never my intention to claim this is a "wonder course." It's simply a seminar on some problems that some people experience. While there will be techniques and information that will be useful for recovery and ample opportunity for questions and answers, to my knowledge there is no "miracle cure" for the challenges that many of us recovering from cultic abuse share. But there are many techniques that people have found useful.

There is no single "cure" for our problems. Recovery, for those that have experienced significant trauma, takes real work. It doesn't necessarily include working with a therapist. As I wrote above, I think most people recover without help or some self-help on sites like this.

But some people do seek more, whether they are seeking a faster recovery or have tried self-help and found it wasn't enough for them. I really only wanted to attract the interest of these people.

I've done my best not to proselytize, but simply offer an option that some people may take advantage of, even if most others do not.

I would like to salvage my sincere offer of help -- only to those that are interested. If any member here could suggest something I could share that would smooth the waters, I would certainly take that suggestion to heart.

J.

From my perspective, clinical psychology does offer genuine help in recovery from groups like TWI. Whether it is identifying characteristics of groups that commonly cause psychological trauma, identifying external resources for additional help, or mental and emotional viewpoints or exercises that help people move on, all can potentially have a benefit. It may not be necessary that the individual has specific TWI experience. For example, the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is a book written by a couple of people involved in starting and running a small community church. Yet parallels abound that specifically apply to TWI.

With respect to the profession and offering it here, I would suggest that John is only doing target marketing for his services. He is doing marketing here, and he is selling a service. On a forum that is more or less dedicated to recovery from and discussion of an abusive group I would suggest that it is nothing more or less than target marketing. He is making a step towards people on this forum in this fashion. Yes it is true he doesn't post here regularly, so his commitment level towards understanding TWI specifically and the details of it and recovery is unknown at this time. I'm sure as with any profession, the more detailed his understanding of TWI is the better the help will be.

I don't think target marketing should be understood as anything different than what it is - offering a service to a market segment. In this field, like in accident injury cases (someone mentioned ambulance chaser lawyers) the market segment is hurt or injured people. So only an individual's personal ethics can determine what genuinely is the difference between caring about people in detail in offering a service and being a businessman first who cares less. The end product, or "fruit" becomes evident with time.

If we as a community want to preseve this forum as more of a pure "self-help" type, we could request to Paw that it be advertisement free, or construct another forum subsection that is dedicated to that type of thing. Until then I would suggest just viewing this thread as an advertisement thread that may or may not pertain to individuals.

Hi, chockfull,

Thanks for your thoughts. I thought you might like to know that I stopped marketing on forums some months ago. I took people's input to heart. I posted this notice here only after asking Pawtucket for approval. Why did I make an exception in posting this here? Only because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought some forum members would find it interesting for that reason.

While many therapists advertise, both in print and in google search, I've taken to heart the input of members of several self-help forums. I didn't foresee the sensitivity of forum members to my posts. For this I apologize.

It's important to me that forum members see this as my mistake. It certainly was not Pawtucket's mistake!

J.

Doesn't anyone read the thread? John screwed up in his posting of the URL, and I re-did it, so folks could get to his site, and get registered in this web-cam thing. Seems like one person ONLY took the time to click on what I posted, and got right through. John might be a competent counselor, but (imo) he has some serious LACK of social skills when it comes to thanking someone (anyone) who fixes a link for him to recoup his investment of $700.00 to do this seminar, since he was online here AFTER I did that for him.

Dot -- I re-did that link so you could get into it, with no problems. Did you click on it?? I guess not, eh? Potato did.

No matter. If he makes a living counseling on the web, he should try to get (at least) his links right.

And --- have a bit of common courtesy when it comes to re-couping his "investment". He can do neither.

Have fun, who ever decides to join this "conference".

Hi, dmiller,

My apologies. I must have scanned the posts too quickly and missed your post with the fixed links. Of course, I thank you for correcting my error!

J.

At risk of sounding a real pain ...

Why is there a fee of $25?

Who gets it, and why?

Wasn't it paying fees for - what? - that got us into this mess in the first place?

Is this seminar really entitled, "Power for Abundant LEAVING"?

I know John is a professional but so also are many other posters at this site, and ultimately the Cafe is a "self-help" site.

Hi, Twinky,

You're not a pain. You're raising valid questions. Renting the webinar service, WebEx, is fairly expensive and there are other expenses involved, including advertising. I've budgeted about $700 for this event. So the first 30 attendees who pay $25 will be just covering expenses.

If there is any money after that, we three presenters will split it evenly. You may not realize it, but there are dozens of hours of preparation involved, including training on the software, preparing the presentations, much more than just the 2 hours of the presentation. If we had full capacity of 85 attendees, we would make a few hundred dollars each. The highest possible income wouldn't really compensate for the time involved.

The question "why" is one I've answered a number of times, but I'll give you the short version. In our culture in America, even helping professionals have to charge fees in order to cover our education, rent & utilities, and for money to live on. This is true for doctors, nurses, and even lowly psychotherapists.

I don't mean to suggest that people posting here NEED help. As I've written a number of times, many if not most people leaving a toxic group like TWI do not seek help and are happy with their lives. Others do some self-help, such as reading books or becoming part of a self-help community such as GSC, and again are happy with their lives. People like this do not need any kind of professional help.

However, some people work very hard at their recovery and despite their best efforts find that their life is still not working for them. Some of these people may choose to seek professional help in the form of a seminar, conference, group therapy, individual therapy, or similar things.

Just to repeat, we are making 15 scholarships available for people who can't afford even $25. One person has already taken advantage of this. I'd be surprised if we didn't end up filling all 15 scholarship slots. We really are trying to make this available to anyone who is interested.

It's not my intention to try to convince anyone they need help. But for those who have considered it, they may find the webinar useful.

I certainly didn't mean to reflect on GSC as a self-help site. It may very well be the best such site I've stumbled upon.

Twinky, did I answer your questions?

J.

I love stuff like this. I am game. I don't care who knows I will do it. Just need to check the date.

Can you believe it? I cannot find a calendar. What day of the week please?

Hey, Dot Matrix,

It's taking place on a Saturday afternoon.

You say you can't get on the site. Sounds like I need to fix something. Can you tell me what URL you tried to do to? And what happened?

J.

Can I string the chairs, or "stretch" the coffee?

sorry, couldn't resist..

I think healing my spiritual wounds.. I've managed to fulfill at least part of my dreams of what *perhaps* would have been without the distractions of da way..

Hi, Ham,

The chairs are covered -- but the coffee is a cool idea! How could we do cybercoffee -- in celebration of the GSC connection?

J.

Just wondering, on the sign up page you are requiring the participant's name, how confindential will the seminar participant's names be, and how are you accepting payment?  Are you accepting Paypal?

Hi, Now I See,

That's a good point. I should have included a note in my post: You can use any screen handle you like for your "name." To remain anonymous, I suggest using a handle that you haven't used elsewhere on the Internet.

J.

On May 16 at 1 pm EDT, I will host a web seminar: "Healing Your Spiritual Wounds: Help with Recovery from a Toxic Group, Abusive Church, or Cult."

Presenters include Joe Szimhart, cult recovery specialist since 1980, author, former New Age cult member; Pawtucket, founder, Greasespot Cafe forum for former members of The Way International; and me, John M. Knapp, LMSW, therapist, have counseled 2000 former members, former Transcendental Meditation teacher.

While not exclusively about The Way International, Pawtucket will speak extensively about his own group involvement and recovery.

The seminar is specifically designed for former toxic group members who have exited their group, but are looking for ways to speed their recovery. We have kept the course fee as low as possible, $25, and there are limited free scholarships available.

Note: To maintain anonymity, I suggest you enter a handle in the name field and that you use a handle that you have never used on the Internet.

For more details, click http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/woundswebinar.html]here. To register, click here.

J.

Thanks for caring about Cult Awareness John.

Thanks for your words of encouragement, cheranne! It makes my work a pleasure.

J.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but are those phone calls from this site, or from the Mochat site

(where you posted the identical *request for help*)???

And --- have you also posted this on other sites as well??

I'm supposing that this will mean money in your pocket, while dispensing advice to *toxic cultists*.

Will there be any monetary remuneration to those who decide to participate? Eh?

Given my past experience in twi (and splinters thereafter),

I'm extremely leery of anyone who encourages me to *open up*,

and expect to make a living off of it.

No offense meant --- but this comes cross as a *shameless plug* to make some cash off of other's stories. (imo)

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, and if so --- I apologize. Call what I've got a *gut feeling*.

Well, dmiller, you're certainly not being a jerk. I'm glad you asking your questions and raising your concerns. If you wonder, probably others do as well, but did not choose to post. So, thanks for taking the time to ask!

I've gotten two contacts from this site, and others from other sites. I did post this on a few forums. I don't know if you bumped into this before or not, but authors seeking interviews in the mental health and recovery area is a very common practice. It just may not have happened here before.

To answer your question, no I would not be reimbursing individuals who take part. This is not the practice in this field, and if you think about it, it might call into question the nature of their testimony.

Some people enjoy sharing their experiences, challenges, and insights. Some don't. It's my hope that if this is not your thing, you just skip the message.

I understand your caution about opening up your story to anyone. A number of people who have worked with me have certainly quizzed me pretty directly on this topic. I think everyone who has had their trust betrayed SHOULD be cautious!

I do my best to offer reassuring material on my website. (The largest part of which is free self-help articles, particularly on cult recovery.) I am also a licensed professional who would lose his license if I were taking advantage of anybody.

As far as making cash off other stories, you may not realize this, but the kind of self-help book I am writing probably will only cover the expenses of producing it. It's not generally a way to make one's living. (There are some notable exceptions, but certainly not in the very small cult recovery world.)

The other point is that a self-help book is largely about reaching people who do not need or prefer not to engage in therapy. So in that way, I am not seeking new clients through a self-help book -- I'm trying to tell people that many can do this for themselves. I'm trying to put myself out of business!

I urge anyone who feels any discomfort about sharing your story, even anonymized, not consider contacting me. But if you feel getting your story out might help other people, I hope you will consider contacting me.

No need for apologies, dmiller! I thought your concerns were valid and your way of putting your questions quite respectful. I'm really glad you chose to ask them publicly!

J.

what is the book going to be called?

Hi, cheranne,

The working title is "Healing Your Spiritual Wounds: How You Can Recover from a Toxic Group, Abusive Church, or Cult." I'm sure it will change before publication -- should I be so lucky as to be published.

By the way, the bulk of the material that will appear in the book is already available to the public for free at my website. I'm seeking to have it published because the promotion that a publishing company can offer means I'll be able to reach many more people with my message than otherwise.

I'll be very lucky to earn enough money to cover the expenses of writing the book!

J.

I've already begun receiving phone calls. Thanks so much to this community for responding quickly to my request for help!

J.

I am looking for members of any toxic group, but particularly TWI and abusive Christian Churches, to interview for two upcoming web events and a book that I am writing.

You may specify that your interview be kept anonymous or not, as you choose.

All that's required is a broadband connection, as well as access to a web cam and microphone. The interviews themselves would likely be less than 1/2 hour.

If you have contributions to the following topics, please consider contacting me at jmknapp53@gmail.com or calling me directly at 518.651.6490. We will schedule the interview at your convenience.

You could really make a difference in someone's life by investing just 30 minutes!

Interview Topics

• What has helped you the most in recovering from toxic-group-related trauma?
  <li>Have you noticed marked improvement in your life since leaving your toxic group?
  
• What problems continue for you — even after leaving your toxic group?
  
• Have you noticed — or wondered about — any side-effects from meditation, prayer, or speaking in tongues, such as "spacing out," forgetting what you are talking about in mid-conversation, involuntary meditative states, or the like
  
• Did you have any children practicing meditation or speaking in tongues in the past? Did they enjoy it? Did you notice any questionable side effects?
  
• Do you have strong feelings about teaching meditation, prayer, or similar practices in schools? Is this a church-and-state issue for you?
  

I'm sure other topics will come up in our conversation! Thanks for considering this. Feel free to share your questions or concerns by email or replies to this post.

J.

John M. Knapp, LMSW

Recovery from Toxic Groups, Abusive Churches & Cults

KnappFamilyCounseling.com

There are different needs, and "viability" levels, for different audiences at GSC, I think.

I can think of a number of different audiences with different levels of needs from GSC: At the least newcomers, exploring leaving TWI, newly left TWI, people who are successfully out, people who are still challenged by pain or dysfunction, people looking for social connection, people actively looking for recovery resources, and the old-timers here who have heard it all before.

I think it would be good for admins to prioritize the audiences they want to reach. Perhaps follow up with polls for each audience to target their needs. This process might make the viability question, and its answer, clearer.

Just a thought.

J.

Just a thought from a (mostly) lurker:

I would hate to see this forum go away. I hope that Pawtucket can find some to help share the burden.

GSC is a lively, complex, wonderful forum. I learn so much just lurking.

I'd be willing to help keep the forum going, if there is some way I can help.

J.

Just a last, quick note about the upcoming group: It starts next Wednesday night, 01/07/09 at 8 pm EST. I need to hear from you quickly if you've been thinking about taking part.

I have a post ready to go for GSC on "Missing the Cult." Will post later tonight.

J.

Read your blogs and the comments afterwards. Some neat comments.

You have a lot to give, John. Whatever made you effective in TM will make you effective now. Only much more so.

(I echo my post 76.)

Thanks, Twinky! What neat way to look at it.

J.

You post on DailyKos? Mon Dieu!

:(

Mais oui! I'll post where they'll have me. And dKos is about the largest blog audience out there.

There's a strong libertarian streak on dKos. Talking about psychological freedoms fits in. I don't know other political blogs where my message would fit in.

I'm concerned about faith-based initiatives, too. I may post on dKos about that. Faith-based initiatives may support the corner church. But Scientology wants some of that money, too. I have a problem with that.

OperaBuff, if you know of conservative or other blogs that might be open to a message about recovery from cults, I'd love to hear about them!

J.

dear john k., i liked you so much before

now i like you even more

(((((((( many hugs )))))))

you're a good soul

Back at ya! (((((excathedra)))))

J.

Hi John and you are welcome,

For me it just makes it plain that you've practiced what you preach.

I think you getting your gumption up for that post was a very good thing.

JEFF

Thanks, Jeff, you honor me!

J.

Wow John,

From your first post that I read it seemed to me that you had a pretty good handle on these relationship issues that you discuss.

Now I know why.

Thank you for sharing.

JEFF

(edited for grammar)

Thanks Jeff and everybody for the kind words.

It took me screwing up my courage to post this. I'm presenting myself as a professional. Admitting to these kinds of problems could lead some to say, "He's crazy as a coot. What could I possibly learn from him?"

It's my hope, however, that people will read this stuff and say, "He was pretty crazy. But he's doing alright now. Maybe I could learn THAT from him."

I'm living proof that recovery can happen -- even for bad cases like me.

Change can happen at any moment. There's always hope!

J.

cman,

Tonight I posted a diary on DailyKos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/8/20.../454/365/670873 .

This is as close as I've ever come to telling my own story:

Today, I am a psychotherapist specializing in recovery from toxic groups, abusive churches, and cults. But I spent 23 years in my own cultic relationship with the Transcendental Meditation Organization.

I was 18, a freshman in college when I attended my first introductory lecture on TM. I thought from the poster that the leader, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, would be there. Instead, there was just "Mark," a 20-something, clean-shaven guy in a blue, three-piece suit and red tie.

He cut quite a discordant figure back in 1971, among the sea of blue jeans, beards, and long hair.

Mark promised me better memory, increased intelligence, and better grades for a one-time fee of $25. He stated, in answer to an audience question, that TM would lead to enlightenment in 5 to 7 years. He mentioned then-current scientific research that he said proved his claims.

Sounded like a deal. I signed up.

Within 5 years, I was living on a TM compound, working for $25 a month on the TM Movement's "Age of Enlightenment Press." Eating exclusively a low-protein, zucchini-and-rice diet. Working up to 36 hours in a shift. Not allowed to read the news. Having to ask permission to leave the compound. Faced with being required to sign a life-time contract working for the TM Organization or face expulsion from the compound.

Yeah, I know. I should have walked out. You probably wonder why I stayed for 18 more years.

How do I define a "cult"? To be honest, as a psychotherapist, I do not concern myself overly much with defining which groups are cultic and which are not. I focus on "cultic relationships." I define a cultic relationship as a relationship between any group and an individual in which the individual experiences such high-intensity demands on time and resources that he or she experiences dysfunction in one or more core life areas: relationships, career, finances, community, physical or emotional well-being, spirituality.

There is no question I had a cultic relationship with TM.

Is it a cult? That's something for each individual to decide.

One of the first exercises I ask my clients to do is a list of losses from their group: things they lost in the group, things they lost after leaving the group, and "opportunity costs" — opportunities that they missed because of group involvement.

Somehow despite my 14 years of cult recovery activism, I've never completed the exercise for myself.

There's no time like the present. So here I go:

I gave TM 23 years of my life. During the 15 years or so of my deepest involvement as a TM Teacher ("Governor"), I saw my family fewer than 5 times. We were encouraged to believe that our families were "too stressed" and would "drain our energy" -- bring our consciousness down if they shared the same space with us. God forbid they should touch us! They would slow our spiritual evolution.

I missed all the important family functions, Holidays, the birth of my sister's first son. My father and I never reconciled over significant childhood wounds. He died while I was in the cult.

I gave up well over $100,000 in money paid for advanced meditation courses, Indian medicines, lucky gems, and more guaranteed means to bring Enlightenment.

I gave up my self respect. The Maharishi pressured us to tell outsiders that we were able to literally levitate. He said back in 1978 that we were so close to "hovering" that it would only be a matter of months until it happened. "Be bold!" in our claims, he importuned us in frequent conference calls. Thirty years later and no one has ever levitated, much less hovered.

And my family and friends went from polite curiosity, to disbelief, to sarcastic humor whenever I brought levitating up.

Harder yet were the lies I was encouraged to tell potential meditators. We told them TM was not a religion, even though we paid to have propitious rituals performed on our behalf to Shiva, Ganesh, Lakshmi, and other Hindu gods. We told them our initiation ceremony was not religious even though we made offerings to Shiva and Shakti and worshipped the guru as Shiva. In fact, one TM leader, Charlie Lutes, told us that we were actually offering the soul of the initiate to Shiva.

I thought I was serving a higher good by not "confusing" new initiates with this knowledge.

By the time I left the TM Organization in 1995, I had given up my mind. Once a National Merit Scholar, I had difficulty remembering names and faces -- even of family members. I had frequent lapses of consciousness -- known as "dissociation" -- lasting from minutes to hours, even in the midst of conversations. I picked up an unusual stutter because I so frequently forgot what I was saying as I said it that I was always anxious speaking.

TM members said I was experiencing "bliss." But I knew I had become a total space cadet.

I developed uncontrolled full body spasms. Quietly, TMers referred to these as "kriyas" -- actions caused by a mystical, spiritual force known as "Kundalini." But they just made it dangerous for me to drive -- and embarrassing for me to be in public.

I had delusional beliefs. I can remember telling my mother in all seriousness that I was an incarnation of Vishnu.

There's more. But space is limited. There was no physical abuse. But my mind, of which I had once been so proud, was thoroughly scrambled.

In leaving the Movement, I lost even more. I lost my friends. They shunned me once they knew I had left. I felt shame and guilt in front of my family. I had talked them into learning TM -- even though I knew I was lying to them about the benefits and the religious aspects of TM.

I believed I lost my chance at enlightenment. Perhaps my connection to God. Ultimately, I became so suspicious of spiritual groups and teachings, I would get the heebie-jeebies just going to church with my wife.

I was told I might be cursed to re-incarnate in hell for thousands of life times.

I lost God.

I lost the intensity and sense of purpose I had while in the TM Movement. Working on staff or as a teacher, nearly every waking moment was spent in the pursuit of world peace through Transcendental Meditation. I lost the sense of belonging to a community.

I lost my world.

And I felt I lost my future. My self-esteem was destroyed. I was haunted with doubts that there was nothing wrong with the TM techniques or the Movement, the problem was that there was something wrong with me. After all, I had watched dozens of people drummed out of the Movement when they expressed doubts. And I had joined in ganging up on them, saying they were impure, "stressed," "unstressing," mentally deranged, damaged -- probably too damaged even when they joined the Movement.

I had nightmares from which I might wake screaming several times a week. I shook when in public. I wore full-length coats all the time: I didn't want anyone to see me.

What opportunities did I miss?

I gave up my intended career. I entered college planning on becoming a doctor. But "relative" knowledge was frowned on. All that really mattered was being a knower of the "Absolute." I managed to scrape up an English degree despite volunteering and living at the local TM center. I took the easiest courses I could find so I wouldn't detract from my true career: evolving my consciousness. (Spending money on more courses to attain enlightenment.)

In the workforce, I jumped from job to job -- leaving every time the Maharishi announced a new months-long course guaranteed to save the world from World War III.

But when I got out of TM at 42, there was no going back to pick up an MD.

I didn't marry until 39, when I was already in the process of leaving the Movement. I had made a private vow of celibacy when the Movement asked it of me. It was supposed to lead to higher states of enlightenment.

I gave up my first marriage. No wife should have to go through the messy recovery my first few years after leaving TM. Crippling depression in which I didn't get out of bed for days. Fistfuls of prescribed psychoactive medications. And more meds to counter their side-effects.

I thought I was going crazy. I probably was.

I gave up having children.

Today, after a lot of conscious, emotional work, I have a happy, comfortable, productive, and fulfilling life. I have a family that is a great refuge for me. I live on a farm with 3 chocolate labs, two cats, and two nasty-tempered cockatiels.

I have a career that I am passionate about.

I notice as I read this diary over that I am not mentioning my grief. The main purpose of the Grief Room. I wish I could describe the disconnect I still experience from my emotions. It's so much easier for me to cry or become angry about my clients' experiences.

It's my hope that by reading the unadorned facts, readers can imagine the anger, guilt, shame, and grief I should be feeling.

I'd never allow a client to ask someone else do the emotional work for them. Yet here I am asking that very thing of you.

Forgive me.

There is a good chance that some commenters will express their own positive experiences with TM below. I can readily believe that many, if not most, TMers enjoy their practice. I think meditation is one of nature's miracles.

I've never tried to convince anyone that their feelings and experiences are wrong or don't matter. It's my hope that someday TM practitioners who criticize me for speaking out will be willing to accept that for many people the TM experience is not good.

It could be, if history is any predictor, that some TMers will post that there are always a few disgruntled members of any group. They may even imply or state that I am damaged or downright crazy -- just as I used to do when someone left the TM Movement.

I can only say that I've worked with thousands of former TM members that tell similar stories of the symptoms and disappointments they experienced. If any medication had the kinds of side-effects that former TMers report, it would be yanked from the shelves immediately.

The TM Movement, like many similar toxic groups, is structured like an onion. Most people paid their money, got their mantra, and have only good, incense-drenched memories of their brush with TM. Others took advanced courses. Others went on to become teachers. Some went on staff full-time for the movement. And a very few others went on to enter the inner circle of the Maharishi himself.

At every level, there were new secrets to be held, new lies to be told, and the chance for ever greater damage. The fact that most people had no bad side-effects has little to do with the problems that people at deeper levels experienced. The severity of symptoms seems to vary by intensity of involvement, its duration, and whatever personal vulnerabilities a person had before entering TM.

This diary is rather longer than I intended. I think I will end here. I hoped for more of a cleansing in posting this. But I don't really feel anything.

I will be active in the comments this evening. I'll try to answer any questions people might have. It's possible in reading your questions and responses, I may awaken my deadened feelings.

There's always hope! Change is possible at any moment.

Thanks to Dem in the Heart of Texas for making this possible. And thank you for reading this long diary.